PHI @ IND Post-game discussion: miscellaneous (including reffing)

[Zachris]

 The fact remains that the Eagles spanked  us in our stadium.  Luck is at best a mediocre QB - Good QBs find a way to win, and the Eagles D stopped Luck!  There were several holding calls against the Eagles that were not called, but typically it's the looser's that whine!  Come on Colts fans: we lost and let's get them next week.  The Eagles are a super bowl team while the Colts are going to struggle to make the playoffs!

 

Really?  Spanked us?  In our stadium?  Spanked?  Luck is mediocre QB?  I don't care what you say....Yes, the eagles made the 20/20 tie game.  But we responded with a TD.  Our defense responded with a stop, then our offense marched down the field again and was in scoring position.  True, maybe we should have ran it, instead of thrown the ball.  Point is, there was holding/pass interference that allowed the INT.  It wasn't like it just stopped us from getting a first down or something like that, but ALLOWED a turnover that should not have taken place.  THIS changed the game.  Then instead of also allowing a 3 to 5 yard tackle for a loss, we have the ref's give them another 15 for a call that never happened.  Back to back bad calls do not help any game and allowed the Eagles to stay in it.

 

The Eagles did NOT spank us.  Spanking means they destroyed you.  We lost by 3 points and the 10 extra points they received were allowed because of two bad calls by the Ref's.

 

When someone doesn't do their job, you are allowed to call them out.  You can call it whining or whatever, but the point is, they didn't do their job and they CHANGED the outcome of the game.

[Thewholefnshow28]

I don't blame the refs for the loss but for you to say get off the refs is wrong. Fans have a right to complain when obvious mistakes are made. That was defensive holding and a bogus horse collar no matter what your opinion is.

 

The problem with fans whining about the ref is because they stop whining when the calls go our way.  If the rolls were reversed the same fans who are bashing the refs now would be applauding the horse caller call and the non pass interference call.  Sure some level headed people would admit they were bad calls, but a majority of fans on here would say they were good calls.

 

The bottom line is we had our chances to win this game and we blew it.  We could not get pressure on Foles.  We could not tackle worth a lick out there and our offense had the ball with three minutes and a time ball game.

 

Our team must play better to not allow one or two bad calls to determine the game.

[Eagieboy]

Hey Eagles WON!!!!

[Dark_Indy]

The problem with fans whining about the ref is because they stop whining when the calls go our way.  If the rolls were reversed the same fans who are bashing the refs now would be applauding the horse caller call and the non pass interference call.  Sure some level headed people would admit they were bad calls, but a majority of fans on here would say they were good calls.

 

The bottom line is we had our chances to win this game and we blew it.  We could not get pressure on Foles.  We could not tackle worth a lick out there and our offense had the ball with three minutes and a time ball game.

 

Our team must play better to not allow one or two bad calls to determine the game.

 

 

That's still going to be tough considering the referees put 10 points up on the board for the eagles. There aren't many teams other than Denver that just flat don't care if you score a bonus 10 points.

[Le Neon]

We did enough to lose this game on our own. Im never comfortable blaming the refs.

That said, we had a pretty rough stretch of bad luck on this front. The call on Vontae, the non call for Hilton, the borderline non horsecollar lead to alot of late points. Usually the breaks go both ways. Not so last night.

[bonggoy]

I don't blame the refs for the loss but for you to say get off the refs is wrong. Fans have a right to complain when obvious mistakes are made. That was defensive holding and a bogus horse collar no matter what your opinion is.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2389062

 

• The committee expanded the definition of a horse collar tackle. Last year, the committee determined the tackling style of Cowboys safety Roy Williams and others was causing too many injuries. Williams would grab a player by the back of his shoulder pads, pull him down and fall on his legs, causing at least four serious injuries during the 2004 season. In 2005, though, only two "horse-collar" penalties were called. On Wednesday, owners voted in a change that will include grabbing the back of the jersey as a horse collar tackle. The vote was 25-7 in favor.

[Zachris]

We did enough to lose this game on our own. Im never comfortable blaming the refs.

