Dwayne Allen and Coby Fleener

[Chucklez]

IMO, I don't think they would.  Fleener only became the top TE when Dwayne ran a slow 40 at the combine.  Again, you could be right since the players that they took did not pan out.

Fleener is easily already a top 10 TE in the league, maybe even top 7 (i struggle to think of 7 better TE's than him)....

You have Gronk, Graham, Witten, Julius Thomas, Cameron, Greg Olson....... Maybe Dennis Pitta?....... uhm.... yeah who else? Antonio Gates is almost extinct so he doesnt count. An argument can be made that Allen is better than him, but you have to wonder if Allen can stay healthy a full season (notably just like Gronk btw...)

For a player who only just finished his 3rd year in the NFL, i'd say that is pretty good going. If we could draft that well at every position wouldn't you be over the moon... for instance if Werner was a top 10 DE or if Vick Ballard didnt get injured and was a top 10 RB.... Hell, if our entire O line were top 10 worthy....

I just don't like how Fleener is constantly ripped on for not being an "Elite" game breaking TE when he is still so young and, actually..., he is pretty darn good to be considered one of the best 10 TE's in the world at this stage.

[coltsfanatic24]

Statistically, they were the best TE tandem in the league. Allen just has been hurt the last year or so. If Fleener played with the same toughness as Allen, he would be the best TE in the league but he doesn't. Sometimes, he plays like he doesn't want to get hit.

[NewColtsFan]

Isn't that what has happen the last 2 seasons, basically.  Considering that Dwayne has been sidelined with injuries.  I understand that Fleener is a favorite of some people, but let's call it as it is, Fleener has had his chances and still hasn't stepped up to be the TE that some people think he is or drafted to be (top of 2nd round).

 

That's calling it like you see it.

 

I don't think that's a view that is shared by the Colts coaches or front office.

[RockThatBlue]

After the year Fleener just had you are still hating on him?

He played such an important role in our offense this past year... 774 yards and 8TDs. Thats great when you consider he was contesting with TY, Moncrief, Wayne, Nicks and Allen for targets...

He averaged 15.2 yards per catch for God's sake... AS A TE....

His ypc was higher than Gronks BTW. Hardly "average" that some are saying here.

[ThaCaliColt]

I will take Gronk and whomever backs Gronk up

Forget it. Gronk and who?

[Surge89]

Statistically, they were the best TE tandem in the league. Allen just has been hurt the last year or so. If Fleener played with the same toughness as Allen, he would be the best TE in the league but he doesn't. Sometimes, he plays like he doesn't want to get hit.

 

Lol this is so backwards...

 

I would've agreed with you in Fleener's rookie year.  But lately it has been Fleener that has been the imposing player and Allen the one with the "dropsies" near contact.  Funny how perception is skewed at a first glance...

[Surge89]

Fleener is easily already a top 10 TE in the league, maybe even top 7 (i struggle to think of 7 better TE's than him)....

You have Gronk, Graham, Witten, Julius Thomas, Cameron, Greg Olson....... Maybe Dennis Pitta?....... uhm.... yeah who else? Antonio Gates is almost extinct so he doesnt count. An argument can be made that Allen is better than him, but you have to wonder if Allen can stay healthy a full season (notably just like Gronk btw...)

For a player who only just finished his 3rd year in the NFL, i'd say that is pretty good going. If we could draft that well at every position wouldn't you be over the moon... for instance if Werner was a top 10 DE or if Vick Ballard didnt get injured and was a top 10 RB.... Hell, if our entire O line were top 10 worthy....

I just don't like how Fleener is constantly ripped on for not being an "Elite" game breaking TE when he is still so young and, actually..., he is pretty darn good to be considered one of the best 10 TE's in the world at this stage.

 

The sad thing is the only TE's I see in Fleener's range out of your group is Thomas, Witten and Cameron.  Olson and Pitta while good TE's they aren't in the same league as Fleener.

[BOTT]

The sad thing is the only TE's I see in Fleener's range out of your group is Thomas, Witten and Cameron.  Olson and Pitta while good TE's they aren't in the same league as Fleener.

So Gronk and graham aren't in Fleener's class?

[Chucklez]

So Gronk and graham aren't in Fleener's class?

