Have The Polians Hurt Peytons Legacy?

[MoM]

By consistently putting poor talent around him? I think so. Poor offensive players whose names are known only due to Peytons abilities. Mediocore offensive lineman who have earned a paycheck due to Peyton being able to get rid of the ball so quickly. Poor to medicore defenses at times. Even historically bad defenses. God awful special teams any given year, nearly all.

The guy has succeeded and made the Colts and household name with basically no talent. Could you imagine how many rings this guy would have under an organization with proper coaching and drafting?

[GoColts8818]

I remember when people used to argue Brady was a better QB because he didn't have the weapons Peyton had now Peyton has no talent around him and according to some never has...

[presto123]

Absolutely!!!!!!! Same thing I've posted in other threads. With proper management capable of making adjustments and not letting egos get in the way Peyton probably has 2 or 3 rings by now. The Polian apologists would try and make you think otherwise but I think many are finally coming over to the other side. Polian built this team(that doesn't even look like an NFL team at the moment) and I think he should take the fall even before the coaches personally. Peyton covered up the fact that he hasn't been good in a long time and is really an average GM with an over inflated ego. We have had the same weaknesses for a decade(which is why so many early playoff exits) and he hasn't been able to fix it.

[MrPreGame]

YES

[MAC]

By consistently putting poor talent around him? I think so. Poor offensive players whose names are known only due to Peytons abilities. Mediocore offensive lineman who have earned a paycheck due to Peyton being able to get rid of the ball so quickly. Poor to medicore defenses at times. Even historically bad defenses. God awful special teams any given year, nearly all.

The guy has succeeded and made the Colts and household name with basically no talent. Could you imagine how many rings this guy would have under an organization with proper coaching and drafting?

Quite the contrary. First of all, you are insultingly underselling much of the talent on this team. More importantly, you are dismissing many facts, such as that Polian gambled in 2002 by changing the teams entire philosophy, and then rebuilt the entire team over time with the express purpose of maximizing Peyton's unique talents. They kept the OC that he was comfortable with despite changing head coaches (how often does that happen) and gave Peyton every resource imaginable to allow him to grow from the talented kid who couldn't win a playoff game or a cold weather game, into a four time MVP generally considered the greatest of all time. I was under the impression that they had succeeded to an unprecedented degree.

To use a year when Peyton isn't playing as the basemark to evaluate a squad that was designed to play with him is actually quite illogical. If Peyton were playing I'm confident that we would be Super Bowl contenders once again - just as Polian designed them to be. A fan can't ask for much more than that. And I also wouldn't assume that Peyton would be as effective as he is if he had gone to another team. On the Patriots, for instance, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to expand his contributions the way that he has. I doubt that he would have been given the opportunity to take a bathroom break without a permission slip from Belichick, much less evolved to the point where he is considered an OC on the field. Some people see the freedom the Colts have given him as a sign of the Colts weakness, when actually it is a brilliant act involving the subjugation of several egos. On a lousy team he might have been derailed by injury much earlier in his career, or never been given receivers that had the right skill set (ie: brains, hands, attitude) to allow Peyton to succeed. A running/defense oriented team might have limited his attempts - particularly in his formative years, or utterly deprived him of talented skill players. Peyton may improve those around him, but there is still a vast difference between Harrison/Edge/Wayne/Clark and most of their contemporaries. Peyton may not even HAVE the ability to make White and Tamme look competent if not for his years of experience with better players. He doesn't exist in a vacuum, he is a product of the cumulative total of every experience that he has had with the Colts organization.

And Polian runs the Colts organization.

You can nit-pick about a draft pick here or there, or a salary amount here or there, or a coach here an there, but in the salary cap era your options are limited. People should consider it remarkable that a GM who made his name before the salary cap was in place could so completely adapt to the realities of the current league, and figure out how to win all over again. The people who hate him may unfortunately find themselves looking back fondly when he is gone. And by the way, the point of naming his son GM isn't nepotism as self-aggrandizement. Why would Irsay want that? The purpose is to keep the systems in place (evaluating, drafting, deciding who to keep and pay, etc) that Polian helped perfect, and hopefully allow them to continue with the same consistency after he is gone. I can only hope.

