Training Camp Day 12 8-16 Joint practice with Bears

[Smonroe]

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

 

Oh Cr*P!  That really sucks.  Our best gunner.

 

I hope he can recover and play again.  I know the coaches and the team loves the guy.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

13 hours ago, csmopar said:

Kelly Smith and fries

Just realized smith practiced yesterday.

[throwing BBZ]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I expected it in June. At this point, I don't expect any major changes, and I think that's a mistake.

 

 There are no major changes available. The couple guys that "might" be slight improvement, would not be here more than this season. They are mediocre.

 At final cuts there will be opportunities for other mediocre players to acquire or pick up. 

 If Steichen had asked for one of these "Major" guys, Ballard would have acted. They know more, and are much wiser to the matter than Anyone here.

 I 100% guarantee there are several roster bubble guys they know of and like that are targets. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This opens things up for another WR to make the team.

[MikeCurtis]

13 hours ago, w87r said:

It's nice that Freeland continues to see major reps.

 

With Pinter running with the 1's the last couple days, seems like he is in driver seat for backup Center spot, plus in a pinch(pretty bad pinch,lol), he can supply some guard depth or Blocking TE in GL

 

 

Hopefully Buckner is good and will be back shortly. That defense looks good with him back.

 

 

Edit: Disclaimer, this is in no way shape or form to ever see Pinter at Guard.

 

Just an observation of him running start center with Kelly out.

I truly hope that they bring in a FA (Risner or someone else) at RG

 

I dont see ANY player on this team that would fill that role

 

We have a bit of cap space, and a rookie QB needs to not have to worry about getting hit every play...... it WILL limit his development

 

 

[Superman]

15 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 There are no major changes available. The couple guys that "might" be slight improvement, would not be here more than this season. They are mediocre.

 At final cuts there will be opportunities for other mediocre players to acquire or pick up. 

 If Steichen had asked for one of these "Major" guys, Ballard would have acted. They know more, and are much wiser to the matter than Anyone here.

 I 100% guarantee there are several roster bubble guys they know of and like that are targets. 

 

There are no major changes available now. There were in June. (And in fact, I think there's still a player or two out there who would be a significant upgrade over what we currently have at RG. I'm not out there banging the table for Dalton Risner and I don't know what his contract demands are, but no doubt in my mind he's better than Will Fries and Danny Pinter.) There is also a trade market.

 

My point is that, IMO, RG is the weakest link on the team, and I think improving that spot should have been more of a priority all along. Hopefully the guys we have can step up and perform well, but I think it made sense to wait and see last season. Not so much this year, when we saw our assortment of JAGs get whipped all year. And even if Fries is "average" this year, there's no proven depth behind him.

 

11 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

We have a bit of cap space, and a rookie QB needs to not have to worry about getting hit every play...... it WILL limit his development

 

I think the scheme will help the QB protect himself. I'm more concerned with our ability to run block.

[Colts.sb41]

32 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

This opens things up for another WR to make the team.

Or another TE

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

I think Ballard is hoping someone useable will be available when another team cut to the 53 roster. But it is a gamble as the NFL isn’t exactly flooded with cheap quality O linemen, so it looks like a fail again, unfortunately.

Risner and Norwell are smart for waiting to sign.  Both should get nice contracts. So I would be surprised if we signed one of them.  We will need to get lucky on cut down day.  So many teams are in need of OL.  I think Ballards best chance to get a player he would want is trading for him before cut downs.  Hoping that happens.

[throwing BBZ]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There are no major changes available now. There were in June. (And in fact, I think there's still a player or two out there who would be a significant upgrade over what we currently have at RG. I'm not out there banging the table for Dalton Risner and I don't know what his contract demands are, but no doubt in my mind he's better than Will Fries and Danny Pinter.) There is also a trade market.

 

My point is that, IMO, RG is the weakest link on the team, and I think improving that spot should have been more of a priority all along. Hopefully the guys we have can step up and perform well, but I think it made sense to wait and see last season. Not so much this year, when we saw our assortment of JAGs get whipped all year. And even if Fries is "average" this year, there's no proven depth behind him.

