Darius Leonard ranked 6th best Linebacker

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Oh, I know the answer to this one!

 

Because he CHEATED.

I think @Moosejawcoltjust used a bad example. Everyone's go to is the Patriots when debating a subject because they won 6 SB's. They are an extreme outlier and had the GOAT in Tom Brady for every single Championship. BB may even be the greatest coach ever but without Brady he doesn't win 6 Championships. Great coaches that have always put value on a player position wise are coaches like Dungy and Sean Payton. Dungy had Manning from 2002-2008 and only won 1 SB, Peyton had Brees for over a decade and only won 1 SB and that was gift wrapped by us in SB 44. People don't use those examples when making a point, they just go to the Pats, Pats done this and that. There hasn't been a franchise win more than 1 SB except the Pats going back to the 2010 season, that is over a decade.

[EastStreet]

On 6/4/2021 at 4:04 PM, PRnum1 said:

I agree.  Your skill positions will suffer.

 

Skill positions like a #1 WR and #1 CB

I won't say any specific position will suffer, but it will have impact in general. Likely an impact on FA spend. It also means you really have to hit on your early round picks (to ride those cheap rook contracts), and have to find great value in FA. 

 

I'm just hoping the salary cap take a nice tick up the next couple of years so the impact is reduced.

 

As far as WR is concerned, biggest thing we need is Campbell and Pittman to stay healthy and produce. Not sure how long TY will be around but even if we have to draft next year, you can generally find good WRs in the 2nd (since we likely won't have a 1st). I'm not a fan of using a 1st for WRs anyway unless we have several other bases covered. At CB, I'm good with Rhodes and Moore anchoring things. Just need someone to step up at CB2

[EastStreet]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:05 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

That's why I poo poo so much as u say it. I don't see a team winning a superbowl with this formula of spending so much on the Oline with no skill players to speak of as yet.

We have plenty of skill players. If anything, we have a bland scheme.

OL spend at this point is not something that that has prevented us from going deep into the playoffs, or will this year. It will likely impact us after this year if the salary cap doesn't start taking nice steps north.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 6/5/2021 at 6:38 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think @Moosejawcoltjust used a bad example. Everyone's go to is the Patriots when debating a subject because they won 6 SB's. They are an extreme outlier and had the GOAT in Tom Brady for every single Championship. BB may even be the greatest coach ever but without Brady he doesn't win 6 Championships. Great coaches that have always put value on a player position wise are coaches like Dungy and Sean Payton. Dungy had Manning from 2002-2008 and only won 1 SB, Peyton had Brees for over a decade and only won 1 SB and that was gift wrapped by us in SB 44. People don't use those examples when making a point, they just go to the Pats, Pats done this and that. There hasn't been a franchise win more than 1 SB except the Pats going back to the 2010 season, that is over a decade.

My point bout Bill was placing a value on a player/position. If Bill know that he is not going to pay a player his market value, he will trade him before the last year of his contract. That was my point

[Moosejawcolt]

On 6/5/2021 at 6:27 PM, Lucky Colts Fan said:

Oh, I know the answer to this one!

 

Because he CHEATED.

Oh for sure. And after he was caught doing what ever else was doing, he continued to win Super Bowls and play off games. Your turn.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

My point bout Bill was placing a value on a player/position. If Bill know that he is not going to pay a player his market value, he will trade him before the last year of his contract. That was my point

You never answered my point about Belichick who you seem to love. 
 

Drafted Guard Logan Mankins in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid guards. 
 

Drafted ILB Donta Hightower in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid LBers.

 

According to you, Belichick was wrong both times. 
 

He also drafted OLB Chandler Jones in the first round but when it was time to pay him, BB traded his best pass rusher.  Hasn’t been able to replace him since.

 

I don’t understand?   Doesn’t BB understand positional value?   According to you, 31 teams follow this, (just not the Colts)  and yet here are THREE key examples of BB not following it, yet things have worked out pretty well for BB.

 

What gives? 

[2006Coltsbestever]

33 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

You never answered my point about Belichick who you seem to love. 
 

Drafted Guard Logan Mankins in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid guards. 
 

Drafted ILB Donta Hightower in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid LBers.

 

According to you, Belichick was wrong both times. 
 

He also drafted OLB Chandler Jones in the first round but when it was time to pay him, BB traded his best pass rusher.  Hasn’t been able to replace him since.

 

I don’t understand?   Doesn’t BB understand positional value?   According to you, 31 teams follow this, (just not the Colts)  and yet here are THREE key examples of BB not following it, yet things have worked out pretty well for BB.

 

What gives? 

He will still try and come back with something but you got him here  . Great post, I didn't even think about bringing this up.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 6/7/2021 at 1:38 AM, Moosejawcolt said:

Oh for sure. And after he was caught doing what ever else was doing, he continued to win Super Bowls and play off games. Your turn.

I was just joking around.