[tonychen]

For the earlier part of peyton's career he benefited from some good talents around him. When he became the master of his game the talent level started to decline and polians failed to address the problems. The defense and special teams have always beem liabilities. So yes in the past half decade the team did not give their qb the best chance to win, and they have found all possible ways to eventually fail in the playoffs.

If peyton is traded to ravens or jets for the last 4 yrs of his career, he may end with two more sb rings.

[sb2001]

Quite the contrary. First of all, you are insultingly underselling much of the talent on this team. More importantly, you are dismissing many facts, such as that Polian gambled in 2002 by changing the teams entire philosophy, and then rebuilt the entire team over time with the express purpose of maximizing Peyton's unique talents. They kept the OC that he was comfortable with despite changing head coaches (how often does that happen) and gave Peyton every resource imaginable to allow him to grow from the talented kid who couldn't win a playoff game or a cold weather game, into a four time MVP generally considered the greatest of all time. I was under the impression that they had succeeded to an unprecedented degree.

To use a year when Peyton isn't playing as the basemark to evaluate a squad that was designed to play with him is actually quite illogical. If Peyton were playing I'm confident that we would be Super Bowl contenders once again - just as Polian designed them to be. A fan can't ask for much more than that. And I also wouldn't assume that Peyton would be as effective as he is if he had gone to another team. On the Patriots, for instance, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to expand his contributions the way that he has. I doubt that he would have been given the opportunity to take a bathroom break without a permission slip from Belichick, much less evolved to the point where he is considered an OC on the field. Some people see the freedom the Colts have given him as a sign of the Colts weakness, when actually it is a brilliant act involving the subjugation of several egos. On a lousy team he might have been derailed by injury much earlier in his career, or never been given receivers that had the right skill set (ie: brains, hands, attitude) to allow Peyton to succeed. A running/defense oriented team might have limited his attempts - particularly in his formative years, or utterly deprived him of talented skill players. Peyton may improve those around him, but there is still a vast difference between Harrison/Edge/Wayne/Clark and most of their contemporaries. Peyton may not even HAVE the ability to make White and Tamme look competent if not for his years of experience with better players. He doesn't exist in a vacuum, he is a product of the cumulative total of every experience that he has had with the Colts organization.

And Polian runs the Colts organization.

You can nit-pick about a draft pick here or there, or a salary amount here or there, or a coach here an there, but in the salary cap era your options are limited. People should consider it remarkable that a GM who made his name before the salary cap was in place could so completely adapt to the realities of the current league, and figure out how to win all over again. The people who hate him may unfortunately find themselves looking back fondly when he is gone. And by the way, the point of naming his son GM isn't nepotism as self-aggrandizement. Why would Irsay want that? The purpose is to keep the systems in place (evaluating, drafting, deciding who to keep and pay, etc) that Polian helped perfect, and hopefully allow them to continue with the same consistency after he is gone. I can only hope.

So You are saying these guys cannot play pro ball without PM ?

[Coltssouth]

I wish we had not lost our previous forum so I could bring back some of the threads from last season.

Peyton being out of course affects the way the team plays. It affects the timing, the way the players are used to performing. It is a big adjustment. It does not make them bad players.

I love Peyton, and I'm not saying he is not one of the best ever, but I don't see the rest of the team as garbage because he is not there.

[sb2001]

I think the polians have become stale. Bill was great in his prime, but experience has not been kind to him. I dont know if the high picks or just poor management of those picks are at fault, but alot of other teams have found GREAT talent in late rounds.

[sb2001]

I wish we had not lost our previous forum so I could bring back some of the threads from last season.

Peyton being out of course affects the way the team plays. It affects the timing, the way the players are used to performing. It is a big adjustment. It does not make them bad players.

I love Peyton, and I'm not saying he is not one of the best ever, but I don't see the rest of the team as garbage because he is not there.

Then whats you're opinion of why we have not won a game yet, and in some cases been BLOWN OUT!! (serious question, not being snarky)

[Coltssouth]

My opinion . . . it's the qb. We are a team built around a quarterback. Our defense has played their butt off this year. Our lack of a decent offense is what has hurt us.

[MAC]

So You are saying these guys cannot play pro ball without PM ?

