A.Q. Shipley Says 2014 Was Very Hard For HIm

[Superman]

I like Gundy's break down even though I don't always agree with it.  he is very thorough and usually right on the money.

 

Some of the things I don't like.  Look at the piece on Harrison

 

Watch the clip he has of his "best block".  Now Harrison does knock Peko back and that shows his strength (although I think Harrison showed that pop and strength very rarely) but then he is too slow to come off the block to get the LB.  If #57 shot the gap rather than filling and waiting he would have tackled Boom in the backfield for a loss.  Instead he stops in the hole and allows Harrison to get a hand on him.

 

That's it's not Harrison's fault #57 didn't shoot through the hole, once he came of Peko he made the block but there were so many times when his slowness coming off the double caused a sack, pressure or a tackle for a loss.

As a side note on Harrison's worst block clip, Reitz looked really bad as well.

 

I also want to state, that I have no issue if the coach wants to make a change because he thinks there can be improvement.  But when the change is made and the new player proves to be worse than the previous player, I do question that coaches decision making ability and player evaluation skills.  And I'm not necessarily saying it's Pagano, it may have been the oline coach telling him Harrison is ready and there will be some growing pains but there should not be a drop-off.  or maybe it was Grigs coming in and telling him to start Harrison.  But somewhere along the line someone said that it would be better for the team to start Harrison instead of Shipley... and whoever made that decision was wrong in 2014.

 

Nice post.

 

http://gfycat.com/DefinitiveAnchoredAardwolf#

It's a counter run. Doyle is at FB and is running right at the hole that #57 could have filled, but the play was always coming back to the right. Doyle picked up the blitzing safety who was trying to fill the light side of the defense, which is probably why we were running the counter that way to begin with, even though we were unbalanced left. Picked up 13 yards. They ran this play several times that game, and throughout the year, and in the playoff game. I'm not sure that it was Harrison's responsibility to get to the linebacker

 

In context, the reason Gundy used that play is because it highlights Harrison's strength. You say he used it rarely, but IMO, his strength was always on display. He just had poor technique and lost leverage often because of it. In this case, he finishes the play by blocking two linebackers, one with each arm. As you can tell from Gundy's write-up, he feels Harrison's strength is his biggest strength. That play is a good example. 

 

I can agree that Shipley was better than Harrison, but I think that's about mental mistakes and lapses in technique. The plan probably didn't work out the way the staff hoped it would, but their reasoning makes sense. Holding back a guy that they really liked because of a maxed out, average guy like Shipley isn't really best for the team. And even though it was frustrating and lingered for a long time, it's hard to make the argument that having Harrison in cost us any games. 

[21isSuperman]

Aside from snap issues, Harrison was fine. Nothing great himself, but this stuff is out of control. Let the majority of this board tell it, and Harrison doesn't even belong on the practice squad. Even the snap issues are blown out of proportion. 

 

Shipley couldn't pick up an inside blitz. He could hardly identify an inside blitz. The Eagles in particular killed us with inside blitzes all game, and Shipley did nothing about it. He wasn't much better than Harrison at anything, aside from not having snap issues. And obviously, the thinking of the staff was that Harrison could potentially play better than he did. Heaven forbid the staff could act on what they've seen in practice and play the guy they felt had more potential...

I don't know what he must have done in practice, but judging from what I saw in the games, I'd be way more comfortable with Shipley.  The season was quite a long time ago and I don't re-watch film, so I'm just going off my memory here.  But I recall the line as a unit playing far better when Shipley was in than Harrison.  Harrison may be the bigger, stronger player with more potential, but the unit performed better with Shipley, from what I recall.  It's a similar situation to Richardson, in my opinion.  I find it hard to believe that Richardson and Harrison were lighting it up in practice, then just had a bad day on Sunday.  Yet, the coaching staff would continue to give them starts over players who would outperform them

[Superman]

There's no need to be intentionally obtuse. You know exactly why that makes a difference. 

 

Harrison is the only rookie to get a start on his own "merit" and not because the guy above him got injured and there weren't any other choices. 

 

Hugh Thornton started 12 games as a rookie in 2013. Yes, Thomas' injury opened the way, but Thornton wasn't the only option. The staff chose to start him, and stuck with him all season, even when he struggled. They started him ahead of veterans like Linkenbach and Reitz, both of whom were healthy.

 

Harrison probably wouldn't have started in 2014 if not for Holmes' injury, so there's that. And if Holmes had gotten back on track as quickly as the staff expected him to, the switch probably would have been to Holmes, not Harrison.

 

The real point, however, is that there's no expressed preference by this staff not to start rookie linemen.

[Warhorse]

Does it matter? That Shipley has sailed.

 

Bah dum....pisht!