That said, we had a pretty rough stretch of bad luck on this front. The call on Vontae, the non call for Hilton, the borderline non horsecollar lead to alot of late points. Usually the breaks go both ways. Not so last night.

 

I also have to an opinion we did enough to win that game also, had the Ref's called the first foul and the INT had not happened.

[theanarchist]

 The fact remains that the Eagles spanked  us in our stadium.  Luck is at best a mediocre QB - Good QBs find a way to win, and the Eagles D stopped Luck!  There were several holding calls against the Eagles that were not called, but typically it's the looser's that whine!  Come on Colts fans: we lost and let's get them next week.  The Eagles are a super bowl team while the Colts are going to struggle to make the playoffs!

??

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2389062

 

• The committee expanded the definition of a horse collar tackle. Last year, the committee determined the tackling style of Cowboys safety Roy Williams and others was causing too many injuries. Williams would grab a player by the back of his shoulder pads, pull him down and fall on his legs, causing at least four serious injuries during the 2004 season. In 2005, though, only two "horse-collar" penalties were called. On Wednesday, owners voted in a change that will include grabbing the back of the jersey as a horse collar tackle. The vote was 25-7 in favor.

If I remember correctly ESPN had the head of officiating come on and if I'm not mistaken he said it should not have been a penatly

[theanarchist]

The problem with fans whining about the ref is because they stop whining when the calls go our way.  If the rolls were reversed the same fans who are bashing the refs now would be applauding the horse caller call and the non pass interference call.  Sure some level headed people would admit they were bad calls, but a majority of fans on here would say they were good calls.

 

The bottom line is we had our chances to win this game and we blew it.  We could not get pressure on Foles.  We could not tackle worth a lick out there and our offense had the ball with three minutes and a time ball game.

 

Our team must play better to not allow one or two bad calls to determine the game.

I'm an equal opportunity whiner. Ive complained about how interference is being called this year, now how it isn't called. And yes some of those calls were in our favor. I also have been complaining about what the offensive linemen, especially the tackles, are getting away with this days.

[theanarchist]

That is not true.    I know this goes against popular opinion on this board but the line did a good job last night.  They had some miscues but they allowed no sacks and I counted 5 QB hurries, NFL has three.

 

I think the problem is the scheme, the olineman are doing their job but the scheme leaves guys unaccounted for on delayed blitzes and stunts.

Like in "tropic Thunder", I don't know what its called I just know what it looks like when it gets your QB killed. Luck is taking too many hits and having to move around too much in my opinion. Maybe some of it him holding the ball too long IDK but in my opinion if something doesn't change he's gonna hurt.

[Ryan Pelley]

I thought the Vontae PI call was pretty ticky tacky, along with the defensive holding on Luck's interception and the horse collar. Even after all of those, the Colts were in a position to pull out the win.  Awful, awful play calling throughout much of the second half and especially that final drive.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

Sorry to sound like a whiner but it's true. I'll be the first one to admit that our coaching and play calling was awful especially at the end of the game but the fact of the matter is that with so much on the line the refs pretty well gave Philly 10 points.

The no call on the defensive holding that caused the interception is mind boggling considering the tacky tack nature of the pass interference calls so far this year. Even Tirico and Gruden couldn't believe there was no call. Then they blow the call on the horse collar tackle which turns a 3 yard loss into a 15 yard gain and a 1st down.

It's really hard to swallow how the referees are now impacting the outcome of games. THe NFL has done it to itself. Too many things reviewable, too many things outlawed, and yet judgment calls are not reproachable. It's getting harder n harder for me to watch the pro game.

I feel the same way. It's hard for me to enjoy games.

[theanarchist]

I thought the Vontae PI call was pretty ticky tacky, along with the defensive holding on Luck's interception and the horse collar. Even after all of those, the Colts were in a position to pull out the win.  Awful, awful play calling throughout much of the second half and especially that final drive.

I forget what happened on the play but, but it was in the first half if I recall, Gruden and Tirico commented that it was a good "no call" because it "didn't effect the outcome of the play". Well, not only did the no call on TY play where the ball was intercepted effect the play it also effected the outcome of the game in my opinion because without a doubt we come away with points and the Eagles probably do not score that tying TD.

