Gordy signs tender, Costa retires (won't get any money) [Merge]

[Gavin]

How did you whiff on Warford.

 

He went toward the top of the 3rd round and my understanding is he had a pretty good year as a rookie....

 

Where's the whiff?

Oops....Forgot for a minute where he went in that draft actually, I was thinking bottom of the 1st for some reason, I should have looked it up again, I liked him but some wanted him at the bottom of the 1st, Thats a bit rich for my blood, I would have liked him in the 2nd

[Superman]

Oops....Forgot for a minute where he went in that draft actually, I was thinking bottom of the 1st for some reason, I should have looked it up again, I liked him but some wanted him at the bottom of the 1st, Thats a bit rich for my blood, I would have liked him in the 2nd

 

Yeah, Warford is one of the ones you got right. He wasn't really in our range, but it would have been nice to have him. 

[BrentMc11]

How did you whiff on Warford.

 

He went toward the top of the 3rd round and my understanding is he had a pretty good year as a rookie....

 

Where's the whiff?

There we tons of arguments on Warford....i was with him all the way.  I loved the way he blocked his man down the field until the whistle blew...

 

I whiffed on one of the D linemen and I forgot his name

[NewColtsFan]

Oops....Forgot for a minute where he went in that draft actually, I was thinking bottom of the 1st for some reason, I should have looked it up again, I liked him but some wanted him at the bottom of the 1st, Thats a bit rich for my blood, I would have liked him in the 2nd

 

I think the guy you whiffed on was the Lions 1st round pick...  Ansah.    I think he played very well for them.

 

I believe you thought he was way too raw, unrefined and just not worth of being a top-10 pick.

 

The Lions gambled....   Ansah could've flopped.   But I think it's turned out pretty good for them....

[ztboiler]

Holmes not having reps isn't alarming to me, because I don't take that as an indication of how the staff feels about him. The fact that we cut the previous starter and didn't sign an outside replacement is much more indicative, IMO. As Holmes himself said, 2013 was a redshirt year, and the benefits that can conceivably come with that were iterated above. Doesn't mean he's a surefire replacement, but it does give reason for some optimism. And again, young players with less pedigree and experience than Holmes start at interior line, including center, all the time. 

BDLP is an interesting case study that seems to support your point.  Thought by many, in the media and on this board, to be a plus performer on a solid line, he signed a one year deal with the bears for Vet minimum and a $65K signing bonus.  He became, essentially, a player that none of the center needy teams wanted after a few years of solid play at age 28.  That tells us that what he accomplished in his level of play is no big deal to NFL decision-makers (including Grigs) at the center position and it is easy to replicate with a newly installed piece.  The Saints, even in there cap quandry, could have easily fit him back in for Vet min....and it would seem that they didn't even try (circumstantially).

 

All this should tell us that it is not a big risk to get the same caliber of center play from Holmes this year as was available on the free agent center market.  Doesn't mean we will, but Grigs and his NFL brethren are giving us a lot of information to project with.  In fact, it also tells us that there is a reasonable chance that you could plug Thomas Austin into the Saints center position and get similar results.

 

We could also wonder if BDLP's agent did him any favors by having him sign a contract prior to the draft when demand for his services in the secondary market was at the very lowest possible point...but that is a matter for a whole different conversation.

[Superman]

BDLP is an interesting case study that seems to support your point.  Thought by many, in the media and on this board, to be a plus performer on a solid line, he signed a one year deal with the bears for Vet minimum and a $65K signing bonus.  He became, essentially, a player that none of the center needy teams wanted after a few years of solid play at age 28.  That tells us that what he accomplished in his level of play is no big deal to NFL decision-makers (including Grigs) at the center position and it is easy to replicate with a newly installed piece.  The Saints, even in there cap quandry, could have easily fit him back in for Vet min....and it would seem that they didn't even try (circumstantially).

 

All this should tell us that it is not a big risk to get the same caliber of center play from Holmes this year as was available on the free agent center market.  Doesn't mean we will, but Grigs and his NFL brethren are giving us a lot of information to project with.  In fact, it also tells us that there is a reasonable chance that you could plug Thomas Austin into the Saints center position and get similar results.

 

We could also wonder if BDLP's agent did him any favors by having him sign a contract prior to the draft when demand for his services in the secondary market was at the very lowest possible point...but that is a matter for a whole different conversation.

 

Yeah, the Saints have good guards, which makes BdlP's job easier. And they don't run a power scheme, so he's not asked to go straight up with defensive linemen. He's better in pass protection, and had a really good year in 2012, but was average in 2013. Nothing special about him. I'd have taken him as a reserve, especially for minimum, but the way the Saints pretty much turned their nose up at him says a lot. 

