are the patriots in trouble

[schwamm]

Everyone has their opinion concerning the Patriots this upcoming season but who would be willing to place a substantial bet that they won't be in the very thick of it come the playoffs. Anyone?

I'm in.  How about an AVI bet... I'll bet the Pats only win one playoff game in 2013.  If they win more, I'll "wear" whatever AVI you design for me until the start of the 2014 regular season.  If not, I'll design a new AVI for you to use until the 2014 regular season kickoff.  Are you in?

[AntonMcG]

Show me people who have shown sympathy towards Hernandez . Ridicule, anger, and confusion, yes, but sympathy? Not at all.

 

I worded that poorly.

 

What I mean is people have sympathy for the situation. I have heard countless times people say it is 'sad' that someone in his position could throw it all away, and it's 'a shame' that a great talent will go to waste.

 

What is sad is that someone was killed in cold blood, regardless of the situation of the killer.

[GoPats]

It is baseless when people choose not to paraphrase my friend, otherwise that is how Chinese whispers begin.

 

I am Irish, so I am of course familiar with Shaw (though unfamiliar with that particular quote), however unfortunately he is the victim of lack of understanding of his time. This is one of many examples of an era when poetically-worded literature took precedance over proven science. We no longer live in that age.

 

He ignores the quite glaring fact that intelligence and confidence are not mutually exclusive, whilst those blighted with stupidy may mask themselves with a stubborn front, they are perfectly conversant with their doubts.

 

Then again, the internet is a plethora of quotes capable of supporting any argument, so you must forgive my scrutiny of such a baseless concept.

 

Perhaps the most ironic point here is that you quote Shaw, a socialist, and a believer in the devolution of large corporate media entities... which supports my original argument with your fellow Patriots fan. An argument you felt compelled to get involved in because of course Pats fans must stick together.

 

As the adage goes... everybody hates Pats fans.

 

Actually, any involvement I have had with this thread has nothing to do with defending a fellow Pats fan. If that's really your view, then I am surprised to hear it.

 

 

I am certain I removed myself from this debate several days ago, and offered my final views on the matter, 'amfootball' is as guilty of continuing engagement as I am. Explain to me how this may seem otherwise...

 

My issue hear began with the dismay of constantly being exposed to stories on Aaron Hernandez and the Patriots, whilst the real victims get overlooked. People saying they feel sorry for Hernandez, or they feel sorry for the Patriots, angers me, because Aaron Hernandez will get what he deserves, and ther Patriots will go on as before whilst a man is dead and his family suffers. That was my point and my issue with large media entities supports that. Now, 'amfootball' has different views, views I consider to be incorrect, so the debate continued...

 

Now, the escalation of the debate, and involvement of the delightful character 'GoPats' came from an obviously satirical comment of my intellect, if people cannot get a joke, I don't usually stick around to explain it. You have forced me hand to explain myself however, with your patronizing advice.

 

I have had quite enough generic, irrelevant adages for one day thank you, especially those accusing me of being a 'fool'.

 

This is all very lighthearted Anton, I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. Despite your obvious lack of faith in our ability to see your point-of-view, no one is failing to properly understand what you've conveyed throughout this thread. No one has even really even disagreed with you.

 

My fellow Patriots fans on this board and I cannot control the media. No one I personally know "feels sorry" for Hernandez. If anything, it's the opposite situation, and he has been condemned in the public eyes of New Englanders before he's even been convicted. No one "feels sorry" for the Patriots - they took a risk on a player and got burned.

 

If I'm being honest... I think you are a passionate individual, and obviously an intelligent one. But you also seem to believe, for whatever reason (and despite being a smart guy), that all Patriots fans are evil, immoral trolls who have disregarded the Lloyd family's loss and put the importance of a man's life below the importance of a bunch of grown men dressed in ridiculously tight pants playing with a ball on some random autumn Sunday.

 

That is not, at all, the case, and it paints us in an unfairly negative light.

 

Saying that the situation is "sad" does not reflect a misplacement of one's sympathy. "Sad" can have varied meanings. Hernandez's story is, indeed sad... a man who had talent, money, and a bright future ahead of him has tossed that all in the garbage. He leaves a fiancee and an infant who will now fend for themselves.

 

No one is expressing sympathy toward that situation, however. Some have merely pointed out the tremendous waste of talent and opportunity we've seen. There is no confusion over who the victims are. A man died... someone's son, someone's brother. Even all of us evil, inhuman Patriots fans recognize that!

[AntonMcG]

Actually, any involvement I have had with this thread has nothing to do with defending a fellow Pats fan. If that's really your view, then I am surprised to hear it.

 

 

This was simply an excuse to get a cheap shot at the Pats, an opportunity I jump at when the situation arises.

