Darius Leonard ranked 6th best Linebacker

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

This is where using certain terms one has to be careful. Saying someone is terrible when he is average happens  a lot in here. Saying someone is great when a player is really only good happens a lot in here too.

Ok.  Darius Leonard is weak in coverage, especially when he isn’t playing what’s in front of him.  That’s what he is.  Elite in front average to weak behind.

[Nickster]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

I don't honestly know what to expect. He was bad in coverage last year. He was good in 2019. IMO, he's never been elite in coverage. He had one good year of INTs, and improved his completion % allowed. Then looked worse in 2020 than he did in both the previous two years. Like I've said several times in different threads, I think scheme tweaks might have something to do with both his and Oke's regression. 

 

At the end of the day, he's great vs the run, and up and down vs the pass. A third year regression is strange, so hard to tell. And with the flux on the DL this year, that could impact him either way, but gonna say it's a negative impact early. There's just not much I can point too besides blind fanboy faith that would tell me he's going to be great vs the pass in 2021. I hope he is.

This could be, but our safety play v the pass was weaker this year too which doesn’t help.

 

I've discussed with you before that Colts personnel moves are perplexing.  Leonard and Blackmon have the same strengths and weaknesses.  
 

I really think this team is wanting to play Tampa2 and let DL and Blackmon play fast downhill but lack the coverage MIke to do so.  
 

it makes less sense to me to see RYS rarely play a hard T2 corner when he seems perfecly suited to do so, and if they ever thought with his lack of speed that he was going to be able to shadow fast guys, then they weren’t thinking too straight.  That can’t be it.

 

if the line pans out like CB is attempting and we can get good pressure from the front 4, I’ll bet you’ll see more T2 in 2022, and the Leonard’s and Blackmons will shine downhill.

I am not sure it will work out at all.  We ve got s bunch of,projects yet to prove much.

 

that being said, as far as I can tell we lack the very good coverage MIKe and maybe that is CBS last piece to the puzzle.  

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

sure and Leonard has been average or below the entire time in coverage.  The passer rating plummets with the 5 Ints.  If you took those 5 plays away, you’d see similar numbers and it would be easy to see what DL is.  A playmaking Will who covers a lot of ground sideline to sideline in the running game and is pretty much a liability in coverage.

Passer rating plummets with INTs, but INTs have no bearing on completion %. 

Completion % allowed does have direct impact on passer rating though. 

In short, both A (INTs) and B (completion %) have impact on C (passer rating), but A has zero impact on B. And B was good.

[bestQBever]

I love it. Someone make sure Darius sees that post

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

This could be, but our safety play v the pass was weaker this year too which doesn’t help.

 

I've discussed with you before that Colts personnel moves are perplexing.  Leonard and Blackmon have the same strengths and weaknesses.  
 

I really think this team is wanting to play Tampa2 and let DL and Blackmon play fast downhill but lack the coverage MIke to do so.  

It feels like our D thinks it's playing our O.... if that makes sense. Our O plays a lot of short dink/dunk, our D wants to defend the same. Blackmon has elite traits downhill, just not sure he has the discipline to do well deep. We'll see. Still early for him. I could see more adjustments with a new DB coach, so there's that. I could also see them reviewing film and thinking they need to simplify some things and making it easier on LBs. We'll see. I'm just not that sold on Flus. I'm not selling yet, just not buying either.

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

it makes less sense to me to see RYS rarely play a hard T2 corner when he seems perfecly suited to do so, and if they ever thought with his lack of speed that he was going to be able to shadow fast guys, then they weren’t thinking too straight.  That can’t be it.

RYS's draft pick, and usage, almost confuses me as much as Hooker's.

1 hour ago, Nickster said:

 

if the line pans out like CB is attempting and we can get good pressure from the front 4, I’ll bet you’ll see more T2 in 2022, and the Leonard’s and Blackmons will shine downhill.

I am not sure it will work out at all.  We ve got s bunch of,projects yet to prove much.