 

And really, the center position isn't known for having big, powerful, athletic players. You get more squatty guys, sometimes with short arms, the guys who can't play guard because they aren't powerful enough, and can't play tackle because they're not big enough. The best centers are heady guys who fight hard, but they usually aren't physically dominant. That might be changing, with young players like the Pounceys and Frederick, who are big and powerful. But most teams make due with guys who would be rejects at other positions. Holmes doesn't have the power those guys have, but he does have similar size (and reports say he's put on some muscle over the last year, which makes sense). And he's a smart guy. Physically, he's what you would expect as a center prospect.

 

What's going to be important for us -- more important than who our center is, IMO -- is the play of the guards. Which is why HBA being concerned about Donald Thomas (and the injury plagued backups we have behind him) makes sense. If we can get someone like John Urschel or Russell Bodine late in the draft, that would add some swing depth to replace what we lost in Costa. But I understand feeling underwhelmed with Grigson's approach with regard to veteran depth. My sticking point is that I don't agree that he's "ignored" the offensive line. He chose to sign low cost guys with question marks, rather than rock solid starting caliber players. So I think people should say that they don't like his approach, rather than pretend that he hasn't done anything.

[Superman]

I am always cheap....except my classes  Old cheap retiree...BrentMc.....hey that rhymes!!

 

Costa could have been extremely excited in the room.  You are correct....if you are not in the room it is easy to be a critic.

 

 

We all have our life experience to filter circumstantial evidence with.  Having spent that much of your life in an interview room then you appreciate not only the art of the business, but how often even the elite of hiring managers will be wrong.

 

You could be right, and Grigs may have missed something....or there could be a lot more going on behind the scenes in Costa's life than we can see on the surface.  Either way, I always appreciate your perpectives and life experiences woven into this forum.

 

I could get with this angle if we're talking about Travelle Wharton, a player who has openly discussed the possibility of retirement. Or even an older guy like Goodwin, whom many of us want/wanted. But a 26 year old who embraced free agency, to the point of flying in for a visit two days into free agency? And he had other visits as well. 

[esmort]

Yeah, the Saints have good guards, which makes BdlP's job easier. And they don't run a power scheme, so he's not asked to go straight up with defensive linemen. He's better in pass protection, and had a really good year in 2012, but was average in 2013. Nothing special about him. I'd have taken him as a reserve, especially for minimum, but the way the Saints pretty much turned their nose up at him says a lot. 

 

And really, the center position isn't known for having big, powerful, athletic players. You get more squatty guys, sometimes with short arms, the guys who can't play guard because they aren't powerful enough, and can't play tackle because they're not big enough. The best centers are heady guys who fight hard, but they usually aren't physically dominant. That might be changing, with young players like the Pounceys and Frederick, who are big and powerful. But most teams make due with guys who would be rejects at other positions. Holmes doesn't have the power those guys have, but he does have similar size (and reports say he's put on some muscle over the last year, which makes sense). And he's a smart guy. Physically, he's what you would expect as a center prospect.

 

What's going to be important for us -- more important than who our center is, IMO -- is the play of the guards. Which is why HBA being concerned about Donald Thomas (and the injury plagued backups we have behind him) makes sense. If we can get someone like John Urschel or Russell Bodine late in the draft, that would add some swing depth to replace what we lost in Costa. But I understand feeling underwhelmed with Grigson's approach with regard to veteran depth. My sticking point is that I don't agree that he's "ignored" the offensive line. He chose to sign low cost guys with question marks, rather than rock solid starting caliber players. So I think people should say that they don't like his approach, rather than pretend that he hasn't done anything.

 

I don't think he "ignored" the OL, and I don't doubt that in his mind he has "some sort" of "strategy" as you suggested ... but, personally I don't like his strategy.  I love the the fact he is a gambler and looks for the hidden gems with the mid to back end of our roster with guys like Adongo, McNary, Rogers, etc ... I hate when he "gambles" and "stays in with a bad hand" with core starters essential to our success like he has done with the OL.

[Superman]

I don't think he "ignored" the OL, and I don't doubt that in his mind he has "some sort" of "strategy" as you suggested ... but, personally I don't like his strategy.  I love the the fact he is a gambler and looks for the hidden gems with the mid to back end of our roster with guys like Adongo, McNary, Rogers, etc ... I hate when he "gambles" and "stays in with a bad hand" with core starters essential to our success like he has done with the OL.

