The Current State of the Offensive Line

[colts52761]

We have added oline to the practice squad. Not sure why we don't sign a veteran Free agent that can be on the roster?

[AKB]

Just now, colts52761 said:

We have added oline to the practice squad. Not sure why we don't sign a veteran Free agent that can be on the roster?

doesn't look like they have taken the veteran approach with any position this season, in terms of signing. Either we already had a guy, or a rookie is playing there. 

[colts52761]

Just feel like a veteran will help Richardson's progress.

[DiogoSales]

Re watched the game today, pass pro was solid, some bad moments,  but overall not bad. Run block was bad, but some holes were there, DJ made himself no favors at all.

 

For me the lack of skill players separation beyond Granson and Downs will hold AR grow way more than OL.

 

I just hope this was a too conservative game plan to justify the inexistence of Pierce.

 

If we're having second toughts on paying JT, I cannot imagine how we're seeing Pittman and Pierce right now (yes, he made 1 amazing play, but that's it)

[richard pallo]

9 minutes ago, AKB said:

maybe, pff grades are not the end all be all. at the end of the day, you gotta watch the ball. it could very well be that Fries was so bad, that Smith and Kelly are having to compensate, causing them to be a bit delayed. 

 

but to hint that Kelly was the best lineman, or even close to it is not true. Nelson, Raimann, Kelly, Smith, Fries (in that order)

 

Smith definitely got beat on his outside shoulder more than once, probably because he is constantly sliding left, and looking left (the only reason Kelly is above him, overall Smith is the better lineman). What is Kelly's excuse? Our most veteran lineman? He barely gets any push, and often loses in run blocking vs. DTs. Kelly is the 2nd worst on the line, and it isn't even close. 

 

You have to look at all the extra stuff Nelson is doing, pulling right, swinging out right, and running even ahead of our center in the run game. That is not normal. so even if he doesn't grade the highest, he still does a lot for an LG. Also, Jax is strongest on their edges, not up the middle. Kelly probably had the easiest assignment on the line when looking at hat-on-hat football. there is a lot to consider, but I don't see Kelly as a top 10 center, and the fact we took him and he's gone through 7-10 quarterbacks is probably a big reason he returned, plus his leadership role.

 

but looking at overall play? Kelly is not good, maybe 15-18th center.

 

here's your favorite website basically confirming what I just said. the definition of average.

 

"Indianapolis Colts center Ryan Kelly was a Pro Bowl selection from 2019-2021, but he wasn't selected last season. Pro Football Focus (PFF) ranked Kelly as the 16th best center heading into 2023 after a disappointing 2022 campaign." - PFF

You’re entertaining reading.  I’ll give you that.  Oh.  Maybe Kelly had some family issues he was dealing with.  Did that ever cross your mind?  

[colts52761]

La'el Collins?

 

[w87r]

5 minutes ago, colts52761 said:

La'el Collins?

 

Graded out at 57.9 on 981 snaps.

[colts52761]

I'm surprised. Thought he could play RG.

[AKB]

15 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

You’re entertaining reading.  I’ll give you that.  Oh.  Maybe Kelly had some family issues he was dealing with.  Did that ever cross your mind?  

maybe when he woke up he couldn't pee cause his wife was doing makeup and pooping at the same time, that probably had an effect. 

[AKB]

7 minutes ago, AKB said:

maybe when he woke up he couldn't pee cause his wife was doing makeup and pooping at the same time, that probably had an effect. 

@richard pallo i lost a stillbirth baby about 4 months before Kelly. sure, it definitely effects you every day. I had clinical today in the same hospital where my baby died. But, at the end of the day, you still have to show up and do your job, People in the NFL have sad stuff happen to them all the time.

 

that doesn't mean he gets a free pass from criticism, or grading for that year. I would say there are far more factors on the field than off the field that effected his play last year. but let me be clear, I've been wanting to move on from Kelly for the last 3 years or so. I wanted us to sell high and trade him after his pro bowl nod. 

[NewColtsFan]

11 hours ago, richard pallo said:

I have a question.  Does a penalty affect a player’s pff score?  I would think it would.  I ask because both of Fries scores for pass blocking and run blocking were higher than his overall score.  He did incur a penalty that called back a first down run.  As far as I remember he was the only one on the OL to incur a penalty.  Anyone know?