No, I'm saying that the Colts are so "adapted" to playing with Peyton, that losing him affects everything else. It is like the way a lobster has evolved to derive a benefit from having one claw bigger than they other. If it got cut off, he might still be able to feed himself and survive, but he sure isn't going to be winning any fights. Magically replace it with a small claw and he still has a competitive disadvantage bad enough to make him lose every fight. Doesn't mean that his physical attributes aren't valuable in their own right, but they can't overcome that claw - at least not with only days to prepare between losing the big claw and his first fight.

The point is, judging Polian incompetent based on this is simply not fair. He did exactly what he set out to do, and the result has been the best years the Colts have ever had. If they were able to bring in Brady, Rodgers, or MAYBE a couple of others, then within a handful of games this team would likely have been a serious player once again - but that isn't realistic. You need time for the lobster to go in a different direction - be it evolving over time, or finding a much better weapon.

If you want a basis for judging Polian, think of it this way:

Lets pretend that Peyton retires. Where do you go from here? There's a million possibilities. It would be his (more so Chris going forward, but you know what I mean) job to respond. Do they decide that the current talent is good enough to simply use PMs cap space (and the draft picks) on reinforcements, and try to pick up where they left off? (I'd think that that would depend on whether they think there is "the right" QB available. Maybe Luck isn't it.) Or do they strip down and rebuild. I have no idea which option is preferable, but under the first option I would expect them to field a playoff contender next year. In the second option it might take 2-3 years. If instead the team just floundered and became irrelevant with no signs of turning it around, then you would have an argument.

[smittywerb]

To answer the question, no. Peyton has cemented his legacy as one of the GOAT. Now, has Polian dropped the ball when it comes to Peyton.....YES! If Peyton had a NEAR complete team, he would have multiple rings. Peyton doesn't even need a complete team, just give him a near complete team it you can guarantee a #1 seed in the playoffs. Polian has failed Peyton.

[GoGoColts]

Bill Polian's track record has been to create teams that can win consistently, but not be dominant enough to win Superbowls.

However, Dungy was both a legitimate coach and talent evaluator. I think that we can't minimize his abilities. The fatal mistake of the colts is that they failed to invest in the offensive and defensive lines at all.

[Coltsman1788]

Quite the contrary. First of all, you are insultingly underselling much of the talent on this team. More importantly, you are dismissing many facts, such as that Polian gambled in 2002 by changing the teams entire philosophy, and then rebuilt the entire team over time with the express purpose of maximizing Peyton's unique talents. They kept the OC that he was comfortable with despite changing head coaches (how often does that happen) and gave Peyton every resource imaginable to allow him to grow from the talented kid who couldn't win a playoff game or a cold weather game, into a four time MVP generally considered the greatest of all time. I was under the impression that they had succeeded to an unprecedented degree.

To use a year when Peyton isn't playing as the basemark to evaluate a squad that was designed to play with him is actually quite illogical. If Peyton were playing I'm confident that we would be Super Bowl contenders once again - just as Polian designed them to be. A fan can't ask for much more than that. And I also wouldn't assume that Peyton would be as effective as he is if he had gone to another team. On the Patriots, for instance, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to expand his contributions the way that he has. I doubt that he would have been given the opportunity to take a bathroom break without a permission slip from Belichick, much less evolved to the point where he is considered an OC on the field. Some people see the freedom the Colts have given him as a sign of the Colts weakness, when actually it is a brilliant act involving the subjugation of several egos. On a lousy team he might have been derailed by injury much earlier in his career, or never been given receivers that had the right skill set (ie: brains, hands, attitude) to allow Peyton to succeed. A running/defense oriented team might have limited his attempts - particularly in his formative years, or utterly deprived him of talented skill players. Peyton may improve those around him, but there is still a vast difference between Harrison/Edge/Wayne/Clark and most of their contemporaries. Peyton may not even HAVE the ability to make White and Tamme look competent if not for his years of experience with better players. He doesn't exist in a vacuum, he is a product of the cumulative total of every experience that he has had with the Colts organization.

And Polian runs the Colts organization.

You can nit-pick about a draft pick here or there, or a salary amount here or there, or a coach here an there, but in the salary cap era your options are limited. People should consider it remarkable that a GM who made his name before the salary cap was in place could so completely adapt to the realities of the current league, and figure out how to win all over again. The people who hate him may unfortunately find themselves looking back fondly when he is gone. And by the way, the point of naming his son GM isn't nepotism as self-aggrandizement. Why would Irsay want that? The purpose is to keep the systems in place (evaluating, drafting, deciding who to keep and pay, etc) that Polian helped perfect, and hopefully allow them to continue with the same consistency after he is gone. I can only hope.

