Darius Leonard ranked 6th best Linebacker

[2006Coltsbestever]

38 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

This is my general stance. Their process may not be perfect but at least they have a process and they apply it to every snap of every game. I barely get to watch football outside of Colts games so they're an invaluable resource for me in terms of fleshing out my opinions about the rest of the league. I can't watch every snap of every game so it's fantastic to have a resource available that does.

 

 

I'm glad you replied too. There's nothing wrong with two (or more) people disagreeing. It's been a perfectly civil discussion and I appreciate your contributions to it.

 

I don't think we even disagree that much. We seem to agree that players should be graded differently based on their contributions to a play rather than the outcome of that play. I think we mostly just disagree about how effectively PFF are able to judge the contributions that different players make. Nothing wrong with that

Yeah from reading the posts we really don't disagree much, I like having civil discussions in here because sometimes discussions can get out of hand. When it comes to stats I don't even want to try to keep up with @EastStreetlol, he is the king when it comes to every stat imaginable. I have watched the game for nearly 45 years though so I do know stats and have pretty good knowledge of the game, the feel for it. I love to rank all-time players because I do know a lot about the history of the game.

 

"Stink" may have been to harsh of a word towards PFF, saying I don't agree with them a lot would've been better 

[DownHillRunner]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Agreed. I always watch our games with the intent of having fun. But I do go back and re-watch games, rewinding, etc. to look closer. Not all games, but a decent amount. And yes, PFF is far from perfect. but they are a better than the majority of "eye-test" fans.

 

I get the stats, but none of those guys are worth more to their defense than Darius. Our defense just plays at a whole another level when he's on the field. You can't say Kendricks, Davis, or David is the best defensive player on their teams. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

I get the stats, but none of those guys are worth more to their defense than Darius. Our defense just plays at a whole another level when he's on the field. You can't say Kendricks, Davis, or David is the best defensive player on their teams. 

Stats are obviously real important because we can measure players to a point using them but they are not the tell all. Take Drew Brees for example:

80,358 Yards = 1st all-time

571 TD's = 2nd all-time

98.7 QB Passer Rating = 5th all-time

67.7 Completion % = 2nd all-time

280 Yards per game = 1st all-time 

 

 

-By every key statistical measure he should be hands down considered a Top 5 QB of all-time right? I have never heard 1 person on ESPN, NFL Channel, Fox, CBS, or in here say he is that. I don't think he is either but the major stats say he is. I do have him top 10 which is far from an insult but Brees is a perfect example to why eye test, clutchness of a player, and how many League MVP's have they won, and how many Championships they have won is important to factor in. It was a different time but Joe Montana didn't have near the stats that Brees has but everyone on planet earth that I know of has Montana ranked higher all-time. I think Montana was better as well, 4-0 in SB's, 0 INT's in all those SB's, and he won more League MVP's. Brees is better than Peyton than all the stats I listed above, is he better than Peyton, no and most people know he isn't. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

I get the stats, but none of those guys are worth more to their defense than Darius. Our defense just plays at a whole another level when he's on the field. You can't say Kendricks, Davis, or David is the best defensive player on their teams. 

I gave you a LIKE and agree for the most part. I do think Leonard is the 2nd best player on our D because I have Buckner #1 but you are basically right in what you are saying. #1 or #2 = damn close. Leonard is real important to our team, obviously.

[tvturner]

He's not great in coverage, this isn't a surprise 

[Nickster]

32 minutes ago, tvturner said:

He's not great in coverage, this isn't a surprise 

That’s a nice way of saying it.

[NewColtsFan]

19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Let's start with Leonard's stats. And keep in mind Leonard plays WILL in a 4-3, but mostly a 4-2 (we're in nickel mostly), so most would say he naturally gets more opportunity for Ts. At minimum, different positions so should be looked at in that context.