 

 

This is all very lighthearted Anton, I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. Despite your obvious lack of faith in our ability to see your point-of-view, no one is failing to properly understand what you've conveyed throughout this thread. No one has even really even disagreed with you.

 

My fellow Patriots fans on this board and I cannot control the media. No one I personally know "feels sorry" for Hernandez. If anything, it's the opposite situation, and he has been condemned in the public eyes of New Englanders before he's even been convicted. No one "feels sorry" for the Patriots - they took a risk on a player and got burned.

 

If I'm being honest... I think you are a passionate individual, and obviously an intelligent one. But you also seem to believe, for whatever reason (and despite being a smart guy), that all Patriots fans are evil, immoral trolls who have disregarded the Lloyd family's loss and put the importance of a man's life below the importance of a bunch of grown men dressed in ridiculously tight pants playing with a ball on some random autumn Sunday.

 

That is not, at all, the case, and it paints us in an unfairly negative light.

 

Saying that the situation is "sad" does not reflect a misplacement of one's sympathy. "Sad" can have varied meanings. Hernandez's story is, indeed sad... a man who had talent, money, and a bright future ahead of him has tossed that all in the garbage. He leaves a fiancee and an infant who will now fend for themselves.

 

No one is expressing sympathy toward that situation, however. Some have merely pointed out the tremendous waste of talent and opportunity we've seen. There is no confusion over who the victims are. A man died... someone's son, someone's brother. Even all of us evil, inhuman Patriots fans recognize that!

 

You have got me wrong. I am not saying this is some desperate attempt by Patriots fans to defend Hernandez. I am saying it is all football fans and beyond... due to this obsession with celebrity, who talk about him like he is stupid for getting himself into this situation. When, in my mind, the view should be that he is scum, who planned and carried out a murder. So I don't see the Hernandez situation as 'sad', I see it as a clearly evil person being put were they belong and making the world a better place. I understand most don't have sympathy for him, but it is the way the situation is being viewed that irks me... the perspective is wrong.

[amfootball]

No I read that in your first 10 posts.

 

My point remains, where does the 'Blogosphere' get the information from, because it is rarely first hand? And the impact of said 'Blogosphere' is much lesser than you claim, in fact, the major Social Media outlets have much larger impact. Though they too receive their information second-hand, and thus popular opinion has already been swayed. Healthy debate often arises, but that is for the select few who care enough to think for themselves... just because you are one of those people, does not mean everyone is. The sad truth is that the most imperative issues in this world bore most people, because they do not see the direct effects until later down the line. 

Most bloggers get their info from feet on the street. They are very well connected to their small, niche markets therefore the mainstream press often utilizes them for information. It goes both ways. I am not sure why you think everything is so sinister in the media world. Given how fast paced infomation flow is most are just trying to keep up and not lag behind.

 

In regards to your other point, "The sad truth is that the most imperative issues in this world bore most people, because they do not see the direct effects until later down the line." I am not sure what to tell you. People do think for themselves. I am not sure why you are trying to be the moral police in terms of how others respond to news. There are fools in every society regardless of media. And then there are those looking to cut corners and others who play by the rules. Society is a hodge podge, a mixed bag at best. I try not to get too caught up in all because you can't control it. All you can do is manage your own life and hope that the life you lead is one that others find worth emulating. This approach may convert many of the masses you are referencing.

[amfootball]

My point exactly, thank you.

What point? You said it was CNN and Fox influencing the masses. I am trying to give you the full picture. PR pros are constantly in the ear of the papers and news outlets pitching their companies and execs. That is how it works. Stories are not created in a vacuum or written in some sinister fashion as you seem to believe. They are researched and fact-checked and market specific depending on the audience of the outlet.

[lollygagger8]

Welker, Murderdez, and Gronk are all out. I think I saw on ESPN, that those 3 made up 68% of their touchdown percentage. 

 

 

 

I don't care how good Brady is, that's going to hurt. 

[amfootball]

Welker, Murderdez, and Gronk are all out. I think I saw on ESPN, that those 3 made up 68% of their touchdown percentage. 

 

 

 

I don't care how good Brady is, that's going to hurt. 

Yes those guys plus LLoyd too. It is more than 85 percent of catches last year. It will hurt but Gronk will be back this season and then there is Amdendola, Ballard, Dobson, etc. Brady will still have plenty of targets and a stout run game behind Ridley and company ... I am wondering if they may bring Lloyd back too.

[GoPats]

This was simply an excuse to get a cheap shot at the Pats, an opportunity I jump at when the situation arises.

 

 

You have got me wrong. I am not saying this is some desperate attempt by Patriots fans to defend Hernandez. I am saying it is all football fans and beyond... due to this obsession with celebrity, who talk about him like he is stupid for getting himself into this situation. When, in my mind, the view should be that he is scum, who planned and carried out a murder. So I don't see the Hernandez situation as 'sad', I see it as a clearly evil person being put were they belong and making the world a better place. I understand most don't have sympathy for him, but it is the way the situation is being viewed that irks me... the perspective is wrong.

