Why did we start Wentz?

[Flash7]

I think it's simple: Reich and Co. believe that Wentz gives us the best chance to win, even with two injured ankles.

 

If an injured Wentz is better than a second year Eason or just off the practice squad, Hundley, then we can conclude that we were not prepared in the backup QB department. 

 

Regardless, I am under the impression that we have given up a 2022 1st round pick for Wentz, as I see no chance of the team not starting/playing Wentz, unless he is completely injured and cannot play. Wentz is a tough S.O.B. so he'll play through minor injuries.

[AKB]

3 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I think it's simple: Reich and Co. believe that Wentz gives us the best chance to win, even with two injured ankles.

 

If an injured Wentz is better than a second year Eason or just off the practice squad, Hundley, then we can conclude that we were not prepared in the backup QB department. 

 

Regardless, I am under the impression that we have given up a 2022 1st round pick for Wentz, as I see no chance of the team not starting/playing Wentz, unless he is completely injured and cannot play. Wentz is a tough S.O.B. so he'll play through minor injuries.

it shouldn't be up to Wentz. 

 

but yes i agree with pretty much everything you are saying

[Colt.45]

19 hours ago, MPStack said:

Wentz gives the Colts the best chance to win, that’s why he started. 
 

 

I'm going to start a thread addressing this very issue. The last thing the Colts need to be worrying about right now is winning. We need to find out what we have in Carson. A hobbled Carson distorts that image. He shouldn't have been out there.

[AKB]

Just now, Colt.45 said:

I'm going to start a thread addressing this very issue. The last thing the Colts need to be worrying about right now is winning. We need to find out what we have in Carson. A hobbled Carson distorts that image. He shouldn't have been out there.

good point.

[MPStack]

14 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

I'm going to start a thread addressing this very issue. The last thing the Colts need to be worrying about right now is winning. We need to find out what we have in Carson. A hobbled Carson distorts that image. He shouldn't have been out there.

I think you and many here are zeroed in on that 1st Rd pick next year. 
 

Do you honestly think if Wentz was so banged up, the FO would make Wentz play???

 

He is playing because he’s healthy enough and they weren’t giving up on the season after two games. 
 

Wentz gives the Colts the best chance to win and players play at not 100% all the time.

 

I have said numerous times, I did not like the trade, but Wentz has play admirably for the Colts thus far. A lot of other Colts, not so much.

 

Go Colts!

 

 

[Colt.45]

3 minutes ago, MPStack said:

I think you and many here are zeroed in on that 1st Rd pick next year. 
 

Do you honestly think if Wentz was so banged up, the FO would make Wentz play???

 

He is playing because he’s healthy enough and they weren’t giving up on the season after two games. 
 

Wentz gives the Colts the best chance to win and players play at not 100% all the time.

 

I have said numerous times, I did not like the trade, but Wentz has play admirably for the Colts thus far. A lot of other Colts, not so much.

 

Go Colts!

 

 

You looked at that game yesterday and thought, this gimpy flinching QB is healthy enough? I'm sorry, what i saw was malpractice. It's that exact same thinking that led us to Andrew Luck missing time IN CHUNKS. Sometimes you lose the battle so that you can win the war. What'd you find out about Carson yesterday? That he's tough? Yeah breaking news, we all knew that. That a hobbled Wentz can help us almost win in TN? At what cost? Have we seriously not learned anything from history? Not history of another franchise, history of our own team. RECENT history.

 

Admirably isn't enough. We need to know exactly what we have. That's the objective this year. We need to know whether we are in the QB market again in 22.

[JMichael557]

Wentz was clearly unable to play yesterday. Playing Wentz eliminated any chance of winning even with a 3-0 turnover margin. You have to be concerned with the mindset that let Wentz play. 

[cdgacoltsfan]

20 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

I was trying to play devil's advocate here. 

 

I really, genuinely do not understand why you start Wentz. People are saying he gave us the best chance to win...? 

 

How is that being calculated? I'd like to see the math on that. 

It's not math...it called football

[stitches]

20 hours ago, MPStack said:

Wentz gives the Colts the best chance to win, that’s why he started. 
 

