NFL Mount Rushmore (All Time)

[pacolts56]

My All-Time would be....

 

Jim Brown

Jerry Rice

Lawrence Taylor

Peyton Manning 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

Tom Brady

Jerry Rice

Joe Greene

Jim Brown

[AwesomeAustin]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:13 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Brady is the most accomplished QB, no debate there. Peyton did win 5 League MVP's though which will never be matched and won 2 SB's as a starter on 2 different teams, nobody has done that either. Can't go wrong with either. Brady has always had Belichick for all of his Titles, imagine Peyton with Belichick? Those QB's along with Montana are the best I have seen by eye test anyway.

Not challenging you bc I get your point, just quoting bc you mentioned it. Ive never given the coach argument much credit.  Jordan had Phil Jackson who went on to win 5 more championships...yet it never creeps into the conversation.  Dynasties are created by the right combination of coaches and players. What Tom Brady did will probably never be duplicated.  50yrs from now they will talk about Peyton like we do Unitas but Tom Brady will probably have an award named after him.  He is easily the best QB to ever play and probably never be matched. Yeah Hoodie is great but let’s be real, he is Jeff Fisher without Brady. 

[CurBeatElite]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:13 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Brady is the most accomplished QB, no debate there. Peyton did win 5 League MVP's though which will never be matched and won 2 SB's as a starter on 2 different teams, nobody has done that either. Can't go wrong with either. Brady has always had Belichick for all of his Titles, imagine Peyton with Belichick? Those QB's along with Montana are the best I have seen by eye test anyway.

 

Brady also always had a pretty good defense to go with his coaching staff.  Peyton won 7 first-team all pros (with 3 second teams), Brady won 3 (with two second teams).  Peyton won 5 MVPs to Brady's 3.  Brady has surpassed many of Peyton's individual accomplishments simply due to longevity, which is impressive for sure.  Brady won more SBs than Peyton, but a lot more goes into an SB than just one player.  The fact that the same professional voters selected Peyton to 3 more MVPs while he and Brady were both playing at the same time (Brady won his last MVP in 2017 after Peyton retired) and 4 more first-team all pros tells me Peyton was a better QB than Brady.  Peyton also put up better stats if you limit their time windows down to the same period over the course of their career.  The fact Brady has more SBs than Peyton tells me Brady played on better teams and/or with better coaches.  The other thing to consider there is the Colts were truly built to play on turf and struggled against the Pats (losing to them twice) on the road in the playoffs (the year we beat them in playoffs was a home game when we went on to beat Chicago in the SB).

 

On 12/14/2020 at 11:33 AM, AwesomeAustin said:

Not challenging you bc I get your point, just quoting bc you mentioned it. Ive never given the coach argument much credit.  Jordan had Phil Jackson who went on to win 5 more championships...yet it never creeps into the conversation.  Dynasties are created by the right combination of coaches and players. What Tom Brady did will probably never be duplicated.  50yrs from now they will talk about Peyton like we do Unitas but Tom Brady will probably have an award named after him.  He is easily the best QB to ever play and probably never be matched. Yeah Hoodie is great but let’s be real, he is Jeff Fisher without Brady. 

 

I have a hard time following your logic in comparing basketball to football in terms of talking about all-time great players and coaches.  I do agree that dynasties (in any sport) are created by the right combo of coaches and players.  First of all, in basketball a coach is managing 5 guys on the court who play offense and defense and ~8 guys on the bench (with typically only a handful playing a significant role over the course of a game or season).  Rings aside, why people say Jordan was the GOAT was because he was terrific on offense and defense, he beat his opponents in every aspect of the game.  Not saying Phil wasn't a great coach.. but I think what Phil did better than almost any other coach was to be able to control egos and allow superstars to play with each other.  The NBA coach, unlike the NFL coach has to rely on his same star players to play solid offense, solid defense, solid transition game, etc.. the NFL coach has 11 guys starting on O, 11 totally different guys starting on D, some mix of that (typically at least 5 totally different guys) on STs, plus a much larger group of situational players who rotate in and out of every game.

 

Football is different.  There are different players playing different roles in all 3 phases of the game and a coach is responsible for almost 50 players per week, the majority of them playing some sort of role in 1 of 3 phases of the game.  Coaching there is way different and Belichick is probably the best to ever do it.  While Peyton or Brady may be able to help their defense with the other QB by giving them good  field position and keeping their offense on the field to limit the time the other had to work against their D, Peyton was never on the field playing at the same time as Brady in any game.  I'm not saying I have the definitive answer because it is an argument that will never be settled, but I certainly don't think Brady is "easily the best QB to ever play."  The amount of SB wins Brady and Belichick have will be hard to match by any coach/QB duo.  In fact, that number will be hard to match for any player at any position.  In less games played, Brees has >1,500 more passing yards and is right there with  him with passing TDs.  If Brees gets healthy and retires the same time as Brady, I'd be he goes into the record books with more yards, TDs, a better QBR, better completion percentage, etc. than Brady - the only thing Brady will have on him is more rings.  If you look at passing yards per game on average, Brady's 10th all time with guys like Stafford, Manning, Matt Ryan and Brees above him (as well as younger guys who haven't played long enough to be considered HOFers yet like Mahomes, Goff, Watson and J. Winston.. and Luck).  If you look at pass completion percent, Brady is 18th all time.  If you look at passer rating, Brady is 9th all time (well behind Rodgers, Wilson, and Brees... slightly behind Tony Romo, and a very long way behind Mahomes and Watson with Kirk Cousins and Dak Prescott being the other two ahead of him).  