 

that being said, as far as I can tell we lack the very good coverage MIKe and maybe that is CBS last piece to the puzzle.  

I think at the end of the day, the D scheme has played more to ideology than to player strength. If that's the case, stubbornness will bite you. If you're not going to be flexible, then don't draft opposite trait guys.

[Nickster]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It feels like our D thinks it's playing our O.... if that makes sense. Our O plays a lot of short dink/dunk, our D wants to defend the same. Blackmon has elite traits downhill, just not sure he has the discipline to do well deep. We'll see. Still early for him. I could see more adjustments with a new DB coach, so there's that. I could also see them reviewing film and thinking they need to simplify some things and making it easier on LBs. We'll see. I'm just not that sold on Flus. I'm not selling yet, just not buying either.

RYS's draft pick, and usage, almost confuses me as much as Hooker's.

I think at the end of the day, the D scheme has played more to ideology than to player strength. If that's the case, stubbornness will bite you. If you're not going to be flexible, then don't draft opposite trait guys.

this is where I think CB deserves criticism in his drafts.  Players like Leonard and Blackmon don’t necessarily allow flexibility in scheme IMO.  Also none of his other drafted players at premium positions have panned out that well either.

 

This is where you and I have had a lot of conflict.  IMO we’ve drafted players that can’t do what they were drafted to do at CB and EDGE.  I think we have a personnel issue more than a play calling issue.  When you are week in over the top coverage, it limits what you can call.

 

I think we will have a pretty weak defense next season, but if what I think is the plan with the the two DLs they drafted and development by a couple of younger guys, I think we might be able to look really aggressive playing a lot of T2 with people flying around in front and enough pressure to limit the over the top threat.

 

how do you think we look defensively next year?  I am almost certain we will start the year worse than we ended it last season.

[EastStreet]

27 minutes ago, Nickster said:

this is where I think CB deserves criticism in his drafts.  Players like Leonard and Blackmon don’t necessarily allow flexibility in scheme IMO.  Also none of his other drafted players at premium positions have panned out that well either.

I agree CB deserves criticism, but I don't necessarily agree on the details.

 

Hooker - single high stud drafted to play 2 high. bad... really bad for where they picked him. His tape going downhill wasn't great.

 

Rock - man/press CB drafted to play zone. Nothing though in his tape that would suggest he couldn't play zone. Just a lot of tape that said he was good in man/press. - not bad, not good from CB's perspective. But.. there were other guys that could have been less traits-ee and more scheme. 

 

Leonard - raw. His tape was good in all facets but his comp level was poor. Nothing to say he'd be bad vs the pass. - not bad at all. 

 

Banogu - was just a reach on traits regardless of system (if you know TCU's scheme, you know what I mean).

 

27 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

This is where you and I have had a lot of conflict.  IMO we’ve drafted players that can’t do what they were drafted to do at CB and EDGE.  I think we have a personnel issue more than a play calling issue.  When you are week in over the top coverage, it limits what you can call.

 

I think we will have a pretty weak defense next season, but if what I think is the plan with the the two DLs they drafted and development by a couple of younger guys, I think we might be able to look really aggressive playing a lot of T2 with people flying around in front and enough pressure to limit the over the top threat.

 

how do you think we look defensively next year?  I am almost certain we will start the year worse than we ended it last season.

I think DBs are the same. I think LB takes a step back. I think the DL will struggle, but flash a bit early. I like the draft picks long term, but I still don't like being league low in blitzing. It simply allows OLs to get comfy. I don't want to go blitz happy, I just want to be near the median, and make opposing Ds work harder.

 

 

[Nickster]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I agree CB deserves criticism, but I don't necessarily agree on the details.

 

Hooker - single high stud drafted to play 2 high. bad... really bad for where they picked him. His tape going downhill wasn't great.

 

Rock - man/press CB drafted to play zone. Nothing though in his tape that would suggest he couldn't play zone. Just a lot of tape that said he was good in man/press. - not bad, not good from CB's perspective. But.. there were other guys that could have been less traits-ee and more scheme. 

