Grigson: "2013 draft picks are work in progress"

[gacker65]

I feel strongly about limiting first round picks to certain positions. It will benefit a team in the long run. This year, the colts need a 34 DE/DT, an ILB, a S, and possibly a C/G. In theory, ALL of those positions are less expensive FA signings compared to pass rushing OLB, CB, and a LT. You want your 1st round picks to replace the expensive guys you would have to re-sign or find in free-agency, not the inexpensive ones.

Grigson's "project" statement does not mean he was talking about Werner. The forum just went in that direction. Personally, I think "project" is a bit harsh. Werner has some positional things to learn and needs to get stronger, but most rookies do any way. I would call Hughes a project, and his draft position reflects it.

The Vikings may have had a top 5 pick in the 2nd, but maybe NE, SF, or Seattle takes Werner and the colts lose out. Its a tough call and I don't think a clear right answer is apparent at this point.

That is exactly who he was talking about.  Werner was a 4-3 DE and would have to learn the 3-4 OLB skill set, in other words a project.

 

The rest of last year's draft was expected to be projects.

[Gavin]

I agree on Werner. I didn't like him for us at #24, for a few reasons. But I'm not worried about how my projected Rush backer looks dropping into coverage and trying to stick with receivers or TEs, or coming across the field as an offensive player crosses in front of him, because I don't anticipate putting him in that position more than a couple times a game. It's great if he has that ability, but that's a bonus, not a core requirement.

Defensive linemen with little lateral agility have to chase backs in the running game. Again, agility in that regard is a bonus, not a basic requirement for a Rush backer.

But  all you have then is giant holes all over again for the next 10-15 years if your asking your rush backer only to rush upfield, To me he has to have a strong inside move at least

[SteelCityColt]

satele should have been at least cut for Shipley. I love repeating myself.

For mcglynn, we could have used pretty much anyone

It's not much progress but it's a start... Shipley has hardly been setting the world alight in Baltimore though. As for McGlynn do you mean literally anyone or are you going to narrow it down for us?

[gacker65]

You're taking "project" way too literally in terms of Werner.  He was originally drafted to backup Mathis and to be a situational pass rusher as he is groomed to be Mathis' eventual replacement.  For that role, he was not a project in the slightest.  He became more of a project when they had to convert him to SamLB to be the primary backup to Walden after Sidbury got hurt.  

 

Hell, honestly I think Dontari Poe and Ziggy Ansah were more "project players" than Werner was.  Both Poe and Ansah had off the charts athleticism for guys their size but limited technique, playing experience and production at the college level.  Werner hasn't been playing football his entire life but he spent several good years at FSU being a very productive edge rusher...which is what the Colts drafted him to be.

 

The bottom line is that the biggest need at the time going into the 2013 draft was another edge rusher and Werner was easily the best edge rusher still available when the Colts went on the clock.  The argument could be made he was one of the top edge rushers in that draft period.  Many mocks had him going in the top 5-10 leading up to the draft.  Also consider the fact that, to my knowledge, the only experienced 3-4 OLB with a first round grade in that draft was Jarvis Jones and he went several picks earlier to the Steelers.  

Then why not trade down.  Had trade partner in Vikings if I remember right and still got Werner at the top of 2nd.  He would not be scrutinized like he is now.

[In Luck We Trust]

former colts first rounder? 2 words DONALD and BROWN

 

took him 4 years to have a good season lol.

[Superman]

But  all you have then is giant holes all over again for the next 10-15 years if your asking your rush backer only to rush upfield, To me he has to have a strong inside move at least

Who said you're only asking him to rush upfield? He has to anchor and set in running situations. He's not just coming from the wide 9 with reckless abandon every down. And Werner does have an inside move, even though that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

And you're running a completely different interior front, so either way, you're not going to have holes all over the defense. The front has to work together to shut down running lanes.

[Superman]

It's not much progress but it's a start... Shipley has hardly been setting the world alight in Baltimore though. As for McGlynn do you mean literally anyone or are you going to narrow it down for us?

The infatuation with Shipley is hilarious to me. He's a nondescript lineman who was nothing special here and hasn't done anything worth talking about in Baltimore either.