[JPFolks]

Harrison and Holmes may or may not have been worse than Shipley......   but Shipley -- as much I liked him -- had a low ceiling and a limited future.    Holmes and Harrison both have a higher ceiling and the club felt it was time they be given playing time so their future started last year.    The sooner you start, the sooner you get there.

okay... enough of this!  What evidence do you have that the heinously untalented Harrison has a high ceiling? At least once they put Holmes in, he played well.  Why they waited most of the season who knows because Holmes was a healthy scratch several times.  Harrison was, by a VERY large margin, our worst O-Lineman on a bad O-Line overall.  We put Luck's health and future on the line having such a weak and worthless rookie who was clearly not ready (nor did he improve unless you consider he got better hiking the ball than he started out doing, whoopee!) blocking or him and risking losing Luck for the season or worse every time he snapped the ball.  If for no other reason that protecting the most important player in the entire future of the NFL currently, Shipley should have played as the best available option.  It is clear the Holmes was ALSO far superior to Harrison.  It seems to be another case of Grigson wanting to prove how amazing he is by finding UDFA's who become starters and playing them well after it was obvious they were inferior to others, just like he did with Richardson over anyone they could have found off the street frankly.   All to save face and to look like a genius.  It was NOT just people on the boards making this observation, it was the media, ex coaches and gm's and front office people and long time reporters for the Colts and the league.  I didn't hear a single person SUPPORT playing Harrison over Shipley.... Harrison was worthless.  Perhaps one of the worst centers in the entire league last year.  Even if he COULD get better (and we know he couldn't get worse) it didn't justify the risk or the loss of having superior players in there instead.  Let him learn on the practice field.  

[Narcosys]

Lots of bull here.

Games 3 &4 of Ships were blowouts against Pathetic Jags & Tenn.

The quality of the competition was changing from game 5 on.

It worked out fine and the right guy is still on the roster.

A guy with the physical size and skills to compete as the starter at center and who Could also develop into a solid backup/starter at guard.

Ship was below average physically at center and Not the guy you wanted on the game day roster as your backup Guard/center. BYE!

By your logic, Jeff Saturday would never have been given a chance.

[Jason_]

okay... enough of this!  What evidence do you have that the heinously untalented Harrison has a high ceiling? At least once they put Holmes in, he played well.  Why they waited most of the season who knows because Holmes was a healthy scratch several times.  Harrison was, by a VERY large margin, our worst O-Lineman on a bad O-Line overall.  We put Luck's health and future on the line having such a weak and worthless rookie who was clearly not ready (nor did he improve unless you consider he got better hiking the ball than he started out doing, whoopee!) blocking or him and risking losing Luck for the season or worse every time he snapped the ball.  If for no other reason that protecting the most important player in the entire future of the NFL currently, Shipley should have played as the best available option.  It is clear the Holmes was ALSO far superior to Harrison.  It seems to be another case of Grigson wanting to prove how amazing he is by finding UDFA's who become starters and playing them well after it was obvious they were inferior to others, just like he did with Richardson over anyone they could have found off the street frankly.   All to save face and to look like a genius.  It was NOT just people on the boards making this observation, it was the media, ex coaches and gm's and front office people and long time reporters for the Colts and the league.  I didn't hear a single person SUPPORT playing Harrison over Shipley.... Harrison was worthless.  Perhaps one of the worst centers in the entire league last year.  Even if he COULD get better (and we know he couldn't get worse) it didn't justify the risk or the loss of having superior players in there instead.  Let him learn on the practice field.  

 

 

[chad72]

Well, if Shipley produces well as center playing 6 games against the NFC West, I am sure this conversation will be resumed . Only time will tell.

[Coffeedrinker]

Nice post.

 

http://gfycat.com/DefinitiveAnchoredAardwolf#

It's a counter run. Doyle is at FB and is running right at the hole that #57 could have filled, but the play was always coming back to the right. Doyle picked up the blitzing safety who was trying to fill the light side of the defense, which is probably why we were running the counter that way to begin with, even though we were unbalanced left. Picked up 13 yards. They ran this play several times that game, and throughout the year, and in the playoff game. I'm not sure that it was Harrison's responsibility to get to the linebacker

 

In context, the reason Gundy used that play is because it highlights Harrison's strength. You say he used it rarely, but IMO, his strength was always on display. He just had poor technique and lost leverage often because of it. In this case, he finishes the play by blocking two linebackers, one with each arm. As you can tell from Gundy's write-up, he feels Harrison's strength is his biggest strength. That play is a good example. 

 

I can agree that Shipley was better than Harrison, but I think that's about mental mistakes and lapses in technique. The plan probably didn't work out the way the staff hoped it would, but their reasoning makes sense. Holding back a guy that they really liked because of a maxed out, average guy like Shipley isn't really best for the team. And even though it was frustrating and lingered for a long time, it's hard to make the argument that having Harrison in cost us any games. 

Good points.  And maybe I'm wrong about Harrison (I don't think I am but I will watch him closely this preseason).