 

But feel free to keep going with your comparison, because ironically Ballard has been building the Colts very similarly to how BB built the Pats.

 

Ballard just hasn’t had the luxury of a Tom Brady yet. Quite the opposite, actually with the QB carousel Ballard has had to deal with...

[Moosejawcolt]

18 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

I was just joking around.

 

But feel free to keep going with your comparison, because ironically Ballard has been building the Colts very similarly to how BB built the Pats.

 

Ballard just hasn’t had the luxury of a Tom Brady yet. Quite the opposite, actually with the QB carousel Ballard has had to deal with...

Not at all. Bill  values corners and mix and matches his Dline. He brings pressure from every where. Ballard does not value corners and I think that is his greatest down fall. Neither is really good at drafting skill players.

[Four2itus]

On 6/6/2021 at 11:20 PM, NewColtsFan said:

You never answered my point about Belichick who you seem to love. 
 

Drafted Guard Logan Mankins in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid guards. 
 

Drafted ILB Donta Hightower in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid LBers.

 

According to you, Belichick was wrong both times. 
 

He also drafted OLB Chandler Jones in the first round but when it was time to pay him, BB traded his best pass rusher.  Hasn’t been able to replace him since.

 

I don’t understand?   Doesn’t BB understand positional value?   According to you, 31 teams follow this, (just not the Colts)  and yet here are THREE key examples of BB not following it, yet things have worked out pretty well for BB.

 

What gives? 

Some people find fault with the coming of dawn. 

[NewColtsFan]

10 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Not at all. Bill  values corners and mix and matches his Dline. He brings pressure from every where. Ballard does not value corners and I think that is his greatest down fall. Neither is really good at drafting skill players.

Oh,  Dear God!        

[CurBeatElite]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:51 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I get all of that, of course if the run is obviously more impressive than a RB should deserve a higher grade but a lot of it is opinion when it comes to certain plays as well. You stated an obvious that if someone runs 20 yards untouched and tackled by a safety compared to someone who breaks tackles for 20 yards than is tackled by a safety should get the higher grade. Of course they should, what about my example above? Your example isn't anywhere close to mine. PFF misuses sample sizing as well, they do it all the time. You like PFF apparently and believe in it so we will just have agree to disagree. 

 

One last thing PFF has Leonard rated 6th, I have no clue how they came to that, see Fluke's post above. Going by that, Leonard is arguably the best LB to play at his position.  

 

LB is very difficult to judge as a whole.  Every LB position is quite different and the way defenses are schemed can make it difficult to judge players on different teams (e.g., a MLB in a 4-3 on one team may have very different assignments/roles than a ILB on a 3-4 or even a middle linebacker in another 4-3).  Not all players in every scheme are built to get a lot of tackles.. for example, during the Dungy era (in Tampa and Indy), the weakside LB was, by design, expected to get a lot of tackles while players in front of him and, oftentimes other LBers, were supposed to basically eat up blockers for the WLB to be free to make plays -- just because the WLB often had more tackles than the other LBers, doesn't mean he was the best LBer on the team, he was just playing a position more likely to see high tackle numbers.

 

On 5/30/2021 at 12:27 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stats are obviously real important because we can measure players to a point using them but they are not the tell all. Take Drew Brees for example:

80,358 Yards = 1st all-time

571 TD's = 2nd all-time

98.7 QB Passer Rating = 5th all-time

67.7 Completion % = 2nd all-time

280 Yards per game = 1st all-time 

 

 

-By every key statistical measure he should be hands down considered a Top 5 QB of all-time right? I have never heard 1 person on ESPN, NFL Channel, Fox, CBS, or in here say he is that. I don't think he is either but the major stats say he is. I do have him top 10 which is far from an insult but Brees is a perfect example to why eye test, clutchness of a player, and how many League MVP's have they won, and how many Championships they have won is important to factor in. It was a different time but Joe Montana didn't have near the stats that Brees has but everyone on planet earth that I know of has Montana ranked higher all-time. I think Montana was better as well, 4-0 in SB's, 0 INT's in all those SB's, and he won more League MVP's. Brees is better than Peyton than all the stats I listed above, is he better than Peyton, no and most people know he isn't. 

 

I think I'd put Brees in the top 5 of all time.  My guess is that DeShaun Watson (67.8 completion percentage) will drop over the course of his career and I think Brees is the most accurate QB of all time.  

 

That said, this argument is so hard to make.  The NFL now is way different than the Montana years, with very strict pass interference penalties and is a much more passer-friendly league than it used to be.  Brees played for a long-time, which is why he's so far up the list in all-time yards and TDs (though, he did throw for the most yards per game of any QB ever, outside of Mahommes who averages 307.7 ypg).  Longevity certainly factors into a player's greatness, though I'm not sure it is the best way to truly measure greatness -- e.g., if Peyton was fully healthy for a couple more seasons, he likely would have thrown for more TDs than Brees - probably by about 50.  Based on his short time in the league, Mahommes is on pace to be the best QB ever, by far... but say he had a career ending injury tomorrow, he likely wouldn't go down as the GOAT or really be in discussions about it.