 

Just so you know... that IS what the vast majority of articles and talking heads are saying. Right now there's still a lot of information processing going on, and there's still a very surreal aspect to it. But assuming he is convicted, Hernandez will not be viewed as a tragic figure in the historic sense. He'll be viewed as a cold blooded killer.

[AntonMcG]

What point? You said it was CNN and Fox influencing the masses. I am trying to give you the full picture. PR pros are constantly in the ear of the papers and news outlets pitching their companies and execs. That is how it works. Stories are not created in a vacuum or written in some sinister fashion as you seem to believe. They are researched and fact-checked and market specific depending on the audience of the outlet.

 

You continue to use buzzwords like 'sinister', I do not believe that to be the case, I don't think there is anything sinister about it, I just think there is a fundamental issue in modern society in regards to mass media communication, not particular people's fault (though Rupert Murdoch could be held significantly accountable). And I used CNN/Fox as examples... my point being that they are extremely influential. It happens in all forms of media.

 

You said it yourself... what we hear rarely comes out in a truly raw and objective fashion, that is my point... and often the wrong news is being communicated. Facts may be facts, but how facts are projected usually dictate how they are interpreted.

 

It is not something I lose a lot of sleep over, just something I like to bring up now and again to feel like I am single-handedly changing the world.

[AntonMcG]

Just so you know... that IS what the vast majority of articles and talking heads are saying. Right now there's still a lot of information processing going on, and there's still a very surreal aspect to it. But assuming he is convicted, Hernandez will not be viewed as a tragic figure in the historic sense. He'll be viewed as a cold blooded killer.

 

To be honest, I have steered clear of it this past week, because it seems to have taken over and there are more important issues to focus on. Maybe that is the picture being painted now that the dust has settled and the shock factor has died. However, when this all blew up, that was definitely not the case.

[amfootball]

You continue to use buzzwords like 'sinister', I do not believe that to be the case, I don't think there is anything sinister about it, I just think there is a fundamental issue in modern society in regards to mass media communication, not particular people's fault (though Rupert Murdoch could be held significantly accountable). And I used CNN/Fox as examples... my point being that they are extremely influential. It happens in all forms of media.

 

You said it yourself... what we hear rarely comes out in a truly raw and objective fashion, that is my point... and often the wrong news is being communicated. Facts may be facts, but how facts are projected usually dictate how they are interpreted.

 

It is not something I lose a lot of sleep over, just something I like to bring up now and again to feel like I am single-handedly changing the world.

In regards to the bolded, as long as human beings are reporting news this will always be the case I am afraid. ;)

[AntonMcG]

In regards to the bolded, as long as human beings are reporting news this will always be the case I am afraid. ;)

 

I have no doubts about that.

[-JJ-]

This was simply an excuse to get a cheap shot at the Pats, an opportunity I jump at when the situation arises.

 

 

You have got me wrong. I am not saying this is some desperate attempt by Patriots fans to defend Hernandez. I am saying it is all football fans and beyond... due to this obsession with celebrity, who talk about him like he is stupid for getting himself into this situation. When, in my mind, the view should be that he is scum, who planned and carried out a murder. So I don't see the Hernandez situation as 'sad', I see it as a clearly evil person being put were they belong and making the world a better place. I understand most don't have sympathy for him, but it is the way the situation is being viewed that irks me... the perspective is wrong.

I would have to agree (oh I'm a pats fan in case you didn't know:)

I separate crime and football. So Hernandez is just a criminal and I don't relate that to football sadness,or the hero worship and wasting his career blah blah..not to mention I don't feel sorry for rich players.

So yeah the media focuses on that but they always do..tis' the way.

I would add I also don't know Llyod's history and possible associations.

[AntonMcG]

I would have to agree (oh I'm a pats fan in case you didn't know:)

I separate crime and football. So Hernandez is just a criminal and I don't relate that to football sadness,or the hero worship and wasting his career blah blah..not to mention I don't feel sorry for rich players.

So yeah the media focuses on that but they always do..tis' the way.

I would add I also don't know Llyod's history and possible associations.

 

True, and nor do I. I try not to make negative assumptions though. You could say I have done that with Hernandez, but that is because the evidence seems too strong to dispute.

 

I am positive when the trial starts the Defense will pull out every negative piece of information and propaganda they can get their hands on in relation to Lloyd. Unfortunately, the emotional rollercoaster is only getting started for his family.

[schwamm]

Add Alphonzo Dennard to the list of Patriots offseason issues. Possible DUI?

