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What Do You Donald Brown Haters Have To Say Now?


Blue Horseshoe

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Yes and no. Those are real yards that lead to points ( hopefully) they also force a D to stay honest. Too bad we don't have a QB that can capitalize on that at the moment.

There are 2 types of back ( for the purposes of this discussion anyway) the guys, usually power runners, who, consistently, chew up nice chunks of yardage but rarely give you a big gain. Then there are the guys who will get stopped for a yard or two, give you 7, then 0, then bang! pop a big run. Obviously Brown, when on his game and enabled by the O line, is the latter. Both are important.

What skews YPC stats more than anything, is 3rd and short type carries. That is why you can't really use YPC to judge a guy like Carter. Interestingly enough Brown has been used in more short yardage situations than I would have expected and done fairly well in those as well.

This is also a valid point.

I'm going to use an extreme example here to illustrate what I was talking about. Lets say that Brown got 100 yards on 20 carries. 5 ypc average which is pretty darn good. Well, lets say all 100 yards came on one run and the other 19 went no where.

Is he really getting 5 yards per carry? Well, in the technical sense yes he is averageing that. But with that sort of breakdown it becomes useless as a indicator of what you should expect for any given run.

I should add I'm not talking about Brown specifically here but more the idea that a few long runs (or as you pointed out several short ones) can skew a YPC number to make it misleading.

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Youre right, and with Brown they knock 1796 total yards and 10 TDs in 38 games as a 1st round pick.....

Chris Johnson has put up 1761 total yards 11 TDs in 10 games as a 1st round pick.......

What is the point of this? Brown has 365 career touches and averages 4.2 y/carry and 10 y/catch. CJ had 360 touches in 2010 alone and has a career average of 4.8 y/carry and 7.2 y/catch. If your point is that Brown is underutilized for a 1st round draft pick (talent withstanding), then I agree. If you were trying to make some point about him being a bust then you failed...pointing out that CJ had nearly as much production in 10 games is meaningless if DB received essentially the same amount of touches in his career.

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Im talking the last several years average, not this years. I believe the different play calling due to Manning being out has lead to what brown and garcon have done this year. And two big garcon yardages were because garcon broke free of his tacklers and ran hard. Browns numbers are also due to the same thing.

I dont think, and someone correct me on this if im wrong, but the colts have not been throwing half as much this year as the last 10 due to Manning not at QB.

Im interested to see what happens next season..

Well no we haven't thrown the ball near as much this year, but what does that have to do with their production?

Are you saying that we should discount what DB has done because we are running the ball more? Certainty I think the combination of more opportunities and the staff moving to using a fullback has lead to his success, but it sure does not discount his success. Imagine if we actually had a passing game how much more effective the run game would be.

As for Garcon, you are just way off base. Look at last year v. this year. He has essentially the same amount of targets through 14 games (he missed two games last year), and has more yards. Further, he had 13 drops last year and only has 3 this year and actually had more receptions last year...meaning he had more catchable balls but did more with the catchable balls this year. How in the world would you think that playing with a worse QB would skew Pierre's stats for the better?

Season G Target Rec Yard Avg TD

2010 14 118 67 784 11.7 6

2011 14 117 62 875 14.1 6

And making big plays--breaking tackles and running hard as you call it--is not a bad thing or knock on their skill. I mean, all the best WR and RBs (Donald and Pierre are not top tier...I'm just saying) break tackles and make big plays. That's what playmakers do!

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For the players this year we have discussed being their make it/break it year:

Painter - I think he is gone. No reason they would keep him.

Brown - He is good against bad defenses, but can't do anything against good defenses. Let's face it, that 80 yard TD was luck on a broken play. I am glad it happened in our favor, but serious? He has had good games against bad defenses, but most players should. So being a change of pace guy could still be possible, but HE ISN'T THE SAVIOR AT RB! :)

Gonzo - Yeah, he is gone. Hasn't even played

Addai - We need someone that can stay healthy, I would not have an issue with them letting him walk and maybe grabbing someone out there on the market.

Wheeler - What can I say, I think he is the biggest improvement of any player. He has proven finally that he can play in the NFL. I think he finally earned his spot. I love our LB's!!!!