 

Leonard - raw. His tape was good in all facets but his comp level was poor. Nothing to say he'd be bad vs the pass. - not bad at all. 

 

Banogu - was just a reach on traits regardless of system (if you know TCU's scheme, you know what I mean).

 

I think DBs are the same. I think LB takes a step back. I think the DL will struggle, but flash a bit early. I like the draft picks long term, but I still don't like being league low in blitzing. It simply allows OLs to get comfy. I don't want to go blitz happy, I just want to be near the median, and make opposing Ds work harder.

 

 

So how do you think we will look with what we have now?

[EastStreet]

14 minutes ago, Nickster said:

So how do you think we will look with what we have now?

Scheme/coaching will hold the O and D back.

 

Players are a whole different story. 

 

[IanColts22]

On 5/28/2021 at 10:47 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

Yet  when they rank Nelson as the best Guard, the forum jumps for joy!!

When they ranked Nelson he was ranked correctly that’s why not because he is a Colt.  If he played for any other team I would still have the same reaction.  These LB besides Bobby Legion OF Doom Wagyu Wagner the rest of them from 2-5 isn’t no where near better then D Leonard.  Again not because Leonard is a Colts player either!  ; )

[Mitch Connors]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:04 AM, AustinnKaine said:

It's interesting because each linebacker is different.

 

That's like asking which fruit juice is best. Obvioulsy you got your top choices, and then the meh juices. 

 

However you wanna squeeze it, Darius Leonard is full of top shelf juice. 

 

(Joking aside, he plays weak side backer... so it really isn't productive to compare him to LBs except those playing weak side as well)

 

 There's a lot going on in this post and I love all of it.  Some may call this post....juicy.

[Moosejawcolt]

16 hours ago, IanColts22 said:

When they ranked Nelson he was ranked correctly that’s why not because he is a Colt.  If he played for any other team I would still have the same reaction.  These LB besides Bobby Legion OF Doom Wagyu Wagner the rest of them from 2-5 isn’t no where near better then D Leonard.  Again not because Leonard is a Colts player either!  ; )

And u would know that because u have personally watched the other lbs play all year? Some say the guard for Cleveland is the best in the game and he was a 2nd rounder

[NewColtsFan]

42 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

And u would know that because u have personally watched the other lbs play all year? Some say the guard for Cleveland is the best in the game and he was a 2nd rounder

Some say?

 

Puh-leeze!!

 

Who are some people?   Nelson as the best guard in the game is as close to unanimous as any position ranking.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:23 PM, NewColtsFan said:

Some say?

 

Puh-leeze!!

 

Who are some people?   Nelson as the best guard in the game is as close to unanimous as any position ranking.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/grades/position/g

[EastStreet]

15 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

https://www.pff.com/nfl/grades/position/g

 

And then there's this...

 

"1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years."

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-guard-rankings-the-32-best-players-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

 

More importantly though, the two guys ranked ahead of Nelson in those grades are both RGs...... And we all know LG>RG... 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

And then there's this...

 

"1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years."

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-guard-rankings-the-32-best-players-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

 

More importantly though, the two guys ranked ahead of Nelson in those grades are both RGs...... And we all know LG>RG... 

East, there is no use in debating with him, he is a Nelson and Leonard hater. He will say it is not hate but when you carry on the way he does about those 2 players for 6 months now, what do you call it then  

[Moosejawcolt]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

And then there's this...

 

"1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years."

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-guard-rankings-the-32-best-players-entering-the-2021-nfl-season

 

 

More importantly though, the two guys ranked ahead of Nelson in those grades are both RGs...... And we all know LG>RG... 

Agreed. I was just saying some think Teller is one of the best. Guards can be found in later rounds.

[NewColtsFan]

40 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

https://www.pff.com/nfl/grades/position/g

Did you just see that your guy, Teller, was ranked in the 90’s out of the top-100 by CBS Sports? 
 