[schwamm]

So here's a question... for a long time, it has been widely assumed that the Pats had the kind of organization that could handle character issues. In the last several years, they have taken on a number of player that other teams couldn't afford to employ... so is this just another little hiccup, or hubris coming back to bite the team in the backside?

Maybe there is no such thing as an organization capable of truly managing character issues. I've thought that NE was one of very few that could, but perhaps I was wrong.

[GoPats]

Add Alphonzo Dennard to the list of Patriots offseason issues. Possible DUI?

 

That's the word this morning. And when you're already on probation for punching a cop, a DUI generally does not work out well for you.

 

Bad, bad move... just foolish.

 

This is what you reap, though, when you take chances on guys I guess. I'm sure the Patriots will be steering clear of any players with major baggage or background issues for a while.

[GoPats]

So here's a question... for a long time, it has been widely assumed that the Pats had the kind of organization that could handle character issues. In the last several years, they have taken on a number of player that other teams couldn't afford to employ... so is this just another little hiccup, or hubris coming back to bite the team in the backside?

Maybe there is no such thing as an organization capable of truly managing character issues. I've thought that NE was one of very few that could, but perhaps I was wrong.

 

Been thinking about this a lot lately.

 

I see it as an escalating process. They took guys early on (Corey Dillon, Randy Moss) who, for the most part, kept their noses clean and made big contributions. Especially Dillon, who was huge in their '04 season (and playoffs).

 

Over time, they started taking bigger and bigger risks. The core of the team, meanwhile, was eroding. Ty Law, Willie McGinest, guys like that... guys who controlled the locker room... they either retired or moved on.

 

Eventually it gets to a point where they give guys like Haynesworth and Ochocinco another shot. They turn out to be failed experiments - obviously not to a point where things were harmful, but like all situations with gambling, if you stay at the table long enough, you'll lose.

 

This all culminates with the drafting of guys who had well-documented issues. Whether that's Hernandez's failed drug tests or Dennard's history with the law, they went for "value" by selecting guys who dropped down the draft board because of off-the-field issues. The problem is, the core of the championship teams is for all intents and purposes gone. Wilfork and Brady are the only guys with a ring, and although they have leaders they don't have the same core group they once had.

 

So really what I think has happened is this: Over time, the Patriots have taken more chances with troubled players WHILE the team's core leadership has eroded considerably. Those two things have happened, independent of each other but still inexorably tied together, and created a little bit of a perfect storm of sorts. Obviously the Hernandez thing was historic in context, and for Dennard to pull this bone-headed move two weeks later is inexcusable.

 

We'll see how this all pans out. My guess is that the team will reassess their personnel building strategies and that high-character players will be a premium for a while.

[amfootball]

Been thinking about this a lot lately.

 

I see it as an escalating process. They took guys early on (Corey Dillon, Randy Moss) who, for the most part, kept their noses clean and made big contributions. Especially Dillon, who was huge in their '04 season (and playoffs).

 

Over time, they started taking bigger and bigger risks. The core of the team, meanwhile, was eroding. Ty Law, Willie McGinest, guys like that... guys who controlled the locker room... they either retired or moved on.

 

Eventually it gets to a point where they give guys like Haynesworth and Ochocinco another shot. They turn out to be failed experiments - obviously not to a point where things were harmful, but like all situations with gambling, if you stay at the table long enough, you'll lose.

 

This all culminates with the drafting of guys who had well-documented issues. Whether that's Hernandez's failed drug tests or Dennard's history with the law, they went for "value" by selecting guys who dropped down the draft board because of off-the-field issues. The problem is, the core of the championship teams is for all intents and purposes gone. Wilfork and Brady are the only guys with a ring, and although they have leaders they don't have the same core group they once had.

 

So really what I think has happened is this: Over time, the Patriots have taken more chances with troubled players WHILE the team's core leadership has eroded considerably. Those two things have happened, independent of each other but still inexorably tied together, and created a little bit of a perfect storm of sorts. Obviously the Hernandez thing was historic in context, and for Dennard to pull this bone-headed move two weeks later is inexcusable.

 

We'll see how this all pans out. My guess is that the team will reassess their personnel building strategies and that high-character players will be a premium for a while.

Well said. I also think the Pats get more media attention for their signings when they are not actually signing any higher caliber guys than anyone else. Like Bill always says, it is the same pool of players for all teams.

 

I also think the Ocho Cinco and Haynesworth signings are not at all indicative of the Pats but were desperate moves that year because of the lock out and the three day period to sign FAs. I don't believe they would have made either move had it been a normal off-season.

 

And remember previous to AH we were sqwaking about Gronk's dance moves. Seems very silly now but that really was the extent of off-field issues for the Pats.

[schwamm]

And remember previous to AH we were sqwaking about Gronk's dance moves. Seems very silly now but that really was the extent of off-field issues for the Pats.