Lacey - Good game yesterday, but let's face it, under our defensive scheme, he isn't that good. Kinda like Tim Jennings, we all wanted him gone, but look how good/decent he is in Chicago on a good defense? Lacey could be the same way.

Hughes - Healthy scratch for weeks and has really been horrible for a lot of him playing. I don't see a reason to keep him.

I might have missed a few, but on that list, Wheeler is the only one that I would want them to keep right now.

Since we are in a Brown thread that part is false... Brown avg 5yds against a bengals defense that was in the top 5, RB's are only as good as their Oline except for the likes of sanders... brown has great vision, (makes me giggle when i hear ppl criticizing his vision).... there is no such thing as a savior back either.. there is such thing as an every down back and donald brown is that unlike addai.

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Ah, why do i even bother.. i stated they are good.. not GREAT. COLTS NEED GREAT with consistency . Go back and re read my first post again. Illiteracy running rampant in this forum.

Ummm, you never said Brown or Garcon were good.

Here is your first post: i would say that a couple good games do not make him great. If he continues to improve, then sure.. keep him. lets face it.. Garcon does the same types of things.. has good games, then drops 10 in a row.. Consistancy is key. The colts need good consistant play.

Here's your second post: Im talking the last several years average, not this years. I believe the different play calling due to Manning being out has lead to what brown and garcon have done this year. And two big garcon yardages were because garcon broke free of his tacklers and ran hard. Browns numbers are also due to the same thing. I dont think, and someone correct me on this if im wrong, but the colts have not been throwing half as much this year as the last 10 due to Manning not at QB.

Im interested to see what happens next season.

You never once said that either player was good. In fact, in your first post, you equated consistency with good, and called both Brown and Garcon inconsistent. So, you actually said they were not good. In your second post, you reinforced this logic in some strange argument that because we throw the ball less, Brown/Garcon have had better years, which really aren't better because of big plays. I hate to say it, but since you went there, who's illiterate?

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Ummm, you never said Brown or Garcon were good.

Here is your first post: i would say that a couple good games do not make him great. If he continues to improve, then sure.. keep him. lets face it.. Garcon does the same types of things.. has good games, then drops 10 in a row.. Consistancy is key. The colts need good consistant play.

Here's your second post: Im talking the last several years average, not this years. I believe the different play calling due to Manning being out has lead to what brown and garcon have done this year. And two big garcon yardages were because garcon broke free of his tacklers and ran hard. Browns numbers are also due to the same thing. I dont think, and someone correct me on this if im wrong, but the colts have not been throwing half as much this year as the last 10 due to Manning not at QB.

Im interested to see what happens next season.

You never once said that either player was good. In fact, in your first post, you equated consistency with good, and called both Brown and Garcon inconsistent. So, you actually said they were not good. In your second post, you reinforced this logic in some strange argument that because we throw the ball less, Brown/Garcon have had better years, which really aren't better because of big plays. I hate to say it, but since you went there, who's illiterate?

Huh, so saying someone had some GOOD games is not calling them good?? Maybe in your world. I also said BROWNHAD SOME GOOD GAMES BUT THAT DOESNT MAKE HIM GREAT. Again. I swear you argue just to argue. I specifically said they both had GOOD games, to me, that means they were GOOD. Usually in the common world that when you say good it means GOOD.

Neither are great. As I stated before. Why the constant arguing? Do you like confrontations? I was very clear on my point, just because you cannot understand it doesnt mean I didnt say it. Perhaps before you reply you could sit back, take a minute and evaluate what you read if you didnt get it the first time. Sorry i confused you. Crimany.

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And my sig should show the state of play Brown has had over the last couple years. Missing blocks, dropping passes, little to no yardage, ect. Give the guy another year and see what he can produce. A couple good games doesnt make him great. He has been more inconsistent than anything since he was drafted. THAT cannot be argued. A few GOOD games makes him good for those games. Savvy?

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Huh, so saying someone had some GOOD games is not calling them good?? Maybe in your world. I also said BROWNHAD SOME GOOD GAMES BUT THAT DOESNT MAKE HIM GREAT. Again. I swear you argue just to argue. I specifically said they both had GOOD games, to me, that means they were GOOD. Usually in the common world that when you say good it means GOOD.