Gronk is the JJ Watt of TEs.... No one is even close to as good as him... Graham was verging on being close to as good as him two seasons ago, but Graham showed this past season that he was just pretending to be as good as Gronk...

[Surge89]

So Gronk and graham aren't in Fleener's class?

 

Sorry, it was implied that Gronk and Graham are in a class of their own.  With Gronk being in the highest.

[Chucklez]

The sad thing is the only TE's I see in Fleener's range out of your group is Thomas, Witten and Cameron.  Olson and Pitta while good TE's they aren't in the same league as Fleener.

Olson was in the Probowl this year and he had to play on a team with no name WRs other than the rookie Benjamin to take attention away from him. Pitta was injured but you cant deny he is a good TE as well. Also yeah what gives with not including Gronk or Graham?

[BOTT]

Sorry, it was implied that Gronk and Graham are in a class of their own.  With Gronk being in the highest.

Olsen is easily in Fleener's class and Travis Kelce is better

[gacker65]

Fleener is easily already a top 10 TE in the league, maybe even top 7 (i struggle to think of 7 better TE's than him)....

You have Gronk, Graham, Witten, Julius Thomas, Cameron, Greg Olson....... Maybe Dennis Pitta?....... uhm.... yeah who else? Antonio Gates is almost extinct so he doesnt count. An argument can be made that Allen is better than him, but you have to wonder if Allen can stay healthy a full season (notably just like Gronk btw...)

For a player who only just finished his 3rd year in the NFL, i'd say that is pretty good going. If we could draft that well at every position wouldn't you be over the moon... for instance if Werner was a top 10 DE or if Vick Ballard didnt get injured and was a top 10 RB.... Hell, if our entire O line were top 10 worthy....

I just don't like how Fleener is constantly ripped on for not being an "Elite" game breaking TE when he is still so young and, actually..., he is pretty darn good to be considered one of the best 10 TE's in the world at this stage.

You are probably right about Fleener Being a top 10 TE.  The question is, is it because of his play or is it because of the lack of talent at TE in the NFL?  Like the 2012 draft, Fleener is there because somebody else faltered, IMO.

 

Fleener has not progressed much from his rookie year through the end of this season, from what I have seen.

 

As for why I rip Fleener for not being elite, is because of people like you.  I have been told that since before the 2012 draft and I have been waiting to see that happen.  All I have seen is average, with little progress from year to year.  Three years in, e should be seeing more progress.  

 

The funny thing about this, is if Dwayne could stay healthy, we would not be having this discussion, IMO.

[gacker65]

That's calling it like you see it.

 

I don't think that's a view that is shared by the Colts coaches or front office.

You are correct, it is how I see it.  I am not the one who passed over a Pro Bowl O-lineman for my QB's BFF.  Yes he was the top rated TE in the 2012 draft, but why was that?  Oh yea, because Dwayne Allen ran a slow 40 at the combine and his pro day.  Give Dwayne a little more speed and we would not be having this discussion.

 

I have not seen much progression from Fleener's rookie year till the end of this season.  Again, as you have stated, that is what I see and not what the Coaches or FO sees.

 

Also, I wasn't calling him elite before he even played a down in the NFL.

[NewColtsFan]

You are correct, it is how I see it.  I am not the one who passed over a Pro Bowl O-lineman for my QB's BFF.  Yes he was the top rated TE in the 2012 draft, but why was that?  Oh yea, because Dwayne Allen ran a slow 40 at the combine and his pro day.  Give Dwayne a little more speed and we would not be having this discussion.

 

I have not seen much progression from Fleener's rookie year till the end of this season.  Again, as you have stated, that is what I see and not what the Coaches or FO sees.

 

Also, I wasn't calling him elite before he even played a down in the NFL.

 

Fleener is a lot more than just Andrew Luck's BFF.

 

You act as if if the Colts hadn't taken him 34th overall that he would've fallen and not picked for a long time.    He was very highly regarded by lots of teams.

 

He may not be Gronk -- but no one else is either.

 

Fleener is still good and a valuable asset.    And I expect him to get better -- just as I expect Allen and Luck to get better.

[gacker65]

Fleener is a lot more than just Andrew Luck's BFF.

 

You act as if if the Colts hadn't taken him 34th overall that he would've fallen and not picked for a long time.    He was very highly regarded by lots of teams.