Nice post! Bill Polian isn't without his faults but the Colts franchise has had more success under his tenure than under any other GM I have seen in my 30+ years of following this team. He drafted Peyton and gave him the tools and coaches (Tom Moore) etc. that allowed him to make his mark on this league. Without Tom Moore, Peyton probably wouldn't be the QB he is today. Some folks need to stop acting like Peyton was all self-made, Coming out of college, some scouts felt that Peyton had already hit his cap in college and didn't have much more room to develop in the NFL. Little did they know that with the Colts, Peyton would be given the coaching, system, freedom & latitude to revolutionalize the position with his genius. Bill Polian helped to set that conducive environment for Peyton when he got here.

I was with you all the way up until the Chris Polian stuff. I reserve my opinion on CP until I see more from him to evaluate him on his own merits, right now he seems to be where he is due to riding his daddy's coat tails but time will tell. But +1 because of all the other points that you nailed regarding Bill Polian.

[Coltsman1788]

Bill Polian's track record has been to create teams that can win consistently, but not be dominant enough to win Superbowls.

However, Dungy was both a legitimate coach and talent evaluator. I think that we can't minimize his abilities. The fatal mistake of the colts is that they failed to invest in the offensive and defensive lines at all.

Another good point. +1 GoGo. Dungy and his scheme did enough for the Colts defense to allow Peyton to finally secure his first playoff win and eventually a Lombardi a few years later. Without him Peyton might have been ringless in Indy. Dungy's leadership and influence has been underated by some fans in my opinion. To me the Colts collapse is also due to the cummulative effect of the withering away of a strong Colts coaching staff (Dungy, Tom Moore, Howard Mudd, etc.) as well as 18's absence. Peyton wasn't so upset when these changes were announced for nothing. Manning has covered up for the liabilities of our current coaching staff and without him we are seeing that they are incapable of coaching this team to a win.

My main criticism of Polian is with our current coaching staff and our perenial weakness on defense & special teams. Like I said above he is not without his faults. Hopefully he will at least rectify the coaching situation in the offseason.

[mahagga73]

By consistently putting poor talent around him? I think so. Poor offensive players whose names are known only due to Peytons abilities. Mediocore offensive lineman who have earned a paycheck due to Peyton being able to get rid of the ball so quickly. Poor to medicore defenses at times. Even historically bad defenses. God awful special teams any given year, nearly all.

The guy has succeeded and made the Colts and household name with basically no talent. Could you imagine how many rings this guy would have under an organization with proper coaching and drafting?

yes,they have generally failed to put together a defense capable of winning in the playoffs,the oline has slipped badly the last few years,and they seem to not care about special teams or finding a returner who does more than fair catch.Contrary to popular belief these concerns have been raised by Colt fans for a long time.It has always been generally agreed this team is lucky to win 1 game without Peyton.It should not be like that I don't care how many star contracts there are on the team.More recently questionable personnel decisions like Chris inheriting the throne of the GM by blood and hiring a losing coach because he knows the system have killed the team.

[jskinnz]

By consistently putting poor talent around him? I think so. Poor offensive players whose names are known only due to Peytons abilities. Mediocore offensive lineman who have earned a paycheck due to Peyton being able to get rid of the ball so quickly. Poor to medicore defenses at times. Even historically bad defenses. God awful special teams any given year, nearly all.

The guy has succeeded and made the Colts and household name with basically no talent. Could you imagine how many rings this guy would have under an organization with proper coaching and drafting?

Isn't the very premise of this thread misleading. In fact if what you say is accurate, which it is not, but just for arguments sake, doesn't it improve Manning's legacy? If they won more games than any team in any decade in the history of the game despite what the Polians "did" to the franchise, wouldn't that be a testimony to Manning's greatness?

[Fatboyslim11]

My opinion . . . it's the qb. We are a team built around a quarterback. Our defense has played their butt off this year. Our lack of a decent offense is what has hurt us.

You sure it isn't just bad luck or the stars being misaligned or a wandering black cat or...?

[Coltssouth]

Or all of these darned falling satellites! Why didn't I think of that?