Neither are great. As I stated before. Why the constant arguing? Do you like confrontations? I was very clear on my point, just because you cannot understand it doesnt mean I didnt say it. Perhaps before you reply you could sit back, take a minute and evaluate what you read if you didnt get it the first time. Sorry i confused you. Crimany.

I agree both are good but not great....so guess we are on the same page. You said Brown has had a couple of good games, not that he is a good player. There is a difference to me. Besides, I don't really think anyone on here is saying that Brown is a great RB, and even if he does start producing on a consistent basis he will never be a great (defining great as a HoF calibur) player. The question is really whether he is a bust or a solid contributor for his draft position. As a player who is just now beginning to be utilized more, he is trending toward the latter. And, I'm not being confrontational. I'm just trying to use facts, not insults, to make a point.

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What is the point of this? Brown has 365 career touches and averages 4.2 y/carry and 10 y/catch. CJ had 360 touches in 2010 alone and has a career average of 4.8 y/carry and 7.2 y/catch. If your point is that Brown is underutilized for a 1st round draft pick (talent withstanding), then I agree. If you were trying to make some point about him being a bust then you failed...pointing out that CJ had nearly as much production in 10 games is meaningless if DB received essentially the same amount of touches in his career.

CJ- 10 games, 275 touches, 1761yds, 11TDs

DB- 38 games, 365 touches, 1796yds, 10TDs

How is that NOT a bust??!?!? Brown can finish with 200yds a game for the rest of the season and he STILL would not justify his selection. But once again the "Dwight Freeney Syndrome" sets in. Colts fans see a good game, and suddenly all the previous horrible plays are absolved. Its ridiculous.

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How is that NOT a bust??!?!? Brown can finish with 200yds a game for the rest of the season and he STILL would not justify his selection. But once again the "Dwight Freeney Syndrome" sets in. Colts fans see a good game, and suddenly all the previous horrible plays are absolved. Its ridiculous.

And in turn, why are you hung up on the past, and on the desire to label a player? If a player contributed today, there is an excellent probability that he will contribute tomorrow - and the future is what what matters when evaluating a roster. Similarly many have lost confidence in Dallas Clark because or his erratic play this season and growing tendency towards injuries. He's been a tremendous player for the Colts, but when discussing the state of the current roster he is a concern. Frankly far more of a concern with Brown. The fact that he has been more consistent in the past then Brown is a comparatively small consideration.

And what the heck is "Dwight Freeney Syndrome"? If it has anything to do with being one of the best players at your position for a decade, than I hope it's contagious.

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CJ- 10 games, 275 touches, 1761yds, 11TDs

DB- 38 games, 365 touches, 1796yds, 10TDs

How is that NOT a bust??!?!? Brown can finish with 200yds a game for the rest of the season and he STILL would not justify his selection. But once again the "Dwight Freeney Syndrome" sets in. Colts fans see a good game, and suddenly all the previous horrible plays are absolved. Its ridiculous.

What 10 CJ games are you using? Why are you cherry picking a 10 game stretch? Why not use a whole season like I did? Look, in no way am I trying to say that DB is CJ, but you are trying to say that DB is a bust by comparing him to a 10 game stretch of who used to be the biggest playmaker in the NFL. CJ was and is the centerpiece of the Titans offense. Any Colts RB has been an afterthought since '06.

If DB produces the rest of the year and next year because he is getting more opportunities, will you still call him a bust because he struggled his first two years in the league?

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What 10 CJ games are you using? I'm just asking....

Look, in no way am I trying to say that DB is CJ, but you are trying to say that DB is a bust by comparing him to a 10 game stretch of who used to be the biggest playmaker in the NFL.

If DB produces the rest of the year and next year because he is getting more opportunities, will you still call him a bust?

2009 Weeks 6-15

Im not comparing DB to CJ at all....there is NO comparison between the 2......What I was doing was showing what a #1 drafted RB SHOULD do......RB is the easiest, most basic of NFL positions, so when your using your first pick in an entire draft on a RB, HE BETTER PRODUCE! Brown was the 2nd overall RB taken! That is absurd! You got guys like Mccoy,Beanie, Shonn, going MUCH later than Brown. All of whom are better.