 

Long story short, the individual records Brady has or may have when he retires are due mainly to his longevity.  I don't want to discredit him for that, but in his 21 year career he has been voted to 3 first-team all pros, 2 second-team all pros.  That means >75% of his time in the league, he was not considered the first or 2nd best QB in the league.  In 18 seasons, Peyton was named 1st team all-pro 7x and 2nd team 3x (meaning >55% of his career Peyton was the best or 2nd best QB in the league).  Peyton was 5x NFL MVP, compared to Brady's 3x.  Do I believe Peyton was a more valuable player than Brady? I do 100% and I think it's clearly evidenced by the fact that without Peyton the Colts went from a division winning team to the worst team in the entire NFL by a long shot in 2011 when we went 2-14 and were embarrassing to watch.  The year Brady missed, Matt Cassell lead that team to an 11-5 record (Matt Cassell was a backup to Buttfumble Sanchez and Matt Leinart in college and never had much success in the NFL aside from that season which lead to him getting an overpaid contract).  

 

Sure, Brady and Belichick probably both needed each other.  Brady definitely won't win his division this year without Belichick though he's arguably playing with his best WR group of his career and on a pretty solid team.  The one Bucs game I have fully watched Brady looked downright awful (a 38-3 loss to NO).  He's 25th in the NFL in completion percentage and though he's 4th in the NFL in passing attempts he's only 10th in yards, he's thrown the 5th most INTs, he's got the 14th highest QBR and 13th highest rating, etc.... maybe it's his age, maybe it's a new scheme... but he certainly doesn't look like much more than an average QB right now, maybe it's a change in coaches.  Peyton, coming off a missed season due to severe neck injury went into an entirely new system with a new coach and had, stats wise, the best 3 year stretch of his career.  Peyton also went to the SB with four different head coaches (Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak) and played very well with Mora as his coach (after his rookie year).  So, yea, it'll be the first year in a while that Brady and Belichick won't win their divisions.  Neither is mathematically clinched or eliminated from the playoffs (more likely the Bucs get in than the Pats), and sure it has been a weird offseason (especially for Belichick who had 8 or more guys opt of for covid reasons after Brady left).  It is both Brady and Belichick's worst year in a while.  It'll be impressive if either of them win a SB without the other, and I doubt it'll happen... but Belichick proved he could win 11 games in a season without Brady on the same team Brady played on (with a QB who never started a game in college), whereas a coach Peyton took to the superbowl and went 14-2 with just 2 years prior went 2-14 without Peyton.

 

If you judge QBs by rings alone, Brady's the best to ever do it, that's for sure (but that'd also mean Dilfer, Flacco, Brad Smith, Jeff Hostetler, Nick Foles, Eli Manning, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, etc. are all better QBs than HOFers Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, and Dan Fouts and potentially soon to be HOFer Philip Rivers).  If you want to talk about who was more valuable to his team, I don't think you have to look any further than the Colts without Peyton going from division winner, 2 years removed from a SB appearance to 2-14 vs. the Pats winning 11 games without Brady.  If you want to talk about, pure individual statistics then it's a no-brainer that Brees is a superior QB to Brady.  If you want to talk about longevity, Brady has that (in 2 more starts he'll break Favre's record) but if you want to talk about anything aside from that and SB rings Brady isn't the best ever.  I'm not saying I have a clear cut answer who the best QB ever is, but for sure, Brady is not "easily the best QB to ever play", not even close.   

[AwesomeAustin]

11 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Brady also always had a pretty good defense to go with his coaching staff.  Peyton won 7 first-team all pros (with 3 second teams), Brady won 3 (with two second teams).  Peyton won 5 MVPs to Brady's 3.  Brady has surpassed many of Peyton's individual accomplishments simply due to longevity, which is impressive for sure.  Brady won more SBs than Peyton, but a lot more goes into an SB than just one player.  The fact that the same professional voters selected Peyton to 3 more MVPs while he and Brady were both playing at the same time (Brady won his last MVP in 2017 after Peyton retired) and 4 more first-team all pros tells me Peyton was a better QB than Brady.  Peyton also put up better stats if you limit their time windows down to the same period over the course of their career.  The fact Brady has more SBs than Peyton tells me Brady played on better teams and/or with better coaches.  The other thing to consider there is the Colts were truly built to play on turf and struggled against the Pats (losing to them twice) on the road in the playoffs (the year we beat them in playoffs was a home game when we went on to beat Chicago in the SB).

 

 

I have a hard time following your logic in comparing basketball to football in terms of talking about all-time great players and coaches.  I do agree that dynasties (in any sport) are created by the right combo of coaches and players.  First of all, in basketball a coach is managing 5 guys on the court who play offense and defense and ~8 guys on the bench (with typically only a handful playing a significant role over the course of a game or season).  Rings aside, why people say Jordan was the GOAT was because he was terrific on offense and defense, he beat his opponents in every aspect of the game.  Not saying Phil wasn't a great coach.. but I think what Phil did better than almost any other coach was to be able to control egos and allow superstars to play with each other.  The NBA coach, unlike the NFL coach has to rely on his same star players to play solid offense, solid defense, solid transition game, etc.. the NFL coach has 11 guys starting on O, 11 totally different guys starting on D, some mix of that (typically at least 5 totally different guys) on STs, plus a much larger group of situational players who rotate in and out of every game.