This is not a defense of Satele, but Shipley wasn't/isn't the answer either.

[Gavin]

Who said you're only asking him to rush upfield? He has to anchor and set in running situations. He's not just coming from the wide 9 with reckless abandon every down. And Werner does have an inside move, even though that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

And you're running a completely different interior front, so either way, you're not going to have holes all over the defense. The front has to work together to shut down running lanes.

Im picturing how Mathis was early on the season rushing upfield with reckless abandon which made it easy for running backs or mobile QB's to torch us early on, Both Mathis and Werner do have an inside move which you need if you have a mobile QB or a rb coming right through the hole but they dont use them much

[Superman]

Im picturing how Mathis was early on the season rushing upfield with reckless abandon which made it easy for running backs or mobile QB's to torch us early on, Both Mathis and Werner do have an inside move which you need if you have a mobile QB or a rb coming right through the hole but they dont use them much

Mathis doesn't always play with discipline at his Rush spot. That's what happens when you take a wide 9 edge rusher and convert him to OLB at 31 years old. That's not the ideal at Rush backer, but you put up with it because he's one of the best pure pass rushers in the league. Ideally, you want the Rush backer to read the play and contain against the run. This is partly why Terrell Suggs, for instance, plays so much slower than Robert Mathis.

That's only part of the reason we got beat by mobile QBs, though. The lack of athleticism at ILB was just as big of a culprit, and then there was the poor angle play by the safeties, mostly Bethea early on.

[DougDew]

That is exactly who he was talking about.  Werner was a 4-3 DE and would have to learn the 3-4 OLB skill set, in other words a project.

 

The rest of last year's draft was expected to be projects.

I think the first appearance of the word project was the third response to this thread, not in the article. And it is unclear if Grigson was speaking about any one particular player being works in progress or more about how he would describe the draft class as a whole. The draft class as a whole could be, with Werner less of one and Hughes more of one. The writer throws out names. Grigson does not.

As another mentioned upstream, Werner was drafted to be a pass rusher primarily and not really to learn the OLB skill set. But if I remember correctly, they worked him out to do just that and they concluded he could be an OLB to the extent they were going to have him do it, unlike Freeney who couldn't at all.

On another note....After reading the article, its encouraging to see Grigson was quoted as saying that the DL play needed to get better. Yippie! I just said before that I wish the colts had their first rounder this year to pick a DE/DT instead of having Richardson.

[Jason_]

Then why not trade down.  Had trade partner in Vikings if I remember right and still got Werner at the top of 2nd.  He would not be scrutinized like he is now.

 

1. He's only being scrutinized by a small portion of the fan base and perhaps a few media heads.

2. We were lucky he fell to us at our spot.  That's clearly the guy they wanted so why take the chance by trading down? There's absolutely no guarantee he would have still been available had the Colts traded down to the top of the 2nd.

[TKnight24]

You're taking "project" way too literally in terms of Werner. He was originally drafted to backup Mathis and to be a situational pass rusher as he is groomed to be Mathis' eventual replacement. For that role, he was not a project in the slightest. He became more of a project when they had to convert him to SamLB to be the primary backup to Walden after Sidbury got hurt.

Hell, honestly I think Dontari Poe and Ziggy Ansah were more "project players" than Werner was. Both Poe and Ansah had off the charts athleticism for guys their size but limited technique, playing experience and production at the college level. Werner hasn't been playing football his entire life but he spent several good years at FSU being a very productive edge rusher...which is what the Colts drafted him to be.

The bottom line is that the biggest need at the time going into the 2013 draft was another edge rusher and Werner was easily the best edge rusher still available when the Colts went on the clock. The argument could be made he was one of the top edge rushers in that draft period. Many mocks had him going in the top 5-10 leading up to the draft. Also consider the fact that, to my knowledge, the only experienced 3-4 OLB with a first round grade in that draft was Jarvis Jones and he went several picks earlier to the Steelers.

To add to my point, didn't Jarvis get benched? I recall seeing that

[Modern]

Modern, I don't want to put words in your mouth because that's rude, but are you rejecting the idea that it's reasonable to give draft picks a year or two to develop?

