Nose Tackle Option

[OllyDawes]

Said previously - 2nd round is too early for Ta'amu but 3rd could be too late - should we bite the bullet and just make sure we get him?!

[gspdx]

I cannot buyin on waiting for a NT makes no sense.You must be able to control the o line in a 3-4 how is not having a NT now instead of later even considered.Without the control of the line a 3-4 is useless.You have to have a big NT to take on double teams and he has to be bigger than mookie,can someone with alot more knowledge explain how its possible to run 3-4 without the right linemen.

Because we aren't going to rebuild this team in one year. That's why. You need to have some patience. Peyton's first year was pretty bad. This year, and possibly a few more years, will be rebuilding years.

[bahhummbug]

Because we aren't going to rebuild this team in one year. That's why. You need to have some patience. Peyton's first year was pretty bad. This year, and possibly a few more years, will be rebuilding years.

This isnt about rebuilding in a year its about missing your quarterback of your def.Would you play your off without a quarterback? To play in 3-4 u have to have a big strong NT hes your centerpiece of the def .

[gspdx]

This isnt about rebuilding in a year its about missing your quarterback of your def.Would you play your off without a quarterback? To play in 3-4 u have to have a big strong NT hes your centerpiece of the def .

We played last year without a quarterback...

Also - like I said earlier. We will have a nose tackle. Maybe he will be the Kyle Orton of nose tackles. But we can't afford everything right now. Maybe we will get a good NT with our 2nd pick and we will have weak corners and they will get torched all year. And as a rookie he might still get pushed around and pancaked on a regular basis. Or maybe we will pick up a good corner with our 2nd pick and have an inferior nt this year. Or maybe we will find a resonable nt after the draft that is still out there.

My point is we can't have everything right now.

[Blackhawk4]

I cannot buyin on waiting for a NT makes no sense.You must be able to control the o line in a 3-4 how is not having a NT now instead of later even considered.Without the control of the line a 3-4 is useless.You have to have a big NT to take on double teams and he has to be bigger than mookie,can someone with alot more knowledge explain how its possible to run 3-4 without the right linemen.

Then explain how Jay Ratliff....You don't need a 6'3 340lb to have an effective NT

[Smitto]

The draft is filled with NTs (almost said drug dealers cause of he show I was watching lol) the draft is probably the best place to look for your anchor on defense

[OldSchoolColt]

FA NT's cost too much, not the long term answer, and they all want multiple year contracts. I strongly fill they will grab a NT in round 2 to start, whether he is ready of not, and then grab one much later as a backup. We are rebuilding so develop some young NT's now instead of just playing a FA that definitely wont play for us for more than one year at most. Grab a TE and CB in rounds 3 and 4 and a WR after that. Next year, grab a smokin WR in the 1st with a top 10 pick, etc. based on talent.

[RomanianColtsFan]

John Clayton said on Twitter that Chargers just opened new contract negotions with Garay, so I guess they want him back but they wanted to wait for his price to go down.

[Scott Pennock]

Brandon McKinney will be the "vet" we bring in...............he will be the starter until either Mookie gets up to speed and whatever draft pick(s) we net in the draft!

[GwinnettColt]

Albert Haynesworth! Big strong body who commands a double team, he'd be motivated knowing he'd be part of the rebuilding process here. His contract isn't bad either!

Big guy who has had some good games but I think that he'd be a locker room problem. He'd cost us a lot in penalties because he cannot control his temper.

[HOFClipboardHolder]

Big guy who has had some good games but I think that he'd be a locker room problem. He'd cost us a lot in penalties because he cannot control his temper.

A) he refuses to play in a 3-4, so this is a pointless discussion

B) Getting dumb penalties is an improvement over what he has done since leaving the Titans. The man gives up on the play before the ball is even snapped

[KaylaD]

I was going to say about Haynesworth... he is out there and he only wants to be in a 3-4 if I am not mistaken.

Didn't he pretty much refuse to play in a 3-4 with the Redskins?

[KaylaD]

FA NT's cost too much, not the long term answer, and they all want multiple year contracts. I strongly fill they will grab a NT in round 2 to start, whether he is ready of not, and then grab one much later as a backup. We are rebuilding so develop some young NT's now instead of just playing a FA that definitely wont play for us for more than one year at most. Grab a TE and CB in rounds 3 and 4 and a WR after that. Next year, grab a smokin WR in the 1st with a top 10 pick, etc. based on talent.

I am hoping this is how it goes!....The draft does not have much in the TE dept this year if I am not mistaken so I would rather go NT 2nd round.