 

Long story short, I think a lot of people would consider Brees in or right near the top 5 ever.  I don't see how you don't put him there.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

LB is very difficult to judge as a whole.  Every LB position is quite different and the way defenses are schemed can make it difficult to judge players on different teams (e.g., a MLB in a 4-3 on one team may have very different assignments/roles than a ILB on a 3-4 or even a middle linebacker in another 4-3).  Not all players in every scheme are built to get a lot of tackles.. for example, during the Dungy era (in Tampa and Indy), the weakside LB was, by design, expected to get a lot of tackles while players in front of him and, oftentimes other LBers, were supposed to basically eat up blockers for the WLB to be free to make plays -- just because the WLB often had more tackles than the other LBers, doesn't mean he was the best LBer on the team, he was just playing a position more likely to see high tackle numbers.

 

 

I think I'd put Brees in the top 5 of all time.  My guess is that DeShaun Watson (67.8 completion percentage) will drop over the course of his career and I think Brees is the most accurate QB of all time.  

 

That said, this argument is so hard to make.  The NFL now is way different than the Montana years, with very strict pass interference penalties and is a much more passer-friendly league than it used to be.  Brees played for a long-time, which is why he's so far up the list in all-time yards and TDs (though, he did throw for the most yards per game of any QB ever, outside of Mahommes who averages 307.7 ypg).  Longevity certainly factors into a player's greatness, though I'm not sure it is the best way to truly measure greatness -- e.g., if Peyton was fully healthy for a couple more seasons, he likely would have thrown for more TDs than Brees - probably by about 50.  Based on his short time in the league, Mahommes is on pace to be the best QB ever, by far... but say he had a career ending injury tomorrow, he likely wouldn't go down as the GOAT or really be in discussions about it.

 

Long story short, I think a lot of people would consider Brees in or right near the top 5 ever.  I don't see how you don't put him there.

I don't have Brees have in my top 5 and most don't on ESPN or the NFL Network. My top 5 are:

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Peyton

4. Unitas

5. Elway

-and by the way I think Rodgers is better than Brees all-time as well. Not only do I value stats but I also value League MVP's and the ability of a QB being able to lead his team to Championships. Rodgers has 3 League MVP's and Brees never won one. Brees was never considered the best QB of any year in his era as well. It was either Brady, Peyton, or Rodgers - then Mahomes in the latter years. This isn't a put down Brees session because I do have him top 10 but not top 5. Most have Brees around 10th if you google a lot of lists done by other football minds. 

[The Fish]

Rodgers passes my eye test in a comparison vs Brees. We might underrated Brees a bit, but he's generally had better teams and managed to go a stretch without doing much of anything. Rodgers is always right there.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, The Fish said:

Rodgers passes my eye test in a comparison vs Brees. We might underrated Brees a bit, but he's generally had better teams and managed to go a stretch without doing much of anything. Rodgers is always right there.

I agree, it is close but even by eye test I think Rodgers is slightly better. Same thing with Elway IMO but I am old enough to have seen him play his entire career.

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 6/7/2021 at 2:20 AM, NewColtsFan said:

You never answered my point about Belichick who you seem to love. 
 

Drafted Guard Logan Mankins in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid guards. 
 

Drafted ILB Donta Hightower in the first round and eventually made him one of the highest paid LBers.

 

According to you, Belichick was wrong both times. 
 

He also drafted OLB Chandler Jones in the first round but when it was time to pay him, BB traded his best pass rusher.  Hasn’t been able to replace him since.

 

I don’t understand?   Doesn’t BB understand positional value?   According to you, 31 teams follow this, (just not the Colts)  and yet here are THREE key examples of BB not following it, yet things have worked out pretty well for BB.

 

What gives? 

He still hasn't countered this, he can't  

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Oh,  Dear God!        

U called?!! Lol

[jvan1973]

6 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Not at all. Bill  values corners and mix and matches his Dline. He brings pressure from every where. Ballard does not value corners and I think that is his greatest down fall. Neither is really good at drafting skill players.

Complete nonsense

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Complete nonsense

With @Moosejawcoltlogic of thinking he would've never re-signed Ray Lewis or actually drafted him because he was a MLB and he ended up the greatest MLB of all-time. He would've let Ray walk and drafted or signed a DE or a CB lol. I am just going by how he is posting and the logic he is throwing out. There are so many outliers in sports and some of these people that put just position value or stats over everything are not looking at the whole picture. Leonard and Nelson are both outliers but  you will never convince him or a few of others of that. Lets just be glad Ballard is running the team.

 

I will change the subject a bit and move to the Titans signing Julio Jones and how a few in here say "that was a great move" @stitches. For the stat people here is something to ponder on, you do realize the Titans let Corey Davis walk which was a horrible move and they replaced him with a much older Julio Jones.