 

I've bolded blue for best (out of the 4 in question)

 

• Leonard - 14 games
  • Tackles: 9.4 pg
  • INTs: 0
  • Passer Rating Allowed: 109.2
  • Completion % allowed: 81.4% (12th worst in the league in all positions)
  • TDs given up 3 (0.21 pg)
  • Sacks: 3 (0.21 pg)
  • TFL's: 7 (0.5 pg)
  • Forced Fumbles: 3 (0.21 pg)
  • Missed T%: 5%
  • Note: Very solid vs the run, but one could say plain bad vs the pass. His completions % allowed was 12 highest in the league (all positions). 
• Eric Kendricks (plays MIKE in a 4-3) 11 games
  • Tackles: 9.7 pg
  • INTs: 0
  • Passer Rating Allowed: 58.8 (top 10 all positions)
  • Completion % allowed: 70.7
  • TDs given up: 0
  • Sacks: 0
  • TFL's: 4 (0.36 pg)
  • Forced Fumbles: 0
  • Missed T%: 7%
  • Note: You can't argue with Kendricks at all IMO. Highest Ts per game of the 4 we're comparing, and also top 10 in pass D in the NFL of all positions including DBs. 
• Lavonte David (plays RIL in a 3-4) 16 games
  • Tackles: 7.3 pg
  • INTs: 1 (0.06 pg)
  • Passer Rating Allowed: 93.4
  • Completion % allowed: 75%
  • TDs given up: 4 (0.25 pg)
  • Sacks: 1.5 (0.09 pg)
  • TFL's: 12 (0.75 pg)
  • Forced Fumbles: 3 (0.19 pg)
  • Missed T%: 7.915%
  • Note: Great combined TFL/sack stats per game, and better pass D stats than Leonard.
• Demario Davis (plays WILL in a 4-3) 16 games
  • Tackles: 7.4
  • INTs: 0
  • Passer Rating Allowed: 106.3
  • Completion % allowed: 70.4%
  • TDs given up: 4 (0.25 pg)
  • Sacks: 4 (0.25 pg)
  • TFL's: 10 (0.63 pg)
  • Forced Fumbles: 0
  • Missed T%: 7% 
  • Note: Has the highest combined # of sacks and TFLs per game last year. Also the lowest missed T% over the last 2 years. Down year for him, so perhaps he's getting a nod for 2019 as well. Even in a down year, his pass D was still a bit better than Leonards.

Conclusion - Sure there could be debate, but doesn't appear that PFF is smoking anything after looking at the stats for context.

Just out of curiosity...

 

What were Leonard’s stats his first two seasons?    I’m trying to gage how much fall off there was in his Y3 vs his first two seasons?

 

Thanks in advance.... 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I just read an article about Darius Leonard and per NFL.com he ranks in the top 10 regarding pass coverage regardless of position. Yes top 10 in the league. This is based on the percentage of tight-window throws that are completed his way, the rate at which they're targeted and the average yards of separation that the offensive player gets from them. NFL.com says "A couple of metrics referred to as the ballhawk rate and the coverage-success rate are also considered as supplemental measures". I just read an article over at CBS.com as well, and they say Leonard is dominant in pass coverage, their words not mine. Out of the games I have seen he is good at worse, so I am not sure where all of this stuff about Leonard being average to bad at times in pass coverage comes from. That is 2 sports websites with great sports reputations that say otherwise. The way he commands the field and makes tackles just speaks for itself so I won't even go into that. That is on the great level. These articles are from 2020, last season.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 hours ago, tvturner said:

He's not great in coverage, this isn't a surprise 

According to NFL.com and CBS.com he is great in pass coverage. Look it up if you don't believe me. I think the NFL Network knows almost more than any other pro football sports site there is. 

[EastStreet]

7 hours ago, DownHillRunner said:

 

I get the stats, but none of those guys are worth more to their defense than Darius. Our defense just plays at a whole another level when he's on the field. You can't say Kendricks, Davis, or David is the best defensive player on their teams. 

Reliance on a player doesn't mean better.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Just out of curiosity...

 

What were Leonard’s stats his first two seasons?    I’m trying to gage how much fall off there was in his Y3 vs his first two seasons?

 

Thanks in advance.... 

 

Here's his yearly stats (basic, and scroll a bit down for advanced).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeonDa00.htm

 

In short, he improved his pass D from 2018 to 2019, but regressed a lot in 2020. 

Still good vs the run.

 

I've said it a few times, I think our scheme tweaking with rip/liz has added responsibility or complexity, which may be impacting some DBs, and some if not all of the LBs.

[EastStreet]

20 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

According to NFL.com and CBS.com he is great in pass coverage. Look it up if you don't believe me. I think the NFL Network knows almost more than any other pro football sports site there is. 

Hey brother, if you're going to quote articles, it would be helpful if you linked them.

 

I'm open minded, but his passer rating allowed and completion % allowed last season was pretty bad. And those are very basic stats. I'd love to see how the articles explain those away.

[tvturner]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

According to NFL.com and CBS.com he is great in pass coverage. Look it up if you don't believe me. I think the NFL Network knows almost more than any other pro football sports site there is. 