2 years is too long for a first round pick. If he comes on as a talent this season then I would say it was an ok pick, if he still hasn't developed into first round talent this season then I would say Grigson screwed up.

You dont draft in the first round looking for contribution years down the road, you want the guy on the field. Ideally you want to always draft a superstar, you aren't going to, but ideally that's what you want, not a project that takes so long to develop that you only get a season or 2 of prudution out of him before you have to let him walk or pay him big.

If we were running a 4-3 then I think Werner would have been a better selection, I don't like using a first on a project that you hope to turn into a situational player.

[Superman]

2 years is too long for a first round pick. If he comes on as a talent this season then I would say it was an ok pick, if he still hasn't developed into first round talent this season then I would say Grigson screwed up.

You dont draft in the first round looking for contribution years down the road, you want the guy on the field. Ideally you want to always draft a superstar, you aren't going to, but ideally that's what you want, not a project that takes so long to develop that you only get a season or 2 of prudution out of him before you have to let him walk or pay him big.

If we were running a 4-3 then I think Werner would have been a better selection, I don't like using a first on a project that you hope to turn into a situational player.

 

Grigson said the picks are a work in progress. First round or not, that's typical of a first year player. 

 

As for Werner's development, he was on the field plenty and was coming on well before he got hurt. 

[Naptown Lifer]

The division sucks right now and we should easily win it again which means we will be picking late again next year. I picture it being like when Peyton was here and we consistently make the playoffs, which means we will always be picking late. Grigson isnt gonna get early picks anytime soon. He has to find players who can contribute right away. You can't have a roster full of projects and mediocre free agents. If you want a certain position filled and the player isnt there then you trade down or just accept that the highest guy on your board would be too big of a reach and take someone at a different position. Werner was a reach, maybe he will pan out, but he was still a reach. This year we won't be picking until almost the 3rd round, so I dont know what Grigson will do. I doubt there will be many starters left by then. The Richardson trade hurts us, I know some of you think he will be good, which is highly debatable, but either way it hurts the draft. So if the 2013 players dont come on strong this season then I would consider Grigson a fool. Because that will be back to back drafts where he has dropped the ball. Grigson has 2 hopes right now, that Richardson somehow becomes something more then the complete failure he was last season and that the 2013 draft players contribute. If neither happens then personally I would like to see them pack up his executive of the year award for him and send him down the road. Nobody wants a repeat of the Chris Polian years. Grogsons job is to find and sign talent, if he is having a hard time doing it then send him packing. If a player has a great season then 2 lousy ones most fans would call for his head, the same is usually said for coaches, GM's should really be no different.

Werner was bpa he was a projected top ten pick at one point

[Kyle]

Names or STHU

this truly made me LOL.

 

so many times you see people say something like "Cut that guy and sign a pro bowler..... but don't pay him very much".    

[throwing BBZ]

A first round "Work in progress" isn't very confidence inducing

 

About 1/3rd of each years 1st rd picks turn into average or worse players.

[throwing BBZ]

Mathis doesn't always play with discipline at his Rush spot. That's what happens when you take a wide 9 edge rusher and convert him to OLB at 31 years old. That's not the ideal at Rush backer, but you put up with it because he's one of the best pure pass rushers in the league. Ideally, you want the Rush backer to read the play and contain against the run. This is partly why Terrell Suggs, for instance, plays so much slower than Robert Mathis.

That's only part of the reason we got beat by mobile QBs, though. The lack of athleticism at ILB was just as big of a culprit, and then there was the poor angle play by the safeties, mostly Bethea early on.

5 stars

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Yes...a project draft. Even a 1st rounder can be a project. Its fine

Round 1. Werner. Not much football experience but physically gifted with a good attitude and ethic. Lots of talent, not much football skill, but would not have lasted until the colts pick in the 3rd round. Were any rookie OLB's taken after Werner better?

Round 2. No Pick

Round 3. Thornton. 3rd round OL's are always projects

Round 4. Holmes. Ditto

Round 5. Hughes. Undisciplined in college, but physically talented. Project.