Thanks!

[coltfaninnewyork]

No,they strengthened it.This team is on the fast track to 0-16 without him.

[chad72]

You just have to see how Peyton did with Jerome Pathon and Green and those caliber of WRs and compare it to the Wayne and Clark kind of receiving options and tell me the difference in productivity. So, yes, Peyton needed quality play around him to run all the stuff Moore wanted him to run, that is the offensive side of things. So, Polian had a lot to do with maximizing what the team had in Peyton, that is how I look at it.

The defensive side - Polian has always been known to accomodate what his coaches want w.r.t a system they wanted to run. Dungy wanted the smaller undersized but faster players and that philosophy worked as long as we were playing ahead, which we were when we played less than elite Ds that were able to limit Peyton and their Os able to play ball control. In fact, I wish Polian had been more stubborn there and told Dungy that we needed bigger DTs in the middle and bigger LBs which could have complemented Dungy's system. If that is attributed as a Polian fault, accomodating his head coach's defensive system, yes, he was at fault there.

My biggest complaints with Polian were three fold:

1. The end of season strategies with a timing offense we played - it had to be viewed separately for the offense and defense, IMO; the offense needed constant reps even if it were for half of a game while the undersized D needed the rest to play fresh. 2005 - regardless of Dungy's son's death, there was no reason to shut it down after the Chargers' loss, IMO. That 2005 team was probably our best balanced team and we would not have been rusty vs the Steelers and that was our only and best SB chance that I can honestly say that we let slip away.
   
2. Relying on Peyton's quick release to get by with lower round O-line picks and missing on O-line picks when we did draft them - Scott and Diem in rounds 4 or later, Saturday UDFA from Ravens, Glenn was inherited, Lilja from free agency, that is one key area Polian did not have expertise and should have done better. Our O-line may have been good for a whole season but it could have been better vs the elite teams, we consistently came up short, whether it was vs the blitzing of the Steelers in the 2005 playoff loss, or inability to run vs the Pats in 2003 & 2004. We may have saved Peyton's arm from throwing 40-50 times consistently in the years 2008-2010 if we had drafted well with higher O-line picks that would have allowed us to deal with the losses of Glenn, Scott and Lilja better.
   
3. Letting special teams' play be a stepchild and not make moves to fix it by getting better coaches and players consistently. The 2008 Chargers playoff loss and 2009 Saints SB loss were 2 of the 3 lowest field position for playoff games for a team in the past 20 years (both Colts) with the 2008 Scifres'-and-Sproles-nightmare game being the worst. Our SB run - giving Ellis Hobbs' consistent good field position for the Pats in the AFCCG, then the Devin Hester opening kickoff in the SB, we won despite our SB deficiencies because our team was really SB worthy and played that good in the SB run (of course, not kicking to Hester did help, why did we not do that with Sproles???).
   

[GoGoColts]

My main criticism of Polian is with our current coaching staff and our perenial weakness on defense & special teams. Like I said above he is not without his faults. Hopefully he will at least rectify the coaching situation in the offseason.

Special teams has been a huge problem. We have always tried to go after good kickers/punters, but the blocking, tackling, and running is terrible. Could you imagine what this team could have done with good field position rather than the worst after kickoffs?

[Blue Horseshoe]

My opinion . . . it's the qb. We are a team built around a quarterback. Our defense has played their butt off this year. Our lack of a decent offense is what has hurt us.

I guess there might be a world where being the 2nd worst defense of the Super Bowl era is considered a team playing its butt off but I have never seen it.

[luvdacolts67]

Absolutely!!!!!!! Same thing I've posted in other threads. With proper management capable of making adjustments and not letting egos get in the way Peyton probably has 2 or 3 rings by now. The Polian apologists would try and make you think otherwise but I think many are finally coming over to the other side. Polian built this team(that doesn't even look like an NFL team at the moment) and I think he should take the fall even before the coaches personally. Peyton covered up the fact that he hasn't been good in a long time and is really an average GM with an over inflated ego. We have had the same weaknesses for a decade(which is why so many early playoff exits) and he hasn't been able to fix it.

Could not agree more. I have been saying this for a long time. We have known what the problem has been for years but never fixed it. I feel sorry for Manning because he is the greatest of all time and could have won many SB.