Agreed. They've managed their roster remarkably well for YEARS...

I'm just wondering if what we're seeing is just an unfortunately close couple of cracks, or signs that the historically solid foundation is rapidly eroding. And is it an easy fix to get back on track, or is a major overhaul on the horizon?

[amfootball]

Agreed. They've managed their roster remarkably well for YEARS...

I'm just wondering if what we're seeing is just an unfortunately close couple of cracks, or signs that the historically solid foundation is rapidly eroding. And is it an easy fix to get back on track, or is a major overhaul on the horizon?

I don't think there is any reason for any type of an overhaul. The team was one half away from the SB last year and had very few off-field issues. This AH saga has gotten a ton of coverage as you would expect but it is one player. A terrible situation but certainly not something to push the panick button over. Like I siad, the team will continue to  sign some bad apples and hope the locker room and Bill keep everything in check and they will also scout with much more scrunity and have a better checks and balances system in place for sure. I think Bill may have too much autonomy right now.

[Superman]

I don't think there is any reason for any type of an overhaul. The team was one half away from the SB last year and had very few off-field issues. This AH saga has gotten a ton of coverage as you would expect but it is one player. A terrible situation but certainly not something to push the panick button over. Like I siad, the team will continue to  sign some bad apples and hope the locker room and Bill keep everything in check and they will also scout with much more scrunity and have a better checks and balances system in place for sure. I think Bill may have too much autonomy right now.

 

Yeah, none of this has anything to do with the way they run their team. Maybe they took some risks with player acquisition that they wouldn't take again, in hindsight. Maybe they'll stray far away from risky guys in the future. But it's not like it's their fault that some of these guys are doing stupid things.

 

I've wondered for a long time whether Belichick needs someone else in the room, someone who will challenge him more. Scott Pioli used to be that guy when it came to personnel. Crennel and Weis would do that with Xs and Os. But anymore, he's got a bunch of guys there that came up in the Patriots organization. He doesn't have guys who earned their reputations independently of Belichick. I can't think of a true outside hire they've made on the coaching staff in a while, and they have one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there's a different feel in any business when everyone sort of reveres the #1 guy.

 

Belichick is a great coach, and a daring personnel guy. Kraft is a great owner. They'll continue to be a good team as long as Brady and Belichick are there. But they've taken some serious hits this offseason. And this latest one comes at a position that they have been trying to fix for several seasons now. Dennard and Talib could have been a great tandem, and now Dennard is likely gone, and Talib is a failed drug test away from missing eight games. Tough offseason.

[dw49]

Yeah, none of this has anything to do with the way they run their team. Maybe they took some risks with player acquisition that they wouldn't take again, in hindsight. Maybe they'll stray far away from risky guys in the future. But it's not like it's their fault that some of these guys are doing stupid things.

 

I've wondered for a long time whether Belichick needs someone else in the room, someone who will challenge him more. Scott Pioli used to be that guy when it came to personnel. Crennel and Weis would do that with Xs and Os. But anymore, he's got a bunch of guys there that came up in the Patriots organization. He doesn't have guys who earned their reputations independently of Belichick. I can't think of a true outside hire they've made on the coaching staff in a while, and they have one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there's a different feel in any business when everyone sort of reveres the #1 guy.

 

Belichick is a great coach, and a daring personnel guy. Kraft is a great owner. They'll continue to be a good team as long as Brady and Belichick are there. But they've taken some serious hits this offseason. And this latest one comes at a position that they have been trying to fix for several seasons now. Dennard and Talib could have been a great tandem, and now Dennard is likely gone, and Talib is a failed drug test away from missing eight games. Tough offseason.

 

 

 

So getting back to the question in the thread.... do you think the Pats are in trouble ? My answer would be yes. By "trouble" , I mean they are hanging by a "bad step" or two from having some serious weaknesses in their roster. Denard is toast and as discussed , the receiving group is weak and terribly thin. Just too much is going on Brady's shoulders ...

[amfootball]

So getting back to the question in the thread.... do you think the Pats are in trouble ? My answer would be yes. By "trouble" , I mean they are hanging by a "bad step" or two from having some serious weaknesses in their roster. Denard is toast and as discussed , the receiving group is weak and terribly thin. Just too much is going on Brady's shoulders ...

Meh. I guess it depends how you define trouble. Dennard was not going to make or break the secondary. He showed some promise last season as a rookie but they also have Dowling if he can stay healthy and the draft pick from Rutgers to plug in. In terms of the other losses, the only one not expected was AH. The Pats chose not to resign Welker and released Lloyd so they obviously had a plan for their absences. I think most are forgetting the draft and FA moves. If they pan out as expected than the Pats will be a champ caliber team. This team is far from relying on Brady solely with a stout run game, the best TE in the league in Gronk, one of the best offensive lines and a great front seven on defense. Much of the team's post-season success will ride on how they defend the pass.