 

Football is different.  There are different players playing different roles in all 3 phases of the game and a coach is responsible for almost 50 players per week, the majority of them playing some sort of role in 1 of 3 phases of the game.  Coaching there is way different and Belichick is probably the best to ever do it.  While Peyton or Brady may be able to help their defense with the other QB by giving them good  field position and keeping their offense on the field to limit the time the other had to work against their D, Peyton was never on the field playing at the same time as Brady in any game.  I'm not saying I have the definitive answer because it is an argument that will never be settled, but I certainly don't think Brady is "easily the best QB to ever play."  The amount of SB wins Brady and Belichick have will be hard to match by any coach/QB duo.  In fact, that number will be hard to match for any player at any position.  In less games played, Brees has >1,500 more passing yards and is right there with  him with passing TDs.  If Brees gets healthy and retires the same time as Brady, I'd be he goes into the record books with more yards, TDs, a better QBR, better completion percentage, etc. than Brady - the only thing Brady will have on him is more rings.  If you look at passing yards per game on average, Brady's 10th all time with guys like Stafford, Manning, Matt Ryan and Brees above him (as well as younger guys who haven't played long enough to be considered HOFers yet like Mahomes, Goff, Watson and J. Winston.. and Luck).  If you look at pass completion percent, Brady is 18th all time.  If you look at passer rating, Brady is 9th all time (well behind Rodgers, Wilson, and Brees... slightly behind Tony Romo, and a very long way behind Mahomes and Watson with Kirk Cousins and Dak Prescott being the other two ahead of him).  

 

Long story short, the individual records Brady has or may have when he retires are due mainly to his longevity.  I don't want to discredit him for that, but in his 21 year career he has been voted to 3 first-team all pros, 2 second-team all pros.  That means >75% of his time in the league, he was not considered the first or 2nd best QB in the league.  In 18 seasons, Peyton was named 1st team all-pro 7x and 2nd team 3x (meaning >55% of his career Peyton was the best or 2nd best QB in the league).  Peyton was 5x NFL MVP, compared to Brady's 3x.  Do I believe Peyton was a more valuable player than Brady? I do 100% and I think it's clearly evidenced by the fact that without Peyton the Colts went from a division winning team to the worst team in the entire NFL by a long shot in 2011 when we went 2-14 and were embarrassing to watch.  The year Brady missed, Matt Cassell lead that team to an 11-5 record (Matt Cassell was a backup to Buttfumble Sanchez and Matt Leinart in college and never had much success in the NFL aside from that season which lead to him getting an overpaid contract).  

 

Sure, Brady and Belichick probably both needed each other.  Brady definitely won't win his division this year without Belichick though he's arguably playing with his best WR group of his career and on a pretty solid team.  The one Bucs game I have fully watched Brady looked downright awful (a 38-3 loss to NO).  He's 25th in the NFL in completion percentage and though he's 4th in the NFL in passing attempts he's only 10th in yards, he's thrown the 5th most INTs, he's got the 14th highest QBR and 13th highest rating, etc.... maybe it's his age, maybe it's a new scheme... but he certainly doesn't look like much more than an average QB right now, maybe it's a change in coaches.  Peyton, coming off a missed season due to severe neck injury went into an entirely new system with a new coach and had, stats wise, the best 3 year stretch of his career.  Peyton also went to the SB with four different head coaches (Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak) and played very well with Mora as his coach (after his rookie year).  So, yea, it'll be the first year in a while that Brady and Belichick won't win their divisions.  Neither is mathematically clinched or eliminated from the playoffs (more likely the Bucs get in than the Pats), and sure it has been a weird offseason (especially for Belichick who had 8 or more guys opt of for covid reasons after Brady left).  It is both Brady and Belichick's worst year in a while.  It'll be impressive if either of them win a SB without the other, and I doubt it'll happen... but Belichick proved he could win 11 games in a season without Brady on the same team Brady played on (with a QB who never started a game in college), whereas a coach Peyton took to the superbowl and went 14-2 with just 2 years prior went 2-14 without Peyton.

 

If you judge QBs by rings alone, Brady's the best to ever do it, that's for sure (but that'd also mean Dilfer, Flacco, Brad Smith, Jeff Hostetler, Nick Foles, Eli Manning, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, etc. are all better QBs than HOFers Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton, and Dan Fouts and potentially soon to be HOFer Philip Rivers).  If you want to talk about who was more valuable to his team, I don't think you have to look any further than the Colts without Peyton going from division winner, 2 years removed from a SB appearance to 2-14 vs. the Pats winning 11 games without Brady.  If you want to talk about, pure individual statistics then it's a no-brainer that Brees is a superior QB to Brady.  If you want to talk about longevity, Brady has that (in 2 more starts he'll break Favre's record) but if you want to talk about anything aside from that and SB rings Brady isn't the best ever.  I'm not saying I have a clear cut answer who the best QB ever is, but for sure, Brady is not "easily the best QB to ever play", not even close.   

Very good post!  However, I would assume the majority of people disagree with you.  Peyton was absolutely fantastic.  No denying that.  However, games are played to win them and players are also judged on championships. 6 Super Bowls, 9 appearances and all time stats to back it up. Brady is the most accomplished QB to ever play the game.  In 20-30yrs people will still talk regularly about Tom Brady and Peyton will be mentioned like we do Marino and Montana.  One of the all time greats but not the best. 