Round 6. Boyett. Safety with two bad knees but, apparently, more beer muscles.

I guess some will slam Grigson for saying what he said, but what draft isn't about projects unless you're picking in the top 20, IMO.

I don't consider Werner a project, he was projected as a 1st round pick & one of the top picks at his position, I think he is going to be very serviceable maybe not great but good. I like Thornton I think he will grow & be fine. Holmes? Not sure about this guy.I like the size of Hughes & how he played late I think the guy has a chance to be very good. Boyett was a nice gamble I think he can play in this league if healthy. Cunningham & Williams 7th round picks whatever!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

not really. Mcglynn has always been trash and should never been an option.

Satele was understandable to a degree but was outplayed by Shipley and should have been cut

Satele had experience & had been a serviceable center in the league Shipley not so much. Grigson hoped he bounced back from injuries & play better he didn't not much more than that really.

[throwing BBZ]

Michael Sam is not that good of a pass rusher or athlete, not enough to make up for his deficient size.

I'm not saying that your Rush backer only has to go forward, but how he flips his hips in coverage is not a major consideration at all. You want to see him be able to move a bit, have some lateral agility and raw speed, but you're not grading him on how he'll play in space in passing situations. And even if he is sort of stiff in space, if he's a pure pass rusher, someone who can line up against good blockers and get pressure on the quarterback, he'll still be a good prospect at Rush backer.

 

I don`t see Werner having near the speed & athleticism to do well pass rushing against left tackles. Why he dropped in the draft?

He better-will learn to be very solid on the other side including being able to effectively drop in zones several times a game.

 He got his hands up in the passing zones to tip some passes, NOT something we are used to seeing.

 I picture how Kruger played during the Ravens SB run as what Werner can be.

 

[Mameluc]

Well it matters when they drop him back in that short zone not vs a wr but when a wr crosses in his area, also when running backs are running right at him, Thats when it matters, Thats why so many talk about it at the Combine and ssuch

what Rush LB do you know that has "flexibility in his hips" or good in space? SuggS? have you seen him covering people? he looks as stiff or worse than werner. Aldon smith? he might look a little better but cmon.

 

when you find a good rush lb who looks good covering people you have a gem that is rarely find (probaly von miller). thats not the norm. if you are just looking for that type of player good luck in the next 5 years

 

 

Also you are talking (in your further posts) about completely different things...you were first talking about crrossing WR and having a LB that can cover the pass, cover in space....then you talked about rush LBs vs the run.

[Mouthfire]

Here's my two cents:  The real difference between the Colt's 2012 and 2013 drafts is the type of positions picked.

 

Here are the two draft classes for comparison.

 

2012

1 (1) - Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford (6-4, 234);

2 (34) - Coby Fleener, TE, Stanford (6-6, 247);

3 (64) - Dwayne Allen, TE, Clemson (6-3, 255);

3 (92) - T.Y. Hilton, WR, Florida International (5-10, 183);

5 (136) - Josh Chapman, NT, Alabama (6-1, 316);

5 (170) - Vick Ballard, RB, Mississippi State (5-10, 219);

6 (206) - LaVon Brazill, WR, Ohio (5-11, 192);

7 (208) - Justin Anderson, OT, Georgia (6-4, 335);

7 (214) - Tim Fugger, OLB, Vanderbilt (6-3, 248);

7 (253) - Chandler Harnish, QB, Northern Illinois (6-2, 219)

 

2013

1 (24) - Bjoern Werner, DE, Florida State;

3 (86) - Hugh Thornton, OG, Illinois;

4 (121) - Khaled Holmes, OC, USC;

5 (139) - DT - Montari Hughes, DT, Tennessee-Martin;

6 (192) - John Boyett, SS (Oregon);

7 (230) - Kerwynn Williams, RB, Utah State;

7 (254) - Justice Cunningham, TE, South Carolina

 

Just for sake of argument, I'm going to exclude the Andrew Luck pick because 1) it was a no brainer, and 2) the 1st pick in 2013 is a late one and essentially a 2nd round pick.  I think that makes the two draft classes a bit more comparable.  I also counted Chapman's 2nd year as his first, since the 1st one he was injured and didn't play.  Boyett, I also excluded due to off-field issues.