 

He does if he's healthy. In the condition he played yesterday I doubt it. 

[AKB]

10 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

It's not math...it called football

chance is math.

 

statistic in particular. 

 

and football is largely influenced by math. everything is. 

[MPStack]

23 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

Admirably isn't enough. We need to know exactly what we have. That's the objective this year. We need to know whether we are in the QB market again in 22.

Strictly my opinion, the acquisition of Wentz was to continue another playoff run in 2021, not find out if he’s the QB of the future. The trade assets involved reinforce that. 
 

I think it was a gamble, with Wentz injury history.  He’a been a bright spot thus far, because a lot of Colts players are hurt, underperforming or haven’t “developed.” 
 

I hate potentially losing a 1st Rd pick, but I’m firmly against tanking, especially if Wentz is healthy enough to play. 
 

 

[stitches]

1 minute ago, MPStack said:

Strictly my opinion, the acquisition of Wentz was to continue another playoff run in 2021, not find out if he’s the QB of the future. The trade assets involved reinforce that. 
 

I think it was a gamble, with Wentz injury history.  He’a been a bright spot thus far, because a lot of Colts players are hurt, underperforming or haven’t “developed.” 
 

I hate potentially losing a 1st Rd pick, but I’m firmly against tanking, especially if Wentz is healthy enough to play. 
 

 

Do you consider his condition "healthy enough to play" yesterday? Like... surely... as long as he has a heartbeat you can always trot him out there, but do you think the way he was forced to play is conducive to winning? Can we win with Wentz in this condition? To me the answer is quite clear. 

[MPStack]

13 minutes ago, stitches said:

He does if he's healthy. In the condition he played yesterday I doubt it. 

Honest question?

 

Are we questioning the Leadership or focused on next years 1st Rd pick?

[Colt.45]

6 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Strictly my opinion, the acquisition of Wentz was to continue another playoff run in 2021, not find out if he’s the QB of the future. The trade assets involved reinforce that. 
 

I think it was a gamble, with Wentz injury history.  He’a been a bright spot thus far, because a lot of Colts players are hurt, underperforming or haven’t “developed.” 
 

I hate potentially losing a 1st Rd pick, but I’m firmly against tanking, especially if Wentz is healthy enough to play. 
 

 

I think the risk element was definitely in play but what is that risk? And why is it a risk? It's a risk because we did not and still do not know whether he's that future QB. 

 

If the playoff run was the intent, then moving on from our leading EDGE rushers was a funny way of showing it. Drafting a 2nd round pick who'll miss time was a funny way of showing it. Refusing to extend Hilton was a funny way of showing it (and yes Chris Ballard was not interested in pushing for TY past a certain level).

 

Wentz has been better than i thought he'd be. I thought he'd be a total crapshow and he's been better than that. We have not been losing because of him....but we've not won because of him YET, and ultimately that's what you want of your future QB. You want to win because of him. Sure, you want a full team effort and all that but ultimately, the best QBs cover up your coaching and GM mistakes. It's what Luck did, it's what Peyton did. Can Carson do the same? THAT is what i mean when i say we need to know. If he's JAG (just another guy) then we need to be QB hunting in 2022 IMHO

[stitches]

8 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Honest question?

 

Are we questioning the Leadership or focused on next years 1st Rd pick?

IMO both are fair considerations to have when you look at how we've performed over the first 3 weeks. IMO it would be malpractice by Ballard to not start considering the 1st rd pick next year pretty soon. We put that stipulation about played snaps for a reason. You want to be happy to pay that 1st round pick at the end of the day and you don't want to be paying it for injured player who purely physically cannot perform to the level that will justify that 1st round pick(especially if it turns out a top 10 pick). Right now we are getting the worst of both worlds - first we are paying the premier asset and second we are paying it for injured player. This is precisely why you put that 70% threshold there. So if your QB is injured and cannot return the value on the field you would be paying lower price.

 

I have no idea why people are so dug in the notion that you cannot criticize the leadership of this team? What exactly have they done to deserve this reverence? What has the team shown in those 3 games (and hell, even in the 3 years before) that make us not want to question the leadership of the team? 