He was terrible in coverage in 2020

 

He took a big step back from 2019

[Fluke_33]

11 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stats are obviously real important because we can measure players to a point using them but they are not the tell all. Take Drew Brees for example:

80,358 Yards = 1st all-time

571 TD's = 2nd all-time

98.7 QB Passer Rating = 5th all-time

67.7 Completion % = 2nd all-time

280 Yards per game = 1st all-time 

 

 

-By every key statistical measure he should be hands down considered a Top 5 QB of all-time right? I have never heard 1 person on ESPN, NFL Channel, Fox, CBS, or in here say he is that. I don't think he is either but the major stats say he is. I do have him top 10 which is far from an insult but Brees is a perfect example to why eye test, clutchness of a player, and how many League MVP's have they won, and how many Championships they have won is important to factor in. It was a different time but Joe Montana didn't have near the stats that Brees has but everyone on planet earth that I know of has Montana ranked higher all-time. I think Montana was better as well, 4-0 in SB's, 0 INT's in all those SB's, and he won more League MVP's. Brees is better than Peyton than all the stats I listed above, is he better than Peyton, no and most people know he isn't. 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

31 minutes ago, tvturner said:

He was terrible in coverage in 2020

 

He took a big step back from 2019

@EastStreetwanted me to post links to articles I have been reading, for some reason I am having trouble linking these articles. PFF doesn't even think he's "terrible", this discussion is getting goofy and people that say he is "terrible" in coverage makes me SMH. I just read another article which PFF was involved in the discussion per Yahoo.com that says Leonard is good in pass coverage. Sorry I haven't posted these links but all you have to do is Google Darius Leonard pass coverage and a whole page of articles comes up saying he is good to great from several different websites. Just because he took a step back in 2020 from 2019 in pass coverage doesn't mean he was terrible in 2020. He set the bar so high for himself in 2019 that now if he has a few bad games, people think he is terrible.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

30 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

 

Homer nails it as usual - this is what I think of this thread  

[EastStreet]

54 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

@EastStreetwanted me to post links to articles I have been reading, for some reason I am having trouble linking these articles. PFF doesn't even think he's "terrible", this discussion is getting goofy and people that say he is "terrible" in coverage makes me SMH. I just read another article which PFF was involved in the discussion per Yahoo.com that says Leonard is good in pass coverage. Sorry I haven't posted these links but all you have to do is Google Darius Leonard pass coverage and a whole page of articles comes up saying he is good to great from several different websites. Just because he took a step back in 2020 from 2019 in pass coverage doesn't mean he was terrible in 2020. He set the bar so high for himself in 2019 that now if he has a few bad games, people think he is terrible.  

 

I googled earlier. I saw articles talking about improvement in 2019, nothing saying how good he was in 21.

 

It's not goofy, passer rating and completion % allowed are very basic indicators. And he was near the worst in those stats. Like I said, I'd love to see alternative views with backing stats... I just don't see that out there.

[2006Coltsbestever]

24 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

I googled earlier. I saw articles talking about improvement in 2019, nothing saying how good he was in 21.

 

It's not goofy, passer rating and completion % allowed are very basic indicators. And he was near the worst in those stats. Like I said, I'd love to see alternative views with backing stats... I just don't see that out there.

If he was among the worst in pass coverage and regarding those 2 stats it is fair to say he had some bad games which hurt his stats, why would PFF still rank him 6th best LB? If a LB stinks in pass coverage or among the worst he shouldn't be in the top 10 then, agree? I mean how can you be terrible in pass coverage and be ranked 6th overall. That is why I think PFF does use eye test besides just their formula which is good. PFF or anyone else isn't going to put Leonard in the top 5/6 just based on tackles and other things if they stink in pass coverage. That would not make sense. 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If he was among the worst in pass coverage and regarding those 2 stats it is fair to say he had some bad games which hurt his stats, why would PFF still rank him 6th best LB? If a LB stinks in pass coverage or among the worst he shouldn't be in the top 10 then, agree? I mean how can you be terrible in pass coverage and be ranked 6th overall. That is why I think PFF does use eye test besides just their formula which is good. PFF or anyone else isn't going to put Leonard in the top 5/6 just based on tackles and other things if they stink in pass coverage. That would not make sense. 

The ranks posted are 2021 predictions entering the season, not ranking how they did in 2020.

 

Leonard got a grade of 72ish.... That's not great. For instance, the top 3 LBs ranged from 83 to 89, 10+ points more. His 2020 grade was down 6 points from 2019, and almost 10 points from 2018.