 

Last season stats:

Davis 14 GMS, 65 catches, 15.1 avg per catch - same deep threat, 5 TD's

Jones 9 GMS, 51 catches, 15.1 avg per catch - same deep threat, 3 TD's

 

-Julio played in 5 less games but stat wise both averaged 15.1 a catch and had Jones played in 14 games he would've had roughly about the same amount of catches, yards, and TD's that Davis had more than likely. It would be close, Jones may have had a few more catches in 14 GMS but it would be close. The Titans really didn't improve, they just filled a serious need so it was a 'good move'. Now if this had been Jones from 3 or 4 years ago than I would agree with the "great move part". Jones wasn't any better than Davis was last year and he was injured and I am surprised none of you stat guys have brought this up?? 

 

Why not just re-sign Davis who is only 26 years old instead of bringing in a guy that will be 33 years old after the season and will probably give you the same production that Davis would but only for a year or 2. Keyshawn Johnson brought up this exact same point on ESPN, he thinks they should've just re-signed Davis who has at least 5 more good-great years left.

[stitches]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

With @Moosejawcoltlogic of thinking he would've never re-signed Ray Lewis or actually drafted him because he was a MLB and he ended up the greatest MLB of all-time. He would've let Ray walk and drafted or signed a DE or a CB lol. I am just going by how he is posting and the logic he is throwing out. There are so many outliers in sports and some of these people that put just position value or stats over everything are not looking at the whole picture. Leonard and Nelson are both outliers but  you will never convince him or a few of others of that. Lets just be glad Ballard is running the team.

 

I will change the subject a bit and move to the Titans signing Julio Jones and how a few in here say "that was a great move" @stitches. For the stat people here is something to ponder on, you do realize the Titans let Corey Davis walk which was a horrible move and they replaced him with a much older Julio Jones.

 

Last season stats:

Davis 14 GMS, 65 catches, 15.1 avg per catch - same deep threat, 5 TD's

Jones 9 GMS, 51 catches, 15.1 avg per catch - same deep threat, 3 TD's

 

-Julio played in 5 less games but stat wise both averaged 15.1 a catch and had Jones played in 14 games he would've had roughly about the same amount of catches, yards, and TD's that Davis had more than likely. It would be close, Jones may have had a few more catches in 14 GMS but it would be close. The Titans really didn't improve, they just filled a serious need so it was a 'good move'. Now if this had been Jones from 3 or 4 years ago than I would agree with the "great move part". Jones wasn't any better than Davis was last year and he was injured and I am surprised none of you stat guys have brought this up?? 

 

Why not just re-sign Davis who is only 26 years old instead of bringing in a guy that will be 33 years old after the season and will probably give you the same production that Davis would but only for a year or 2. Keyshawn Johnson brought up this exact same point on ESPN, he thinks they should've just re-signed Davis who has at least 5 more good-great years left.

Raw counting stats don't tell the full story. For example, it doesn't tell how each of them was used. It doesn't tell that one was a no. 1 option and the other one was no. 2 option. It doesn't tell how each of them was winning and how sustainable it is. It doesn't tell you that one has been doing that or better for 10 years and the other one just had his best year of his career for those stats. And this is not to diminish Corey Davis - I personally was the biggest proponent for the Colts going for him in FA on this forum. I thought he had a great breakout season. I just think Julio is in another tier altogether. I hope you are right and he's on the downside of his career rather than us getting another late career Randy Moss with a conference(in this case division) rival, because if he is what I think he is, we will be in a world of hurt. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

14 minutes ago, stitches said:

Raw counting stats don't tell the full story. For example, it doesn't tell how each of them was used. It doesn't tell that one was a no. 1 option and the other one was no. 2 option. It doesn't tell how each of them was winning and how sustainable it is. And this is not to diminish Corey Davis - I personally was the biggest proponent for the Colts going for him in FA on this forum. I thought he had a great breakout season. I just think Julio is in another tier altogether. I hope you are right and his on the downside of his career rather than us getting another late career Randy Moss with a conference(in this case division) rival, because if he is what I think he is, we will be in a world of hurt. 

I am just not ready to say this was "a great move" for the Titans because they just lost a very good WR who was also a deep threat for them. A move of serious need no doubt and a good move, I will buy that. Of course all-time Julio is on another tier than Davis but I am talking now. That is like with Wentz, I have many in here telling me that he will be great. I am not buying that yet either and I love the Colts, I can see good but Rivers was good was last year. Moss IMO is a top 3 WR of all-time, I have Rice and Marvin as my other 2, I bring that up because Moss is arguably the GOAT, Julio isn't, JMO. Moss was also still in his prime/tail end of his prime (30 years old) when he went to the Pats and had Tom Brady throwing him the ball. Julio isn't old but 32 is really cutting it close for most WR's.