Nelson was ranked in the 20’s.    Perhaps the fact that Nelson has performed at a high level for all three of his seasons is one aspect of that 70-player gap. 
 

Poor Cleveland...  now they’re going to have to pay Teller big money.   Maybe they should just let him walk and let some other team pay him.   Cleveland can find some competent guard on Day 3 to replace Teller. 

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Agreed. I was just saying some think Teller is one of the best. Guards can be found in later rounds.

best RG. 

Nelson is easily the best LG, or G in general. 

Doubt you can find anyone that would say Teller is better than Q.

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

East, there is no use in debating with him, he is a Nelson and Leonard hater. He will say it is not hate but when you carry on the way he does about those 2 players for 6 months now, what do you call it then  

It's not really a debate... 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

best RG. 

Nelson is easily the best LG, or G in general. 

Doubt you can find anyone that would say Teller is better than Q.

It's not really a debate... 

You are right it isn't, Nelson is hands down the best OG in the league.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You are right it isn't, Nelson is hands down the best OG in the league.

I understand his stance on paying so much for a guard, or the value equation, but the attempt to downplay Q's talent or dominance is pretty silly.

 

I can understand his feelings on Leonard a little more, but the constant poo-poo is a bit over the top.

[2006Coltsbestever]

50 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I understand his stance on paying so much for a guard, or the value equation, but the attempt to downplay Q's talent or dominance is pretty silly.

 

I can understand his feelings on Leonard a little more, but the constant poo-poo is a bit over the top.

I honestly don't even understand his stance because Neslon is the best OG in the league. It would be different if he were like the 5th best OG in the league which is still great but not near #1. Take him off our O.Line it becomes average even as good as Kelly and Smith are.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I honestly don't even understand his stance because Neslon is the best OG in the league. It would be different if he were like the 5th best OG in the league which is still great but not near #1. Take him off our O.Line it becomes average even as good as Kelly and Smith are.

It's about the value and structure of the OL.

Long term, most teams would prefer to have a #1 LT than a #1 LG. And most teams don't want to pay their LG top LT money.

 

And overall, our OL spend is top 3 right now, and that's with Smith and Nelson on rook contracts, Glow on the cheap, and a cheap one year with Fisher. Next year our OL spend will be off the charts.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It's about the value and structure of the OL.

Long term, most teams would prefer to have a #1 LT than a #1 LG. And most teams don't want to pay their LG top LT money.

 

And overall, our OL spend is top 3 right now, and that's with Smith and Nelson on rook contracts, Glow on the cheap, and a cheap one year with Fisher. Next year our OL spend will be off the charts.

I get that regarding your first sentence but there are outliers and Nelson is one of them. Not paying Nelson and letting him walk would've been like the Cowboys letting Larry Allen walk who played mainly OG. You just don't do it.

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I get that regarding your first sentence but there are outliers and Nelson is one of them. Not paying Nelson and letting him walk would've been like the Cowboys letting Larry Allen walk who played mainly OG. You just don't do it.

Not saying you let Nelson walk. I'm saying paying a LG #1 money, an OC #1 money, a RT top 3 money, etc., will have it's impact on the roster. And that's without nailing down a LT.

[2006Coltsbestever]

27 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Not saying you let Nelson walk. I'm saying paying a LG #1 money, an OC #1 money, a RT top 3 money, etc., will have it's impact on the roster. And that's without nailing down a LT.

You aren't saying it @Moosejawcoltis, is my point. Ask Moosejaw if he would pay Nelson 18 Mill a year. I already know the answer. 

[PRnum1]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Not saying you let Nelson walk. I'm saying paying a LG #1 money, an OC #1 money, a RT top 3 money, etc., will have it's impact on the roster. And that's without nailing down a LT.

I agree.  Your skill positions will suffer.

 

Skill positions like a #1 WR and #1 CB

[Four2itus]

Blah blah.....

 

you pay dominant players....dominant money. Dominant players, change teams. 

 

Period.