 

If you look at who did and didn't make a splash in their 1st year by position, it looks like this:

 

Did

WR - Hilton

WR - Brazil

HB - Ballard

TE - Allen

 

 

Didn't

OL - Fugger

OL - Thornton

OL - Holmes

DL - Chapman

DL - Hughes

Pass rusher - Woerner

QB - Harnish

HB - Williams

TE - Fleener

TE - Justice

 

I'll stop beating around the bush and just state my point:  Of the one's that definitely made a 1st year splash, they were all offensive skills players... the easiest positions to make the college-to-pro transition.  Of the ones that didn't make a splash the first year?  6/10 were offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and a pass rusher... the hardest positions to make the transition.  The rest?  Except for Fleener, they were all 7th round picks who you wouldn't expect to succeed.

 

You've heard it said time and time again.... Offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and pass rushers have the hardest college-to-pro transition to make.  I think the reason why Grigson's 2nd draft appears inferior to the 1st is really because we picked all offensive skills players that first year.  And honestly, it doesn't hurt being Hilton/Brazil/Allen/Ballard when you have Andrew Luck throwing you the ball....

 

 

[Gavin]

what Rush LB do you know that has "flexibility in his hips" or good in space? SuggS? have you seen him covering people? he looks as stiff or worse than werner. Aldon smith? he might look a little better but cmon.

 

when you find a good rush lb who looks good covering people you have a gem that is rarely find (probaly von miller). thats not the norm. if you are just looking for that type of player good luck in the next 5 years

 

 

Also you are talking (in your further posts) about completely different things...you were first talking about crrossing WR and having a LB that can cover the pass, cover in space....then you talked about rush LBs vs the run.

Right, you need an agile linebacker or an agile OLB/DE:

 

Demarcus Ware(Can play both DE/OLB)

Dion Jordan (Can play both (DE/OLB

Von Miller(Can play both)

Mario Williams(Can play both DE/OLB)

Cameron Jordan(Can play both DE/OLB)

Junior Gallete(Can play both DE/OLB)

Jerry Hughes(Can play both DE/OLB)

Micheal Bennett9can play both DE/OLB)

Ezekiel Ansah(Cant play both DE/OLB)

Jason Babin(Can play both DE/OLB

Trent Cole(Can play DE/OLB)

Connor Barwin(can play DE/OLB)

[Dustin]

Here's my two cents:  The real difference between the Colt's 2012 and 2013 drafts is the type of positions picked.

 

Here are the two draft classes for comparison.

 

2012

1 (1) - Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford (6-4, 234);

2 (34) - Coby Fleener, TE, Stanford (6-6, 247);

3 (64) - Dwayne Allen, TE, Clemson (6-3, 255);

3 (92) - T.Y. Hilton, WR, Florida International (5-10, 183);

5 (136) - Josh Chapman, NT, Alabama (6-1, 316);

5 (170) - Vick Ballard, RB, Mississippi State (5-10, 219);

6 (206) - LaVon Brazill, WR, Ohio (5-11, 192);

7 (208) - Justin Anderson, OT, Georgia (6-4, 335);

7 (214) - Tim Fugger, OLB, Vanderbilt (6-3, 248);

7 (253) - Chandler Harnish, QB, Northern Illinois (6-2, 219)

 

2013

1 (24) - Bjoern Werner, DE, Florida State;

3 (86) - Hugh Thornton, OG, Illinois;

4 (121) - Khaled Holmes, OC, USC;

5 (139) - DT - Montari Hughes, DT, Tennessee-Martin;

6 (192) - John Boyett, SS (Oregon);

7 (230) - Kerwynn Williams, RB, Utah State;

7 (254) - Justice Cunningham, TE, South Carolina

 

Just for sake of argument, I'm going to exclude the Andrew Luck pick because 1) it was a no brainer, and 2) the 1st pick in 2013 is a late one and essentially a 2nd round pick.  I think that makes the two draft classes a bit more comparable.  I also counted Chapman's 2nd year as his first, since the 1st one he was injured and didn't play.  Boyett, I also excluded due to off-field issues.