Yes….   Penalties do indeed count toward the PFF grade.   
 

Grades can be confusing.   I think I saw today that Fries had a run blocking grade in the upper 50’s and a pass blocking grade in the mid-60’s but an overall grade in the mid-50’s.    Odd.   Weird.    Not sure I can explain it?   I may try to call them to ask them about that…

[richard pallo]

20 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes….   Penalties do indeed count toward the PFF grade.   
 

Grades can be confusing.   I think I saw today that Fries had a run blocking grade in the upper 50’s and a pass blocking grade in the mid-60’s but an overall grade in the mid-50’s.    Odd.   Weird.    Not sure I can explain it?   I may try to call them to ask them about that…

That’s what I thought too.  That’s why I asked the question about penalties.  It was the only thing I could think of that could possibly make a difference.  It apparently does.  An all encompassing grading system for sure.  

[OhioColt]

Not sure our Colts can do much to fix the offensive line at this point.  The only player in trade or free agency next offseason will be to target is Dolphins' RG Robert Hunt.  The Dolphins are already project in the negative ~27m in cap space per Over the Cap.  Hunt's career highs in 2022 were both a 74.5 PFF pass-block grade and a 74.5 run-blocking grade.  For 2023 PFF ranked him as the 17th best overall guard.

 

Seen talk about drafting a legacy with Harrison Jr. and realize Pittman is under a contract year but despite lack luster QB play Pittman still received very good PFF grades in 2022.  Yes, we will have FA/draft questions that will need to be addressed.  Am hopeful we resign Pittman rather than look in FA to replace him with say Marquise Brown (Cardinals).

[EasyE]

Man our OL depth sucks not much different than other teams. But there's 31 other teams out there struggling for the same thing. It's going to be hit and misses for quite some time.

[cdgacoltsfan]

4 hours ago, EasyE said:

Man our OL depth sucks not much different than other teams. But there's 31 other teams out there struggling for the same thing. It's going to be hit and misses for quite some time.

Ding ding.....we have a winner! Someone that actually knows what's going on.

[Zoltan]

I will say one thing we don’t consider in these OL threads is that, league wide there’s a lack of good OL. There’s probably 20 teams that have at least one glaring hole in their OL. 

[throwing BBZ]

13 hours ago, AKB said:

@richard pallo i lost a stillbirth baby about 4 months before Kelly. sure, it definitely effects you every day. I had clinical today in the same hospital where my baby died. But, at the end of the day, you still have to show up and do your job, People in the NFL have sad stuff happen to them all the time.

 

that doesn't mean he gets a free pass from criticism, or grading for that year. I would say there are far more factors on the field than off the field that effected his play last year. but let me be clear, I've been wanting to move on from Kelly for the last 3 years or so. I wanted us to sell high and trade him after his pro bowl nod. 

 

 Sorry, but you are ignoring he had a significant left arm issue 2 seasons ago and played through it.

So how much lifting, upper body and lower can one do with one arm? He was still getting over powered last season in ways that didn't happen prior to that injury.

 It was/is my hope that he is finally back to as near 100% as his body will allow him to get. Maybe he only grades middle of the pack, thats life.

[AKB]

2 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Sorry, but you are ignoring he had a significant left arm issue 2 seasons ago and played through it.

So how much lifting, upper body and lower can one do with one arm? He was still getting over powered last season in ways that didn't happen prior to that injury.

 It was/is my hope that he is finally back to as near 100% as his body will allow him to get. Maybe he only grades middle of the pack, thats life.

 

well BBZ, I don't think I am ignoring it, never planned on discussing his excuses I wasn't the one making excuses for his poor play, I just stated that he hasn't been a top center, for years. 

 

Richard made note of the tragedy that happened, and that is true. Perhaps it was more of a coaching/roster blunder to keep Kelly in the lineup when we had a serviceable, quality backup center in Pinter. but that's probably a conversation for Ballard or Reich discussions. 

 

but as far as him being injured and not playing well, the first ability any player has is availability. players dont get a free pass due to injuries. if they are on the field they are expected to play at the highest level possible, and then whatever production they output is what they are judged off of. 