[MPStack]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

IMO both are fair considerations to have when you look at how we've performed over the first 3 weeks. IMO it would be malpractice by Ballard to not start considering the 1st rd pick next year pretty soon. We put that stipulation about played snaps for a reason. You want to be happy to pay that 1st round pick at the end of the day and you don't want to be paying it for injured player who purely physically cannot perform to the level that will justify that 1st round pick(especially if it turns out a top 10 pick). Right now we are getting the worst of both worlds - first we are paying the premier asset and second we are paying it for injured player. This is precisely why you put that 70% threshold there. So if your QB is injured and cannot return the value on the field you would be paying lower price.

 

I have no idea why people are so dug in the notion that you cannot criticize the leadership of this team? What exactly have they done to deserve this reverence? What has the team shown in those 3 games that make us not want to question the leadership of the team? 

Very fair observation.  I’ve stated more times than I can count, that the trade was a gamble due to Wentz injury history.  The FO, traded for Wentz to be the QB to lead the Colts. Right now the trade doesn’t look good on so many levels and potentially losing the 1st and not make the playoffs is concerning. There is no way to sugar coat it. The wheels are falling off at the moment. 
 

 

[masterlock]

21 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

Club learned nothing from trotting a hurt Luck out all those years. 

If they miss the playoffs, AND give a high 1st round pick to the Eagles, the GM and coaches need to be thrown in the unemployment line.

I think you can't count on both of those things. If they didn't limit Wentz' snaps on Sunday, when they had every reason to do so, then I don't see them becoming suddenly prudent moving forward. By playing him on Sunday, they were basically saying, 'We're willing to put our star quarterback at risk of further injury to win a game. Short-term thinking IMO. If Wentz can physically stand, I think they'll play him, and he'll get 75% of the snaps.

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, MPStack said:

Very fair observation.  I’ve stated more times than I can count, that the trade was a gamble due to Wentz injury history.  The FO, traded for Wentz to be the QB to lead the Colts. Right now the trade doesn’t look good on so many levels and potentially losing the 1st and not make the playoffs is concerning. There is no way to sugar coat it. The wheels are falling off at the moment. 
 

 

Yeah... Wentz' injury risk was one of the considerations in that trade and IMO his health should definitely be one of the considerations about where you stand on him as a long-term solution for the Colts. If he cannot stay healthy then does it matter that he looks good when healthy? He's had injuries in pretty much every single year past his rookie year. Part of it is bad luck, but part of it is also the way he plays the game. 

 

Someone said earlier in the thread that Ballard didn't trade for Wentz to evaluate him, but for him to be our QB(might have been you, sorry don't remember). To some extent that's true... but I also think it's not all black and white. I think you collect information as you go along and reevaluate your previous assumptions and decisions based on new information. WIth that said... I don't know why Ballard wouldn't consider the 3 new foot injuries Wentz has had and his vaccination status during a pandemic as part of the decisionmaking process about whether or not Wentz should be our QB going forward. It all should be in consideration. The QB is too important for a football team for you to ignore availability concerns that were there before you traded for him and are ever present even now during the first few months of Wentz' tenure with the Colts.

 

This is the reason I want them to actually sit him now. I want him to get completely healthy and I want to see him play healthy football with us so we would have better idea about whether he's worth all the downsides. Right now we are not learning anything about Wentz besides that he looks bad when he cannot move and when his OL can't protect him. Sit both him and Q... and Braden... let them heal... and when they are ready get them back to play and lets have at least some valuable information come out of this year. 

[MPStack]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

Yeah... Wentz' injury risk was one of the considerations in that trade and IMO his health should definitely be one of the considerations about where you stand on him as a long-term solution for the Colts. If he cannot stay healthy then does it matter that he looks good when healthy? He's had injuries in pretty much every single year past his rookie year. Part of it is bad luck, but part of it is also the way he plays the game. 

 

Someone said earlier in the thread that Ballard didn't trade for Wentz to evaluate him, but for him to be our QB(might have been you, sorry don't remember). To some extent that's true... but I also think it's not all black and white. I think you collect information as you go along and reevaluate your previous assumptions and decisions based on new information. WIth that said... I don't know why Ballard wouldn't consider the 3 new foot injuries Wentz has had and his vaccination status during a pandemic as part of the decisionmaking process about whether or not Wentz should be our QB going forward. It all should be in consideration. The QB is too important for a football team for you to ignore availability concerns that were there before you traded for him and are ever present even now during the first few months of Wentz' tenure with the Colts.