 

If you look at who did and didn't make a splash in their 1st year by position, it looks like this:

 

Did

WR - Hilton

WR - Brazil

HB - Ballard

TE - Allen

 

 

Didn't

OL - Fugger

OL - Thornton

OL - Holmes

DL - Chapman

DL - Hughes

Pass rusher - Woerner

QB - Harnish

HB - Williams

TE - Fleener

TE - Justice

 

I'll stop beating around the bush and just state my point:  Of the one's that definitely made a 1st year splash, they were all offensive skills players... the easiest positions to make the college-to-pro transition.  Of the ones that didn't make a splash the first year?  6/10 were offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and a pass rusher... the hardest positions to make the transition.  The rest?  Except for Fleener, they were all 7th round picks who you wouldn't expect to succeed.

 

You've heard it said time and time again.... Offensive linemen, defensive linemen, and pass rushers have the hardest college-to-pro transition to make.  I think the reason why Grigson's 2nd draft appears inferior to the 1st is really because we picked all offensive skills players that first year.  And honestly, it doesn't hurt being Hilton/Brazil/Allen/Ballard when you have Andrew Luck throwing you the ball....

 

How did Brazill get listed under 'did' and Fleener didn't?

[CanuckColt]

A first round "Work in progress" isn't very confidence inducing

No kidding!

[Mameluc]

Right, you need an agile linebacker or an agile OLB/DE:

 

Demarcus Ware(Can play both DE/OLB)

Dion Jordan (Can play both (DE/OLB

Von Miller(Can play both)

Mario Williams(Can play both DE/OLB)

Cameron Jordan(Can play both DE/OLB)

Junior Gallete(Can play both DE/OLB)

Jerry Hughes(Can play both DE/OLB)

Micheal Bennett9can play both DE/OLB)

Ezekiel Ansah(Cant play both DE/OLB)

Jason Babin(Can play both DE/OLB

Trent Cole(Can play DE/OLB)

Connor Barwin(can play DE/OLB)

Dion Jordan is just a name, hasnt prove anything no difference than Werner. If you think Werner looks stiff Bennet is gonna look jsut as him. Trent cole there is a reason why he struggled last season. Connor barwing is ag ood example, except he isnt really a force at Rushin the qb. Dont know about you, but i want my rush LB to be able to rush the passwer consistently.  Mario williams looks stiff as heck in coverage....Babin is 9 wide dude...

 

 

Jammie Collins is a nice example i guess.

[CanuckColt]

Is project the new word for bust?

Yep...but 'bust' is a dirty word around here. 

We need a new word for 'not good enough to play regularly'...something politically correct.

[Mouthfire]

How did Brazill get listed under 'did' and Fleener didn't?

 

Actually, I debated both of those.  Brazil and Fleener didn't exactly light the world on fire their 1st years, but showed potential.  I think both those players performed as well as you would expect their first years, but didn't really exceed.  I would probably put Brazil under "Didn't", in retrospect.

[Jason_]

Yep...but 'bust' is a dirty word around here. 

We need a new word for 'not good enough to play regularly'...something politically correct.

 

It has nothing to do with being PC.  If Werner turns out to be a bust then most will admit that he turned out to be a bust.  The problem is declaring him a bust after his rookie season where he missed several games because of an injury.  Doing that is just stupid.

[Modern]

It has nothing to do with being PC. If Werner turns out to be a bust then most will admit that he turned out to be a bust. The problem is declaring him a bust after his rookie season where he missed several games because of an injury. Doing that is just stupid.

Nobody declared Werner a bust, some of us think he was a bad first round pick.

Now Richardson .........

[Modern]

I admit though that I am beginning to look at Grigson differently. Saying that the 2013 draft was all project players and that we dont win 12 games without Richardson is making me think that he doesnt like to own it when he's wrong.

I dont expect him to flat out say they stink, but he could word it better and admit that there is some concern and work needs to be done.

I mean Richardson could have heard about the 12 games and thought he was doing just fine.

There are different ways to say things then pretend that the world is all rainbows and puppy dogs.