 

if he was too weak to play center, he shouldn't have been playing, and it is really that simple. does this sound harsh? of course, but we are talking about a business, not a soup kitchen that helps the homeless. 

 

he's made millions and over the last 3 years, his play has been totally replaceable (as pinter displayed multiple times). If we are gonna give this player an excuse, then let's go through and give every player an excuse. Maybe Darius Rush got cooked repeatedly because he had anxiety, or was sad about his pet cat. Maybe rush was distracted because he has a toxic relationship. Or maybe he spilled coffee on his favorite suit, and he was down about it. 

 

I mean its a slippery slope, when does it stop? what excuse is valid vs. what excuse is not valid for diminished quality of play? And do only players with a secure roster spot relish in that type of defense? Leonard came out last year and it was clear he couldn't run fast enough, so what happened? He stopped playing until he was ready. So if they're on the field, they are worthy of judging/grading. 

 

 

[throwing BBZ]

8 minutes ago, AKB said:

 

well BBZ, I don't think I am ignoring it, never planned on discussing his excuses I wasn't the one making excuses for his poor play, I just stated that he hasn't been a top center, for years. 

 

Richard made note of the tragedy that happened, and that is true. Perhaps it was more of a coaching/roster blunder to keep Kelly in the lineup when we had a serviceable, quality backup center in Pinter. but that's probably a conversation for Ballard or Reich discussions. 

 

but as far as him being injured and not playing well, the first ability any player has is availability. players dont get a free pass due to injuries. if they are on the field they are expected to play at the highest level possible, and then whatever production they output is what they are judged off of. 

 

if he was too weak to play center, he shouldn't have been playing, and it is really that simple. does this sound harsh? of course, but we are talking about a business, not a soup kitchen that helps the homeless. 

 

he's made millions and over the last 3 years, his play has been totally replaceable (as pinter displayed multiple times). If we are gonna give this player an excuse, then let's go through and give every player an excuse. Maybe Darius Rush got cooked repeatedly because he had anxiety, or was sad about his pet cat. Maybe rush was distracted because he has a toxic relationship. Or maybe he spilled coffee on his favorite suit, and he was down about it. 

 

I mean its a slippery slope, when does it stop? what excuse is valid vs. what excuse is not valid for diminished quality of play? And do only players with a secure roster spot relish in that type of defense? Leonard came out last year and it was clear he couldn't run fast enough, so what happened? He stopped playing until he was ready. So if they're on the field, they are worthy of judging/grading. 

 

 

 

 It is a decision for the coaching staff who is the best man up.

They chose Kelly, even if he was somewhat diminished. There is no excuse involved. And our staff graded him and we kept putting him out there over Pinter. Where is any excuse shown?

 Q wasn't 100% either last year. This is COMMON every year stuff in the NFL.

If they can play up to a standard they will. Leonard wasn't close, and was politely benched.

[AKB]

Just now, throwing BBZ said:

 

 It is a decision for the coaching staff who is the best man up.

They chose Kelly, even if he was somewhat diminished. There is no excuse involved. And our staff graded him and we kept putting him out there over Pinter. Where is any excuse shown?

 Q wasn't 100% either last year. This is COMMON every year stuff in the NFL.

If they can play up to a standard they will. Leonard wasn't close, and was politely benched.

exactly, we really aren't disagreeing. 

 

so if he is the best man up, he's getting graded just like anyone else. injured or not. 

[hoosierhawk]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:09 AM, ProblChld32 said:

Over the top? He’s a backup at best on about 75 percent of any NFLs roster. He is just simply not that good. If you watch the tape you can see that. The bad outweighed the good. He had far more bad snaps than good ones. 

Amazing how many great NFL talent scouts we have on this site.

[hoosierhawk]

On 9/11/2023 at 6:10 PM, Solid84 said:

So, I’m rewatching the game right now. 
 

Our very first drive of the game. 3rd & 8. Smith beat by Josh Allen. AR was moving, but clearly with the intent to pass. 
 

2nd Qtr. 0:34 remaining. 1st & 10. Smith beat by Walker. How this wasn’t called a sack I don’t know.
 

Both instances were speed rush. 