 

This is the reason I want them to actually sit him now. I want him to get completely healthy and I want to see him play healthy football with us so we would have better idea about whether he's worth all the downsides. Right now we are not learning anything about Wentz besides that he looks bad when he cannot move and when his OL can't protect him. Sit both him and Q... and Braden... let them heal... and when they are ready get them back to play and lets have at least some valuable information come out of this year. 

I’m sure the FO, thought the ship was headed in the right direction and a solid replacement was needed for River’s to continue the playoff  hunt.
 

If, Ballard thought the Colts were not contenders, he would have looked at trading for a QB in the 2021 draft. Something the 49ers did. However, I think Ballard is too conservative for that with his history. Trading multiple first just isn’t in the cards with Ballard.

 

Right now, it’s hope Wentz is the “guy” and everyone else heals and develops. 
 

Regardless, I’m a Colts fan just like everyone else. Go Colts! 

 

 

 

[Colt.45]

23 minutes ago, masterlock said:

I think you can't count on both of those things. If they didn't limit Wentz' snaps on Sunday, when they had every reason to do so, then I don't see them becoming suddenly prudent moving forward. By playing him on Sunday, they were basically saying, 'We're willing to put our star quarterback at risk of further injury to win a game. Short-term thinking IMO. If Wentz can physically stand, I think they'll play him, and he'll get 75% of the snaps.

If they do that and force a gimpy QB out all year then both Ballard and Reich will deserve the firing and total loss of fan confidence that will follow.

[TimetobringDfence!]

22 hours ago, MPStack said:

Wentz gives the Colts the best chance to win, that’s why he started. 
 

 

One game vs. The Titans or the whole season? Big picture man. Wentz needs rest to heal. 

Just now, TimetobringDfence! said:

One game vs. The Titans or the whole season? Big picture man. Wentz needs rest to heal. 

If that's all he can do hurt and we are gonna keep starting that please shoot me now. 

[stitches]

24 minutes ago, MPStack said:

I’m sure the FO, thought the ship was headed in the right direction and a solid replacement was needed for River’s to continue the playoff  hunt.
 

If, Ballard thought the Colts were not contenders, he would have looked at trading for a QB in the 2021 draft. Something the 49ers did. However, I think Ballard is too conservative for that with his history. Trading multiple first just isn’t in the cards with Ballard.

 

Right now, it’s hope Wentz is the “guy” and everyone else heals and develops. 
 

Regardless, I’m a Colts fan just like everyone else. Go Colts! 

 

I mean... the 49ers traded up for a QB precisely because they think they are close and need a bit more from their QB. And I agree with them. 

 

Agree about Ballard being conservative... but to some extent... because he already did trade multiple high value picks for his QB + he's paying him 25M per year for the next 4 years. I broke it down before, but in essence we are not paying a ton less for Wentz than what the 49ers paid for Lance, just we are paying part of it in extra salary rather than in draft compensation. 

[SR711]

Despite all the blather otherwise, Wentz started because both Ballard and Reich had 0 confidence that a healthy Jacob Eason with a weeks preparation gave them any chance to win. 

 

Its more an indictment on the QB depth situation (for a starting Qb with injury history) than anything else as well some unfounded blind faith that the defense could somehow limit Tennessee to 15 pts or less to aid what was going to be an impotent offense.

[Colt.45]

 

[The Fish]

Wentz wants to play because his future is at stake. Yeah, he's getting paid this year, but despite what some of you keep telling me, nothing beyond this year is guaranteed for him. He can be traded without a crazy hit after this season.

 

Anyway, he's going to play because he gives the team the best chance to win and that's the name of the game. Over thinking it, while some points have merit, at the end of the day, it's not how NFL teams handle things. Tom Brady played with a busted up leg last year and people just congratulate him now for it. Guys play hurt, real hurt sometimes. If they're the best guy in the position group, then that's the guy who's going to go. 