[Coltssouth]

Good post

[SanAntonioColt]

I wish we had not lost our previous forum so I could bring back some of the threads from last season.

Peyton being out of course affects the way the team plays. It affects the timing, the way the players are used to performing. It is a big adjustment. It does not make them bad players.

I love Peyton, and I'm not saying he is not one of the best ever, but I don't see the rest of the team as garbage because he is not there.

The Patties had a winning record without Brady. The Rams were able to win when Trent Green went down. The Colts won when Johnny U. replaced George Shaw and there are many others. For the most part, they are bad-to-average players and Peyton covered for their mediocrity.

Whether the team is garbage or not, they're playing like garbage and it's because Peyton's not there.

[Coltssouth]

Yes the Pats did. Personally I am tired of comparing our team to them as a standard of what a team should be.

We are not winning and no one is happy about that but saying the whole team sucks, the coaching staff, and the gm's suck (and of course the defense sucks) is not true imo.

There are many good things and many good players on this team.

The difference in the attitude of the fans between winning and losing astounds me. The negativity about the team astounds me.

Sure there are problems and everyone has an opinion of what they are, but I think sometimes it gets a little carried away on what can be realisticaly accomplished on a team.

[manningstheman]

Quite the contrary. First of all, you are insultingly underselling much of the talent on this team. More importantly, you are dismissing many facts, such as that Polian gambled in 2002 by changing the teams entire philosophy, and then rebuilt the entire team over time with the express purpose of maximizing Peyton's unique talents. They kept the OC that he was comfortable with despite changing head coaches (how often does that happen) and gave Peyton every resource imaginable to allow him to grow from the talented kid who couldn't win a playoff game or a cold weather game, into a four time MVP generally considered the greatest of all time. I was under the impression that they had succeeded to an unprecedented degree.

To use a year when Peyton isn't playing as the basemark to evaluate a squad that was designed to play with him is actually quite illogical. If Peyton were playing I'm confident that we would be Super Bowl contenders once again - just as Polian designed them to be. A fan can't ask for much more than that. And I also wouldn't assume that Peyton would be as effective as he is if he had gone to another team. On the Patriots, for instance, he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to expand his contributions the way that he has. I doubt that he would have been given the opportunity to take a bathroom break without a permission slip from Belichick, much less evolved to the point where he is considered an OC on the field. Some people see the freedom the Colts have given him as a sign of the Colts weakness, when actually it is a brilliant act involving the subjugation of several egos. On a lousy team he might have been derailed by injury much earlier in his career, or never been given receivers that had the right skill set (ie: brains, hands, attitude) to allow Peyton to succeed. A running/defense oriented team might have limited his attempts - particularly in his formative years, or utterly deprived him of talented skill players. Peyton may improve those around him, but there is still a vast difference between Harrison/Edge/Wayne/Clark and most of their contemporaries. Peyton may not even HAVE the ability to make White and Tamme look competent if not for his years of experience with better players. He doesn't exist in a vacuum, he is a product of the cumulative total of every experience that he has had with the Colts organization.

And Polian runs the Colts organization.

You can nit-pick about a draft pick here or there, or a salary amount here or there, or a coach here an there, but in the salary cap era your options are limited. People should consider it remarkable that a GM who made his name before the salary cap was in place could so completely adapt to the realities of the current league, and figure out how to win all over again. The people who hate him may unfortunately find themselves looking back fondly when he is gone. And by the way, the point of naming his son GM isn't nepotism as self-aggrandizement. Why would Irsay want that? The purpose is to keep the systems in place (evaluating, drafting, deciding who to keep and pay, etc) that Polian helped perfect, and hopefully allow them to continue with the same consistency after he is gone. I can only hope.

Yawn, can someone wake me up.

Seriously, If you think this team shouldnt be able to win some games with out Peyton, this team is not a team then. No way they were going to win big games and get to the playoffs. I am sure no one thought that was going to happen. But, this team is just plain lousy. It shows that the Polians relied on Peyton to do everything. That is great for them. They can just give him some no name recievers.( Marvin was already there, and Wayne was never going to be a game changer, and Garcon...Really) They got really lucky with Clark, and thats it. They took Addai who had only been a running back in college. If you look at his stats at LSU, then were did they see his upside? He is no game changer either. The defense.. well this defense has only be able to suceed because Peyton was so good that they could run up scores and make the other team pass happy. This made Freeny and Mathis household names. So, yes this team should win a few games with out Peyton, but the Polians have surely messed this team up for years to come.