[stitches]

14 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am just not ready to say this was "a great move" for the Titans because they just lost a very good WR who was also a deep threat for them. A move of serious need no doubt and a good move, I will buy that. Of course all-time Julio is on another tier than Davis but I am talking now. That is like with Wentz, I have many in here telling me that he will be great. I am not buying that yet either and I love the Colts, I can see good but Rivers was good was last year. Moss IMO is a top 3 WR of all-time, I have Rice and Marvin as my other 2, I bring that up because Moss is arguably the GOAT, Julio isn't, JMO. Moss was also still in his prime/tail end of his prime (30 years old) when he went to the Pats and had Tom Brady throwing him the ball. Julio isn't old but 32 is really cutting it close for most WR's.

 

The problem is... Julio has never been anything short of spectacular. Even last year if you actually watch him play, he was as good as he's ever been. When I watch him I don't see any drop in shape, he still is fast as hell, he still gets open, his routes and hands are still great. His only limitations are his injuries. With Wentz there is a legitimate reason to worry because he was very clearly horrible last year and without having any injury at the time. In other words - I don't see any reason to think Julio won't be great as long as he's healthy and on the field. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

The problem is... Julio has never been anything short of spectacular. Even last year if you actually watch him play, he was as good as he's ever been. When I watch him I don't see any drop in shape, he still is fast as hell, he still gets open, his routes and hands are still great. His only limitations are his injuries. With Wentz there is a legitimate reason to worry because he was very clearly horrible last year and without having any injury at the time. In other words - I don't see any reason to think Julio won't be great as long as he's healthy and on the field. 

A lot of it too is who is throwing him the ball. Moss had Brady in 2007. I know you brought up a stat that has Tannehill as a great deep ball thrower (great stat by the way - great job on your part) but for my money Matt Ryan has always been better than Tannehill so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

15 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Not at all. Bill  values corners and mix and matches his Dline. He brings pressure from every where. Ballard does not value corners and I think that is his greatest down fall. Neither is really good at drafting skill players.

Ballard has drafted a CB high more than once and signed Rhodes in FA twice. He values corners.

 

And yes, Ballard has built this team similarly to how BB built the Pats in the early 2000s. Build the lines. Wilfork. Buckner. Light. Nelson. There are numerous parallels.

 

But like I said, the biggest difference is BB having the luxury of Tom Brady.  That gave BB a LOT of leeway and pull in team-building over the years.

[NewColtsFan]

17 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Not at all. Bill  values corners and mix and matches his Dline. He brings pressure from every where. Ballard does not value corners and I think that is his greatest down fall. Neither is really good at drafting skill players.

Let’s pause and count the number of ways this post is wrong or poorly thought through…

 

You're comparing Ballard, who is now in hIs 5th season as GM, with Belichick, who is recognized as the best coach of all-time and a very good, but not great GM.  Belichick also happens to be on his 25th (or so) season at the top.    So you’re comparing 25 seasons to 5.    That’s not good. 
 

You claim Ballard is not good with playmakers.  (In his 5 years).    Let’s start with the RB room which was just called one of the top-5 groups in all of football.   Taylor, Mack, Hines, and Wilkins are ALL Ballard draft picks. 
 

Michael Pittman was just taken 34th a year ago, (Taylor was taken 41st). Both were recently called top-25 players in the 2020 draft.   Ballard has now multiple times this off-season said Pittman will be a “great” player for the Colts.   I can’t even remember the last time Ballard has done that.  I’ll take Ballard’s view over yours.  And if Campbell can just stay healthy, you’re likely going to be eating your words again. 
 

As to corners, we won’t know about Rock until the end of this season.  But in the 2nd half of 2019, he graded out as the top rookie cornerback in the entire NFL.   So despite a disappointing 2020, the jury is not back with a verdict yet.  
 

Sorry, but your shoot first and aim second approach to posting has you in a corner again.   You still haven’t even answered my post about Belichick, Hightower, Mankins and Jones.   And I’ve made that post TWICE over the past month or so.   And you’ve now ignored it TWICE.  
 

We will know more about Ballard in the next year or two.   But the media who covers him already thinks he’s pretty close to a top-2/3 GM when it comes to drafting.   Top-5/8 overall.   So your view, which you’re entitled to, is in the extreme minority. 

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Let’s pause and count the number of ways this post is wrong or poorly thought through…

 

You're comparing Ballard, who is now in hIs 5th season as GM, with Belichick, who is recognized as the best coach of all-time and a very good, but not great GM.  Belichick also happens to be on his 25th (or so) season at the top.    So you’re comparing 25 seasons to 5.    That’s not good. 
 

You claim Ballard is not good with playmakers.  (In his 5 years).    Let’s start with the RB room which was just called one of the top-5 groups in all of football.   Taylor, Mack, Hines, and Wilkins are ALL Ballard draft picks. 
 