 

You want a fix to this? Let Wentz do whatever he does, if it goes really well, awesome- if it doesn't? Go get Arron Rodgers this offseason. That's a SB contention move. I'm not sure there's another one in the deck for this team as of right now.

[BProland85]

Okay after seeing this and that Reich plans to continue to play Wentz makes me really question him. At what point will Irsay or someone step in to overrule Reich’s decision to play Wentz when he’s clearly hobbled out on the field?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/09/27/frank-reich-carson-wentz-came-out-ok-from-sundays-game/

 

[TimetobringDfence!]

2 hours ago, Colt.45 said:

I think the risk element was definitely in play but what is that risk? And why is it a risk? It's a risk because we did not and still do not know whether he's that future QB. 

 

If the playoff run was the intent, then moving on from our leading EDGE rushers was a funny way of showing it. Drafting a 2nd round pick who'll miss time was a funny way of showing it. Refusing to extend Hilton was a funny way of showing it (and yes Chris Ballard was not interested in pushing for TY past a certain level).

 

Wentz has been better than i thought he'd be. I thought he'd be a total crapshow and he's been better than that. We have not been losing because of him....but we've not won because of him YET, and ultimately that's what you want of your future QB. You want to win because of him. Sure, you want a full team effort and all that but ultimately, the best QBs cover up your coaching and GM mistakes. It's what Luck did, it's what Peyton did. Can Carson do the same? THAT is what i mean when i say we need to know. If he's JAG (just another guy) then we need to be QB hunting in 2022 IMHO

And as others have stated if he is your guy protect him and start Hindley for a week or two. In all honesty I say treat Miami like a bye week preseason game and let some guys heal.

Just now, TimetobringDfence! said:

And as others have stated if he is your guy protect him and start Hindley for a week or two. In all honesty I say treat Miami like a bye week preseason game and let some guys heal.

It's a long season and we can recover if we can get an extra week of healing and planning.

[Smoke317]

23 hours ago, AustinnKaine said:

You could clearly see his mobility was limited. I counted 5 missed throws where the receiver had considerable space. 2 of those would have been TD passes. 

 

Also, it is well known that throwing starts with your feet. 

 

Do we seriously lack that much confidence in our backups? We scored 16 points. If a healthy Eason, cannot put up 16 points, why is he on the roster? Why did we let Brissett walk for 3 backups that we can't play? 

 

Please don't confuse this for a panic thread. I am well aware of the injuries, and what this team was facing before the season even started. I think Reich did a lot better with the play calls this week. 

Because it’s all about Wentz.  The Colts are in a bind with him.  They are having to rebuild (hopefully still evaluating) him on the fly “in season” because he missed most of training camp.  Now he’s still missing practices because of injuries and playing hurt...  

 

But this game was a much needed lesson for Carson and a chance for Frank and CB to really evaluate whether he can quickly read through his progressions and make the throws an NFL QB is supposed to make from inside the pocket.  My contention has been that he hasn’t been doing that enough or when it mattered most the first 2 games and he was scrambling into big hits and injury.  Against the Titans, there would be no scrambling.  He’d have to stand in and deliver more often than not.

 

Now I know he was injured, but he chose to play.  So no excuses.  He played ok for being injured but once again he missed the critical throws that could have made that a win.  And he takes forever to get through progressions…  Dang near got Campbell killed AGAIN.  That man deserved more targets after taking that hit and coming back making big catches for him.  Do Frank & Carson know how to feed their playmakers?
 

He missed Pittman for TD.  Lead our receiver out the back of the end zone instead of towards the sideline where his route was taking him and he had more room.  The end of the half was embarrassing where he was either seeing ghosts or absolutely nothing at all.   Doyle was wide open on a crosser to get out of bounds and stop the clock.  Not getting up to the line and spiking the ball, instead looking to Reich for a play call.  Just wasting precious seconds and was gonna waste more…

 

I’m just not seeing it with Wentz but this was a good lesson in his supposed rebuild.  He needs to go break down that tape and get better off of it as a pocket passer because Miami is a must win.  If Carson loses to Jacoby, it’s gonna be on everyone to either keep riding the excuses or realize he just might not be that good anymore and we made a mistake in getting him. 
 