 

And we know his run stats are great/elite, so logic would say his pass D is what is dragging him down.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Homer nails it as usual - this is what I think of this thread  

I had to break the old beer on this one  . I am in the middle of Indianapolis and the race is going on but I am at home, time to drink a lot of beer and the Cubs come on at 2. They have won 6 in a row.

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

The ranks posted are 2021 predictions entering the season, not ranking how they did in 2020.

 

Leonard got a grade of 72ish.... That's not great. For instance, the top 3 LBs ranged from 83 to 89, 10+ points more. His 2020 grade was down 6 points from 2019, and almost 10 points from 2018.

 

And we know his run stats are great/elite, so logic would say his pass D is what is dragging him down.

 

Pass d last season.   Prior to last season he was regarded very good in coverage

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

The ranks posted are 2021 predictions entering the season, not ranking how they did in 2020.

 

Leonard got a grade of 72ish.... That's not great. For instance, the top 3 LBs ranged from 83 to 89, 10+ points more. His 2020 grade was down 6 points from 2019, and almost 10 points from 2018.

 

And we know his run stats are great/elite, so logic would say his pass D is what is dragging him down.

 

Here is an important question, do you think he will continue to get worse in pass coverage in 2021 or get back to 2019 form. See I believe the latter. A lot of great players that have played a lot of seasons may have an off year in a certain area. I think Leonard will be great overall in 2021, JMO. I remember in 2005 when Peyton actually had an off year statistically for him after his outstanding 2004 season but I never thought he wasn't going to be great the rest of his career. Then we won the SB in 2006.

[Nickster]

26 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If he was among the worst in pass coverage and regarding those 2 stats it is fair to say he had some bad games which hurt his stats, why would PFF still rank him 6th best LB? If a LB stinks in pass coverage or among the worst he shouldn't be in the top 10 then, agree? I mean how can you be terrible in pass coverage and be ranked 6th overall. That is why I think PFF does use eye test besides just their formula which is good. PFF or anyone else isn't going to put Leonard in the top 5/6 just based on tackles and other things if they stink in pass coverage. That would not make sense. 

You are looking at his review from 2019 when he had a seemingly anamolous 5 Ints.

 

not saying ints aren’t important but they skew his pass defending numbers.  If you looked at his stats without 5 InTs in 2019, he’d be similar to what is pretty well known league wide.  Leonard is not good in coverage.  Now yes I know that you don’t take them away, but he had none last year and 2 in 2018., small sample size sure, but 5 INTs seem to be the exception.

[jvan1973]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

You are looking at his review from 2019 when he had a seemingly anamolous 5 Ints.

 

not saying ints aren’t important but they skew his pass defending numbers.  If you looked at his stats without 5 InTs in 2019, he’d be similar to what is pretty well known league wide.  Leonard is not good in coverage.  Now yes I know that you don’t take them away, but he had none last year and 2 in 2018., small sample size sure, but 5 INTs seem to be the exception.

That's inaccurate. 

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/5/29/21274639/colts-all-pro-linebacker-darius-leonard-is-listed-among-the-nfls-top-10-best-in-coverage

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

14 minutes ago, Nickster said:

You are looking at his review from 2019 when he had a seemingly anamolous 5 Ints.

 

not saying ints aren’t important but they skew his pass defending numbers.  If you looked at his stats without 5 InTs in 2019, he’d be similar to what is pretty well known league wide.  Leonard is not good in coverage.  Now yes I know that you don’t take them away, but he had none last year and 2 in 2018., small sample size sure, but 5 INTs seem to be the exception.

Like with anything though, someone can say you just take these 2 or 3 games away from a certain player, he isn't as great as you think. I could also say the same thing in reverse, using JT as an example. I could say take away the 3 or 4 bad games JT had in the 1st half of the season then he is clearly one of the best RB's in the league. I guess there is something to what you are saying because a player might only have 6 great games and 10 stinkers and his stats will still look good but the same works the other way like I just posted. Every game just simply counts. Take away Peyton's opening night vs Baltimore in 2013 where he threw for 7 TD's he doesn't have 50 TD's (he had 55 actually) that season but it all counts. 

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

That's inaccurate. 

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/5/29/21274639/colts-all-pro-linebacker-darius-leonard-is-listed-among-the-nfls-top-10-best-in-coverage

 

If you read that article you will see them referencing his 2019 pick 6 v Winston.  Your article is a year old. May of 2020 and is referencing his 5 int 2019 season.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

That's inaccurate. 