Michael Pittman was just taken 34th a year ago, (Taylor was taken 41st). Both were recently called top-25 players in the 2020 draft.   Ballard has now multiple times this off-season said Pittman will be a “great” player for the Colts.   I can’t even remember the last time Ballard has done that.  I’ll take Ballard’s view over yours.  And if Campbell can just stay healthy, you’re likely going to be eating your words again. 
 

As to corners, we won’t know about Rock until the end of this season.  But in the 2nd half of 2019, he graded out as the top rookie cornerback in the entire NFL.   So despite a disappointing 2020, the jury is not back with a verdict yet.  
 

Sorry, but your shoot first and aim second approach to posting has you in a corner again.   You still haven’t even answered my post about Belichick, Hightower, Mankins and Jones.   And I’ve made that post TWICE over the past month or so.   And you’ve now ignored it TWICE.  
 

We will know more about Ballard in the next year or two.   But the media who covers him already thinks he’s pretty close to a top-2/3 GM when it comes to drafting.   Top-5/8 overall.   So your view, which you’re entitled to, is in the extreme minority. 

I think the 24 hour news cycle is to blame for some of these people.    So many want to have a hot take.  Most folks on TV are rarely called out for their "hot take"   They aren't really forced to commit to it long term.    The problem for Moosejawcolt  and others here,    they feel they have to perpetually stand by mind boggling bad takes for years.   First it was Leonard and Nelson were average.   Then it's moved to,  well they are good,  but aren't worth what it's going to cost to keep them.    The goal posts move to help fit the narrative.    Imagine back in the 80s of someone would have said John Hannah wasn't worthy of being the highest paid guard?  Or the 90s saying Larry Allen was overrated because he doesn't play a skill position.     It's nonsense

[NewColtsFan]

48 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I think the 24 hour news cycle is to blame for some of these people.    So many want to have a hot take.  Most folks on TV are rarely called out for their "hot take"   They aren't really forced to commit to it long term.    The problem for Moosejawcolt  and others here,    they feel they have to perpetually stand by mind boggling bad takes for years.   First it was Leonard and Nelson were average.   Then it's moved to,  well they are good,  but aren't worth what it's going to cost to keep them.    The goal posts move to help fit the narrative.    Imagine back in the 80s of someone would have said John Hannah wasn't worthy of being the highest paid guard?  Or the 90s saying Larry Allen was overrated because he doesn't play a skill position.     It's nonsense

Really, really good post by you,  JV!

 

Sorry I can’t give it 100 likes!      

 

 

[CurBeatElite]

23 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I don't have Brees have in my top 5 and most don't on ESPN or the NFL Network. My top 5 are:

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Peyton

4. Unitas

5. Elway

-and by the way I think Rodgers is better than Brees all-time as well. Not only do I value stats but I also value League MVP's and the ability of a QB being able to lead his team to Championships. Rodgers has 3 League MVP's and Brees never won one. Brees was never considered the best QB of any year in his era as well. It was either Brady, Peyton, or Rodgers - then Mahomes in the latter years. This isn't a put down Brees session because I do have him top 10 but not top 5. Most have Brees around 10th if you google a lot of lists done by other football minds. 

 

Brees has been a Superbowl MVP, a 7x NFL passing yards leader, 4x passing TD leader, 2x passer rating leader, 6x completion percentage leader, 2x offensive player of the year, 13x pro-bowl, 5x all-pro.

 

Rodgers has led the league in percentage 1x, 2x in TDs, 3x passer rating (above Brees), 4x all-pro, 9x pro-bowler.  He has never lead the league in yardage.  He's tied with Brees in SB MVPs (1).  Yet, some how he has been a 3x MVP.  

 

Brees has better stats than Rodgers everywhere but league-MVP.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall Brees having any public turmoil with his team/ownership.  It seems like Rodgers is becoming almost worse than Favre now, every year there is some drama involving him and his contract or being upset that the team drafted a QB high or not having enough support.  Rodgers is a very solid QB, but he's also doing podcasts, commercials, Jeopardy, etc... Brees is going home and being a great dad after work and aside from MVPs (which are voted on by fans and media), has better numbers than Rodgers and has been one of the best, if not the best QB in the league on numerous occassions.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

33 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Brees has been a Superbowl MVP, a 7x NFL passing yards leader, 4x passing TD leader, 2x passer rating leader, 6x completion percentage leader, 2x offensive player of the year, 13x pro-bowl, 5x all-pro.

 

Rodgers has led the league in percentage 1x, 2x in TDs, 3x passer rating (above Brees), 4x all-pro, 9x pro-bowler.  He has never lead the league in yardage.  He's tied with Brees in SB MVPs (1).  Yet, some how he has been a 3x MVP.  

