I do a lot of lists but if Pat Mahomes wins the SB this year does he deserve top 5 of all-time convo?

[2006Coltsbestever]

My list is:

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Johnny Unitas

5. John Elway

 

All 5 of those guys have won at least 2 SB's and at least 1 MVP (Unitas won 1 SB but 2 NFL Championships - same difference), Peyton won 5 MVP's for the most. If Mahomes wins the SB this year it will be his 2nd SB win and he still in his prime and he does have an MVP.

[2006Coltsbestever]

41 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My list is:

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Johnny Unitas

5. John Elway

 

All 5 of those guys have won at least 2 SB's and at least 1 MVP (Unitas won 1 SB but 2 NFL Championships - same difference), Peyton won 5 MVP's for the most. If Mahomes wins the SB this year it will be his 2nd SB win and he still in his prime and he does have an MVP.

I remember being at the 4th and 2 game (2009), it was a great Sunday night. I went with 3 other friends and we had Pizza at the game and probably had around 3 or 4 huge beers a piece . We were around several Pats fans and were down 34-21 in the 4th, they were talking smack. They were cool though, it was fun smack talk. I told 1 guy that had a Brady jersey on, you are about to see the best ever do it, he just laughed. Then there it happened! 35-34 Colts win. After the game, he admitted to me saying "I have watched football for 50 years and you guys have a great QB, he beat us when it counted in 2006 too" - he was an older guy. My greatest game I ever attended. LOS was rocking that night. Rivalry's are cool - I even bought the guy a beer and we talked about the Tom and Red Sox Baseball  

[csmopar]

58 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My list is:

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Johnny Unitas

5. John Elway

 

All 5 of those guys have won at least 2 SB's and at least 1 MVP (Unitas won 1 SB but 2 NFL Championships - same difference), Peyton won 5 MVP's for the most. If Mahomes wins the SB this year it will be his 2nd SB win and he still in his prime and he does have an MVP.

Well for starters, your list is wrong.

 Mahomes is a great player, great QB. But he doesn’t crack that top 5 list. Simply because he hasn’t transformed football(yet) at the QB position in the ways others on that list have. 
 

stats aside, I’d put him just outside that list .

[JediXMan]

Top 10 for sure, top 5 is way too early even with another ring.

[chad72]

He was drafted in 2017, I would wait till 2027 to cross off the longevity checklist and he needs at least 2 SBs

[lollygagger8]

[2006Coltsbestever]

Don't have him top 5 yet but thanks for the input, top 10 would be debatable I guess. My top 5 guys had longevity of course. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, csmopar said:

Well for starters, your list is wrong.

 Mahomes is a great player, great QB. But he doesn’t crack that top 5 list. Simply because he hasn’t transformed football(yet) at the QB position in the ways others on that list have. 
 

stats aside, I’d put him just outside that list .

Who is your top 5, Mahomes isn't in my top 5, I just asked the question. I know people in here hate Elway but I am going by football play only, not favorites. To say my top 5 is wrong and not list your own 5 is unlike you. The 5 I have many would agree that is a solid list. 

[teganslaw]

No. He needs to be the NFL longer than he has. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, teganslaw said:

No. He needs to be the NFL longer than he has. 

I pretty much agree, longevity is important. 

[chad72]

I will tell you this. Midwesterners don’t like the “look at me generation” that Mahomes is a part of. Then there are the Brady jock sniffers who don’t want dynasty talk with Reid and Mahomes to infringe on what they enjoyed with Brady.

Then there’s the old school crowd that wants the “buttoned up QB, tell me what I want to hear” that can’t handle Mahomes and his incessant visibility. I mean, Brady didn’t do commercials as much till he won about 4 or 5 SBs. But then Peyton Manning or Patrick Mahomes don’t  have multi-millionaire wives. 

 

The more that the above kind hate on Mahomes, the more inclined I’m to root for him. I’m not one bit afraid to say it or admit it. Still Mahomes has to walk the talk and win on the field.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, chad72 said:

I will tell you this. Midwesterners don’t like the “look at me generation” that Mahomes is a part of. Then there are the Brady jock sniffers who don’t want dynasty talk with Reid and Mahomes to infringe on what they enjoyed with Brady.

Then there’s the old school crowd that wants the “buttoned up QB, tell me what I want to hear” crowd that can’t handle Mahomes and his incessant visibility. I mean, Brady didn’t do commercials as much till he won about 4 or 5 SBs.

 

The more that the above kind hate on Mahomes, the more inclined to root for him. I’m not one but afraid to say it or admit it. Still Mahomes has to walk the talk and win on the field.

Mahomes needs another SB win to even sniff this discussion, then you have people that say Brady cheated, etc.. So I love these discussions. 