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/5/29/21274639/colts-all-pro-linebacker-darius-leonard-is-listed-among-the-nfls-top-10-best-in-coverage

 

I was trying to post that link earlier and had no luck, thanks again Jvan. I couldn't post any link earlier 

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Like with anything though, someone can say you just take these 2 or 3 games away from a certain player, he isn't as great as you think. I could also say the same thing in reverse, using JT as an example. I could say take away the 3 or 4 bad games JT had in the 1st half of the season then he is clearly one of the best RB's in the league. I guess there is something to what you are saying because a player might only 6 great games and 10 stinkers and his stats will still look good but the same works the other way like I just posted. Every game just simply counts. Take away Peyton's opening night vs Baltimore in 2013 where he threw for 7 TD's he doesn't have 50 TD's (he had 55 actually) that season but it all counts. 

I understand your position on looking at all games, but by that method you will find he had no ints this year and was not that close to average in coverage this season.

 

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, Nickster said:

If you read that article you will see them referencing his 2019 pick 6 v Winston.  Your article is a year old. May of 2020 and is referencing his 5 int 2019 season.

It mentioned far more than the 5 ints.

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Here is an important question, do you think he will continue to get worse in pass coverage in 2021 or get back to 2019 form. See I believe the latter. A lot of great players that have played a lot of seasons may have an off year in a certain area. I think Leonard will be great overall in 2021, JMO. I remember in 2005 when Peyton actually had an off year statistically for him after his outstanding 2004 season but I never thought he wasn't going to be great the rest of his career. Then we won the SB in 2006.

I don't honestly know what to expect. He was bad in coverage last year. He was good in 2019. IMO, he's never been elite in coverage. He had one good year of INTs, and improved his completion % allowed. Then looked worse in 2020 than he did in both the previous two years. Like I've said several times in different threads, I think scheme tweaks might have something to do with both his and Oke's regression. 

 

At the end of the day, he's great vs the run, and up and down vs the pass. A third year regression is strange, so hard to tell. And with the flux on the DL this year, that could impact him either way, but gonna say it's a negative impact early. There's just not much I can point too besides blind fanboy faith that would tell me he's going to be great vs the pass in 2021. I hope he is.

[Nickster]

16 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

It mentioned far more than the 5 ints.

It is an article rating him after the 2019 season,  if you reed it you will see caveats.

 

the five int season makes it appear he’s better than reality.  He had 2 against Winston,  one great fake blitz drop and another that is just a Winston throw.  Could have been picked by 3 guys.  One was  against fitzmagic as he’s getting hit and missed his receiver.  Another was when he was trailing a Houston receiver by about 3 or 4 yds, and the the guy catches it while hitting the ground and it bounces right up to DL.

 

there is plenty of data showing DL is an average or below covering LB.

 

the 5 int 2019 makes it look as though he’s better than he is.  It’s no secret in the league that he has weaknesses in coverage.

[Nickster]

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I don't honestly know what to expect. He was bad in coverage last year. He was good in 2019. IMO, he's never been elite in coverage. He had one good year of INTs, and improved his completion % allowed. Then looked worse in 2020 than he did in both the previous two years. Like I've said several times in different threads, I think scheme tweaks might have something to do with both his and Oke's regression. 

 

At the end of the day, he's great vs the run, and up and down vs the pass. A third year regression is strange, so hard to tell. And with the flux on the DL this year, that could impact him either way, but gonna say it's a negative impact early. There's just not much I can point too besides blind fanboy faith that would tell me he's going to be great vs the pass in 2021. I hope he is.

The 2019 numbers are badly inflated because of the INTs.  Couple of good plays but also couple of lucky ones.  Probably not indicative of his efforts.  
 

this is where raw stats don’t tell the story.

 

I saw you talking about grading.  Grading varies greatly depending in who’s doing the grading and what info he has.  For instance, when a team grades its own player, it knows more info to determine whether a player did his job or not.  They know the call, the personnel etc, and it’s not uncommon for a team to make a failing grade on a play that we see as a positive.  For instance, a player could be way out of position and intercept a tipped ball.  The staff knows where he was supposed to be while the rest of us don’t.

 

grading is very difficult and very subjective. 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

The 2019 numbers are badly inflated because of the INTs.  Couple of good plays but also couple of lucky ones.  Probably not indicative of his efforts.  

 

this is where raw stats don’t tell the story.