[manningstheman]

Yes the Pats did. Personally I am tired of comparing our team to them as a standard of what a team should be.

We are not winning and no one is happy about that but saying the whole team sucks, the coaching staff, and the gm's suck (and of course the defense sucks) is not true imo.

There are many good things and many good players on this team.

The difference in the attitude of the fans between winning and losing astounds me. The negativity about the team astounds me.

Sure there are problems and everyone has an opinion of what they are, but I think sometimes it gets a little carried away on what can be realisticaly accomplished on a team.

Its no just the losing, it the no winning that is getting the fans p/oed. By not even winning 1 game at this point in the season, the fans have actually woke up to the fact that this franchise is in major trouble. If Peytong doesnt come back full strength this team will be in the dog house for a few years to come. Luck wll not beable to change that.

[jskinnz]

Yawn, can someone wake me up.

Seriously, If you think this team shouldnt be able to win some games with out Peyton, this team is not a team then. No way they were going to win big games and get to the playoffs. I am sure no one thought that was going to happen. But, this team is just plain lousy. It shows that the Polians relied on Peyton to do everything. That is great for them. They can just give him some no name recievers.( Marvin was already there, and Wayne was never going to be a game changer, and Garcon...Really) They got really lucky with Clark, and thats it. They took Addai who had only been a running back in college. If you look at his stats at LSU, then were did they see his upside? He is no game changer either. The defense.. well this defense has only be able to suceed because Peyton was so good that they could run up scores and make the other team pass happy. This made Freeny and Mathis household names. So, yes this team should win a few games with out Peyton, but the Polians have surely messed this team up for years to come.

I have run out of negative credits for the day so take this post as my negative rep to you.

[braveheartcolt]

I have run out of negative credits for the day so take this post as my negative rep to you.

Why? Thrill me with your acumen Agent Starling. That reply was a cop out.........you are better than that.

[Coltssouth]

Actually I gave Jskinnz a +1 for that post which was negated by a negative from another poster.

Yawn? I thought Mac made a very good post with very good points. We're not winning. That is a fact. It is not the end of the world.

Personally I don't want Andrew Luck. Not because I know anything about him but because I am sick of hearing about him.

[braveheartcolt]

Actually I gave Jskinnz a +1 for that post which was negated by a negative from another poster.

Yawn? I thought Mac made a very good post with very good points. We're not winning. That is a fact. It is not the end of the world.

Personally I don't want Andrew Luck. Not because I know anything about him but because I am sick of hearing about him.

So, irrespective of how good a player is, you don't want us to take him, because you are sick of hearing about him? I'm sure Manning was the Talk of the Town in 98, and look how that turned out. Very poor.

And I never said it was the end of the world, just that we are not going to bring back the good times with this washed up FO and coaching staff. We see it differently, but that's what the forum is about.

But really, Caldwell and Coyer?

[Coltssouth]

So, irrespective of how good a player is, you don't want us to take him, because you are sick of hearing about him?

I'm not saying he is not a good player, but he is not on our team, and yes I am sick of hearing about him. If he is drafted as a member of this team I will support him 100% but unless or until he is the members we have now are the ones I'm am concerned with. Not him.

And I never said it was the end of the world

That was not meant as a personal statement to you, just an over-all comment on the opinions I have seen on the forum.

No offense intended.

[braveheartcolt]

That was not meant as a personal statement to you, just an over-all comment on the opinions I have seen on the forum.

No offense intended.

None taken. I understand. I don't want Luck, I want 18 back, nice and healthy, but we really do need to need to fix the D, and that begins with the HC and DC.

[GoColts8818]

Bill Polian's track record has been to create teams that can win consistently, but not be dominant enough to win Superbowls.

However, Dungy was both a legitimate coach and talent evaluator. I think that we can't minimize his abilities. The fatal mistake of the colts is that they failed to invest in the offensive and defensive lines at all.

They traded a first round for a Olineman in 07, they then took three o-lineman in the next draft. They took a guy last year who was supposed to be developed into a guard. They have tried signining countless free agents since then for the o-line. They drafted a blocking tightend to help the o-line out last year and then this year signed a full back for the same purpose as well as useing our first two picks on the o-line.