 

He may not be Gronk -- but no one else is either.

 

Fleener is still good and a valuable asset.    And I expect him to get better -- just as I expect Allen and Luck to get better.

Ask yourself this, If he was as good as some of you make him to be, Why wasn't he drafted by the Bucs or the Giants in bottom of the 1st round?  Both teams were in dire need of a TE.  You also need to ask yourself why he became the top rated TE in the draft.  Before the combine, Fleener wasn't the top rated TE.

 

If the Colts don't take him, IMO, it would have been in the latter part of the 2nd round.

 

I agree, that I expect Fleener to get better, just haven't seen much progress from start of rookie till the end of this last season. 

 

As for me calling him Luck's BFF, Fleener played with Luck at Stanford and IMO, if we don't draft Luck, we don't draft one dimensional TE like Fleener.

[aaron11]

sell

 

id take gronk and his backup and for that matter JG and his back up over fleener and allen

 

i think our guys would be a soild third

[BOTT]

Ask yourself this, If he was as good as some of you make him to be, Why wasn't he drafted by the Bucs or the Giants in bottom of the 1st round?  Both teams were in dire need of a TE.  You also need to ask yourself why he became the top rated TE in the draft.  Before the combine, Fleener wasn't the top rated TE.

 

If the Colts don't take him, IMO, it would have been in the latter part of the 2nd round.

 

I agree, that I expect Fleener to get better, just haven't seen much progress from start of rookie till the end of this last season. 

 

As for me calling him Luck's BFF, Fleener played with Luck at Stanford and IMO, if we don't draft Luck, we don't draft one dimensional TE like Fleener.

The Gaints always preferred blocking TEs under Coughlin and Gilbride

And before the combine many had Fleener as the top pass catching TE

The whole BFF thing is silly. They drafted Fleener because they thought he was a good player.

[twfish]

You are correct, it is how I see it. I am not the one who passed over a Pro Bowl O-lineman for my QB's BFF. Yes he was the top rated TE in the 2012 draft, but why was that? Oh yea, because Dwayne Allen ran a slow 40 at the combine and his pro day. Give Dwayne a little more speed and we would not be having this discussion.

I have not seen much progression from Fleener's rookie year till the end of this season. Again, as you have stated, that is what I see and not what the Coaches or FO sees.

Also, I wasn't calling him elite before he even played a down in the NFL.

You should watch a little closer and we would not be having this discussion

[NewColtsFan]

Ask yourself this, If he was as good as some of you make him to be, Why wasn't he drafted by the Bucs or the Giants in bottom of the 1st round?  Both teams were in dire need of a TE. 

 

Both NYG and TB drafted RB's.   The teams took guys at a position where they touch the ball 15-20 times a game as opposed to TE where he might catch the ball 4-6 times a game.

 

You also need to ask yourself why he became the top rated TE in the draft.  Before the combine, Fleener wasn't the top rated TE.

 

First, when you say "why did he become the top rated TE in the draft, I suspect he was for some teams, but not all.   Every team sees this differently.     As for "before the combine..."   well,  draft ratings are completely fluid up until about a week or so before the draft.  So, someone moving up or down the board is not only not surprising,  it's normal.

 

 

If the Colts don't take him, IMO, it would have been in the latter part of the 2nd round.

 

Your guess is as good as mine.   But the Colts took him and I don't think they have to defend the pick.  Fleener had an OK rookie year followed by two solid seasons showing real improvement.    He finished 16th overall for tight ends in receptions, and 2nd in average yards per catch for tight ends.   Look at what Grigson did with his first draft.   After Luck,  his first three picks were all receivers.   And a tight end who can catch is a QB's best friend.   So,  I think what Grigson did was great and reasonable.

 

 

I agree, that I expect Fleener to get better, just haven't seen much progress from start of rookie till the end of this last season. 

 

Fleener has improved every year.   I'm not sure why you're not seeing it,  but you say you're not.   While he didn't catch more passes this year,  he caught them for a much, much higher yards per catch average than year 1 or year 2.    Coby has gotten better.   If you want him to get better,  so do I and so does he.

 

As for me calling him Luck's BFF, Fleener played with Luck at Stanford and IMO, if we don't draft Luck, we don't draft one dimensional TE like Fleener.