[-JJ-]

So getting back to the question in the thread.... do you think the Pats are in trouble ? My answer would be yes. By "trouble" , I mean they are hanging by a "bad step" or two from having some serious weaknesses in their roster. Denard is toast and as discussed , the receiving group is weak and terribly thin. Just too much is going on Brady's shoulders ...

No. Or no more trouble than before this incident or any other team in the league for that matter.

It's not about plugging great players with great stats and saying the best will win the SB. Doesn't happen. That's Madden football:-)

What it is about is how a team works together, and coaching, and executing. That is not known until around the 6th game of the season or even later.

Of course there would be nothing to post here if that's the case (which it really is) but just bear that in mind with the "we lost x player we're doomed" or conversely "we added x player and we are SB bound" uh uh.

[Superman]

So getting back to the question in the thread.... do you think the Pats are in trouble ? My answer would be yes. By "trouble" , I mean they are hanging by a "bad step" or two from having some serious weaknesses in their roster. Denard is toast and as discussed , the receiving group is weak and terribly thin. Just too much is going on Brady's shoulders ...

 

Yeah, maybe they're getting back to 2006 right now. But they still have a much better receiving corps than they did back then, Brady is better and more efficient. The problem for the last few seasons has been the pass defense, and I don't know whether that will be better or not. Losing Dennard certainly doesn't help, though. I don't think they are particularly strong at rushing the passer, either.

 

I don't think their roster is as good now as it was a year ago. Then again, if the receivers click with Brady, they could be better. 

[GoPats]

Personally I think losing Dennard would hurt quite a bit. It wasn't until he entrenched himself as a starter, plus the addition of Talib, that the Patriots' secondary actually started looking like an NFL-caliber group toward the end of the 2012 season. I liked Dennard's game a lot, and think they were expecting big things from him this year. Now it's likely he will be gone, or at the very least suspended by the league for a period of time.

 

The problem here is depth. Ras-I Dowling is useless to me. Doesn't matter what kind of size or talent he has, he can't stay on the field. What's he played, four games in two seasons? They have a rookie from Rutgers... great. 

 

SMH at the stupidity of these players. I work my butt off for a fraction of what they make, yet I treat my career with more care and caution. Go figure.

[southwest1]

The Patriots are not in that much trouble. I still see them winning 10 or 11 games easy. They will win their division. Miami is no threat. I don't give a darn if they did sign Wallace as their stretch the field  as WR. Chandler Jones is a beast, Vince Wilfork is a freaking stud, & Danny Amendola will fit that offense like a glove. 

 

Kraft, Belichick, & Brady are the winning triangle of that Foxboro franchise as long as those 3 leadership roles remain intact everything will be fine. No NFL franchise could have foreseen AH's criminal tendencies not to this level anyway & he did seem to produce on the field despite his off the field activities. 

 

Corey Dillon & Randy Moss were both hungry athletes who wanted to win a ring & they were tired of losing & being considered a laughing stock in this league. They were both relieved to escape their former teams & they were both highly productive & successful in NE. Risk taking is part of professional football. The questions is does your front office want saints off the field who can't produce during games or money players in the 4th quarter with legal arrests off the field? Being perfectly clean is a mirage anyway in my book. I don't think any less of NE for the AH episode at all. They will still make the Playoffs this season. Nothing changes IMHO. 

[southwest1]

Personally I think losing Dennard would hurt quite a bit. It wasn't until he entrenched himself as a starter, plus the addition of Talib, that the Patriots' secondary actually started looking like an NFL-caliber group toward the end of the 2012 season. I liked Dennard's game a lot, and think they were expecting big things from him this year. Now it's likely he will be gone, or at the very least suspended by the league for a period of time.

 

The problem here is depth. Ras-I Dowling is useless to me. Doesn't matter what kind of size or talent he has, he can't stay on the field. What's he played, four games in two seasons? They have a rookie from Rutgers... great. 

 

SMH at the stupidity of these players. I work my butt off for a fraction of what they make, yet I treat my career with more care and caution. Go figure.

Exactly GoPats! Wouldn't you think that a lightbulb would turn on inside their head saying gee I making darn good money maybe I should stay out of trouble & continue to cash my lucrative game check every 2 weeks? If I was getting a hefty salary as a franchise player with a $40 million dollar contract over 5 years, I would be on my best behavior. Great money & the good life tend to make a person happy & following the rules. Or I sure would anyway. 