 

And then we're back to the starting strategy. Again, there's a risk with Donald Thomas and the backups, but I think getting rid Satele and McGlynn is the key. As has been discussed, I think Holmes should get a shot, and I think his "redshirt" year can be a positive. I like Thornton, though he has a lot of improvement to make. I think we're fine at tackle. So a starting five of AC-DT-KH-HT-GC should be better than what we've had the past two years. The strategy Grigson has gone with is to let the two youngsters he drafted last year get into the action. I don't think that's a gamble. I think that's normal, and it's the way a team should be built, for the most part. You draft players, then you give them a chance to produce/contribute. 

 

I think it would be awesome if we signed a new veteran guard and center, so that we could check those question marks off. But that would render last year's draft picks useless. And the preferred way to build a team is through the draft. 

[YOUR GM]

And then we're back to the starting strategy. Again, there's a risk with Donald Thomas and the backups, but I think getting rid Satele and McGlynn is the key. As has been discussed, I think Holmes should get a shot, and I think his "redshirt" year can be a positive. I like Thornton, though he has a lot of improvement to make. I think we're fine at tackle. So a starting five of AC-DT-KH-HT-GC should be better than what we've had the past two years. The strategy Grigson has gone with is to let the two youngsters he drafted last year get into the action. I don't think that's a gamble. I think that's normal, and it's the way a team should be built, for the most part. You draft players, then you give them a chance to produce/contribute.

I think it would be awesome if we signed a new veteran guard and center, so that we could check those question marks off. But that would render last year's draft picks useless. And the preferred way to build a team is through the draft.

I see your logic, I just disagree with the idea that bringing in a talented veteran guard or center would render Holmes or Thornton useless. The extra veteran would be insurance for Thomas more so than anything else. We both seem to be in agreement that in order for Holmes to have success next year, the guard play has to be consistent.

Even if we entertained the idea of bringing in another center to start, recent comments from Grigson and Holmes suggest they are open to playing him at guard, if need be. What I'm getting at is, I'm fairly confident they would work Holmes and Thornton into the rotation even if we brought an established vet in as insurance.

As it stands right now, I feel like guys are being handed the job, more so than winning it (if we don't get anyone in the draft who is able to push for a starting job.) Guys like Louis and Costa were not brought in to compete, regardless what has been said. We'll see, but I agree with esmort. He's gambling on a unit that really should be close to a sure thing by now, going into year 3

[esmort]

And then we're back to the starting strategy. Again, there's a risk with Donald Thomas and the backups, but I think getting rid Satele and McGlynn is the key. As has been discussed, I think Holmes should get a shot, and I think his "redshirt" year can be a positive. I like Thornton, though he has a lot of improvement to make. I think we're fine at tackle. So a starting five of AC-DT-KH-HT-GC should be better than what we've had the past two years. The strategy Grigson has gone with is to let the two youngsters he drafted last year get into the action. I don't think that's a gamble. I think that's normal, and it's the way a team should be built, for the most part. You draft players, then you give them a chance to produce/contribute. 

 

I think it would be awesome if we signed a new veteran guard and center, so that we could check those question marks off. But that would render last year's draft picks useless. And the preferred way to build a team is through the draft. 

 

I don’t disagree with the basic premise of building through the draft.  But with the shape the OL was in and the importance of having a good OL we should have fixed it right to begin with.  There was enough money and enough FA talent last offseason that we could have built a solid OL with real depth and competition … which is not what we have now.

 

Grigson is doing more than just “giving them a chance to produce/contribute” … like HBA said Holmes and Thornton aren’t really competing for the starting job; Grigson is basically handing it to them.  I don’t think it is wasting the picks to make them compete with good players … We likely could have cut those 2013 FAs after this season for very little penalty if the draft picks were looking good; and if they weren’t than they were likely just depth or wasted draft picks anyway.

 

You keep referring to how we will be better because we let Satele and McGlynn go … which I agree will be an improvement, but it’s definitely not evidence the effectiveness of Grigson’s strategy.  We knew they were terrible last offseason, they should have been replaced then.  We could have had a good OL with real competition with whoever did not win the starting job providing great depth this offseason if Grigson had not went with “his strategy” which was to cross his fingers and hope Satele and McGlynn would magically become great players.

   

Now his strategy sends us first to the draft and then into OTAs with the interior line all ???’s.  Once again “hoping” and “gambling” it all works out.   IMO the OL is too important to apply this type of strategy ... he needs to keep his "experiments" confined to the bottom of the roster and practice squad.