And yes, until Brown puts up 1st round pick #s or anything anywhere near it (not 1700 CAREER yds in 3 seasons), I will consider him a bust.

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2009 Weeks 6-15

Im not comparing DB to CJ at all....there is NO comparison between the 2......What I was doing was showing what a #1 drafted RB SHOULD do......RB is the easiest, most basic of NFL positions, so when your using your first pick in an entire draft on a RB, HE BETTER PRODUCE! Brown was the 2nd overall RB taken! That is absurd! You got guys like Mccoy,Beanie, Shonn, going MUCH later than Brown. All of whom are better.

And yes, until Brown puts up 1st round pick #s or anything anywhere near it (not 1700 CAREER yds in 3 seasons), I will consider him a bust.

Fair enough...

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And what the heck is "Dwight Freeney Syndrome"? If it has anything to do with being one of the best players at your position for a decade, than I hope it's contagious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, o man, best player for a decade....Thats a good one...I should just 'spin move' right out of here before I bust a gut......

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HAHAHAHAHAHAH, o man, best player for a decade....Thats a good one...I should just 'spin move' right out of here before I bust a gut......

So I gather that you think Freeney was a first round bust as well? I had assumed that you weren't actually putting him down with your comment. I guess I was wrong. Your standards seem a bit odd. To diminish his significance to the Colts defense in this manner does little to bolster your opinion about Brown or anyone else on the roster. In fact I don't remember ever reading anyone else denigrating Freeney on this site. A very strange position to take.

Then again, you seem to adore Johnson, a player that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. The manner in which he has underperformed this season immediately after crippling the franchise with a new contract doesn't say much for him - and that's ignoring the fact that RBs can't consistently win games by themselves in the current NFL. Its foolish to lavish one with an oversized contract. People won't even remember Johnson's name in ten years, at which point Freeney will be getting serious hall-of-fame consideration. This isn't Madden, and Johnson is a one-trick pony with no heart.

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So I gather that you think Freeney was a first round bust as well? I had assumed that you weren't actually putting him down with your comment. I guess I was wrong. Your standards seem a bit odd. To diminish his significance to the Colts defense in this manner does little to bolster your opinion about Brown or anyone else on the roster. In fact I don't remember ever reading anyone else denigrating Freeney on this site. A very strange position to take.

Then again, you seem to adore Johnson, a player that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. The manner in which he has underperformed this season immediately after crippling the franchise with a new contract doesn't say much for him - and that's ignoring the fact that RBs can't consistently win games by themselves in the current NFL. Its foolish to lavish one with an oversized contract. People won't even remember Johnson's name in ten years, at which point Freeney will be getting serious hall-of-fame consideration. This isn't Madden, and Johnson is a one-trick pony with no heart.

Wrong on every single account. Its ok though.

First round bust? hardly. Freeneys done well for us. The amount of love he gets on this site is rediculous. Its very, very, clear to me that a majority of this bored is clueless about the 31 other football teams in the NFL, and the players that play on them. My opinion that Freeney isn't even a top 5 DE and has ZERO chance to make HoF has zero bearing as to if Donald Brown is a bust (he is).

As for Johnson. I adore him?! You gathered this how? Because I listed a 10 game stretch he played in? Or said that is an example of how a 1st round running back should play? I truly hope you do not work for law enforcement. To be honest, Im a Steven Jackson man myself, but that has nothing to do with anything.

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Its foolish to lavish one with an oversized contract. People won't even remember Johnson's name in ten years, at which point Freeney will be getting serious hall-of-fame consideration. This isn't Madden, and Johnson is a one-trick pony with no heart.

Its so so rich and juicy. rotfl

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Greene, Doleman, Strahan, Taylor, Abraham, Peppers, Allen, Ware, Sapp these are all DL/sack specialist that will get consideration WELL before Dwight. We haven't even really gotten into the other defensive positions in the game. And where is it you think Dwight fits into all of this?

Not only will those guys have more sacks than Freeney, but they will have more of nearly everything else as well. Not to mention, few if any had the teammate that Mathis is on the other side. Not everyone can get in. Its not the Hall of Very Good. Its the Hall of Fame.