[dw49]

Meh. I guess it depends how you define trouble. Dennard was not going to make or break the secondary. He showed some promise last season as a rookie but they also have Dowling if he can stay healthy and the draft pick from Rutgers to plug in. In terms of the other losses, the only one not expected was AH. The Pats chose not to resign Welker and released Lloyd so they obviously had a plan for their absences. I think most are forgetting the draft and FA moves. If they pan out as expected than the Pats will be a champ caliber team. This team is far from relying on Brady solely with a stout run game, the best TE in the league in Gronk, one of the best offensive lines and a great front seven on defense. Much of the team's post-season success will ride on how they defend the pass.

 

 

 

The problem is they just lost a great weapon at TE and the other guy you mention , "Gronk" has proven two things. One is he's terrific and two is that you can't depend on him as he has been injury prone through college and the pros. You can feel good about "glowing reports " about rookie WR's but good luck with that one. They seldom are a major factor and the Pats have a bad history spending high picks on WR's. So just for kicks throw in another injury prone guy into the mix with the Ram guy and this does not paint a pretty picture. Certainly has a chance to be a huge mess. But I'm not writing them off , I just think they are not anywhere as solid as the Broncos and the 2-3 top teams in the NFC. The fact that they play in the AFC and Manning could end up playing in nasty January weather , gives them a very legit shot. If Luck takes a step forward , I'm not sure they are better then the Colts...

[Flying Elvis]

Been thinking about this a lot lately.

 

I see it as an escalating process. They took guys early on (Corey Dillon, Randy Moss) who, for the most part, kept their noses clean and made big contributions. Especially Dillon, who was huge in their '04 season (and playoffs).

 

Over time, they started taking bigger and bigger risks. The core of the team, meanwhile, was eroding. Ty Law, Willie McGinest, guys like that... guys who controlled the locker room... they either retired or moved on.

 

Eventually it gets to a point where they give guys like Haynesworth and Ochocinco another shot. They turn out to be failed experiments - obviously not to a point where things were harmful, but like all situations with gambling, if you stay at the table long enough, you'll lose.

 

This all culminates with the drafting of guys who had well-documented issues. Whether that's Hernandez's failed drug tests or Dennard's history with the law, they went for "value" by selecting guys who dropped down the draft board because of off-the-field issues. The problem is, the core of the championship teams is for all intents and purposes gone. Wilfork and Brady are the only guys with a ring, and although they have leaders they don't have the same core group they once had.

 

So really what I think has happened is this: Over time, the Patriots have taken more chances with troubled players WHILE the team's core leadership has eroded considerably. Those two things have happened, independent of each other but still inexorably tied together, and created a little bit of a perfect storm of sorts. Obviously the Hernandez thing was historic in context, and for Dennard to pull this bone-headed move two weeks later is inexcusable.

 

We'll see how this all pans out. My guess is that the team will reassess their personnel building strategies and that high-character players will be a premium for a while.

Great post. Willie, Tedy and Rodney brought accountability to the locker room. When they left so did the Patriot way.

[southwest1]

Great post. Willie, Tedy and Rodney brought accountability to the locker room. When they left so did the Patriot way.

You know that brings up an interesting question: Who on defense cracks the whip when necessary? Vince Wilfork? Mayo? Jones? I don't know. I'm asking. Brady's keeps the offense in line, but what 1 defensive player does NE respect enough that if he got upset enough Patriot players would immediately shut up & listen? 

 

Not a criticism. SW1 wants NE to do well. What player on defense is filling that leadership void in Foxboro? Give me 1 name...Thank you...

 

Belichick had Lawrence Taylor in NY. Willie McGinest & Tedy in NE. I just hope someone takes the leadership mantle on D in training camp. Defense wins Championships by steamrolling the offense & crushing their will to win or take the hard hit for 3rd down & 5. I have always believed that personally. 

[JerodMayo51]

So here's a question... for a long time, it has been widely assumed that the Pats had the kind of organization that could handle character issues. In the last several years, they have taken on a number of player that other teams couldn't afford to employ... so is this just another little hiccup, or hubris coming back to bite the team in the backside?

Maybe there is no such thing as an organization capable of truly managing character issues. I've thought that NE was one of very few that could, but perhaps I was wrong.

 

He has been able to handle their character issues while they're in Gilette Stadium.  While at the stadium they are model players and do everything they're suppose to, but once its offseason and they scatter around the country he can't be around to hold all of their hands.

[Flying Elvis]

You know that brings up an interesting question: Who on defense cracks the whip when necessary? Vince Wilfork? Mayo? Jones? I don't know. I'm asking. Brady's keeps the offense in line, but what 1 defensive player does NE respect enough that if he got upset enough Patriot players would immediately shut up & listen? 

 

Not a criticism. SW1 wants NE to do well. What player on defense is filling that leadership void in Foxboro? Give me 1 name...Thank you...

SW1, you are a better Patriots fan than some Patriots fans I know.

1 name? I don't know. I honestly don't know.

[southwest1]

SW1, you are a better Patriots fan than some Patriots fans I know.