[crazycolt1]

41 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Very good post!  However, I would assume the majority of people disagree with you.  Peyton was absolutely fantastic.  No denying that.  However, games are played to win them and players are also judged on championships. 6 Super Bowls, 9 appearances and all time stats to back it up. Brady is the most accomplished QB to ever play the game.  In 20-30yrs people will still talk regularly about Tom Brady and Peyton will be mentioned like we do Marino and Montana.  One of the all time greats but not the best. 

That's only if you use super bowls to judge who you think is the best.

Super bowls are won by teams. 

No one QB won anything without a team around them. 

 

[FortheWin]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:33 PM, AwesomeAustin said:

Not challenging you bc I get your point, just quoting bc you mentioned it. Ive never given the coach argument much credit.  Jordan had Phil Jackson who went on to win 5 more championships...yet it never creeps into the conversation.  Dynasties are created by the right combination of coaches and players. What Tom Brady did will probably never be duplicated.  50yrs from now they will talk about Peyton like we do Unitas but Tom Brady will probably have an award named after him.  He is easily the best QB to ever play and probably never be matched. Yeah Hoodie is great but let’s be real, he is Jeff Fisher without Brady. 

That is my view too.  Coaching is worth about 20%.  You have to have the transcendent player to achieve the heights of the Patriots or the Bulls. Your Jordan comparison is a good one. Jackson's triangle scheme was dynamite but that was because Jordan was running it. LOL.  That is what the greatest players do. They take the coaching and bring it to legendary status. 

 

I enjoyed your Jeff Fisher comparison (LOL) but Rex Ryan may be more comparable. Check this out, saw it on one of the football shows:

 

Rex Ryan has a record of 61-66 and a 4-2 playoff record.

Bill minus Brady has a record of 61-70 and a 1-1 playoff record.

 

[FortheWin]

56 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

That's only if you use super bowls to judge who you think is the best.

Super bowls are won by teams. 

No one QB won anything without a team around them. 

 

It isn't just Super Bowls even though post-season success is weighted the heaviest when talking about the greatest of the greats. He has regular season stats, wins, divisional titles, league MVPs AND all the post season records, wins, rings, SB MVPs.  And now he has added longevity on top, playing his 4th season in his 40s with already 30 TDs on a new team while his old team looks washed.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Going to basketball why is Jordan considered the GOAT? Kareem won 6 Titles like Jordan did = even, has scored more points, has more rebounds, shot a better FG%, has been to 10 Finals to Jordan's 6, won 6 league MVP's to Jordan's 5, and his longevity was better. Kareem also 3-peated in college. If we go by all those measures then Kareem is the GOAT but nobody says he is. See how silly that is. Kareem played against just as good as competition as well, the 80's was probably the toughest and most physical era in basketball. Kareem was going against young guys like Hakeem and Ralph, Pat Ewing, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, and Mark Eaton who was a mountain. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

20 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Going to basketball why is Jordan considered the GOAT? Kareem won 6 Titles like Jordan did = even, has scored more points, has more rebounds, shot a better FG%, has been to 10 Finals to Jordan's 6, won 6 league MVP's to Jordan's 5, and his longevity was better. Kareem also 3-peated in college. If we go by all those measures then Kareem is the GOAT but nobody says he is. See how silly that is. Kareem played against just as good as competition as well, the 80's was probably the toughest and most physical era in basketball. Kareem was going against young guys like Hakeem and Ralph, Pat Ewing, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, and Mark Eaton who was a mountain. 

I personally think Jordan is the GOAT but going by the key measures Kareem is. I have Kareem 3rd actually, Magic IMO was better than Kareem by my eye test. LeBron is 4th, JMO.

 

Football wise Brady never carried his teams like Peyton did, Peyton won 5 league MVP's. Peyton was like Wilt Chamberlain going up against stacked Bill Russell teams that had superior coaching when we played the Pats. Russell won 11 Titles to Chamberlain's 2 and on no planet is Bill Russell the better player. One on One Chamberlain would eat him alive.

[FortheWin]

21 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Going to basketball why is Jordan considered the GOAT? Kareem won 6 Titles like Jordan did = even, has scored more points, has more rebounds, shot a better FG%, has been to 10 Finals to Jordan's 6, won 6 league MVP's to Jordan's 5, and his longevity was better. Kareem also 3-peated in college. If we go by all those measures then Kareem is the GOAT but nobody says he is. See how silly that is. Kareem played against just as good as competition as well, the 80's was probably the toughest and most physical era in basketball. Kareem was going against young guys like Hakeem and Ralph, Pat Ewing, Robert Parish, Moses Malone, and Mark Eaton who was a mountain. 

Brady's resume is a lot more air tight for GOAT in the NFL than Jordan for the NBA. I think you can make solid arguments for Kareem and Bill Russell over Jordan. I believe Jordan is the GOAT but I won't derail the thread with all my reasons.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, FortheWin said:

It isn't just Super Bowls even though post-season success is weighted the heaviest when talking about the greatest of the greats. He has regular season stats, wins, divisional titles, league MVPs AND all the post season records, wins, rings, SB MVPs.  And now he has added longevity on top, playing his 4th season in his 40s with already 30 TDs on a new team while his old team looks washed.

I am not going to argue nor debate on who either one of us thinks is the GOAT QB.

It is all based off opinions and my opinion has just as much merit as yours.

There is not one QB on any list that did squat without a team around him. 

IMO Sammy Baugh was not only the greatest QB but also the best player in NFL history. What he did has never been matched or duplicated. Not even close. 

Care to agree or disagree makes no difference. 