[JoKeR]

Not being able to correct game changing calls or missed calls( especially on turnovers ) hurts the credibility of the game. The Colts did nothing wrong on the play where Luck was intercepted, a Philly player dragged down TY and a another DB intercepted the pass that was going right to Hilton.

Just saying " refs make mistakes " isn't a valid excuse when we have the technology to reverse such mistakes. Shoulder shrugs isn't acceptable. Otherwise should teams start game planning against refs? Gotta make sure your up enough just incase refs start poo pooing all over the game?

[bonggoy]

??

 

If I remember correctly ESPN had the head of officiating come on and if I'm not mistaken he said it should not have been a penatly

 

What do you think after reading the article?

[theanarchist]

What do you think after reading the article?

I think it's an ESPN article that has about 6 sentences regarding the expansion of the rule and 2 sentences actually talking about the definition change. The fact of the matter is that the head of officiating said it shouldn't have been a penalty. When you read the end of the article it also says that the NFL issued a "6 page" explanation of the holding penalty as it pertains to the offensive line. What I'm getting at is that I doubt the article had enough detail to clearly say how the horse collar penalty is to be enforced. Also, the fact that the NFL has to issue a 6 page explanation regarding offensive holding is just absolutely ridiculous.

 

Its getting to be absolutely ridiculous what is and what isn't a penalty in the NFL. It is just unthinkable to me that if you are a defensive player that you cannot grab the back of the jersey and use it to tackle an offensive player. There has to be more to it than that.

[GoColts8818]

Get off the refs.  Luck's pick late in the 4th Q was not the ref's fault. Luck was locking onto receivers all night.  That was a tight window he was throwing into when a FG makes it a two possession game.  make the safer throw and take the FG.

 

We simply left too many plays on the field.

Had the guy not pulled down TY that's a completion or at the very least an incomplete pass so yes the no call by the ref, on something that is supposed to be a point of emphasis this year, very much so did help cause the INT. Now you can argue the Colts should have ran there and that holds more merit than the refs didn't cause the INT. If refs aren't going to call that last night then don't have the rule. It doesn't help that it came after a questionable PI call had gone against the Colts earlier. At the very least it was very inconsistent which is not acceptable.

Did the Colts make other mistakes sure and it's more than fair to point those out and discuss those as well, however, just because that's the case doesn't mean the bad calls by the officials are some how ok. They are not and the missed call on the guy pulling down Hilton is not acceptable. Colts fans, coaches, and players have every right to be upset over it as long the later two don't dwell on it and move on to trying to fix other problems which I am sure they will.

[GoColts8818]

??

 

If I remember correctly ESPN had the head of officiating come on and if I'm not mistaken he said it should not have been a penatly

also if you watch the play he a hold of more of the arm of his jersey. Also if you can't grab the back of the jersey now what about the Eagle who grabbed Hilton's jersey earlier in the game and used it to tackle him? I had no issue with it not being called because it's not a foul in my mind. However, if grabbing the back of someone's jersey and using it tackle him is a foul now then that should have been called too.

[bonggoy]

also if you watch the play he a hold of more of the arm of his jersey. Also if you can't grab the back of the jersey now what about the Eagle who grabbed Hilton's jersey earlier in the game and used it to tackle him? I had no issue with it not being called because it's not a foul in my mind. However, if grabbing the back of someone's jersey and using it tackle him is a foul now then that should have been called too.

 

Somebody in this forum mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) Jersey + when knee buckles.  

[GoColts8818]

Somebody in this forum mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) Jersey + when knee buckles.

thats what happened to TY.

[Yehoodi]

thats what happened to TY.

 

Was TY the one where he was grabbed by the jersey down near his waist? . . . I remember a colt being dragged from behind by the jersey, but the tug was from the torso area of the player  . . . so its not a horse collar tackle . . .