" we were hoping to get more production from Trent this season, hopefully next year will be a better year for him, we would like to see him earn back the starting position", would have been a better answer IMO. You ain't calling the guy a bum because you are stuck with him, but you are also letting him know that what he did last season wasn't good enough.

[Dustin]

I admit though that I am beginning to look at Grigson differently. Saying that the 2013 draft was all project players and that we dont win 12 games without Richardson is making me think that he doesnt like to own it when he's wrong.

I dont expect him to flat out say they stink, but he could word it better and admit that there is some concern and work needs to be done.

I mean Richardson could have heard about the 12 games and thought he was doing just fine.

There are different ways to say things then pretend that the world is all rainbows and puppy dogs.

" we were hoping to get more production from Trent this season, hopefully next year will be a better year for him, we would like to see him earn back the starting position", would have been a better answer IMO. You ain't calling the guy a bum because you are stuck with him, but you are also letting him know that what he did last season wasn't good enough.

 

why? That doesn't help anything. I'm sure he communicates he needs to play better without publicly calling him out in the media. That would be stupid.

[Jason_]

Nobody declared Werner a bust, some of us think he was a bad first round pick.

Now Richardson .........

 

I was only using Werner as an example, but it applies to any first year player, or players in their first year with our team like RJF, Walden, Landry etc.

 

 

I admit though that I am beginning to look at Grigson differently. Saying that the 2013 draft was all project players and that we dont win 12 games without Richardson is making me think that he doesnt like to own it when he's wrong.

I dont expect him to flat out say they stink, but he could word it better and admit that there is some concern and work needs to be done.

I mean Richardson could have heard about the 12 games and thought he was doing just fine.

There are different ways to say things then pretend that the world is all rainbows and puppy dogs.

" we were hoping to get more production from Trent this season, hopefully next year will be a better year for him, we would like to see him earn back the starting position", would have been a better answer IMO. You ain't calling the guy a bum because you are stuck with him, but you are also letting him know that what he did last season wasn't good enough.

 

Really?  Do you really think Richardson, or any other player, is going to listen to what the GM tells reporters over what the coaches tell him in practices and meetings?  Do you really think the coaches are telling him the same things in practices and meetings?  

 

This is why I rarely even listen to coaches or GM's giving press conferences.  They're never going to say what they truly believe in public.  All that matters is what happens in private between the GM, players, coaches etc.

[Modern]

Richardson was interviewed during the season amd said he thought he was doing fine and that if other players had good games then that was a good game for him. To me that sounds like a player who either doesnt have the drive to work hard and earn a starter job, or just a fool.

If Luck starts throwing picks nonstop but Brown or whoever is running that day gets 200 yards do you think Luck will say he is happy with his own performance or say that his performance doesnt matter because Donald had a good game ?

No he is gonna be mad at himself all week and be motivated to never play like that again.

He isnt gonna be at the press conference saying that he is happy he was taken out of a game so his backup could finish because he wasnt performing, he isnt gonna smile and say well Donald and the defense were great today so thats a good game for me. He is gonna be consumed with how bad his performance was and obsessed with improving.

If a player gets his feelings hurt because you publicly said you need more out of him or his performance so far isnt what you expected, then too bad for the player.

He is paid a lot of money to perform at a certain level and if he isnt doing it then thats on him. He is only hurting himself by not doing everything he can to be the very best he can. Its not only hurting his team but eventually taking future earnings from him.

For the sake of argument let's say Richardson has the same exact numbers he had this season for the next 2 seasons. Nobody will hire him, he will be a bust.

Not all men can be motivated by sweet talk and attaboys, sometimes you gotta take the reins and let them know who's in charge.

You ain't gotta call him a bum, but you also ain't gotta pretend like everything ia going as planned when obviously it isnt.

[gacker65]

I think the first appearance of the word project was the third response to this thread, not in the article. And it is unclear if Grigson was speaking about any one particular player being works in progress or more about how he would describe the draft class as a whole. The draft class as a whole could be, with Werner less of one and Hughes more of one. The writer throws out names. Grigson does not.