 

 

I think the scheme will help the QB protect himself. I'm more concerned with our ability to run block.

 

  We may pay up for a veteran  C or G next season, but much has to be done through the draft. Posters are in a rush to get the pieces and it's human nature. Freeland is a big key. When he gets their confidence, the RG is fixed extremely well with Smith.

[Superman]

8 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  We may pay up for a veteran  C or G next season, but much has to be done through the draft. Posters are in a rush to get the pieces and it's human nature. Freeland is a big key. When he gets their confidence, the RG is fixed extremely well with Smith.

 

They showed a willingness to move Smith around last year. If Freeland is able to start at RT -- and he did okay on Saturday -- that might be an option. It's not what they're doing so far, though, and it's kind of a long shot. 

 

Everyone knows I'm not the guy always complaining and being critical of the front office, but I think they've had some missteps at OL for the past two years, and I'm not sure they'll be back on track just yet.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think most clubs struggle to find Oline depth. There is a shortage. That’s why you really have to use the draft. Not 6th or 7th rounders either. Need to use the first 3 rounds. Doesn’t excuse Ballard though for not addressing it better.

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

They showed a willingness to move Smith around last year. If Freeland is able to start at RT -- and he did okay on Saturday -- that might be an option. It's not what they're doing so far, though, and it's kind of a long shot. 

 

Everyone knows I'm not the guy always complaining and being critical of the front office, but I think they've had some missteps at OL for the past two years, and I'm not sure they'll be back on track just yet.

 

With a new OL coach, he is going to give our existing guys all the rope we need so as not to ruffle feathers right away. However, he is also not tied to playing anyone once the dust settles. So hopefully, we figure out the right combination.

 

Folks out of the draft do better at OT than OG, from an assignment and strength point of view. So shuffling Freeland to start at RT makes a lot of sense. Plus, we have to see if Pinter can replace Kelly at center. Maybe they are showcasing Kelly before a trade?? If we don't want a lot of money tied up in our 3 middle OL (assuming Smith moves inside), Kelly does become the odd man out, IMO.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

With a new OL coach, he is going to give our existing guys all the rope we need so as not to ruffle feathers right away. However, he is also not tied to playing anyone once the dust settles. So hopefully, we figure out the right combination.

 

Folks out of the draft do better at OT than OG, from an assignment and strength point of view. So shuffling Freeland to start at RT makes a lot of sense. Plus, we have to see if Pinter can replace Kelly at center. Maybe they are showcasing Kelly before a trade?? If we don't want a lot of money tied up in our 3 middle OL (assuming Smith moves inside), Kelly does become the odd man out, IMO.

 

That's another consideration, and a good point. It's possible that our previous OL coach wasn't doing a good job. But we didn't hire a heavy hitter, we have a first year OL coach stepping in. I hope he does well, he has good pedigree, and that might make a big difference. But early on, it doesn't sound like guys like Pinter, Fries, etc., are showing anything more than what they showed last year.

 

I like Pinter coming out, he had some good tape in college. I don't think he's good enough, though, and that's after three seasons of watching him. I hope he has a great year, but I'm not looking forward to him taking over for Ryan Kelly. 

[chad72]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That's another consideration, and a good point. It's possible that our previous OL coach wasn't doing a good job. But we didn't hire a heavy hitter, we have a first year OL coach stepping in. I hope he does well, he has good pedigree, and that might make a big difference. But early on, it doesn't sound like guys like Pinter, Fries, etc., are showing anything more than what they showed last year.

 

I like Pinter coming out, he had some good tape in college. I don't think he's good enough, though, and that's after three seasons of watching him. I hope he has a great year, but I'm not looking forward to him taking over for Ryan Kelly. 

 

Bengals have invested a lot in their OL lately. Jonah Williams is looking for a good payday.