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Greene, Doleman, Strahan, Taylor, Abraham, Peppers, Allen, Ware, Sapp these are all DL/sack specialist that will get consideration WELL before Dwight. We haven't even really gotten into the other defensive positions in the game. And where is it you think Dwight fits into all of this?

Not only will those guys have more sacks than Freeney, but they will have more of nearly everything else as well. Not to mention, few if any had the teammate that Mathis is on the other side. Not everyone can get in. Its not the Hall of Very Good. Its the Hall of Fame.

Freeney is the #1 DE on the NFL's All-Decade team for the 2000's - a group chosen by the members of the Hall-of-Fame selection committee. It would seem a bit odd for him to drop from this lofty perch to the position that you ascribe to him. If they voted for him then, why wouldn't he get consideration for the hall upon retiring? He's done nothing but continue to perform at a high level since the vote.

And by the way, Sapp and Ware don't even play the same position. It is utterly bizarre to me that a Colts fan would go so far out of his way to denigrate one of the most successful players in the history of the franchise.

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Freeney is the #1 DE on the NFL's All-Decade team for the 2000's - a group chosen by the members of the Hall-of-Fame selection committee. It would seem a bit odd for him to drop from this lofty perch to the position that you ascribe to him. If they voted for him then, why wouldn't he get consideration for the hall upon retiring? He's done nothing but continue to perform at a high level since the vote.

Freeney had the benefit of playing the whole decade. Strahan,Taylor,Peppers, all on that list too. So are Seymour and Sapp. There are 23 Off, 22 Def players on that list. It would take over 9 years to inducted the players on that list.

Look its not hard. There are 5 spots each year. At this point in time there are EASILY 30 DEFENSIVE players that will be in the HoF before Dwight. And that is being generous. Now factor in offensive players, Coaching, Ownership and others, it will take DECADES for Dwight to even sniff the HoF.

And by the way, Sapp and Ware don't even play the same position. It is utterly bizarre to me that a Colts fan would go so far out of his way to denigrate one of the most successful players in the history of the franchise.

I didnt say they did, I said DL and or sack specialist.

And thats the problem, Im not going out of my way to denigrate Freeney, Im trying to show everyone he's just not a HoF player. I love the guy, he's been great for our franchise, and I wish we had 10 more of him on def. but that does not change the fact that more deserving players will get into the HoF before he does.

I can appreciate you loving your hometown ice-cream parlor. But every towns got one, and every town thinks what they have is the best, its to be expected.

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Greene, Doleman, Strahan, Taylor, Abraham, Peppers, Allen, Ware, Sapp these are all DL/sack specialist that will get consideration WELL before Dwight. We haven't even really gotten into the other defensive positions in the game. And where is it you think Dwight fits into all of this?

Not only will those guys have more sacks than Freeney, but they will have more of nearly everything else as well. Not to mention, few if any had the teammate that Mathis is on the other side. Not everyone can get in. Its not the Hall of Very Good. Its the Hall of Fame.

please, you really saying freeney is overrated? thats just laughable.

and if you are using allen from the vikigns as an example of a better DE you are crazy. i like allen, he plays his heart out every week but he plays twice a year vs teams taht have notoriously lacked T for the last 5 years. bears, gb and detroid havent had a T in years. I much rather have Freeney, even ahead of abraham, allen, strahan. Peppers and Ware are probably the only ones who I woudl have a hard time deciding.

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please, you really saying freeney is overrated? thats just laughable.

and if you are using allen from the vikigns as an example of a better DE you are crazy. i like allen, he plays his heart out every week but he plays twice a year vs teams taht have notoriously lacked T for the last 5 years. bears, gb and detroid havent had a T in years. I much rather have Freeney

Didn't say Dwight was overrated, I said he wont sniff the HoF.

Your gonna go there? Texans? Expansion team? David Carr? Allen has double digits against GB/Det...Freeney has em against Tex/Tenn.....And btw, Detroits LT, Jeff Backus, has started every game since being drafted in 2001.

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So you are the rational, voice of reason? I thought that was DN's position?

No not at all. But everyone throws around HoF like its candy corn. Its reserved for the truly greatest of the great. There are only 5 spots a year, if people just did the math they would realize how crazy it is. I appreciate what Dwight has done, he will be a pillar of the Colts HoF, but thats where it stays.

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