 

As far as harrison costing the Colts games, it's hard to say because things in an NFL are not linear.  The flip side of that is also true, it's hard to make an argument that Harrison won the Colts any games.  But neither is the point.  Harrison was not ready to start in the NFL.  The decision was made to start him they may have been looking long term, I don't know but for the 2014 season it was a mistake to take Ship out and put in Harrison.  And yes, I realize hindsight is 20/20 but I was the only one on this forum that after Harrison's first start against Baltimore voiced my opinion and he was a downgrade from what Shipley provided.

[Superman]

Well, if Shipley produces well as center playing 6 games against the NFC West, I am sure this conversation will be resumed . Only time will tell.

 

Not many had anything to say about Shipley's bad 2013 in Baltimore...

[Superman]

 

ITT: 

 

[Superman]

Good points.  And maybe I'm wrong about Harrison (I don't think I am but I will watch him closely this preseason).

 

As far as harrison costing the Colts games, it's hard to say because things in an NFL are not linear.  The flip side of that is also true, it's hard to make an argument that Harrison won the Colts any games.  But neither is the point.  Harrison was not ready to start in the NFL.  The decision was made to start him they may have been looking long term, I don't know but for the 2014 season it was a mistake to take Ship out and put in Harrison.  And yes, I realize hindsight is 20/20 but I was the only one on this forum that after Harrison's first start against Baltimore voiced my opinion and he was a downgrade from what Shipley provided.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree. Of course things in the NFL aren't linear, but we lost two games with Harrison starting -- Pittsburgh and New England. I'd like to see the argument that suggests center play would have changed the outcome of either of those games. I can argue that Shipley's poor play made things harder on us in the Eagles game; I wouldn't say that he cost us the game, of course.

 

I'd also like to see the argument that suggests centers "win" games, and we can apply the same standard to Shipley as we do to Harrison. Anyone can make a crucial mistake at the wrong time, or a series of crucial mistakes even, that costs a team a win. The Broncos shot themselves in the foot in the SB with a bad opening snap, for instance. Harrison had a bad snap in the first Texans game that JJ Watt took back for a TD, but Harrison also played a really good overall game (aside from a couple snap issues), and the Colts won.

 

I've never argued that replacing Shipley with Harrison was the right move, or even that I agreed with it. My point of contention is just with the idea that Shipley was so much better, that there was never any reason to think about benching him, etc. I don't think the move negatively impacted the team, and in the long term, Harrison getting so much time will hopefully help him. I just get why they did it, even if I wouldn't necessarily co-sign it, and I think all the angst and whatnot, which gets all the way to 'this staff should be fired,' is well overboard. 

[chad72]

Not many had anything to say about Shipley's bad 2013 in Baltimore...

 

Baltimore went zone blocking under Kubiak starting 2014. They were a man blocking scheme in 2013.

 

What do the Cardinals play? I am thinking more zone blocking schemes based on this.

 

Maybe Shipley would fit ZBS better and since the Cardinals rely on the run to set up the pass more, the pass blocking will end up being more important. That is why I feel we have to see how he does in the Cardinals' ZBS in 2015.

[Superman]

Baltimore went zone blocking under Kubiak starting 2014. They were a man blocking scheme in 2013.

 

What do the Cardinals play? I am thinking more zone blocking schemes based on this.

 

Maybe Shipley would fit ZBS better and since the Cardinals rely on the run to set up the pass more, the pass blocking will end up being more important. That is why I feel we have to see how he does in the Cardinals' ZBS in 2015.

 

Shipley has slow feet, which might make you think he'd be bad in ZBS, but he's also smallish with short arms, so he isn't ideal for MBS either. He's JAG, and he's a super hard worker, a company man, and everyone thinks highly of him and his character, but he's nothing special as a player. 

 

You would think that if he struggled in the Ravens MBS in 2013 (which was similar to our MBS in 2012), that the Ravens might think he'd work better in their 2014 ZBS, but they released him before the season started. Shipley doesn't have an ideal scheme, because he's an undersized scheme tweener who gets by on hard work and desire.

 

I believe the Cardinals play a mix of blocking schemes. They switched back and forth depending on the situation and the back, and they had to use a lot of different backs last season. They were more MBS/power with a lead blocker with Ellington, then went more inside zone with Taylor and Williams at the end of the season. I think with Dwyer and Ellington, they intended to be a MBS/power with pulling guards, and signing Iupati -- one of the best pull blocking guards in the league -- makes me think that's what they intend to get back to in 2015. I guess we'll find out. 

 

Arians is the same guy who wouldn't commit to Shipley in 2012, though.