[Moosejawcolt]

21 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

You aren't saying it @Moosejawcoltis, is my point. Ask Moosejaw if he would pay Nelson 18 Mill a year. I already know the answer. 

Why do u think Bellichek won 6 superbowls!?

[Moosejawcolt]

22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

It's about the value and structure of the OL.

Long term, most teams would prefer to have a #1 LT than a #1 LG. And most teams don't want to pay their LG top LT money.

 

And overall, our OL spend is top 3 right now, and that's with Smith and Nelson on rook contracts, Glow on the cheap, and a cheap one year with Fisher. Next year our OL spend will be off the charts.

That's why I poo poo so much as u say it. I don't see a team winning a superbowl with this formula of spending so much on the Oline with no skill players to speak of as yet.

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Why do u think Bellichek won 6 superbowls!?

Because he had Tom Brady.

[Moosejawcolt]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Because he had Tom Brady.

Oh yes....u r so right. The 1st 3 superbowls, Tom was a game manager.  When Brady had his greatest statistical years, they didnt win a superbowl. Football is the ultimate team sport, yet many want to hang superbowls on the qb. It is because Bill puts a value on a player and does not sway from that value. He let's players walk and/or trades them a year before they become a free agent knowing he will never pay what the market demands.

[Moosejawcolt]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Because he had Tom Brady.

Let's start with defense. In 19 years as a starter, Brady has had the benefit of a Top 10 defense on his side 16 times.

In fact, the worst defense Brady ever had was in 2002, when New England allowed 21.6 points per game and ranked 17th.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Oh yes....u r so right. The 1st 3 superbowls, Tom was a game manager.  When Brady had his greatest statistical years, they didnt win a superbowl. Football is the ultimate team sport, yet many want to hang superbowls on the qb. It is because Bill puts a value on a player and does not sway from that value. He let's players walk and/or trades them a year before they become a free agent knowing he will never pay what the market demands.

How many SB's does Belichick have without Tom Brady? Is the better question. You are using a bad example because Tom is the GOAT. He was a game manager in the 1st SB win but still made clutch plays during that run. It is fine, you say if Nelson asks for 17/18 Mill don't pay him and let him walk. We can just get someone just as good as him  

[2006Coltsbestever]

All coaches put value on a player, I do as well as a fan but like I have repeated saying Nelson is an outlier at OG. Using Belichick is a bad example and you know it, he had Brady for every SB win. Mike Tomlin is a great coach and uses value of a player and has even had Big Ben who is great, he has only won 1 SB.

[2006Coltsbestever]

41 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

That's why I poo poo so much as u say it. I don't see a team winning a superbowl with this formula of spending so much on the Oline with no skill players to speak of as yet.

JT, Hines, Pittman, Moore, Leonard are all solid skill players. Pittman will be better in year 2, JT is already a top 10 RB, Moore and Leonard speak for themselves as playmakers. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

43 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Let's start with defense. In 19 years as a starter, Brady has had the benefit of a Top 10 defense on his side 16 times.

In fact, the worst defense Brady ever had was in 2002, when New England allowed 21.6 points per game and ranked 17th.

He has had some great defenses that we agree on but so have other QB's and they fail to win the SB. Ben has had quite a few of them and he has only won 2 in his career, only 1 under Tomlin. BB is arguably the greatest coach ever but using him as an example when he has had Brady for every one of his championships is a reach. 

[Moosejawcolt]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

How many SB's does Belichick have without Tom Brady? Is the better question. You are using a bad example because Tom is the GOAT. He was a game manager in the 1st SB win but still made clutch plays during that run. It is fine, you say if Nelson asks for 17/18 Mill don't pay him and let him walk. We can just get someone just as good as him  

Oh Nelson will ask for much more than 17-18 million

[2006Coltsbestever]

25 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Oh Nelson will ask for much more than 17-18 million

We will see, I am guessing 18 Mill over 4 years = 72 Mill. 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

21 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Why do u think Bellichek won 6 superbowls!?

Oh, I know the answer to this one!

 

Because he CHEATED.