1 name? I don't know. I honestly don't know.

Thanks FE! I guess it just hit me when Tedy or Willie got upset everyone on defense knew it & players knew to get their bleep together & wake up ASAP. When players are out of alignment or in the wrong spot, who says "hey get your head out of your caboose & line up correctly? Do you know what guy you are supposed to block, stop, or slow down at all costs? All Championships teams have at least 1 exceptional leader on defense. Someone who will let you know when you do something great & when you miss a crucial block preventing a 1st down. 

 

I have a profound amount of respect for your world class franchise my friend & besides if I ever get banished from INDY; I have Boston as my contingency fall back position.    Just Kidding! 

[Flying Elvis]

I was hoping that leadership would come from one of these guys,

Brandon Meriweather 2007 24th pick
Terrence Wheatley 2008 62nd
Shawn Crable 2008 78th
Patrick Chung 2009 34th
Ron Brace 2009 40th
Darius Butler 2009 41st
Jermaine Cunningham 2010 53rd

[southwest1]

I was hoping that leadership would come from one of these guys,

Brandon Meriweather 2007 24th pick

Terrence Wheatley 2008 62nd

Shawn Crable 2008 78th

Patrick Chung 2009 34th

Ron Brace 2009 40th

Darius Butler 2009 41st

Jermaine Cunningham 2010 53rd

7 names. You get extra credit for that FE. Even NE fans go above & beyond basic requirements to thrive in this league. Nicely done! The Grey Hoodie is rubbing off on your fanbase...Leave nothing to chance...

[JerodMayo51]

I was hoping that leadership would come from one of these guys,

Brandon Meriweather 2007 24th pick

Terrence Wheatley 2008 62nd

Shawn Crable 2008 78th

Patrick Chung 2009 34th

Ron Brace 2009 40th

Darius Butler 2009 41st

Jermaine Cunningham 2010 53rd

 

Jermaine Cunningham has shown flashes of brilliance but never consistently has been able to do that.  Hes still a solid contributor as a pass rushing specialist, but he just hasn't made that next leap yet.  He could turn it around, but im not holding my breath.

 

The Patriots have plenty of leaders on the team though:

 

Brady

Wilfork

Adrian Wilson

Jerod Mayo

Devin McCourty

Logan Mankins

Matt Slater

Tim Tebow

Leon Washington

 

Hopefully guys like Amendola, Vereen, Ridley, Solder, Hightower, Logan Ryan and Tavon Wilson can start transitioning more into those roles.  Gronkowski is a leader whether he likes it or not, hes just young right now so hes not exactly a beacon of wisdom and enlightenment outside of football, but his teammates love him and football is very important to him.  I'm sure he will develop into another leader for them and a face of the franchise.

[amfootball]

The problem is they just lost a great weapon at TE and the other guy you mention , "Gronk" has proven two things. One is he's terrific and two is that you can't depend on him as he has been injury prone through college and the pros. You can feel good about "glowing reports " about rookie WR's but good luck with that one. They seldom are a major factor and the Pats have a bad history spending high picks on WR's. So just for kicks throw in another injury prone guy into the mix with the Ram guy and this does not paint a pretty picture. Certainly has a chance to be a huge mess. But I'm not writing them off , I just think they are not anywhere as solid as the Broncos and the 2-3 top teams in the NFC. The fact that they play in the AFC and Manning could end up playing in nasty January weather , gives them a very legit shot. If Luck takes a step forward , I'm not sure they are better then the Colts...

 

Hi Dw. You have an awful lot of hypotheticals in there. If all those things actually happen then I would agree that the Pats would be in trouble but seldom are champ teams determined solely on the number of perceived great players but on how the team performs as a collective and I think the Pats have proven over more than a decade now that they are pretty good at fielding a team that averages 12-13 wins a season and many of those teams sustained key injuries to key players along the way. It is par for the course for EVERY team.

 

In terms of the other contending AFC teams, the Broncos off-season has been tumultuous as well. They lost one of their best defensive players in Dumerville and have a bunch of injury concerns on the offensive line. In addition, two of their execs have been arrested for DUI. So, I don’t see the Broncos as better than the Pats. In fact, I would argue that the Pats improved their team more defensively and the Broncos actually took a step back but we will see how it plays out. I do agree about Jan and the bad weather but I think the bigger factor is Fox vs. Belichick. I just don’t see Fox being able to outcoach him in a big game.

 

In terms of the Colts, they are perhaps the most interesting team in the AFC. Luck is a stud but he basically has a new HC this year as Pagano did not coach last year save for two games and a new OC. That is a lot of change in year two. I don’t think the Colts are better than the Texans right now much less the Pats but I do think they have more intangibles so I do like them to get back to the playoffs even though many are predicting a step back from their 11 wins last year.