[NewColtsFan]

okay... enough of this!  What evidence do you have that the heinously untalented Harrison has a high ceiling? At least once they put Holmes in, he played well.  Why they waited most of the season who knows because Holmes was a healthy scratch several times.  Harrison was, by a VERY large margin, our worst O-Lineman on a bad O-Line overall.  We put Luck's health and future on the line having such a weak and worthless rookie who was clearly not ready (nor did he improve unless you consider he got better hiking the ball than he started out doing, whoopee!) blocking or him and risking losing Luck for the season or worse every time he snapped the ball.  If for no other reason that protecting the most important player in the entire future of the NFL currently, Shipley should have played as the best available option.  It is clear the Holmes was ALSO far superior to Harrison.  It seems to be another case of Grigson wanting to prove how amazing he is by finding UDFA's who become starters and playing them well after it was obvious they were inferior to others, just like he did with Richardson over anyone they could have found off the street frankly.   All to save face and to look like a genius.  It was NOT just people on the boards making this observation, it was the media, ex coaches and gm's and front office people and long time reporters for the Colts and the league.  I didn't hear a single person SUPPORT playing Harrison over Shipley.... Harrison was worthless.  Perhaps one of the worst centers in the entire league last year.  Even if he COULD get better (and we know he couldn't get worse) it didn't justify the risk or the loss of having superior players in there instead.  Let him learn on the practice field.  

 

My "evidence" about Harrison is that he's still on the roster and the coaches have stated he's in an off-season battle with Holmes for the starting position.     Shipley was not kept and moved on.

 

I probably should've clarified,  I think it's the coaches who view Harrison as having a higher ceiling.   And their actions speak louder than words.

 

Superman said it best a few years back when fans here were complaining about who the coaches started/played and who got less snaps.....     He said roughly this....  "Why would the coaches deliberately play the inferior player?   The coaches jobs are on the line with winning and losing.   Playing the lesser player can lead to losses.    Playing the better player hopefully leads to wins.  The coaches may be wrong in their assessment,  but they believe they're starting the best players."

 

So, why would the front office not keep Shipley and not only retrain Harrison,  but they announce he's got a shot to start this year?    Because they think he can be much much better than Shipley.      Maybe they're wrong,  but they think they're right and they're around these guys 24/7/365.

[jskinnz]

I long for the days when AQ Shipley is no longer a topic of conversation on this board.  Appreciate his time with Indy but IMO his contribution to the team never matched the level of dialog he brought on here.

 

I do suspect my wish will be fleeting as I suspect the "bring back Shipley" talk begins the moment he gets cut in August. 

[Coffeedrinker]

My "evidence" about Harrison is that he's still on the roster and the coaches have stated he's in an off-season battle with Holmes for the starting position.     Shipley was not kept and moved on.

 

I probably should've clarified,  I think it's the coaches who view Harrison as having a higher ceiling.   And their actions speak louder than words.

 

Superman said it best a few years back when fans here were complaining about who the coaches started/played and who got less snaps.....     He said roughly this....  "Why would the coaches deliberately play the inferior player?   The coaches jobs are on the line with winning and losing.   Playing the lesser player can lead to losses.    Playing the better player hopefully leads to wins.  The coaches may be wrong in their assessment,  but they believe they're starting the best players."

 

So, why would the front office not keep Shipley and not only retrain Harrison,  but they announce he's got a shot to start this year?    Because they think he can be much much better than Shipley.      Maybe they're wrong,  but they think they're right and they're around these guys 24/7/365.

A few points about this:

 

1.  You really have no idea if the coaches think Harrison has a higher ceiling nor can you use the fact that Harrison is still on the roster as evidence.  Harrison is still under contract, Shipley's contract  was done at the end of 2014.  Maybe they the coaches think they have the same ceiling but why sign a guy who will cost more than Harrison?

 

2.  I agree coaches would not deliberately play a less talented player.  But as I mentioned earlier, with the times it has happened, especially along the oline, it does make a fan question their ability to judge player talent.

 

3.  Coaches do have a lot more information than fans but they are not around them 24/7/365.  But even with all that information they do make mistakes.  And maybe the only reason Harrison has a shot at starting is because they feel that he and Holmes have about the same ceiling and they have to do something until next year.

[NewColtsFan]

A few points about this:

 

1.  You really have no idea if the coaches think Harrison has a higher ceiling nor can you use the fact that Harrison is still on the roster as evidence.  Harrison is still under contract, Shipley's contract  was done at the end of 2014.  Maybe they the coaches think they have the same ceiling but why sign a guy who will cost more than Harrison?

 

If the coaches thought enough of Shipley, the team would've retained Shipley.   He wasn't that expensive.   Also,  the coaches sat Shipley last year and played Harrison -- a lot.    And Harrison had his struggles, no doubt.     Finally,   The coaches have had Shipley twice and either traded him or not retained him twice.    Again,  actions speak louder than words.    The staff does not think the two players have the same ceiling.

 

2.  I agree coaches would not deliberately play a less talented player.  But as I mentioned earlier, with the times it has happened, especially along the oline, it does make a fan question their ability to judge player talent.