On defense they signed Corey Simon, didn't work out, traded for Booger and had it work great till he got hurt. Also lost that season was Reagor was also hurt in something that didn't even happen football field. They drafted Pitcock only have to him quit on them after one season. They tried to trade for McCargo and he failed the physical. Over that time they also drafted no fewer than five DTs (including Moala with a second rounder and Nevis with a third rounder with fairly high picks) not counting Pitcock and signed Johnson and Muir to try to help with the DT spot. They also took a flyer on Harris only to have him not work out because of his attitude and they also gave Ed Johnson not one but two chances.

I think it's safe to say the Colts struggles at the o-line and d-line spots are not a result of them failing to invest in them. In fact I would argue since the Super Bowl win they have invisted more there than any other spot on the team. Now with that said you can clearly argue their investments have not worked out and you would be right but they aren't failing to invest in them.

[braveheartcolt]

They traded a first round for a Olineman in 07, they then took three o-lineman in the next draft. They took a guy last year who was supposed to be developed into a guard. They have tried signining countless free agents since then for the o-line. They drafted a blocking tightend to help the o-line out last year and then this year signed a full back for the same purpose as well as useing our first two picks on the o-line.

On defense they signed Corey Simon, didn't work out, traded for Booger and had it work great till he got hurt. Also lost that season was Reagor was also hurt in something that didn't even happen football field. They drafted Pitcock only have to him quit on them after one season. They tried to trade for McCargo and he failed the physical. Over that time they also drafted no fewer than five DTs (including Moala with a second rounder and Nevis with a third rounder with fairly high picks) not counting Pitcock and signed Johnson and Muir to try to help with the DT spot. They also took a flyer on Harris only to have him not work out because of his attitude and they also gave Ed Johnson not one but two chances.

I think it's safe to say the Colts struggles at the o-line and d-line spots are not a result of them failing to invest in them. In fact I would argue since the Super Bowl win they have invisted more there than any other spot on the team. Now with that said you can clearly argue their investments have not worked out and you would be right but they aren't failing to invest in them.

Tremendous recall, and you are spot on. But with a GM of the Decade, and having tried so hard and to have failed, doesnt that suggest Mr P is not so good? Trying and failing is not a recipe for kudos....

[MAC]

Yawn, can someone wake me up.

Seriously, If you think this team shouldnt be able to win some games with out Peyton, this team is not a team then. No way they were going to win big games and get to the playoffs. I am sure no one thought that was going to happen. But, this team is just plain lousy. It shows that the Polians relied on Peyton to do everything. That is great for them. They can just give him some no name recievers.( Marvin was already there, and Wayne was never going to be a game changer, and Garcon...Really) They got really lucky with Clark, and thats it. They took Addai who had only been a running back in college. If you look at his stats at LSU, then were did they see his upside? He is no game changer either. The defense.. well this defense has only be able to suceed because Peyton was so good that they could run up scores and make the other team pass happy. This made Freeny and Mathis household names. So, yes this team should win a few games with out Peyton, but the Polians have surely messed this team up for years to come.

Initially I was quite insulted by your first line, then I read the rest of your post and understood completely. It's OK, really. I'm so sorry if I made your brain hurt. I'll be more careful next time.

[MAC]

I was with you all the way up until the Chris Polian stuff. I reserve my opinion on CP until I see more from him to evaluate him on his own merits, right now he seems to be where he is due to riding his daddy's coat tails but time will tell. But +1 because of all the other points that you nailed regarding Bill Polian.

Call it wishful thinking. I'm HOPING that "the system" will carry forward, but there are obviously no guarantees. However the man has spent his entire life absorbing everything Sr has to say - and despite the "act", Irsay is no fool. The fact that Chris was promoted leads me to the conclusion that he earned it. Seems pretty logical to me. I get a bit miffed at all the denigrating comments suggesting that the entire future of the Colts organization is based on Bill Polian egotistically manipulating people for his personal satisfaction. What's wrong with what the Colts did? Would the Ryan brothers (whom many people droll over as potential Colts coaches) be where they are without their father? Would Belichick be where he is without his father? People just prefer to see something ugly and negative, where personally I see something pretty cool. I'm hoping that we got lucky, and are set in the front office for another 20+ years. Only time will tell.