 

Brees has better stats than Rodgers everywhere but league-MVP.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall Brees having any public turmoil with his team/ownership.  It seems like Rodgers is becoming almost worse than Favre now, every year there is some drama involving him and his contract or being upset that the team drafted a QB high or not having enough support.  Rodgers is a very solid QB, but he's also doing podcasts, commercials, Jeopardy, etc... Brees is going home and being a great dad after work and aside from MVPs (which are voted on by fans and media), has better numbers than Rodgers and has been one of the best, if not the best QB in the league on numerous occassions.

 

 

I never said I liked Rodgers as a person and IMO from what I have seen and read, Brees is a better person and a great dad. I just don't have him top 5 as far as all-time QB's. I have him around 7th or 8th, probably right behind Rodgers. That isn't an insult, it is actually a compliment saying a QB is 7th or so all-time when there have been thousands play the position. Those League MVP's are glaring, you ask any QB what the 2nd most important thing is to win and they will tell you League MVP, SB is obviously #1. When you win League MVP, the media, coaches, etc. consider that player the most important player to his team in a particular year.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 6/9/2021 at 1:45 PM, NewColtsFan said:

Let’s pause and count the number of ways this post is wrong or poorly thought through…

 

You're comparing Ballard, who is now in hIs 5th season as GM, with Belichick, who is recognized as the best coach of all-time and a very good, but not great GM.  Belichick also happens to be on his 25th (or so) season at the top.    So you’re comparing 25 seasons to 5.    That’s not good. 
 

You claim Ballard is not good with playmakers.  (In his 5 years).    Let’s start with the RB room which was just called one of the top-5 groups in all of football.   Taylor, Mack, Hines, and Wilkins are ALL Ballard draft picks. 
 

Michael Pittman was just taken 34th a year ago, (Taylor was taken 41st). Both were recently called top-25 players in the 2020 draft.   Ballard has now multiple times this off-season said Pittman will be a “great” player for the Colts.   I can’t even remember the last time Ballard has done that.  I’ll take Ballard’s view over yours.  And if Campbell can just stay healthy, you’re likely going to be eating your words again. 
 

As to corners, we won’t know about Rock until the end of this season.  But in the 2nd half of 2019, he graded out as the top rookie cornerback in the entire NFL.   So despite a disappointing 2020, the jury is not back with a verdict yet.  
 

Sorry, but your shoot first and aim second approach to posting has you in a corner again.   You still haven’t even answered my post about Belichick, Hightower, Mankins and Jones.   And I’ve made that post TWICE over the past month or so.   And you’ve now ignored it TWICE.  
 

We will know more about Ballard in the next year or two.   But the media who covers him already thinks he’s pretty close to a top-2/3 GM when it comes to drafting.   Top-5/8 overall.   So your view, which you’re entitled to, is in the extreme minority. 

Wow that was to long for me. I got to thr 2ns sentence and stopped. Actually, I am to busy lately on kijii looking to buy my 1st motor bike. Honestly, a little bored with the forum. Going to exit for awhile. Take my written test and course test. Wish me luck. Later. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

7 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Wow that was to long for me. I got to thr 2ns sentence and stopped. Actually, I am to busy lately on kijii looking to buy my 1st motor bike. Honestly, a little bored with the forum. Going to exit for awhile. Take my written test and course test. Wish me luck. Later. 

This is the lamest attempt at saving face that I’ve seen in a while.

 

Thank you for the laugh.

 

“Honestly a little bored with the forum, I’m gonna go motorcycle”  

[CurBeatElite]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:42 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I never said I liked Rodgers as a person and IMO from what I have seen and read, Brees is a better person and a great dad. I just don't have him top 5 as far as all-time QB's. I have him around 7th or 8th, probably right behind Rodgers. That isn't an insult, it is actually a compliment saying a QB is 7th or so all-time when there have been thousands play the position. Those League MVP's are glaring, you ask any QB what the 2nd most important thing is to win and they will tell you League MVP, SB is obviously #1. When you win League MVP, the media, coaches, etc. consider that player the most important player to his team in a particular year.

 

Yea, except league MVPs are voted in.  Say what you want, there is no denying that there is bias in there.

 

Look at the stats.. Brees is the most accurate QB in NFL history (behind DeShaun Watson who has a small sample size) and very arguably the most efficient passer in NFL history.  His numbers (career and on a season to season basis) are generally better than Rodgers.  

 

Look at it from a Colts' fan perspective at a different position.  Marvin didn't quite have the longevity of Jerry Rice, but he had the most productive run of the first 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 years in NFL history (Sterling Sharpe was cut short and had slightly better first 4-5 years in NFL history).  Marvin (like Brees) rarely talked with the media... he did his job.  After his career, several (Champ Bailey, Shawn Springs, Peanut Tillman to name a few) DBs said Marv was the hardest WR they ever had to face (better than Randy Moss, better than Keyshawn Johnson who was the #1 pick in Marv's draft class, better than anyone).  Unless you were a Colts' fan and you watched how great Marv was, most people would think you are crazy by saying that you believed he was the best WR of his era -- why?  Because Marv was a production machine who made highlight reel plays look so consistent that they went unnoticed, and he didn't go out of the way to attract media/social media attention.  The guys he played against all recognized it, but if you were a common fan and just watched the cr@p they play on ESPN highlights, you'd think "Give me the damn ball" Keyshawn was the star of the 1996 draft class, or that Randy Moss was so great because he ran over a cross-walk cop... you wouldn't really know that Marvin was the most productive WR for most of that era because he handed the ball to the ref after he scored a TD (he didn't moon the audience like Moss, or stand on the opposing teams' logo like TO, etc.), he took a shower and snuck out the back door after games rather than cry to the media or go get arrested after games or mid-week during the season (not talking about his post-career allegations)..