 

Hakeem Adeniji, Orlando Brown Jr., Jackson Carman, Cody Ford, D'Ante Smith, Jonah Williams

 

They are all listed as tackles. Only 3 of them can start, tops. I would be on the phone with the Bengals to get the best RG candidate out of that lot of OTs. Their OT group is 3 deep on both sides, IMO. One of them has to be a good RG candidate, IMO. Their RT depth is better than LT depth, and our need is on the right side. Word is Carman is more suited for RG and could be on the trade block.

 

LT Depth

Orlando Brown Jr., Hakeem Adeniji, D'Ante Smith

 

RT Depth

Jonah Williams, La'el Collins, Jackson Carman, Cody Ford

[MikeCurtis]

2 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Risner and Norwell are smart for waiting to sign.  Both should get nice contracts. So I would be surprised if we signed one of them.  We will need to get lucky on cut down day.  So many teams are in need of OL.  I think Ballards best chance to get a player he would want is trading for him before cut downs.  Hoping that happens.

I hope you are right, but if we wait, we may NOT be lucky

 

I cant imagine goin into the season with our current solution at RG..... Its that bad

 

I would take a swing at one of these guys, and let them get in sync, before opening day

 

 

 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I think most clubs struggle to find Oline depth. There is a shortage. That’s why you really have to use the draft. Not 6th or 7th rounders either. Need to use the first 3 rounds. Doesn’t excuse Ballard though for not addressing it better.

I totally agree.  I was listening to an ex front office guy and he basically stated that there is a shortage of good Oline men. That is totally reflective in salaries for guards and how salaries have  gone thru thr roof. Not a premium position but shortage of good players. It is the exact opposite of the rb postion. Lots of guys out there there to fill in and recent history has shown us this.

[Moosejawcolt]

35 minutes ago, MikeCurtis said:

I hope you are right, but if we wait, we may NOT be lucky

 

I cant imagine goin into the season with our current solution at RG..... Its that bad

 

I would take a swing at one of these guys, and let them get in sync, before opening day

 

 

 

Although, I agree that the RG position is concerning. However if this offence fails, I am totally confident, in saying that it won't be because of poor play at RG. 

[Moosejawcolt]

40 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Bengals have invested a lot in their OL lately. Jonah Williams is looking for a good payday.

 

Hakeem Adeniji, Orlando Brown Jr., Jackson Carman, Cody Ford, D'Ante Smith, Jonah Williams

 

They are all listed as tackles. Only 3 of them can start, tops. I would be on the phone with the Bengals to get the best RG candidate out of that lot of OTs. Their OT group is 3 deep on both sides, IMO. One of them has to be a good RG candidate, IMO. Their RT depth is better than LT depth, and our need is on the right side. Word is Carman is more suited for RG and could be on the trade block.

 

LT Depth

Orlando Brown Jr., Hakeem Adeniji, D'Ante Smith

 

RT Depth

Jonah Williams, La'el Collins, Jackson Carman, Cody Ford

There is probably not one team  in the NFL that does not have some issues along their Oline. It is up to the coaches to mask the issue. Gobs of money and assets were spent on the Oline. It is time for Nelson, Kelly and Smith to show us what  they are worth. To me, if this Oline is not able to rise above inferior RG play, then man we have a much larger problem.

[Nickster]

8 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I totally agree.  I was listening to an ex front office guy and he basically stated that there is a shortage of good Oline men. That is totally reflective in salaries for guards and how salaries have  gone thru thr roof. Not a premium position but shortage of good players. It is the exact opposite of the rb postion. Lots of guys out there there to fill in and recent history has shown us this.

 

Simple unseen hand of supply and demand.  Or in this case i guess the hand is visible lol. 

[TimetobringDfence!]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

There is probably not one team  in the NFL that does not have some issues along their Oline. It is up to the coaches to mask the issue. Gobs of money and assets were spent on the Oline. It is time for Nelson, Kelly and Smith to show us what  they are worth. To me, if this Oline is not able to rise above inferior RG play, then man we have a much larger problem.