 

This is an open and fair question.   One that I don't have an answer for -- at least, not yet.   Herriman was said to not have had a good year last year and yet we brought him in, and he looks to be a guy who either is a quality back-up or he could even start.    Again,  goes to judgement of the front office and staff.    And that's all we brought in via Free Agency and the draft (minus Good)

 

3.  Coaches do have a lot more information than fans but they are not around them 24/7/365.  But even with all that information they do make mistakes.  And maybe the only reason Harrison has a shot at starting is because they feel that he and Holmes have about the same ceiling and they have to do something until next year.

 

I knew when I wrote 24/7/365 that it would come back to haunt me, and it did!   My bad.   You're correct.   I was simply trying to say that the staff is around these guys far more than the fans are.    Fans see the games, and that's it.    We don't see the practices,  we don't see the meeting rooms,  we don't see the conditioning/weight room work and so on.    But 24/7/365 was a poor way to say it.   Sorry.    As for Harrison and Holmes, I think it speaks well of him that Holmes seemed to play well the final 5 games of the season and yet Harrison and Holmes are equal as of now.   I think it's clear that Grigson loves Holmes and wants him to work out.    Harrison is a free agent find.   We're all going to find out how good he is in August.   Personally, I'm pulling for Holmes,  but if Harrison beats him out then he must be pretty good.    At least,  that's my hope.

 

[Jdubu]

This is working under the assumption that players can only develop playing in actual games.

If it were Holmes who was replacing him I'd understand better (even though it would have been a terrible decision regardless), but replacing him with a rookie, when you've already expressed your preference to not have rookie starters across the o-line is crazy. Shipley was playing well, and was replaced by a guy who could barely snap the football correctly.

I'm not saying Homes or Harrison were lights out but saying a rookie such as Harrison could barely snap the ball is a bit hyperbole don't you think? All my argument was is that you play youth in games to build up their skills IF you think they have a great ceiling for the future. It appears the team did since they played both Harrison and Holmes and let Shipley, who can we agree is an act NFL center, sit out on the bench.

Players can develop on the practice squad and during offseason and such but the best way to learn is on the job. As long as it's not a consistent gross incompetence on the field and the team feels their is value in taking their lumps, that is a best approach IMO. Harrison started to break down under his first NFL season and played poorly, got replaced by Holmes and now we see a battle in camp this year between the two. If either of them play to expectations this season, the team should be in great shape. If not, we draft a center next season. Imo

[Jdubu]

Harrison and Holmes may or may not have been worse than Shipley...... but Shipley -- as much I liked him -- had a low ceiling and a limited future. Holmes and Harrison both have a higher ceiling and the club felt it was time they be given playing time so their future started last year. The sooner you start, the sooner you get there.

I'm not sure we lost any games because of who we started at center. But this topic continues to get beat to death.

I'm pleased that Shipley was a classy guy and a team player and took one for the team. He was rewarded by signing a deal with Arizona.

If some here don't like our front office and question their ability to judge talent, let's not forget we traded Shipley to Baltimore and the Ravens didn't do much with him either. Did he play there a year? And then they let him go. Maybe Shipley is not what some here think he is....

Excellent post. Great points.

[Superman]

A few points about this:

 

1.  You really have no idea if the coaches think Harrison has a higher ceiling nor can you use the fact that Harrison is still on the roster as evidence.  Harrison is still under contract, Shipley's contract  was done at the end of 2014.  Maybe they the coaches think they have the same ceiling but why sign a guy who will cost more than Harrison?

 

2.  I agree coaches would not deliberately play a less talented player.  But as I mentioned earlier, with the times it has happened, especially along the oline, it does make a fan question their ability to judge player talent.

 

3.  Coaches do have a lot more information than fans but they are not around them 24/7/365.  But even with all that information they do make mistakes.  And maybe the only reason Harrison has a shot at starting is because they feel that he and Holmes have about the same ceiling and they have to do something until next year.

 

1) NCF already responded, but really? This staff benched Shipley for Satele repeatedly in 2012, then they traded him in 2013, then they benched him in 2014 for  a guy who wasn't all that great, then let him walk in free agency rather than tendering him. Shipley signed for two years, vet minimum, in Arizona. It's not like he was expensive. Even tendering him (which was twice as expensive) wouldn't have been prohibitive, not for a player whose ceiling you like. Grigson said before the Broncos playoff game, in so many words, 'Shipley is JAG, and he knows we love him but he also knows where he stands with us.' He didn't say that behind closed doors; he said that on the radio. You're acting like this is made up or something.

 

We have plenty of indications that the Colts staff prefers Harrison over Shipley, including, but not limited to the fact that they benched Shipley for Harrison for over half the season in 2014.

 

2 and 3) Nothing wrong with fans questioning personnel/coaching decisions. But more often than not, this questioning is done in hindsight, it's not based on fact, and it's sensationalized. There's plenty of that in this thread, and on this topic. You mentioned earlier that you said upfront that you thought it was a mistake to bench Shipley, so credit to you, but that doesn't really address the fact that the staff probably believed that Harrison's physical superiority would be more beneficial to the team. 