 

We'll never know, will we.....      But I don't know why you seem to suggest that taking him 34th overall was a reach?    There were no stories that I'm aware of that questioned why the Colts took him at 34....   That was roughly where he was projected....

 

[gacker65]

 

Ask yourself this, If he was as good as some of you make him to be, Why wasn't he drafted by the Bucs or the Giants in bottom of the 1st round?  Both teams were in dire need of a TE. 

 

Both NYG and TB drafted RB's.   The teams took guys at a position where they touch the ball 15-20 times a game as opposed to TE where he might catch the ball 4-6 times a game.

 

You also need to ask yourself why he became the top rated TE in the draft.  Before the combine, Fleener wasn't the top rated TE.

 

First, when you say "why did he become the top rated TE in the draft, I suspect he was for some teams, but not all.   Every team sees this differently.     As for "before the combine..."   well,  draft ratings are completely fluid up until about a week or so before the draft.  So, someone moving up or down the board is not only not surprising,  it's normal.

 

 

If the Colts don't take him, IMO, it would have been in the latter part of the 2nd round.

 

Your guess is as good as mine.   But the Colts took him and I don't think they have to defend the pick.  Fleener had an OK rookie year followed by two solid seasons showing real improvement.    He finished 16th overall for tight ends in receptions, and 2nd in average yards per catch for tight ends.   Look at what Grigson did with his first draft.   After Luck,  his first three picks were all receivers.   And a tight end who can catch is a QB's best friend.   So,  I think what Grigson did was great and reasonable.

 

 

I agree, that I expect Fleener to get better, just haven't seen much progress from start of rookie till the end of this last season. 

 

Fleener has improved every year.   I'm not sure why you're not seeing it,  but you say you're not.   While he didn't catch more passes this year,  he caught them for a much, much higher yards per catch average than year 1 or year 2.    Coby has gotten better.   If you want him to get better,  so do I and so does he.

 

As for me calling him Luck's BFF, Fleener played with Luck at Stanford and IMO, if we don't draft Luck, we don't draft one dimensional TE like Fleener.

 

We'll never know, will we.....      But I don't know why you seem to suggest that taking him 34th overall was a reach?    There were no stories that I'm aware of that questioned why the Colts took him at 34....   That was roughly where he was projected....

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree.  You are not going to change you opinion and I will not till I see more progression.from Fleener.

[gacker65]

The Gaints always preferred blocking TEs under Coughlin and Gilbride

And before the combine many had Fleener as the top pass catching TE

The whole BFF thing is silly. They drafted Fleener because they thought he was a good player.

You could be right about the Giants.  Does not explain the Bucs though. 

 

You are correct.  Fleener was not the top overall TE till after the combine, when Dwayne ran a slow 40.

 

IMO, Grigson was looking for instant chemistry between Luck and Fleener.  A security blanket of sorts because of them playing together in college.  Some people forget that we passed on a good O-lineman to draft Fleener.

[BOTT]

You could be right about the Giants.  Does not explain the Bucs though. 

 

You are correct.  Fleener was not the top overall TE till after the combine, when Dwayne ran a slow 40.

 

IMO, Grigson was looking for instant chemistry between Luck and Fleener.  A security blanket of sorts because of them playing together in college.  Some people forget that we passed on a good O-lineman to draft Fleener.

Your evidence is the mighty Buccaneers passed on Fleener? Guess what....the nfl draft isn't an exact science. 32 team passed on Tom Brady multiple times.

And I know your theory why Grigson drafted Fleener...you have been pushing that hogwash since he was drafted.

[Malakai432]

I"d buy that for a dollar!

Gotta love Robocop

[bap1331]

Sell. Allen has to stay healthy and Fleener needs to step up his play.

Lol he was the only one who stepped up against new england. If everyone would play like him we wouldve had a chance atleast.

[gacker65]

Lol he was the only one who stepped up against new england. If everyone would play like him we wouldve had a chance atleast.

One game out of , what 4 against Pats.  One or two games out all games in 3 seasons. 

 

All I have said is: 1. IMO, he is average in pass game. 

                            2. Does not block very good.

 

It is funny that some people on here uses 1 or 2 games to make a point, forgetting about the rest of the games he played in.