 

basically the horse collar tackle is when you grab from the top of the person, basically above the shoulder blades and yank the player down buckling his knees from behind . . . the original rule only limited to a grabs to only inside the shoulder pads where one can gain the most leverage and do the most damage, but when players were grabbing the jersey and/or the collar of the jersey and pulling the opponent in the same way, the NFL expanded the rule to prohibit anything that is in the shoulder area, which now includes, inside the shoulder pads (original), shoulder pads, side of shoulder pads, side of jersey pads, or jersey . . . basically any part of the opponents gear above the shoulder blades, basically where the name is . . .  

 

essentially if you grab in the shoulder area and yank the guy down from behind buckling his knees, the NFL does not now discriminate how or what you grab in that area as all gear in that area is off limits . . .

 

This additional to the rule has been in place for some time now and was sad to see some of the commentators on TV not know this . . .

 

bottom line you can't grab in the shoulder area and yank someone down from behind, but you can still grab in the torso area and pull/pull down from behind . . .

[Defjamz26]

The worst part is when you see the replay and the refs don't even bother to do anything about it. The DB clearly touched Hilton outside of 5 yards, so at the least it should have been illegal contact. I can understand if they don't want to call PI because maybe the fall was exaggerated, but no flag for illegal contact when they call that all the time now is unacceptable.

 

Something has to be done. It's one thing to get a call wrong, but the fact that there is no way to correct it is the real problem. The worst part is they are at their worst when the game is on the line late. Like last year in the NFC championship game when the 49ers were screwed. I know Goodell has a lot stacked on his plate now, but I expect there to be a big meeting on this soon. "We had every opportunity to win" only goes so far. The refs gifted the Eagles the game, even though we had a hand to play in it.

[Narcosys]

Get off the refs.  Luck's pick late in the 4th Q was not the ref's fault. Luck was locking onto receivers all night.  That was a tight window he was throwing into when a FG makes it a two possession game.  make the safer throw and take the FG.

 

We simply left too many plays on the field.  

 

Ummm....that was the safe throw.  It was a short slant/in route.  Luck was throwing to a spot, a spot that TY WOULD have been at, had he not been held and fell down. Idk how much safer you could get on that play...i dont even think there was a dump off.

[Bravo]

The fact remains that the Eagles spanked us in our stadium. Luck is at best a mediocre QB - Good QBs find a way to win, and the Eagles D stopped Luck! There were several holding calls against the Eagles that were not called, but typically it's the looser's that whine! Come on Colts fans: we lost and let's get them next week. The Eagles are a super bowl team while the Colts are going to struggle to make the playoffs!

EAGLES FAN!!! TROLL ALERT! (Member since today)

[Narcosys]

Somebody in this forum mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) Jersey + when knee buckles.  

Just because someone falls awkwardly, it doesnt make it a horse collar.  Horse collar is defined by grabbing of the pads down the neck area.  That is not what happened and therefore that ref is wrong and i hope it reflects by demotion or cost him money as they are assessed by their good and bad calls.

[Narcosys]

 The fact remains that the Eagles spanked  us in our stadium.  Luck is at best a mediocre QB - Good QBs find a way to win, and the Eagles D stopped Luck!  There were several holding calls against the Eagles that were not called, but typically it's the looser's that whine!  Come on Colts fans: we lost and let's get them next week.  The Eagles are a super bowl team while the Colts are going to struggle to make the playoffs!

[bonggoy]

Just because someone falls awkwardly, it doesnt make it a horse collar.  Horse collar is defined by grabbing of the pads down the neck area.  That is not what happened and therefore that ref is wrong and i hope it reflects by demotion or cost him money as they are assessed by their good and bad calls.

 

And saying so, doesn't change the rule as it's written.  

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/15_2013_Player_Conduct.pdf

 

Article 15: Horse-Collar Tackle. No player shall grab the inside collar of the back or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey 

pads or jersey, and pull the runner toward the ground. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a 

quarterback who is in the pocket. 

Note: It is not necessary for a player to pull the runner completely to the ground in order for the act to be illegal. If his knees 

are buckled by the action, it is a foul, even if the runner is not pulled completely to the ground. 