[SOMDColtsfan]

 

I hate to start this up again, but what the heck as there is not much news going around the web at this time.  I can kind of sympathize with him because he was better than Harrison. I knew they didn't view Shipley as the future though. 

 

http://www.chatsports.com/indianapolis-colts/a/Latest-Colts-links-AQ-Shipley-says-2014-was-trying-0-11496049

 

"'Last year was trying for me. I mean, it really was,' Shipley said.

"... Shipley was told by Colts management that he had played well, but said neither coach Chuck Pagano or general manager Ryan Grigson gave him "a specific reason" why he wasn't starting at center.

"'It was hard to keep my mouth shut,' Shipley said. 'That's the biggest thing. I knew at the end of the day I didn't want to be a cancer. I did not want to be a cancer to the team. We had a great team. We had a great season going, so I didn't want to be that.

"'I just kinda had to go to work. I got a pretty fun personality. I couldn't. I just ... I was there. I went to work. I did what I had to do. I did my football stuff. I did my stuff and I went home. But I couldn't be 100 percent me because it was so hard.'"

 

 

It was equally as hard to watch as a fan, best player AT THAT time was not playing. So it wasn't just us "pundits"

[Malakai432]

This is working under the assumption that players can only develop playing in actual games.

If it were Holmes who was replacing him I'd understand better (even though it would have been a terrible decision regardless), but replacing him with a rookie, when you've already expressed your preference to not have rookie starters across the o-line is crazy. Shipley was playing well, and was replaced by a guy who could barely snap the football correctly.

None the less a rookie who also seemed to have issues simply snapping the ball to his QB.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

Yeah I can imagine he was upset. And yeah it does show he's a good dude for not making a scene and causing hell over it. It would be hard to keep your mouth shut over it when you go play your butt of and play extremely well and then get replaced by some guy like Harrison who just sucks. I mean I know someone's gonna reply to that remark pretty quick saying this or that, but the fact is Shipley was good, Harrison sucked. Everybody was all "oh but Shipley's too small, he's got short arms, he's weak" blah, blah, blah, it don't matter. He was playing well. Very well. That's all that should have mattered. It was complete bull.

My problem with your post is that Harrison didn't suck.  He had his flaws and Shipley had his own flaws.

 

In some areas, Harrison was an upgrade (e.g., run blocking and strength).  In some areas, Harrison was a downgrade (e.g., snap timing and cleanliness).

 

Grigs/Pags are building this team for the future -- Shipley isn't a part of it.  Harrison and Holmes are (or at least show more potential to be) part of the future.

 

Our run game sucked all year, and Luck wasn't getting protected any better with Shipley vs. Harrison at center.  Luck is good enough to make up for some untimely snaps, T-Rich wasn't good enough to run behind Shipley (or Harrison, but I think better luck for TR with Harrison than Shipley).

 

IMO, the managerial decision made total sense.

[Coffeedrinker]

 

A few points about this:

 

1.  You really have no idea if the coaches think Harrison has a higher ceiling nor can you use the fact that Harrison is still on the roster as evidence.  Harrison is still under contract, Shipley's contract  was done at the end of 2014.  Maybe they the coaches think they have the same ceiling but why sign a guy who will cost more than Harrison?

 

If the coaches thought enough of Shipley, the team would've retained Shipley.   He wasn't that expensive.   Also,  the coaches sat Shipley last year and played Harrison -- a lot.    And Harrison had his struggles, no doubt.     Finally,   The coaches have had Shipley twice and either traded him or not retained him twice.    Again,  actions speak louder than words.    The staff does not think the two players have the same ceiling.

 

2.  I agree coaches would not deliberately play a less talented player.  But as I mentioned earlier, with the times it has happened, especially along the oline, it does make a fan question their ability to judge player talent.

 

This is an open and fair question.   One that I don't have an answer for -- at least, not yet.   Herriman was said to not have had a good year last year and yet we brought him in, and he looks to be a guy who either is a quality back-up or he could even start.    Again,  goes to judgement of the front office and staff.    And that's all we brought in via Free Agency and the draft (minus Good)

 

3.  Coaches do have a lot more information than fans but they are not around them 24/7/365.  But even with all that information they do make mistakes.  And maybe the only reason Harrison has a shot at starting is because they feel that he and Holmes have about the same ceiling and they have to do something until next year.

 

I knew when I wrote 24/7/365 that it would come back to haunt me, and it did!   My bad.   You're correct.   I was simply trying to say that the staff is around these guys far more than the fans are.    Fans see the games, and that's it.    We don't see the practices,  we don't see the meeting rooms,  we don't see the conditioning/weight room work and so on.    But 24/7/365 was a poor way to say it.   Sorry.    As for Harrison and Holmes, I think it speaks well of him that Holmes seemed to play well the final 5 games of the season and yet Harrison and Holmes are equal as of now.   I think it's clear that Grigson loves Holmes and wants him to work out.    Harrison is a free agent find.   We're all going to find out how good he is in August.   Personally, I'm pulling for Holmes,  but if Harrison beats him out then he must be pretty good.    At least,  that's my hope.