Yes Tom has the rings but IMO rings do not tell the whole story. 

[danlhart87]

Lets keep this thread fun and avoid the GOAT debate 

[CurBeatElite]

On 12/16/2020 at 7:07 AM, FortheWin said:

It isn't just Super Bowls even though post-season success is weighted the heaviest when talking about the greatest of the greats. He has regular season stats, wins, divisional titles, league MVPs AND all the post season records, wins, rings, SB MVPs.  And now he has added longevity on top, playing his 4th season in his 40s with already 30 TDs on a new team while his old team looks washed.

 

His old team not only lost Brady, but they lost a league leading 8 players who opted out for covid including probowl/2nd team all-pro LB Dont'a Hightower, a probowl caliber S in Patrick Chung and 2nd team All-pro OT Marcus Cannon.  They also lost Jamie Collins (a probowler and 2nd team all-pro) in free agency.  

 

They lost Brady, yes... they also lost 3 all-pros and Patrick Chung (plus a few guys who were pretty solid players to covid opt-out).  They replaced Brady with a somewhat washed up Cam Newton who requires a whole different O system than Brady.  

 

The worst game from a QB I have seen this year is when NO beat TB 38-3 -- Brady threw 3 INTs, 0 TDs and had a rating of 40.3 (which is basically pathetic).  Outside of TDs, Brady is having the 10th worst season of his 21 year career.  He's not exactly killing it down in TB and they most certainly won't win the NFC South, and are not mathematically locked into the playoffs.  Brady's playing with a very skilled team and overall looking like a middle of the road QB in the NFL (definitely not the best QB in the league, definitely not top 5, arguably 10th best QB in the league but probably more like 13th (QBR) or 14th (RTG).  Maybe worse with the 25th best completion percentage, and 5th most INTs thrown.

 

On 12/16/2020 at 7:55 AM, FortheWin said:

Brady's resume is a lot more air tight for GOAT in the NFL than Jordan for the NBA. I think you can make solid arguments for Kareem and Bill Russell over Jordan. I believe Jordan is the GOAT but I won't derail the thread with all my reasons.

 

Brady lost 3 championships, Jordan was 100% in championship games.  Jordan had a much shorter career.  Took a bit off to pursue baseball and came back and still dominated.  If Jordan didn't have his temporary retirement, there is a very good chance the Bulls would have won 8 straight championships.  Jordan won 3 championships in a row twice in his career (the first before a 2 year hiatus, the 2nd after he returned).  Brady 2-peated one time.  Jordan is a 6x Finals MVP (100%).  Brady was a Superbowl MVP 4 out of 9 times (44%).  Jordan was 10x First-Team All-NBA and 1x 2nd-Team All-NBA, Brady is 3x First-Team All-NFL and 2x 2nd-team All-NFL.  Jordan was 9x First-Team All-NBA Defensive Team (Brady never played a snap of defense in his life).  Jordan was a 10x NBA Scoring Champion and 3x NBA Steals Leader, and 2x NBA Dunk Contest winner and 3x AP Athlete of the Year (including all sports).  Brady never had an interception in his life, he never has had the best arm (comparable to Dunk Contest) in the NFL and was a 1x AP Athlete of the Year (Montana did that 2x and Rodgers, Blanda and Brees have also done it 1x along with OJ Simpson as an NFL RB).  In terms of scoring or equivalent metrics in the NFL (again Jordan was 10x scoring champ), Brady was 3x NFL passing yards leader (Brees did it 7x, Marino did it 5x, Fouts did it 4x,  Peyton also did it 3x and has the record for most passing yards in a season) and 4x threw the most TDs in a season (Peyton, Brees, Favre, Steve Young, Johnny U all also did it 4x with Peyton owning the single-season record). 

 

 By no means is Brady's resume more air tight than MJ.  MJ is still the face of basketball worldwide, the Jordan shoes are more universal of a brand than any other product by any other athlete.  TB 12 and the Tiger Woods logo followed MJ and neither are close to getting there.  You can argue MJ is the GOAT, just like you could argue that LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Bird, or several others are.  To this day (22 years after retirement) Jordan is the world-wide face of basketball and NBA.  The NFL, or American football, is nowhere near as global as basketball, soccer, boxing, UFC, or Golf.  I'm not close to convinced that Brady is the face of the NFL (you could argue Mahomes, Peyton, Rodgers, JJ Watt and several others, including Kaepernick) in the USA, and guarantee the majority of the time you went to another country people would be more aware of MJ than they are of Brady.  

 

On 12/16/2020 at 8:08 AM, crazycolt1 said:

I am not going to argue nor debate on who either one of us thinks is the GOAT QB.

It is all based off opinions and my opinion has just as much merit as yours.

There is not one QB on any list that did squat without a team around him. 

IMO Sammy Baugh was not only the greatest QB but also the best player in NFL history. What he did has never been matched or duplicated. Not even close. 

Care to agree or disagree makes no difference. 

Yes Tom has the rings but IMO rings do not tell the whole story. 

 

If rings told the whole story, Trent Dilfer/Doug Williams/Nick Foles/Joe Flacco/Brad Smith/Phil Simms/Jeff Hosttler etc. are better QBs than HOFers Marino, Fouts, Moon, Kelly, Tarkenton and future HOF Rivers.  If rings told the whole story, Eli has a 2-0 record and Foles is 1-0 vs. Brady in the Superbowl playing for rings (would anyone argue Eli or Foles is a better QB than Brady, probably not.... the argument would be that the NYG and Philadelphia Eagles had better teams than the Patriots, even though Eli has two SB MVPs and Foles has 1 -- Julian Edelman and Deion Branch were MVPs on 2 of Brady's SB winning teams).  