You are right in this statement. Our problem has been the lingering health issues of these three. It may be considered more bad luck than normal. My problem is Ballard knows of this issue going into this season and didn't bring in any veteran depth. Regardless of money and we have cap space he should have spent a little on depth. If one or more of these players goes down we are in deep trouble. He preached trenches taking the GM job here, and seems to have fell asleep on his believes going into this season. If we are a dumpster fire this year upfront I think he should be on the hotseat...

[KB]

1 minute ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

You are right in this statement. Our problem has been the lingering health issues of these three. It may be considered more bad luck than normal. My problem is Ballard knows of this issue going into this season and didn't bring in any veteran depth. Regardless of money and we have cap space he should have spent a little on depth. If one or more of these players goes done we are in deep trouble. He preached trenches taking the GM job here, and seems to have fell asleep on his believes going into this season. If we are a dumpster fire this year upfront I think he should be on the hotseat...

I have been a Ballard supporter, but if we do not improve on the o-line this year he should be shown the door. At his end of season press conference he talked about his mistakes with how he viewed the o-line going into last season. He made the same exact mistakes. The only difference is we have someone who legitimately could be our future at LT. For someone who says the game is won in the trenches, having back to back off-season where the o-line was barely improved (if at all), he is not doing his job of making sure the lines are and remain a strength of this team.

[csmopar]

5 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Just realized smith practiced yesterday.

I thought the tweet showed he was out?

[Superman]

30 minutes ago, KB said:

I have been a Ballard supporter, but if we do not improve on the o-line this year he should be shown the door. At his end of season press conference he talked about his mistakes with how he viewed the o-line going into last season. He made the same exact mistakes. The only difference is we have someone who legitimately could be our future at LT. For someone who says the game is won in the trenches, having back to back off-season where the o-line was barely improved (if at all), he is not doing his job of making sure the lines are and remain a strength of this team.

 

Reasonable points from both of you here. I wonder if Jeff Saturday shined a light on some deficiencies with the coaching. We made some immediate lineup changes, and I would imagine some of the accountability that we heard about was new to the team. It might be that the front office felt like the players we have are capable of more than what they've done so far, and want to see how it looks with the new staff.

 

But I agree, if we're deficient at OL this season, it's a mark against Ballard. IMO, it should have been the second priority behind QB.

[KB]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Reasonable points from both of you here. I wonder if Jeff Saturday shined a light on some deficiencies with the coaching. We made some immediate lineup changes, and I would imagine some of the accountability that we heard about was new to the team. It might be that the front office felt like the players we have are capable of more than what they've done so far, and want to see how it looks with the new staff.

 

But I agree, if we're deficient at OL this season, it's a mark against Ballard. IMO, it should have been the second priority behind QB.

I believe you're correct with the idea of they like who they have and believe they can get better. Nothing wrong with that. Competition should of been brought in to push them. If they think Fries has the potential to become a full time starter then Fries should be given the chance to compete and earn the spot. Either Fries gets it and the other is depth, or vice versa.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

12 minutes ago, KB said:

I believe you're correct with the idea of they like who they have and believe they can get better. Nothing wrong with that. Competition should of been brought in to push them. If they think Fries has the potential to become a full time starter then Fries should be given the chance to compete and earn the spot. Either Fries gets it and the other is depth, or vice versa.

Oline should be handled like the TE position has been. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

27 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I thought the tweet showed he was out?

Pretty sure it said he was back.  Can double check because sometimes I read stuff too fast lol.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

29 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I thought the tweet showed he was out?

 

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, KB said:

I believe you're correct with the idea of they like who they have and believe they can get better. Nothing wrong with that. Competition should of been brought in to push them. If they think Fries has the potential to become a full time starter then Fries should be given the chance to compete and earn the spot. Either Fries gets it and the other is depth, or vice versa.