[chad72]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Mahomes needs another SB win to even sniff this discussion, then you have people that say Brady cheated, etc.. So I love these discussions. 

Oh yeah!! I rooted like crazy for Peyton to win his second SB so that he can be in the Top 5 discussion. He already had the longevity, records and MVPs at that point.
 

Mahomes, EVEN if he wins another SB, will get into the Top 10 at best and when he gets to a decade of high level QB play, then we can revisit. Because the winning came early like with Brady and those early SBs, Brady and Patriots/Bucs fans and Mahomes haters will be uniting in the “anyone but Mahomes” crowd.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Oh yeah!! I rooted like crazy for Peyton to win his second SB so that he can be in the Top 5 discussion. 
 

Mahomes, EVEN if he wins another SB, will get into the Top 10 at best and when he gets to a decade of high level QB play, then we can revisit. Because the winning came early like with Brady and those early SBs, Brady and Patriots/Bucs fans and Mahomes haters will be uniting in the “anyone but Mahomes” crowd.  

To me Rodgers legacy took a huge hit but he is still top 10. No top 5 for me though.

[FortheWin]

No. Not top 5 or even top 10.  He needs to play longer and stay consistent.  

[GoPats]

 

Winning his second, and appearing in his 3rd straight, would be a big step toward immortality, but it'll take a little more to crack the list. He has to stay healthy, and the Chiefs have to stay relevant, if he's going to get there. 

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

My list is:

1. Tom Brady

2. Joe Montana

3. Peyton Manning

4. Johnny Unitas

5. John Elway

 

All 5 of those guys have won at least 2 SB's and at least 1 MVP (Unitas won 1 SB but 2 NFL Championships - same difference), Peyton won 5 MVP's for the most. If Mahomes wins the SB this year it will be his 2nd SB win and he still in his prime and he does have an MVP.

Respectfully Your list is 100% wrong on top, imho. 

No ALL TIME GREAT list should include a known, habitual CHEATER..... unless of course the list is for all time cheaters... cheaters should be shunned, not glorified. 

 

Also, super bowl victories shouldn't be the measuring stick of greatest QB's ever, again imho.

 

Mahomes is excellent to say the least, but he plays in a pass friendly league with weapons galore and a great offensive mind HC....he couldn't have hand picked a better situation and era to play in.

He may turn out to be a all time great but it's still early on his career and if he stays healthy there will be plenty of time to crown him.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

Respectfully Your list is 100% wrong on top, imho. 

No ALL TIME GREAT list should include a known, habitual CHEATER..... unless of course the list is for all time cheaters... cheaters should be shunned, not glorified. 

 

Also, super bowl victories shouldn't be the measuring stick of greatest QB's ever, again imho.

 

Mahomes is excellent to say the least, but he plays in a pass friendly league with weapons galore and a great offensive mind HC....he couldn't have hand picked a better situation and era to play in.

He may turn out to be a all time great but it's still early on his career and if he stays healthy there will be plenty of time to crown him.

I respect your opinion but Tom didn't cheat in Tampa and still won. I think BB is the cheater but we can agree to disagree. Maybe Tom destroyed his phone because he had nude photo's of himself with Victoria Secret Models  

[LJpalmbeacher2]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I respect your opinion but Tom didn't cheat in Tampa and still won. I think BB is the cheater but we can agree to disagree. Maybe Tom destroyed his phone because he had nude photo's of himself with Victoria Secret Models  

Every season, regular season games & post season have been tainted. From the refs calls, former players testimony, and opposing coaches getting brain cramps like Shanahan in their 4th qtr collapse. And you seen yesterdays game in the 4th qtr....the rb fumbling twice, the center snap, Ramsey's play late. It almost happened again like vs the falcons but Cuup & Stafford hooked up on a bomb late.

Him losing made a lot, a lot of people happy and now will watch and enjoy the rest of the post season.

 

But like you said, we can agree to disagree lol

[2006Coltsbestever]

52 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

Every season, regular season games & post season have been tainted. From the refs calls, former players testimony, and opposing coaches getting brain cramps like Shanahan in their 4th qtr collapse. And you seen yesterdays game in the 4th qtr....the rb fumbling twice, the center snap, Ramsey's play late. It almost happened again like vs the falcons but Cuup & Stafford hooked up on a bomb late.

Him losing made a lot, a lot of people happy and now will watch and enjoy the rest of the post season.

 

But like you said, we can agree to disagree lol

I loved him losing yesterday 

[holeymoley99]

Otto Graham has to be included in any conversation, yes Football is a team game BUT 7 world title and 3 runner ups in his 10 seasons. No one will ever come close, not Tom not anyone. Greatest winning QB of all time.