But,but I thought Fries was the big problem on the OL.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Learning to block for a mobile QB eill take some time. When you have a pocket passer you always know where they will be.

[richard pallo]

Just read where pff graded the Colts OL as 10th in run blocking and 15th in pass blocking after the first game.  A big jump and a good start compared to last year.

[Pelt]

4 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Learning to block for a mobile QB eill take some time. When you have a pocket passer you always know where they will be.

Well, last year they always knew he'd be on his back...

[AKB]

1 hour ago, richard pallo said:

Just read where pff graded the Colts OL as 10th in run blocking and 15th in pass blocking after the first game.  A big jump and a good start compared to last year.

which is crazy considering our backs could barely get 3 ypc

[richard pallo]

6 minutes ago, AKB said:

which is crazy considering our backs could barely get 3 ypc

Well not all backs are created equal.  Jackson is 3rd string for a reason.  That’s why I’m hoping we keep JT.

[AKB]

1 minute ago, richard pallo said:

Well not all backs are created equal.  Jackson is 3rd string for a reason.  That’s why I’m hoping we keep JT.

for sure agreed. 

 

but even average backs like AJ dillon could get 4ypc with a top 10 run block grade you'd think, right? I mean is that unreasonable? 

[w87r]

I'm just happy we are bringing guys in. More eyes on players, better chance of finding something.

 

Our practice squad OLman, to start, was just Skipper.

 

Now we have:

Hambright G/T

Ike Boettger G

Jack Anderson G/C

 

 

 

Our other 4 OLman are just fine. Still searching for the answer at RG. 

 

 

Keep bringing in guys, hopefully one of them is the answer or Freeland's development goes quickly.

[richard pallo]

9 minutes ago, AKB said:

for sure agreed. 

 

but even average backs like AJ dillon could get 4ypc with a top 10 run block grade you'd think, right? I mean is that unreasonable? 

I suppose but you still have to play the game.  Anything can happen.  Teams play differently each week.  Some weeks are better than others.

[AKB]

10 minutes ago, w87r said:

I'm just happy we are bringing guys in. More eyes on players, better chance of finding something.

 

Our practice squad OLman, to start, was just Skipper.

 

Now we have:

Hambright G/T

Ike Boettger G

Jack Anderson G/C

 

 

 

Our other 4 OLman are just fine. Still searching for the answer at RG. 

 

 

Keep bringing in guys, hopefully one of them is the answer or Freeland's development goes quickly.

yeah hopefully we figure it out for ARs sake

[1959Colts]

2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Just read where pff graded the Colts OL as 10th in run blocking and 15th in pass blocking after the first game.  A big jump and a good start compared to last year.

Our running game on Sunday was one of the worst outings I can remember. We couldn't run the ball for squat. Yet we came in as 10th best? What kind of method is pff using?

[richard pallo]

11 minutes ago, w87r said:

I'm just happy we are bringing guys in. More eyes on players, better chance of finding something.

 

Our practice squad OLman, to start, was just Skipper.

 

Now we have:

Hambright G/T

Ike Boettger G

Jack Anderson G/C

 

 

 

Our other 4 OLman are just fine. Still searching for the answer at RG. 

 

 

Keep bringing in guys, hopefully one of them is the answer or Freeland's development goes quickly.

We’re not the only team looking for OL.  Look at the Giants with Glowinski getting paid and starting.  When our line was considered great Glowinski was the RG I. Believe.  4 out of 5 is pretty darn good.  Practice squads are getting churned all the time.  Those players are practice squad for a reason.  Our best hope is for Fries to make a jump like Raimann.  I think he could do it as our line plays more as a unit.  Chemistry is a big part of it.  I think the current plan is to find out if he can. We need more games played to start finding out.

[richard pallo]

5 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Our running game on Sunday was one of the worst outings I can remember. We couldn't run the ball for squat. Yet we came in as 10th best? What kind of method is pff using?

Maybe Jackson was part of the reason.  He is not what I would consider a starting caliber player.  Talent helps produce results I think.  But that’s just my opinion.

[ProblChld32]

11 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

Amazing how many great NFL talent scouts we have on this site.