 

I agree. We made good use of journeyman guys like Glowinski and Reed, but neither of them were world beaters and should not be too difficult to replace. But we've gone with young, unproven guys, and little proven depth. It didn't look good last year, and I'm not encouraged about it this year. The biggest hope is that coaching makes a huge difference.

[compuls1v3]

Don't ya'll sleep on that Bama kid.  He might develop nicely at guard this year, since we've accepted this as a year to grow in

[Scott Pennock]

The best option, in my humble opinion, has always been Freeland at RT and Smith back inside to RG. It's much easier to avoid pressure from the right side as a right-handed QB because he can see it more clearly.....and AR5 has MUCH more mobility to escape the pocket or duck underneath the outside rush to his throwing side.

 

But, I'm not the coach so it's up to them to figure out the best 5

[AKB]

1 hour ago, Scott Pennock said:

The best option, in my humble opinion, has always been Freeland at RT and Smith back inside to RG. It's much easier to avoid pressure from the right side as a right-handed QB because he can see it more clearly.....and AR5 has MUCH more mobility to escape the pocket or duck underneath the outside rush to his throwing side.

 

But, I'm not the coach so it's up to them to figure out the best 5

I think its time to move on from Ryan Kelly. 

 

And yes, I would like to see Freeland as our RT, and Smith as our RG

[Scott Pennock]

1 hour ago, AKB said:

I think its time to move on from Ryan Kelly. 

 

And yes, I would like to see Freeland as our RT, and Smith as our RG

Pinter has shown to be an adequate Center - and French/Shepley (SP?) seem to be alright as well. May be our deepest spot on the line right now. 

 

The FO would have to have some stones to cut Kelly right now........though he'd get a job rather quickly somewhere else even for as bad as we think he's been he's still better than some out there!

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, AKB said:

I think its time to move on from Ryan Kelly. 

 

And yes, I would like to see Freeland as our RT, and Smith as our RG

 

  Uhh probably not. I think they highly value (for this season) Kelly's mind/experience. Even if we just get 12 mediocre games. Because he will make calls better than Pinter or French, and pick up blitzes better with his guards. So I would bet there is Zero% odds that your idea is being given ANY consideration. Good talk.

[throwing BBZ]

8 hours ago, compuls1v3 said:

Don't ya'll sleep on that Bama kid.  He might develop nicely at guard this year, since we've accepted this as a year to grow in

 

 I would bet Bama kid is getting trained up to participate in Steichen's 4th and 1 push'em package. I could see them attempting to stash him on the PS initially. Of course OL is a scary position to do that with.

[richard pallo]

7 hours ago, Scott Pennock said:

The best option, in my humble opinion, has always been Freeland at RT and Smith back inside to RG. It's much easier to avoid pressure from the right side as a right-handed QB because he can see it more clearly.....and AR5 has MUCH more mobility to escape the pocket or duck underneath the outside rush to his throwing side.

 

But, I'm not the coach so it's up to them to figure out the best 5

I think starting Freeland at RT would be very risky.  Smith has already earned an extension there and he is a very good RT.  Keeping him there would help with AR’s development versus a rookie who’s going to make mistakes and cause him to not go through is progression’s.  If RG is our weakest position it’s not the end of the world.  We can still function with effectiveness.  If either tackle is the weakest position we have a more serious problem imo. We saw it at LT last year and we’ve seen it when Smith misses a few games as well.  Tackles get paid the big money for a reason.  There jobs are more valuable.  I trust the coaches to figure it out too.   I’m more concerned with the interior depth players than I am the starters right now.  I wouldn’t mind it at all if we acquired an upgrade at RG but I realistically don’t see it happening.  A better depth player is more likely I think.

[AKB]

13 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  Uhh probably not. I think they highly value (for this season) Kelly's mind/experience. Even if we just get 12 mediocre games. Because he will make calls better than Pinter or French, and pick up blitzes better with his guards. So I would bet there is Zero% odds that your idea is being given ANY consideration. Good talk.

good points, im still ready for our next center