 

I think most players who played against Brees and Rodgers would say the only area where Rodgers has Brees beat as a player/QB is that he has a stronger arm and can chuck the ball further and faster.  Otherwise, I think most would undoubtedly say Brees is more accurate, Brees is more consistent, harder to defend against because he reads the field better, and he has the same amount of SB rings with more SB appearances...

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Yea, except league MVPs are voted in.  Say what you want, there is no denying that there is bias in there.

 

Look at the stats.. Brees is the most accurate QB in NFL history (behind DeShaun Watson who has a small sample size) and very arguably the most efficient passer in NFL history.  His numbers (career and on a season to season basis) are generally better than Rodgers.  

 

Look at it from a Colts' fan perspective at a different position.  Marvin didn't quite have the longevity of Jerry Rice, but he had the most productive run of the first 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 years in NFL history (Sterling Sharpe was cut short and had slightly better first 4-5 years in NFL history).  Marvin (like Brees) rarely talked with the media... he did his job.  After his career, several (Champ Bailey, Shawn Springs, Peanut Tillman to name a few) DBs said Marv was the hardest WR they ever had to face (better than Randy Moss, better than Keyshawn Johnson who was the #1 pick in Marv's draft class, better than anyone).  Unless you were a Colts' fan and you watched how great Marv was, most people would think you are crazy by saying that you believed he was the best WR of his era -- why?  Because Marv was a production machine who made highlight reel plays look so consistent that they went unnoticed, and he didn't go out of the way to attract media/social media attention.  The guys he played against all recognized it, but if you were a common fan and just watched the cr@p they play on ESPN highlights, you'd think "Give me the damn ball" Keyshawn was the star of the 1996 draft class, or that Randy Moss was so great because he ran over a cross-walk cop... you wouldn't really know that Marvin was the most productive WR for most of that era because he handed the ball to the ref after he scored a TD (he didn't moon the audience like Moss, or stand on the opposing teams' logo like TO, etc.), he took a shower and snuck out the back door after games rather than cry to the media or go get arrested after games or mid-week during the season (not talking about his post-career allegations)..

 

I think most players who played against Brees and Rodgers would say the only area where Rodgers has Brees beat as a player/QB is that he has a stronger arm and can chuck the ball further and faster.  Otherwise, I think most would undoubtedly say Brees is more accurate, Brees is more consistent, harder to defend against because he reads the field better, and he has the same amount of SB rings with more SB appearances...

Rodgers also moves better out of the pocket than Brees, his awareness and foot movement are almost flawless. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I would take either QB if I was starting a franchise, I just think Rodgers is a tad better. Regarding WR's, FWIW I have Marvin the 2nd best WR of all-time and Moss is 3rd. Rice of course is my #1.

[EastStreet]

17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Rodgers also moves better out of the pocket than Brees, his awareness and foot movement are almost flawless. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I would take either QB if I was starting a franchise, I just think Rodgers is a tad better. Regarding WR's, FWIW I have Marvin the 2nd best WR of all-time and Moss is 3rd. Rice of course is my #1.

Both are great, but if we're talking accuracy and efficiency, give me Brees. Rodgers played out of his mind last year, but the prior two years had a 50s QBR. Brees has never had a sub 60s QBR.

[2006Coltsbestever]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Both are great, but if we're talking accuracy and efficiency, give me Brees. Rodgers played out of his mind last year, but the prior two years had a 50s QBR. Brees has never had a sub 60s QBR.

Accuracy and Efficiency Brees was better, no argument here. Rodgers is still great in both categories though and a little more mobile - his awareness in the pocket is almost flawless. Rodgers and Brees both played in 1 SB in which they won but Rodgers has lead his team to the NFC Title Game 5 times, Brees 3 times and Rodgers has 3 league MVP's, Brees has none. People can call MVP voting bias or what ever they want but to poo poo an MVP award is a major stretch to prove a point. Why would a voter give an MVP award to Rodgers over Brees if it is close which it was a couple of times out of being bias? That makes no sense considering Brees is the nicer guy and does a ton for his community, you would think it would be the other way around because Rodgers comes off arrogant at times.

[JackOLantin]

But No1 to us! No way any one brings to the table for us what Darious dose!

 

Mad Respect No53!