Well let’s see I’ve played ball collegiately D1AA to be exact. I have also played in the CFL as well. Currently I coach collegiately, so needless to say I think I have some knowledge about the game and an eye for talent. You’re more than welcome to have your opinion, as am I. I think mines is backed by more logic from having actual extensive experience of the game.

[1959Colts]

11 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Maybe Jackson was part of the reason.  He is not what I would consider a starting caliber player.  Talent helps produce results I think.  But that’s just my opinion.

Jackson struggled for sure, but one game should not prove he's not up to NFL standards. I think it was obvious to all, there were no visible holes to run through vs Jacksonville. On one play Deon lost ten yards, when Josh Allen blitzed and was unblocked. the announcer said Jackson had been "de-cleated"  

I believe, too many here, take pff focus computer rankings as gospel truth. From personally watching the game replay, I can say the Colts line (rushing) certainly did not look like 10th best. However, I did not watch all 16 games. That being said, I still doubt 22 other teams did a worse job run blocking than we did in week one.

[richard pallo]

7 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Jackson struggled for sure, but one game should not prove he's not up to NFL standards. I think it was obvious to all, there were no visible holes to run through vs Jacksonville. On one play Deon lost ten yards, when Josh Allen blitzed and was unblocked. the announcer said Jackson had been "de-cleated"  

I believe, too many here, take pff focus computer rankings as gospel truth. From personally watching the game replay, I can say the Colts line (rushing) certainly did not look like 10th best. However, I did not watch all 16 games. That being said, I still doubt 22 other teams did a worse job run blocking than we did in week one.

There was at least one visible hole and AR ran the wrong way and was stuffed.  Someone posted a video of the play on one of the OL threads.  Well worth watching.  AR would have easily scored after two great blocks by Kelly and Fries and Nelson had his man sealed off.  He went left instead of where the play was designed to go right.  A rookie mistake I would say.  Playing more games with your OL will help correct that.  I am very encouraged by our OL play after one game.  We will see where it goes.

[1959Colts]

12 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

There was at least one visible hole and AR ran the wrong way and was stuffed.  Someone posted a video of the play on one of the OL threads.  Well worth watching.  AR would have easily scored after two great blocks by Kelly and Fries and Nelson had his man sealed off.  He went left instead of where the play was designed to go right.  A rookie mistake I would say.  Playing more games with your OL will help correct that.  I am very encouraged by our OL play after one game.  We will see where it goes.

Right. The line did a nice job on the QB option runs, which is probably the reason for the high pff grades.

However, I would like to see how the o-line would have graded out on only normal (handoff) running plays to the half-back, and not QB option plays. On those handoffs, I really didn't see anywhere for Jackson to run.

 

[DougDew]

41 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

I believe, too many here, take pff focus computer rankings as gospel truth. From personally watching the game replay, I can say the Colts line (rushing) certainly did not look like 10th best. However, I did not watch all 16 games. That being said, I still doubt 22 other teams did a worse job run blocking than we did in week one.

Others are more PFF experts than I am, but I believe the PFF grades for individual players are mainly based upon experienced human evaluators watching the plays....much like coaches grade players during a game.  The computer stuff just tosses the grades around different ways to spread and compare.

 

If someone has issues with the grades, then they have issues with the PFF graders...which may be appropriate.  One problem is that PFF doesn't really know what play was called all of the time, so who was supposed to block who or which receiver should have rune which route is kind of a blind spot for them.

[1959Colts]

29 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Others are more PFF experts than I am, but I believe the PFF grades for individual players are mainly based upon experienced human evaluators watching the plays....much like coaches grade players during a game.  The computer stuff just tosses the grades around different ways to spread and compare.

 

If someone has issues with the grades, then they have issues with the PFF graders...which may be appropriate.  One problem is that PFF doesn't really know what play was called all of the time, so who was supposed to block who or which receiver should have rune which route is kind of a blind spot for them.

I get it. But do you see where I am coming from? The run blocking, at least on handoffs, looked atrocious. I have to assume, the reason we graded out as 10th best, had to be, that AR-5's runs padded the statistics? So I guess I am ok with that.

But my point is, after watching game one, I would not get too excited about our run blocking, until they find a way to open some holes for the RBs 

We cannot expect Richardson to be our primary weapon in the running game. if that's the case, he's bound to get hurt.