[theanarchist]

Add in Doyle and I think it's the best tightend group in the league.

Agree. Doyle is forgotten about but that guy can block which is a dying art form in the NFL especially among TE's

[Dark_Indy]

Wow, Gronk might be the ultimate mismatch in the nfl.....but u would rather have too pretty good players? I like both Fleener and Allen, but neither have proven to be anything special to this point.

 

Gronk is a fantastic tight end, but he and Wright are a far-cry from being the tandem NE had with Gronk and Hernandez a few years back.

 

 

 

Here's some stats from 2014.

 

Gronk ranked #1 in TD's from a Tight end, tied with Julius Thomas and Antonio Gates at 12

Fleener and Allen tied at 5th with 8 each.

Timothy Wright was 7th in the league with 6 TDs.

 

Receiving yards?

Gronk #1 among tight ends- just over 1100 

Fleener was 8th with 774

Allen was 23rd with 395

Wright was 31st with 259

 

 

Catches?

Gronkowsi #4 with 82 on the year

Fleener #16 with 51

Allen #26 with 29

Wright #29 with 26

 

I don't see what you're arguing? Having the best player at a position versus two very good players doesn't make much of a difference. Fleener and Allen had 30 less catches on the year than Gronk and Wright, and only had 2 less touchdowns. Not to mention, Gronk is the focal point of the Patriots offense- Fleener and Allen aren't the focus of the Colts offense. 

 

I'll take Fleener and Allen any day of the week.

[BOTT]

Gronk is a fantastic tight end, but he and Wright are a far-cry from being the tandem NE had with Gronk and Hernandez a few years back.

 

 

 

Here's some stats from 2014.

 

Gronk ranked #1 in TD's from a Tight end, tied with Julius Thomas and Antonio Gates at 12

Fleener and Allen tied at 5th with 8 each.

Timothy Wright was 7th in the league with 6 TDs.

 

Receiving yards?

Gronk #1 among tight ends- just over 1100 

Fleener was 8th with 774

Allen was 23rd with 395

Wright was 31st with 259

 

 

Catches?

Gronkowsi #4 with 82 on the year

Fleener #16 with 51

Allen #26 with 29

Wright #29 with 26

 

I don't see what you're arguing? Having the best player at a position versus two very good players doesn't make much of a difference. Fleener and Allen had 30 less catches on the year than Gronk and Wright, and only had 2 less touchdowns. Not to mention, Gronk is the focal point of the Patriots offense- Fleener and Allen aren't the focus of the Colts offense. 

 

I'll take Fleener and Allen any day of the week.

You think teams go into the colts think how the hell are we going to stop Fleener and Allen? They do with Gronk. He is the linchpin to the Patriots offense. You can post all the stats you want, but no one in their right mind would take Fleener and Allen over Gronkowsi....no one.

[Dark_Indy]

You think teams go into the colts think how the hell are we going to stop Fleener and Allen? They do with Gronk. He is the linchpin to the Patriots offense. You can post all the stats you want, but no one in their right mind would take Fleener and Allen over Gronkowsi....no one.

 

 

As ballyhooed as Gronk is, he and his backup aren't much better than Fleener and Allen. That's the point I'm trying to make. Is Gronk a gamewrecker? Sure- but you take him out of the game and what do the Patriots have at TE? 

 

The point I'm trying to make, is two very good players are better than one elite and one junk player. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[BigQandTheManiac]

Buy, but i'v heard rumors about new England may go after julius thomas...in that case i put Gronk and Thomas above them

[Dark_Indy]

Buy, but i'v heard rumors about new England may go after julius thomas...in that case i put Gronk and Thomas above them

 

I doubt New England can afford to buy Julius Thomas.

[BOTT]

As ballyhooed as Gronk is, he and his backup aren't much better than Fleener and Allen. That's the point I'm trying to make. Is Gronk a gamewrecker? Sure- but you take him out of the game and what do the Patriots have at TE? 

 

The point I'm trying to make, is two very good players are better than one elite and one junk player. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I know the point you were trying to make, but I simply disagree. In fact, I'm not convinced Fleener and Allen belong in the "very good" category. I like Fleener, but IMO, he is easily replaceable.