[FortheWin]

14 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

Otto Graham has to be included in any conversation, yes Football is a team game BUT 7 world title and 3 runner ups in his 10 seasons. No one will ever come close, not Tom not anyone. Greatest winning QB of all time.

Graham played when there were 6 teams in the league.  

[holeymoley99]

6 hours ago, FortheWin said:

Graham played when there were 6 teams in the league.  

Thats not true at all, not sure where you read that. NFL was at 12-14 teams during Graham's run. The AAFC was smaller but at 8 clubs. Browns won multiple AAFC titles, several teams merged with the NFL and in their first year Browns won the NFL title. Both leagues were about at the same level overall but Browns mainly due to Graham were the dominant team in the nation. Different time sure whenever comparing modern to then there is a different but make no mistake Graham was and will always be the winningest QB in Pro Football history.

[FortheWin]

8 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Thats not true at all, not sure where you read that. NFL was at 12-14 teams during Graham's run. The AAFC was smaller but at 8 clubs. Browns won multiple AAFC titles, several teams merged with the NFL and in their first year Browns won the NFL title. Both leagues were about at the same level overall but Browns mainly due to Graham were the dominant team in the nation. Different time sure whenever comparing modern to then there is a different but make no mistake Graham was and will always be the winningest QB in Pro Football history.

Yeah. No merger. He was a great winner for sure but apples to oranges to compare to post 1970 football.

[Nesjan3]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:02 AM, lollygagger8 said:

this lol

[holeymoley99]

3 hours ago, FortheWin said:

Yeah. No merger. He was a great winner for sure but apples to oranges to compare to post 1970 football.

It is apples to oranges BUT again winning est QB in Pro Football History, its the same with Wilt Chamberlain greatest scorer in NBA history (They had to change many rules because he was so good and some cliam he was playing vs midgets when in fact avg NBA Centers he played against taller then today's NBA players).

 

Not honestly sure what the no merger comment meant, the merger took place Dec 9, 1949 when the Browns as well as SF 49'ers and Baltimore Colts all joined the NFL from the AAFC

[Four2itus]

Seriously? Compare his numbers with the top 10 QB's of all time. Will he get there? Maybe. Does he deserve this convo now.

 

Nope. 

[FortheWin]

11 hours ago, holeymoley99 said:

It is apples to oranges BUT again winning est QB in Pro Football History, its the same with Wilt Chamberlain greatest scorer in NBA history (They had to change many rules because he was so good and some cliam he was playing vs midgets when in fact avg NBA Centers he played against taller then today's NBA players).

 

Not honestly sure what the no merger comment meant, the merger took place Dec 9, 1949 when the Browns as well as SF 49'ers and Baltimore Colts all joined the NFL from the AAFC

I say apples to oranges because context matters.  Most folks put Graham in the historical category for his time understanding that the NFL really didn't become the NFL as we know it today until 1970 with the merger of the two leagues into one league. I think what is amazing is Brady actually equaled Graham's titles during an era of football when the second most is at 4.  To me that is the ultimate separator for Brady in terms of team sports and of course all the major passing records on top and winning in both conferences.

[holeymoley99]

22 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

I say apples to oranges because context matters.  Most folks put Graham in the historical category for his time understanding that the NFL really didn't become the NFL as we know it today until 1970 with the merger of the two leagues into one league. I think what is amazing is Brady actually equaled Graham's titles during an era of football when the second most is at 4.  To me that is the ultimate separator for Brady in terms of team sports and of course all the major passing records on top and winning in both conferences.

I think to say NFL didnt become the NFL we know until the AFC merger is a minority view though more prevalent among younger individuals who are more separated from the time which happens in most anything. Would be hard to find many who still dont cite Unitas on all time lists and he is not much younger than Graham. The more teams in  league the more spread out the talent is. Brady played many more years than Graham and again Graham won the title 70% of his seasons and was runner up the other 30%. If going to win % he will never be touched.  Let's not forgot Bart Starr also won 7 Championships and finished with 2nd all time passer rating of all time behind...Graham

[FortheWin]

6 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

I think to say NFL didnt become the NFL we know until the AFC merger is a minority view though more prevalent among younger individuals who are more separated from the time which happens in most anything. Would be hard to find many who still dont cite Unitas on all time lists and he is not much younger than Graham. The more teams in  league the more spread out the talent is. Brady played many more years than Graham and again Graham won the title 70% of his seasons and was runner up the other 30%. If going to win % he will never be touched.  Let's not forgot Bart Starr also won 7 Championships and finished with 2nd all time passer rating of all time behind...Graham

I am in my mid 40s so not young but not really old (I hope :).  Don't mistake my intentions here.  I am not downgrading the old time greats premerger at all.  They were great players in their era.  But you would be hard pressed to find many who would cite any of them as being better QBs than the top modern QBs. I mean would you seriously say Graham is a better QB than Peyton?  I am sorry. But he does not even touch him much less Brady.  I realize it is hard to compare eras but many of the old time players do talk about the changes in the game and how much bigger, faster the players are not to mention the advanced schemes.