[dgambill]

That was a tough loss. To many threads of negativity for me to go into and read them all..I won't even try...but we got some unfortunate breaks last night. There are a couple calls that didn't go our way and that sucks when its late in the game and you can't over come it. That said we still could have stopped them from scoring and tying. We could have come back and scored....and we could have stopped them from kicking a fg. We failed 3 times after that so I can't sit here and say we deserved to win. We had our opportunities. That was a horse-collar tackle despite not getting his hand inside the shoulder pad...by definition it deserved a penalty..we just need to be in better position to make that tackle. We did a HORRIBLE job tackling outside a couple defensive lineman and Darius Butler. I will say there is a fine line on these pass interference plays where I go back and forth between liking the spot foul and wishing it was like college and doing a 15 yrd penalty. Some of those hand fighting calls etc seem pretty steep price to pay for a spot foul when a team throws it 50-60yds....that said I could see guys just tackling the reciever whenever they get beat. I think that rule still needs changed though not sure to what extent....seems to be overly critical to defenses even if it wasn't on purpose...maybe like a break away basket score in the nba. If it happens on the opposing side of the 50 and the receiver is grabbed from behind its a spot foul or something and otherwise its just a 15 yd penalty....and make it reviewable. I also think personal foul penalties should be reviewable if the referees deem necessary like NBA for different flagerancies...5yds if it was incidental and 15 if on purpose or if there was a fight to determine who gets the penalty and who not or if both (like who really starts it etc)or if someone should be ejected. To me those would be nice plays to review...it can be done very quickly and may not be necessary if the refs can determine on the field. I think its just a natural progression but with these things being reviewed in NY...it should be able to be done quickly. Just my observations.

[Narcosys]

 

And saying so, doesn't change the rule as it's written.  

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/15_2013_Player_Conduct.pdf

 

Article 15: Horse-Collar Tackle. No player shall grab the inside collar of the back or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey 

pads or jersey, and pull the runner toward the ground. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a 

quarterback who is in the pocket. 

Note: It is not necessary for a player to pull the runner completely to the ground in order for the act to be illegal. If his knees 

are buckled by the action, it is a foul, even if the runner is not pulled completely to the ground. 

 

If thats true about not grabbing the jersey, then 90% of all tackles are horse collars.

[bonggoy]

If thats true about not grabbing the jersey, then 90% of all tackles are horse collars.

 

No need to argue.  There is no changing your mind despite overwhelming evidence.  

 

Have a nice day.

[Narcosys]

No need to argue. There is no changing your mind despite overwhelming evidence.

Have a nice day.

Umm what? I wasn't arguing. Merely stating that as it's written, tons of tackles should be called for horse collaring.

Seems someone just wants to be a smart *.

Have a nice day.

[MCurtis32]

It has been proven that Major league soccer has been fixed for years. Soccer sucks so I don't care. Nascar now has a script it follows week to week. A lot like wrestling. Wives and girlfriends fighting in the pits ect. I stopped watching a couple years ago. Used to be the fastest car won. The NFL. Billions of dollars. Credibility a must. Let part time guys call games. Almost like the garbage man serving you breakfast at the waffle house. Instead of enjoying the game with your dad on the rabbit ears, now you pay 300+ dollars to hold your breath after every play looking for a flag. Too much money involved too be fair any more. 1958 Championship. Colts run Ameche off tackle for the win in overtime. A short field goal would had won it, But, the 6 covered the spread in vegas. The Colts were never going to win last nite.   

[krunk]

I completely agree!  It sure was nice to see the Colts completely dominating the game physically for a change.

 

 

Thanks!  I think we could also develop some good boot action off those counter plays as well.  A lot can be done to pick up easy first downs.  Now if we could only do anything about getting better pass rush we would be a very hard team to deal with. I'm very dissapointed in the pass rush, but I'm still trying to give this thing a chance because the two teams we've played get rid of the ball so fast it's a bit tough.

[bonggoy]

Umm what? I wasn't arguing. Merely stating that as it's written, tons of tackles should be called for horse collaring.

Seems someone just wants to be a smart *.

Have a nice day.

 

Yes, we are (or were) arguing.  We are presenting diverging views of the subject.  That is the definition of an argument.  

 

I'm bowing out as we are creating unnecessary noise to this thread.