It wasn't just INTs. His completion % allowed dropped a good chunk in 2019. 

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I saw you talking about grading.  Grading varies greatly depending in who’s doing the grading and what info he has.  For instance, when a team grades its own player, it knows more info to determine whether a player did his job or not.  They know the call, the personnel etc, and it’s not uncommon for a team to make a failing grade on a play that we see as a positive.  For instance, a player could be way out of position and intercept a tipped ball.  The staff knows where he was supposed to be while the rest of us don’t.

 

grading is very difficult and very subjective. 

Yet all players are subject to the same grading process limitations over a season or a 1000ish snaps.

[jvan1973]

15 minutes ago, Nickster said:

It is an article rating him after the 2019 season,  if you reed it you will see caveats.

 

the five int season makes it appear he’s better than reality.  He had 2 against Winston,  one great fake blitz drop and another that is just a Winston throw.  Could have been picked by 3 guys.  One was  against fitzmagic as he’s getting hit and missed his receiver.  Another was when he was trailing a Houston receiver by about 3 or 4 yds, and the the guy catches it while hitting the ground and it bounces right up to DL.

 

there is plenty of data showing DL is an average or below covering LB.

 

the 5 int 2019 makes it look as though he’s better than he is.  It’s no secret in the league that he has weaknesses in coverage.

His passer rating against was 58 for the 2019 season.    

[SteelCityColt]

I feel that pass coverage, looking at it from a purely state POV is going to be more impacted by scheme. If it's heavy on concepts of read/react, bend/don't break and rallying to ball you could see how passer rating allowed etc. could be quite high, but (you'd hope) to see a lot of tackles. 

 

Eyeball wise, he's not exactly bad in coverage but is going to get burned now and then when mismatched, but that's not an issue unique to him. 

[Nickster]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It wasn't just INTs. His completion % allowed dropped a good chunk in 2019. 

Yet all players are subject to the same grading process limitations over a season or a 1000ish snaps.

sure and Leonard has been average or below the entire time in coverage.  The passer rating plummets with the 5 Ints.  If you took those 5 plays away, you’d see similar numbers and it would be easy to see what DL is.  A playmaking Will who covers a lot of ground sideline to sideline in the running game and is pretty much a liability in coverage.

 

 

[SteelCityColt]

Just now, Nickster said:

sure and Leonard has been average or below the entire time in coverage.  The passer rating plummets with the 5 Ints.  If you took those 5 plays away, you’d see similar numbers and it would be easy to see what DL is.  A playmaking Will who covers a lot of ground sideline to sideline in the running game and is pretty much a liability in coverage.

 

I think that's going too far the other way. 

 

DA's question, does his 'liability' mean he shouldn't be starting? Because that's not the term you want applied to any starter. If not, then are we saying coverage isn't the most important factor to his position/role in our scheme and his other talents more than make up for it?

[Nickster]

Just now, SteelCityColt said:

 

I think that's going too far the other way. 

 

DA's question, does his 'liability' mean he shouldn't be starting? Because that's not the term you want applied to any starter. If not, then are we saying coverage isn't the most important factor to his position/role in our scheme and his other talents more than make up for it?

I don’t think Leonard is a great player yet.  He’s made some great great plays and is exciting and valuable and a great run defender.

 

in coverage he doesnt react like the best covering LBs.  I like him.  He’s obviously starter material but IMO strikingly overrated.

[Bravo]

1 minute ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I think that's going too far the other way. 

 

DA's question, does his 'liability' mean he shouldn't be starting? Because that's not the term you want applied to any starter. If not, then are we saying coverage isn't the most important factor to his position/role in our scheme and his other talents more than make up for it?

I think Walker was a “liability” in coverage. I think Leonard is just average. That’s why the Colts let him go. Walker was a heck of a running game LB. He had 124 tackles and 40 assist in 2019 and would have had 100 again if BO didn’t take most of his playing time.

 

Liability seems like a bit harsh for DL by the OG poster.

 

 

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, bravo4460 said:

I think Walker was a “liability” in coverage. I think Leonard is just average. That’s why the Colts let him go. Walker was a heck of a running game LB. He had 124 tackles and 40 assist in 2019 and would have had 100 again if BO didn’t take most of his playing time.

 

Liability seems like a bit harsh for DL by the OG poster.

 

 

 

 

This is where using certain terms one has to be careful. Saying someone is terrible when he is average happens  a lot in here. Saying someone is great when a player is really only good happens a lot in here too.