 

 

 

 

1) NCF already responded, but really? This staff benched Shipley for Satele repeatedly in 2012, then they traded him in 2013, then they benched him in 2014 for  a guy who wasn't all that great, then let him walk in free agency rather than tendering him. Shipley signed for two years, vet minimum, in Arizona. It's not like he was expensive. Even tendering him (which was twice as expensive) wouldn't have been prohibitive, not for a player whose ceiling you like. Grigson said before the Broncos playoff game, in so many words, 'Shipley is JAG, and he knows we love him but he also knows where he stands with us.' He didn't say that behind closed doors; he said that on the radio. You're acting like this is made up or something.

 

We have plenty of indications that the Colts staff prefers Harrison over Shipley, including, but not limited to the fact that they benched Shipley for Harrison for over half the season in 2014.

 

2 and 3) Nothing wrong with fans questioning personnel/coaching decisions. But more often than not, this questioning is done in hindsight, it's not based on fact, and it's sensationalized. There's plenty of that in this thread, and on this topic. You mentioned earlier that you said upfront that you thought it was a mistake to bench Shipley, so credit to you, but that doesn't really address the fact that the staff probably believed that Harrison's physical superiority would be more beneficial to the team. 

Do I think it's likely that the FO thinks Harrison and Shipley have the same ceiling. no.  But it's not out of the realm of possibility.  Harrison is under contract, Shipley wasn't, so if the staff thought they had the same ceiling they would keep the one under contract and let the one not under contract walk.  To use the logic that a player still under contract means the coaches think they have a higher ceiling, then you would have to say that the staff thinks Harrison has a higher ceiling than Holmes and that the staff thinks Holmes has a higher ceiling than Harrison.  But that's ridiculous, both are under contract and they will determine who is the starter.

 

And all that, I'm being just a tad obtuse the staff probably does think Harrison has a higher ceiling or more potential than Shipley, At least they did around week 5.  We, as fans don't really know what they think after watching him make the same mistakes over and over again every week.  They did bench him for Holmes, so maybe he fell out of favor.  The point is we don't know.

 

Lastly, I have no doubt the staff had their reasons for wanting to start Harrison over Shipley.  With oline decisions they have made in the past, I question their ability to judge oline talent.  And perhaps that is why Gilbert is no longer the Offensive line coach and Hal "Would you like to play a game" Hunter is.

[Superman]

Do I think it's likely that the FO thinks Harrison and Shipley have the same ceiling. no.  But it's not out of the realm of possibility.  Harrison is under contract, Shipley wasn't, so if the staff thought they had the same ceiling they would keep the one under contract and let the one not under contract walk.  To use the logic that a player still under contract means the coaches think they have a higher ceiling, then you would have to say that the staff thinks Harrison has a higher ceiling than Holmes and that the staff thinks Holmes has a higher ceiling than Harrison.  But that's ridiculous, both are under contract and they will determine who is the starter.

 

And all that, I'm being just a tad obtuse the staff probably does think Harrison has a higher ceiling or more potential than Shipley, At least they did around week 5.  We, as fans don't really know what they think after watching him make the same mistakes over and over again every week.  They did bench him for Holmes, so maybe he fell out of favor.  The point is we don't know.

 

Lastly, I have no doubt the staff had their reasons for wanting to start Harrison over Shipley.  With oline decisions they have made in the past, I question their ability to judge oline talent.  And perhaps that is why Gilbert is no longer the Offensive line coach and Hal "Would you like to play a game" Hunter is.

 

Setting aside what I think is a pretty circular argument from you, not keeping Shipley is just part of the picture, not the entire thing. Over three seasons, we've seen plenty of indication that this staff isn't high on Shipley.

 

Gilber and Hunter are sharing the OL coach title right now. I don't know what that means at all, what the hierarchy is, whether the blocking schemes will change, etc. But that was probably the most interesting staff change we had this season.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I was not really pleased with the play of any center last year.  I was less miffed when Holmes somewhat fair played late in the season, but...

 

Anyway, I see the ability to show off Harrison ability to lock up a guy when blocking him!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYdd35cb6H8

[JPFolks]

My "evidence" about Harrison is that he's still on the roster and the coaches have stated he's in an off-season battle with Holmes for the starting position.     Shipley was not kept and moved on.

 

I probably should've clarified,  I think it's the coaches who view Harrison as having a higher ceiling.   And their actions speak louder than words.

 

Superman said it best a few years back when fans here were complaining about who the coaches started/played and who got less snaps.....     He said roughly this....  "Why would the coaches deliberately play the inferior player?   The coaches jobs are on the line with winning and losing.   Playing the lesser player can lead to losses.    Playing the better player hopefully leads to wins.  The coaches may be wrong in their assessment,  but they believe they're starting the best players."