[2006Coltsbestever]

25 minutes ago, FortheWin said:

I am in my mid 40s so not young but not really old (I hope :).  Don't mistake my intentions here.  I am not downgrading the old time greats premerger at all.  They were great players in their era.  But you would be hard pressed to find many who would cite any of them as being better QBs than the top modern QBs. I mean would you seriously say Graham is a better QB than Peyton?  I am sorry. But he does not even touch him much less Brady.  I realize it is hard to compare eras but many of the old time players do talk about the changes in the game and how much bigger, faster the players are not to mention the advanced schemes.

I think Otto is top 10 out of respect but I have seen his stats and film on him. He isn't better than Brady, Montana, Peyton or Unitas. That is my opinion so some may disagree. Some say Sammy Baugh belongs in the top 5, he is regarded as a top 20 player ever but overall player because he punted and played D as well.

[2006Coltsbestever]

It is tough to compare to era's but the 1992 Dallas Cowboys could pretty much beat anyone today so could the 1989 49ers or the 1987 Lakers in B.Ball. The athlete's peaked out in the late 80's/90's. The 1995 Cowboys team had athlete's at every position that would dominate today = their O.Line alone was as big as anyone's today, - Emmitt, Troy, Michael, Deion, fast LB's in Smith, and Haley could dominate today as DE. We can't say that about a team from the 50's, 60's or even 70's because they didn't have the size or speed to keep up with teams from the 80's, 90's or today. It is obvious if someone looks at it realistically. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

The 1972 Dolphins would get beat badly if they played the 2006 Colts. It would not even be fair.

[holeymoley99]

27 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Otto is top 10 out of respect but I have seen his stats and film on him. He isn't better than Brady, Montana, Peyton or Unitas. That is my opinion so some may disagree. Some say Sammy Baugh belongs in the top 5, he is regarded as a top 20 player ever but overall player because he punted and played D as well.

The easiest to compare with is Unitas since they played close to the same time and I agree the game had certainly changed even during the short time . Unitas first year was Graham's last a passing of the torch so to speak.

 

https://nflcomparisons.com/johnny-unitas-vs-otto-graham-comparison/

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

The easiest to compare with is Unitas since they played close to the same time and I agree the game had certainly changed even during the short time . Unitas first year was Graham's last a passing of the torch so to speak.

 

https://nflcomparisons.com/johnny-unitas-vs-otto-graham-comparison/

I respect Otto, what impressed me about Unitas is he still threw for over 40,000 yards in an era that never would've dreamed of anyone doing that. He threw for basically the same amount of yards as Montana did. That is unreal for playing in the 50's/60's/early 70's. He also won an NFL Championships and a SB, Unitas is on my MT. Rushmore. My Rushmore is still Brady, Montana, Peyton, and Unitas but I understand Otto could be on that if some feel that way. People in here hate Elway  but he is right there. Mahomes is flat out awesome for this younger generation, if he wins a 2nd SB that is as many as Peyton won.

[holeymoley99]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I respect Otto, what impressed me about Unitas is he still threw for over 40,000 yards in an era that never would've dreamed of anyone doing that. He threw for basically the same amount of yards as Montana did. That is unreal for playing in the 50's/60's/early 70's. He also won an NFL Championships and a SB, Unitas is on my MT. Rushmore. My Rushmore is still Brady, Montana, Peyton, and Unitas but I understand Otto could be on that if some feel that way. People in here hate Elway  but he is right there. Mahomes is flat out awesome for this younger generation, if he wins a 2nd SB that is as many as Peyton won.

Unitas played as tv starting hitting it's stride, the Greatest Game Ever Played really captivated the nation and rose his profile so much.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, holeymoley99 said:

Unitas played as tv starting hitting it's stride, the Greatest Game Ever Played really captivated the nation and rose his profile so much.

That too but he was Mr. Colt IMO, Peyton out did him but barely. Peyton's 5 MVP's is what puts him in the Mt Rushmore + he did have 2 SB wins.

[chad72]

Premature @2006Coltsbestever  

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, chad72 said:

Premature @2006Coltsbestever  

It was a great question actually, I did say if he won his 2nd SB this year and so on. Great job by the Bengals . See all the people that bagged on Peyton only winning 2 now see how hard it really is to win just 2. Rodgers nor Brees did it either and they are top 10 ever. 

[coltsva]