 

Rings obviously do matter.  Troy Aikman is in the HOF because he has 3 of them.  He was 6x probowler and never a 1st or 2nd-team NFL All-Pro.  He has a career completion percent of 61.5 and only once threw for more than 20 TDs in a single season.  He was never the best QB in the league at any point in his career.  He had arguably the best OL in NFL history with arguably the best RB (E. Smith) in NFL history (I don't think that's true, but Emmitt was on an all-Decade team and a 4x first-team All Pro, 2x 2nd team).  

 

On 12/16/2020 at 5:26 AM, AwesomeAustin said:

Very good post!  However, I would assume the majority of people disagree with you.  Peyton was absolutely fantastic.  No denying that.  However, games are played to win them and players are also judged on championships. 6 Super Bowls, 9 appearances and all time stats to back it up. Brady is the most accomplished QB to ever play the game.  In 20-30yrs people will still talk regularly about Tom Brady and Peyton will be mentioned like we do Marino and Montana.  One of the all time greats but not the best. 

 

I quoted your post where you said "Brady is easily the best QB to ever play."  I find it shocking that many people would agree with you.  Outside of SB rings and longevity, its very easy to argue why Brady is not the GOAT.  My opinion is, he isn't, but he's in the conversation.  He played under an amazing coach and had a very solid team around him for his SB wins.  In 13 less games played Brees has over 1,500 more yards and is right there with him in TDs, plus he has a significantly better completion percentage, yards per game and TD per game, less interceptions per attempts, etc...

 

 

[CurBeatElite]

On 12/16/2020 at 7:03 AM, FortheWin said:

That is my view too.  Coaching is worth about 20%.  You have to have the transcendent player to achieve the heights of the Patriots or the Bulls. Your Jordan comparison is a good one. Jackson's triangle scheme was dynamite but that was because Jordan was running it. LOL.  That is what the greatest players do. They take the coaching and bring it to legendary status. 

 

I enjoyed your Jeff Fisher comparison (LOL) but Rex Ryan may be more comparable. Check this out, saw it on one of the football shows:

 

Rex Ryan has a record of 61-66 and a 4-2 playoff record.

Bill minus Brady has a record of 61-70 and a 1-1 playoff record.

 

 

Nice cherry picking of your stats.  IMO, this is a horrible argument.

 

First, 34 of Belichick's losses came in his first stunt as an NFL Head Coach with a horrible organization, the Browns (who he did lead to 1 playoff appearance). 

 

His only losing seasons with the Patriots were 2000 (his first year) and as of right now, this season.  With the team he assembled which Brady was successful on, he was able to sub Brady out for Matt Cassell (the guy who wasn't good enough to beat out Mark Sanchez or Matt Leinart to earn a college start) and still go 11-5.  Aside from losing Brady this year he had 3 other all-pros leave (Jamie Collins, plus an OT and Dont'a Hightower who opted out) and a huge piece of his D Patrick Chung opted out.  He had 5 other players opt out, more than any other team in the NFL.  He has a QB in Newton which required him to totally change his offensive play book.  

 

He has shown, with the cast of players he had on Brady's teams he can win 11 games in a season with a sub-par QB in the NFL in Cassell.  He went 10-6 the next year when Brady returned.  With MIA, BUF, NYJ remaining, I would guess he'll go 8-8 or at worst 7-9 this season.  That's not just on Brady leaving, that's with losing 3 other all-pros and Patrick Chung plus 5 other role players.  Cam also missed a game.  

 

Jim Caldwell went 14-0 his first season as an NFL head coach with Peyton as his QB, where Peyton was basically the o-coordinator as well (or at least the play caller on offense).  I believe the Colts could have gone 16-0 that season but Caldwell decided to rest his starters the last two games.  The Colts and Caldwell lost the superbowl that year.  They went 10-6 the next year and then 2-14 the following year without Peyton which lead to Caldwell being fired, without Peyton and basically the same squad he took a Superbowl contending team to 2-14.  Without Brady, subbing in Cassell in a similar situation, Belichick won 11 games with Cassell.  Not that Painter or Orvlovski were great QBs, but I think you could have plugged them into Belichick's scheme when Cassell went 11-5 and saw similar performances.  Caldwell took a Superbowl contender (with Peyton) to the laughing stock of the league.

 

We will never know, but my guess is that if you plugged Peyton into Belichick's scheme he would have been as successful or more than Brady was... whereas, if you put Brady into the Colts' teams Peyton played on, he probably would not have seen the same success.    

 

[Barry Sears]

Jim Brown

Walter Payton

Barry Sanders

Emmett Smith

 

This is NFL Mount Rushmore  

[FortheWin]

8 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

Nice cherry picking of your stats.  IMO, this is a horrible argument.

 

First, 34 of Belichick's losses came in his first stunt as an NFL Head Coach with a horrible organization, the Browns (who he did lead to 1 playoff appearance). 

 

His only losing seasons with the Patriots were 2000 (his first year) and as of right now, this season.  With the team he assembled which Brady was successful on, he was able to sub Brady out for Matt Cassell (the guy who wasn't good enough to beat out Mark Sanchez or Matt Leinart to earn a college start) and still go 11-5.  Aside from losing Brady this year he had 3 other all-pros leave (Jamie Collins, plus an OT and Dont'a Hightower who opted out) and a huge piece of his D Patrick Chung opted out.  He had 5 other players opt out, more than any other team in the NFL.  He has a QB in Newton which required him to totally change his offensive play book.  