 

So, why would the front office not keep Shipley and not only retrain Harrison,  but they announce he's got a shot to start this year?    Because they think he can be much much better than Shipley.      Maybe they're wrong,  but they think they're right and they're around these guys 24/7/365.

Yeah, just like the KNEW playing Richardson over and over was the right decision.  Sorry, but if Shipley was such a loser, as many have implied by their vitriol, why would Arizona now be planning on him being their starting center this year?  The Colts staff refused, almost to the point of bizarreness, to answer simple questions as to why Shipley was demoted and replaced by Harrison.  They all refused, over and over, to even offer an answer.  

 

They obviously couldn't stand the guy and had no interest in allowing him to play, because based on performance, there is no other rational explanation.  You don't play someone who is not ready unless the season is over, you're out of the playoff race (or perhaps the game is a blowout and nothing can change the end result) and you are getting ready for the next season.  Every play that Harrison was in there, they increased the risk of losing Luck for the season.  That factor alone should have had anyone else available who could improve his safety on a given play in there.  Even if Harrison is now ready to play, it does not remotely justify playing him last year when a superior (lower growth ceiling or not) performer was sitting on the bench. 

 

This topic is being discussed well beyond this message board.  People act like this is the ONLY place people talk about the Colts.  ESPN ,mentioned it again in their mailbag last week and agreed with what I and many others have been saying. 

[JPFolks]

I was not really pleased with the play of any center last year.  I was less miffed when Holmes somewhat fair played late in the season, but...

 

Anyway, I see the ability to show off Harrison ability to lock up a guy when blocking him!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYdd35cb6H8

Wow... that pretty much sums it all up doesn't it? I can see why the Colts were so impressed with him!  And he showed his other skills like bad snapping in the Pros.  What an amazing athlete.  I have never seen two players on the same team blocking each other on a sustained play like that all the way down to Pee Wee.   I played all the way through 4 years of college and never saw or heard of it happening anywhere before.  Thank you ColtsBlue...

[NewColtsFan]

Yeah, just like the KNEW playing Richardson over and over was the right decision.  Sorry, but if Shipley was such a loser, as many have implied by their vitriol, why would Arizona now be planning on him being their starting center this year?  The Colts staff refused, almost to the point of bizarreness, to answer simple questions as to why Shipley was demoted and replaced by Harrison.  They all refused, over and over, to even offer an answer.  

 

They obviously couldn't stand the guy and had no interest in allowing him to play, because based on performance, there is no other rational explanation.  You don't play someone who is not ready unless the season is over, you're out of the playoff race (or perhaps the game is a blowout and nothing can change the end result) and you are getting ready for the next season.  Every play that Harrison was in there, they increased the risk of losing Luck for the season.  That factor alone should have had anyone else available who could improve his safety on a given play in there.  Even if Harrison is now ready to play, it does not remotely justify playing him last year when a superior (lower growth ceiling or not) performer was sitting on the bench. 

 

This topic is being discussed well beyond this message board.  People act like this is the ONLY place people talk about the Colts.  ESPN ,mentioned it again in their mailbag last week and agreed with what I and many others have been saying. 

 

This may come as a surprise to you,  but I'm a Shipley fan.   I like the guy.   I was among the first to sing his praises here in 2012.

 

But there's not an ounce of "vitriol" being used here.   People here don't hate the guy,  they think he wasn't all the great.

 

That said,  Shipley is NOT the starter in Arizona unless this guy,  Ted Larson, is injured.    The Cardinals signed Shipley to a contract for the NFL Veteran minimum salary to be their back-up to Larson.    If Shipley is starting,  Larson is hurt.

 

Also,  the Colts hated Shipley so much they brought him in not just once,  but twice.    We had him,  we traded him to Baltimore.  And when the Ravens let him go,  WE BROUGHT HIM BACK!    Hello?!?     Does that sound like a guy who the team hated?!?

 

If Shipley is so good,  why did Baltimore let him go?   That's a franchise that knows personnel.

 

If the Colts stopped using him last year,  it should tell you the staff thought his game had serious limitations.   And the reason why the staff didn't go public about it is that this franchise does a very good job of keeping it's business in-house,  behind closed doors.     There's no need to go public and talk-down one of your own players.

 

Do I wish the staff had talked to Shipley more?   Yes.    That would've been better and more professional.   But this type of thing is not uncommon in professional sports.   Some teams don't like talking about bad news "you're being demoted" unless they have to.

 

As for your last paragraph,  I have no idea what the big deal about ESPN is in this instance?   One fan wrote in two weeks ago to say "who is the starting center"  and Mike Wells said it was too soon, and he didn't know.     And that's supposed to mean what exactly?

 

I don't know why you're so angry about this,  but you are.   Your responses to my posts are typically angry and sarcastic.   I'm not sure why you're so worked up,  but that's the way you come across.....     The team has gotten better every year, and, barring injury,   I expect them to get better this year.