As another mentioned upstream, Werner was drafted to be a pass rusher primarily and not really to learn the OLB skill set. But if I remember correctly, they worked him out to do just that and they concluded he could be an OLB to the extent they were going to have him do it, unlike Freeney who couldn't at all.

On another note....After reading the article, its encouraging to see Grigson was quoted as saying that the DL play needed to get better. Yippie! I just said before that I wish the colts had their first rounder this year to pick a DE/DT instead of having Richardson.

I agree with you that DL needs some help.  Grigson can not come out and say that Werner is a project.  Any player changing from one position to another is a project, especially when a different skill set is needed.

[gacker65]

1. He's only being scrutinized by a small portion of the fan base and perhaps a few media heads.

2. We were lucky he fell to us at our spot.  That's clearly the guy they wanted so why take the chance by trading down? There's absolutely no guarantee he would have still been available had the Colts traded down to the top of the 2nd.

I will respond to each point separately.

 

1.  Yes, I scrutinize Werner, not for being a project player.  My scrutiny is for where he was drafted, not for potential.  From what I saw this last season, Werner should be decent in a couple more years.  This is the reason for my dislike of pick.

 

2.  No luck involved.  Once DE needy 4-3 teams drafted, that left only 3-4 teams that needed a OLB/DE ( basically us) and we knew Werner was going to be a project.  IMO, the only team who might have taken him, based on their needs, was Dallas.  I thought that Dallas would want to see what Ware and their other OLB could do for a year before looking for a replacement.  I find it funny that Grigson will take chances on injury prone players in FA and will not take chances on a player dropping to him in the draft.  

[Gavin]

Dion Jordan is just a name, hasnt prove anything no difference than Werner. If you think Werner looks stiff Bennet is gonna look jsut as him. Trent cole there is a reason why he struggled last season. Connor barwing is ag ood example, except he isnt really a force at Rushin the qb. Dont know about you, but i want my rush LB to be able to rush the passwer consistently.  Mario williams looks stiff as heck in coverage....Babin is 9 wide dude...

 

 

Jammie Collins is a nice example i guess.

All the players I named have the ability to stand up and make plays in space, Every draft pick is just a name coming out of college until they do something in the NFL, Jordan didn't start either so he got limited snaps, 56 tackles and 8 sacks, 3 passes defensed and 3 forced fumbles is not struggling on Trent Coles part, Both Marion Williams looked pretty good for the Texans when they were there standing up

[Mameluc]

All the players I named have the ability to stand up and make plays in space, Every draft pick is just a name coming out of college until they do something in the NFL, Jordan didn't start either so he got limited snaps, 56 tackles and 8 sacks, 3 passes defensed and 3 forced fumbles is not struggling on Trent Coles part, Both Marion Williams looked pretty good for the Texans when they were there standing up

i dont think u saw trent cole play. he made plays cause they moved him back to his hand on the ground most of the time

 

Look we can on and on the thing is you think  playing in space for crossing routes etc is a msut for rush lb...i dont. agree to disagree

[Jason_]

I will respond to each point separately.

 

1.  Yes, I scrutinize Werner, not for being a project player.  My scrutiny is for where he was drafted, not for potential.  From what I saw this last season, Werner should be decent in a couple more years.  This is the reason for my dislike of pick.

 

2.  No luck involved.  Once DE needy 4-3 teams drafted, that left only 3-4 teams that needed a OLB/DE ( basically us) and we knew Werner was going to be a project.  IMO, the only team who might have taken him, based on their needs, was Dallas.  I thought that Dallas would want to see what Ware and their other OLB could do for a year before looking for a replacement.  I find it funny that Grigson will take chances on injury prone players in FA and will not take chances on a player dropping to him in the draft.  

 

When I said we were lucky he fell, I meant that we were lucky guys with far less college production (Mingo, Ansah etc) were drafted early because of their combine and workouts.  They could easily turn out to be workout warriors that never become great football players.  So teams took a chance on them turning out great instead of taking a guy who did far more to prove himself in college in Werner.  

 

Guys like Mingo and Ansah may have higher ceilings than Werner but I would say they also have much lower floors.  Considering that, prior to the combine, Werner was projected as high as the 3rd overall pick, I do still think we were lucky he fell to us.