[BOTT]

Buy, but i'v heard rumors about new England may go after julius thomas...in that case i put Gronk and Thomas above them

Yeah, that's not going to happen

[Dark_Indy]

I know the point you were trying to make, but I simply disagree. In fact, I'm not convinced Fleener and Allen belong in the "very good" category. I like Fleener, but IMO, he is easily replaceable.

 

Really? 

 

The only guys who scored more touchdowns than Allen and Fleener this year were Gronk, Julius, Graham and Antonio Gates. Not to mention that Fleener had a 15.1 YPC average over 51 catches! That's insanity at the TE position. 

 

Easily replaceable by who? Who are you going to get that's going to replace Fleener? You definitely won't get one of the guys mentioned above. 

 

What grading system are you using on these guys? Christ you must be difficult to please.

[BOTT]

Really?

The only guys who scored more touchdowns than Allen and Fleener this year were Gronk, Julius, Graham and Antonio Gates. Not to mention that Fleener had a 15.1 YPC average over 51 catches! That's insanity at the TE position.

Easily replaceable by who? Who are you going to get that's going to replace Fleener? You definitely won't get one of the guys mentioned above.

What grading system are you using on these guys? Christ you must be difficult to please.

Wow, thanks for those stats I had no idea what Fleener's were /sarcasm

I would replace Fleener by playing Allen more and /or a draft pick

My grading system is my eye balls.

Well, you must easily impressed considering your enthusiasm the TRich trade and the signing of Landry.

I like Fleener, you just like him more....not a big deal.

[Dark_Indy]

Wow, thanks for those stats I had no idea what Fleener's were /sarcasm

I would replace Fleener by playing Allen more and /or a draft pick

My grading system is my eye balls.

Well, you must easily impressed considering your enthusiasm the TRich trade and the signing of Landry.

I like Fleener, you just like him more....not a big deal.

 

 

You may need to go get glasses. 

 

I doubt that there were many people that weren't interested by the TRich trade and the signing of Landry when they happened.

 

You can look back at them now and say they were bad moves. Hindsight is 20/20 (See what I did there?) 

 

Unfortunately, because Grigson hasn't won 3 consecutive Super Bowls and hit home runs on every player he signed- some people here just want to stand on the parapets and point fingers while cawing about how they would've done the job better.

[BOTT]

You may need to go get glasses. 

 

I doubt that there were many people that weren't interested by the TRich trade and the signing of Landry when they happened.

 

You can look back at them now and say they were bad moves. Hindsight is 20/20 (See what I did there?) 

 

Unfortunately, because Grigson hasn't won 3 consecutive Super Bowls and hit home runs on every player he signed- some people here just want to stand on the parapets and point fingers while cawing about how they would've done the job better.

Well, if you're bored feel free to dig the archives for my response to both transactions. Together they consisted of two words: puke and meh....so no, it's not 20/20 hindsight.

[ViriLudant]

Gronk is a fantastic tight end, but he and Wright are a far-cry from being the tandem NE had with Gronk and Hernandez a few years back.

Here's some stats from 2014.

Gronk ranked #1 in TD's from a Tight end, tied with Julius Thomas and Antonio Gates at 12

Fleener and Allen tied at 5th with 8 each.

Timothy Wright was 7th in the league with 6 TDs.

Receiving yards?

Gronk #1 among tight ends- just over 1100

Fleener was 8th with 774

Allen was 23rd with 395

Wright was 31st with 259

Catches?

Gronkowsi #4 with 82 on the year

Fleener #16 with 51

Allen #26 with 29

Wright #29 with 26

I don't see what you're arguing? Having the best player at a position versus two very good players doesn't make much of a difference. Fleener and Allen had 30 less catches on the year than Gronk and Wright, and only had 2 less touchdowns. Not to mention, Gronk is the focal point of the Patriots offense- Fleener and Allen aren't the focus of the Colts offense.

I'll take Fleener and Allen any day of the week.

This is s flawed argument, IMHO.

The Patriots moved away from the 2 TE set this past season.

If Wright played as many snaps as Allen, I'd argue that he'd be almost as productive.

Wright probably played 1/4th the snaps Allen did.

But what's important?

Allen = 8 TDs.

Wright = 6 TDs.

Pretty good for a guy who rarely got to be on the field.