I’ve been calling for Eason and if the Colts didn’t take this opportunity to get a game of benching Wentz in under our belts and seeing what Eason has, then he’s clearly NOT or never will be ready.  So it must be Ehlinger we’re waiting on to take the reigns because Wentz is not the answer.  He seems like a great guy and he’s tough as nails but I just haven’t seen enough to make me believe that we can beat good teams with him as our starting QB week in and week out.  He’s 1 or 2 games away from officially becoming a “cooler”.  How long will CB & Frank keep their chips on this guy?

[Jackie Daytona]

23 hours ago, fire cartier said:

 Eason is a mess he play scared why they knew need try  Wentz. watch eason first game he deer in  the headlights. 

Say what?

[MPStack]

3 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Because it’s all about Wentz.  The Colts are in a bind with him.  They are having to rebuild (hopefully still evaluating) him on the fly “in season” because he missed most of training camp.  Now he’s still missing practices because of injuries and playing hurt...  

 

But this game was a much needed lesson for Carson and a chance for Frank and CB to really evaluate whether he can quickly read through his progressions and make the throws an NFL QB is supposed to make from inside the pocket.  My contention has been that he hasn’t been doing that enough or when it mattered most the first 2 games and he was scrambling into big hits and injury.  Against the Titans, there would be no scrambling.  He’d have to stand in and deliver more often than not.

 

Now I know he was injured, but he chose to play.  So no excuses.  He played ok for being injured but once again he missed the critical throws that could have made that a win.  And he takes forever to get through progressions…  Dang near got Campbell killed AGAIN.  That man deserved more targets after taking that hit and coming back making big catches for him.  Do Frank & Carson know how to feed their playmakers?
 

He missed Pittman for TD.  Lead our receiver out the back of the end zone instead of towards the sideline where his route was taking him and he had more room.  The end of the half was embarrassing where he was either seeing ghosts or absolutely nothing at all.   Doyle was wide open on a crosser to get out of bounds and stop the clock.  Not getting up to the line and spiking the ball, instead looking to Reich for a play call.  Just wasting precious seconds and was gonna waste more…

 

I’m just not seeing it with Wentz but this was a good lesson in his supposed rebuild.  He needs to go break down that tape and get better off of it as a pocket passer because Miami is a must win.  If Carson loses to Jacoby, it’s gonna be on everyone to either keep riding the excuses or realize he just might not be that good anymore and we made a mistake in getting him. 
 

I’ve been calling for Eason and if the Colts didn’t take this opportunity to get a game of benching Wentz in under our belts and seeing what Eason has, then he’s clearly NOT or never will be ready.  So it must be Ehlinger we’re waiting on to take the reigns because Wentz is not the answer.  He seems like a great guy and he’s tough as nails but I just haven’t seen enough to make me believe that we can beat good teams with him as our starting QB week in and week out.  He’s 1 or 2 games away from officially becoming a “cooler”.  How long will CB & Frank keep their chips on this guy?

So, Ballard traded two high picks for a QB (Wentz) to evaluate him and see if he can make throws from inside the pocket??? 
 

 

[Smoke317]

38 minutes ago, MPStack said:

So, Ballard traded two high picks for a QB (Wentz) to evaluate him and see if he can make throws from inside the pocket??? 
 

 

Maybe he thought Frank could fix him?  Between the injuries and maybe Wentz just being who he is, it’s been slow growth and improvement thus far. So they better be currently “evaluating” Wentz & not just hoping for a return to 2017.  He did improve some from game 1 to 2 as far as going through progressions. And game 3 forced him to stay in the pocket and read the defense.  Will he improve after game 3?  Guess we’ll find out in Miami. 
 

And I understand he was limited, but just like in the first 2 games, opportunities were there.  So despite his limitations and seeming continued regression from 2017, if he could just become more clutch on 3rd & 4th downs we could still win some games with him this season.  
 

I just hope CB & Frank aren’t beholden to sticking with him being mediocre for 13 games or however many it takes to give Eagles our 1st.  And both were clearly petrified of Eason going out there and making them both look completely incompetent.