 

He has shown, with the cast of players he had on Brady's teams he can win 11 games in a season with a sub-par QB in the NFL in Cassell.  He went 10-6 the next year when Brady returned.  With MIA, BUF, NYJ remaining, I would guess he'll go 8-8 or at worst 7-9 this season.  That's not just on Brady leaving, that's with losing 3 other all-pros and Patrick Chung plus 5 other role players.  Cam also missed a game.  

 

Jim Caldwell went 14-0 his first season as an NFL head coach with Peyton as his QB, where Peyton was basically the o-coordinator as well (or at least the play caller on offense).  I believe the Colts could have gone 16-0 that season but Caldwell decided to rest his starters the last two games.  The Colts and Caldwell lost the superbowl that year.  They went 10-6 the next year and then 2-14 the following year without Peyton which lead to Caldwell being fired, without Peyton and basically the same squad he took a Superbowl contending team to 2-14.  Without Brady, subbing in Cassell in a similar situation, Belichick won 11 games with Cassell.  Not that Painter or Orvlovski were great QBs, but I think you could have plugged them into Belichick's scheme when Cassell went 11-5 and saw similar performances.  Caldwell took a Superbowl contender (with Peyton) to the laughing stock of the league.

 

We will never know, but my guess is that if you plugged Peyton into Belichick's scheme he would have been as successful or more than Brady was... whereas, if you put Brady into the Colts' teams Peyton played on, he probably would not have seen the same success.    

 

There is no cherry picking just the stats as we have a pretty large sample size (8 seasons) of Bill without Brady:

 

With Tom Brady as his starting QB: 224-66
With anybody else as his starting QB: 58-72 = 130 games = approx 8 seasons worth of data as HC
With anybody else as starting QB at Pats: 25-26 = 51 games =approx 3 seasons worth of data as HC

 

The discussion is not would Bill have great success with an elite QB like Manning or Rodgers or Mahomes. I mean any HC can have success with elite QB which is kind of the point. Bill had the greatest QB to ever play and achieved legendary status. We have 8 seasons of his coaching without Brady and he is sub .500. What that shows is just like every other HC he needs great QB'ing to win.

[CurBeatElite]

13 hours ago, FortheWin said:

There is no cherry picking just the stats as we have a pretty large sample size (8 seasons) of Bill without Brady:

 

With Tom Brady as his starting QB: 224-66
With anybody else as his starting QB: 58-72 = 130 games = approx 8 seasons worth of data as HC
With anybody else as starting QB at Pats: 25-26 = 51 games =approx 3 seasons worth of data as HC

 

The discussion is not would Bill have great success with an elite QB like Manning or Rodgers or Mahomes. I mean any HC can have success with elite QB which is kind of the point. Bill had the greatest QB to ever play and achieved legendary status. We have 8 seasons of his coaching without Brady and he is sub .500. What that shows is just like every other HC he needs great QB'ing to win.

 

The only team close to as talented overall as any of Brady's teams was the team which Matt Cassell led to an 11-5 season.  Without Belichick as his coach is record is 25-40 = 65 games (~4 seasons) winning 38 % of games started.  Pretty clear Belichick can win with a QB is a loser -- so long as he doesn't lose an all-pro OL, 2 all-pro LBs and a borderline pro-bowl S in the same off-season on the team he assembled around Brady.

[FortheWin]

6 hours ago, CurBeatElite said:

 

The only team close to as talented overall as any of Brady's teams was the team which Matt Cassell led to an 11-5 season.  Without Belichick as his coach is record is 25-40 = 65 games (~4 seasons) winning 38 % of games started.  Pretty clear Belichick can win with a QB is a loser -- so long as he doesn't lose an all-pro OL, 2 all-pro LBs and a borderline pro-bowl S in the same off-season on the team he assembled around Brady.

Now you are the one cherry picking. 2008 was a fine season from Belichick. Great roster like you said, went 16-0 the year prior with Brady so a 5 game drop off and no playoffs. But Bill also went 5-13 with Bledsoe a former first overall draft pick who was in his prime. If you want to talk about Bill's best coaching job it was easily 2001 when he was 0-2 with Bledsoe and Brady came in when Bledsoe got hurt and went 14-3 to the championship. That team may be the worst roster to ever win a Superbowl but he had Brady leading the way.

 

Like I said 8 seasons is a huge sample with 3 seasons in NE. He is sub .500 without Brady. If he is able to find a great QB again (I hope he never does LOL) then he will win again.

 

[Curtbrose1]

Brown

Rice

Brady

Manning

 

pretty consensus-y

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, Curtbrose1 said:

Brown

Rice

Brady

Manning

 

pretty consensus-y

That is pretty good. I could roll with that but not having a defensive player on it seems like something is missing. A great one would be Jim Brown, Tom Brady, Peyton, and Lawrence Taylor. I know leaving off Rice seems ridiculous.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Bert Jones

Johnny Unitas

Jim Brown

*Eric Dickerson 

 

* Too many candidates but Dickerson was best RB I can recall in my time and eliminated OJ because of off field issues.

[Curtbrose1]

7 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is pretty good. I could roll with that but not having a defensive player on it seems like something is missing. A great one would be Jim Brown, Tom Brady, Peyton, and Lawrence Taylor. I know leaving off Rice seems ridiculous.

Yeah I see what you're saying but isnt running the offense, ball, catching the hardest stuff? Obv defenders can impact the game massively every time down but defensive players never get props in any award.

[2006Coltsbestever]

28 minutes ago, Curtbrose1 said:

Yeah I see what you're saying but isnt running the offense, ball, catching the hardest stuff? Obv defenders can impact the game massively every time down but defensive players never get props in any award.

Yeah Rice is the GOAT IMO at WR so narrowing it down to 4 players is almost impossible. Leaving Brown off just can't be done either. Brady and Peyton have been the best QB's since the 2000's.

[w87r]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah Rice is the GOAT IMO at WR

You see what he said to Randy Moss?

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, w87r said:

You see what he said to Randy Moss?

Who Rice?

[w87r]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Who Rice?

Yeah

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, w87r said:

Yeah

I am not sure, Moss was a beast though. I personally would take Marv over Moss but Moss is in my top 5.

[w87r]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure, Moss was a beast though. I personally would take Marv over Moss but Moss is in my top 5.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/jerry-rice-responds-to-randy-moss-snub-in-now-deleted-post-you-just-got-mossed-160150793.html

 

 

Moss is a beast but, he said he was the best and Rice posted this and said "You got Moss'd"

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/jerry-rice-responds-to-randy-moss-snub-in-now-deleted-post-you-just-got-mossed-160150793.html

 

 

Moss is a beast but, he said he was the best and Rice posted this and said "You got Moss'd"

5 best WR's I have ever seen are Rice, Marvin, Michael Irvin was the best at catching slants, Moss, and probably Cris Carter. How that 98 Vikings team lost in the NFC Title Game is still puzzling @NFLfan

[2006Coltsbestever]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:07 AM, Barry Sears said:

Jim Brown

Walter Payton

Barry Sanders

Emmett Smith

 

This is NFL Mount Rushmore  

For RB's yes, Eric Dickerson is right there though, he just misses it.

[w87r]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

5 best WR's I have ever seen are Rice, Marvin, Michael Irvin was the best at catching slants, Moss, and probably Cris Carter. How that 98 Vikings team lost in the NFC Title Game is still puzzling @NFLfan

Don't know how you can have a top 5 and not have TO in it.

 

Irvin doesn't belong anywhere near a top 5 list, imo.

 

Minnesota lost because Gary Anderson missed what I believe was his only miss of the season to lose that game.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, w87r said:

Don't know how you can have a top 5 and not have TO in it.

 

Irvin doesn't belong anywhere near a top 5 list, imo.

 

Minnesota lost because Gary Anderson missed what I believe was his only miss of the season to lose that game.

Irvin was better than TO, statistically he wasn't but if you go back and watch the Cowboys during the 90's, he was the heart and soul of that team and caught everything. I will take Irvin anyday. Emmitt was the best player, Troy was the leader, Irvin was the soul. JMO

[w87r]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Irvin was better than TO, statistically he wasn't but if you go back and watch the Cowboys during the 90's, he was the heart and soul of that team and caught everything. I will take Irvin anyday. Emmitt was the best player, Troy was the leader, Irvin was the soul. JMO

I've watched all of that. Irvin isn't on the same planet as TO anyway you want to slice it. Not even close.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, w87r said:

I've watched all of that. Irvin isn't on the same planet as TO anyway you want to slice it. Not even close.

I disagree with you on this, TO didn't have the hands Irvin had. You can go to statistics but Irvin's career got cut short because of injury. Without Irvin those Cowboys teams would not have won 3 SB's. I am sure of that. 

[w87r]

9 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I disagree with you on this, TO didn't have the hands Irvin had. You can go to statistics but Irvin's career got cut short because of injury. Without Irvin those Cowboys teams would not have won 3 SB's. I am sure of that. 

Definitely going to disagree on this one.

 

You're sure of it? Ok.

 

Anyway heres a little nugget for you.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/18/terrell-owens-dropped-passes-as-great-receivers-do/

 

1997: Owens dropped five passes and wasn’t even in the Top 50 in drops. Hall of Famer Michael Irvin was second in the NFL with 11 drops, while Hall of Famer Tim Brown was tied for fourth with nine drops.

 

 

That's just a snippet referencing your guy.(with great hands) Would suggest going through there and checking it out. Like Harrison's 16 drops in 2002.

 

 

TO gets way to much hate. The guy is literally a top 3-5 WR of all time., stats or not. Some don't like him, like Im guessing you, but his abilities are unarguable and Irvin isnt close on any aspect.

[crazycolt1]

For perspective Larry Fitzgerald has the best hands in the NFL. 

Larry has more tackles than he does drops. 

 

 

[w87r]

8 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

For perspective Larry Fitzgerald has the best hands in the NFL. 

Larry has more tackles than he does drops. 

 

 

I agree with this 100%. Definitely one of the GOATs.

 

 

For the record:(My top 5 WR's)

Rice

Moss

Fitzgerald

Owens

Harrison

[NFLfan]

3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

5 best WR's I have ever seen are Rice, Marvin, Michael Irvin was the best at catching slants, Moss, and probably Cris Carter. How that 98 Vikings team lost in the NFC Title Game is still puzzling @NFLfan

 

Don't remind me. I was numb for a couple of days after that loss. 

[Myles]

Ill go with top 4 that I have watched.

 

Peyton Manning

Barry Sanders

Jerry Rice

Reggie White