[PrincetonTiger]

If TE is not an option

[Creekside]

I cannot buyin on waiting for a NT makes no sense.You must be able to control the o line in a 3-4 how is not having a NT now instead of later even considered.Without the control of the line a 3-4 is useless.You have to have a big NT to take on double teams and he has to be bigger than mookie,can someone with alot more knowledge explain how its possible to run 3-4 without the right linemen.

..............I don't get it either....I still think the Colts front seven in 2012 might be alot more of a 4-3 than a 3-4...........

[GoColts8818]

Because we aren't going to rebuild this team in one year. That's why. You need to have some patience. Peyton's first year was pretty bad. This year, and possibly a few more years, will be rebuilding years.

I agree with that when it comes to spots like wr cb or rb. We have guys who can do those jobs for a year or two if needed. Yes we need better ones but on a team with so many needs they are down the list a bit now. NT on the other hand is at the top of the list with qb because we just don't have one. If we are going to a 3/4 that position must be addresses in some shape or form.

[Superman]

Then explain how Jay Ratliff....You don't need a 6'3 340lb to have an effective NT

The Cowboys 3-4 is different than the Ravens 3-4. Your nose tackle doesn't have to be 340 pounds, but Jay Ratliff is a 1-gap tackle. If you want a 2-gap tackle, which I think Pagano and Manusky prefer, more size is usually preferable. Jay Ratliff (285 pounds) wouldn't work. Shaun Cody (301 pounds) probably wouldn't work. Antonio Johnson (310 pounds) might work size-wise, but the problem is that he's just not good enough. He wouldn't be good enough if he were 20 pounds heavier, either. Just not the player we need.

[GoColts8818]

We played last year without a quarterback...

Also - like I said earlier. We will have a nose tackle. Maybe he will be the Kyle Orton of nose tackles. But we can't afford everything right now. Maybe we will get a good NT with our 2nd pick and we will have weak corners and they will get torched all year. And as a rookie he might still get pushed around and pancaked on a regular basis. Or maybe we will pick up a good corner with our 2nd pick and have an inferior nt this year. Or maybe we will find a resonable nt after the draft that is still out there.

My point is we can't have everything right now.

Hold on we didn't play last year with out a qb on purpose they expected to have Peyton manning when they thought they would lose him for a month they got Kerry Collins who had been a proven starter in this league before hand then they finally went to orlovsky when painter didnt work. So you can say the moves didnt work but the colts didn't try to go into last year with out a qb. It was because Of last year they realized qb was a need now the position is going to be the first overall pick in the draft.

As for the dt spot it's what a 3/4 defense is built around you can't play it without and sure pagano knows they have guys who struggle in a 4/3 defense at dt. That's not going to work so really they have two choices get a nt at some point or don't play a 3/4. This isn't like starting Chris Rucker at cb and saying that's the best we have and the most we can do this off-season. Rucker is still a cb who might develop into that job given time. This would have been like benching painter for mcafee last year then you truly don't have a qb anymore. There is no point to it and it would just be a side show that would get pagano fired very quickly.

[Superman]

Hold on we didn't play last year with out a qb on purpose they expected to have Peyton manning when they thought they would lose him for a month they got Kerry Collins who had been a proven starter in this league before hand then they finally went to orlovsky when painter didnt work. So you can say the moves didnt work but the colts didn't try to go into last year with out a qb. It was because Of last year they realized qb was a need now the position is going to be the first overall pick in the draft.

As for the dt spot it's what a 3/4 defense is built around you can't play it without and sure pagano knows they have guys who struggle in a 4/3 defense at dt. That's not going to work so really they have two choices get a nt at some point or don't play a 3/4. This isn't like starting Chris Rucker at cb and saying that's the best we have and the most we can do this off-season. Rucker is still a cb who might develop into that job given time. This would have been like benching painter for mcafee last year then you truly don't have a qb anymore. There is no point to it and it would just be a side show that would get pagano fired very quickly.

This can go to the extreme, though. Realistically, we could play a three-down alignment on passing downs, and do just fine without a true 3-4 nose tackle. It would be a pressure package. If we want to play a three-down every down, we need a better nose tackle, even if he's a 1-gap guy.

[a06cc]

Some of you really think we're switching to a 3-4 defense and a big bodied NT is needed. That's fine, but I think we're still going to stick with a hybrid type of defense. We're trying to get young and rebuild. I think we're leaving one guy out of the mix and that's Brandon Thompson. He is that tackle we need next to Nevis.

[Superman]

Some of you really think we're switching to a 3-4 defense and a big bodied NT is needed. That's fine, but I think we're still going to stick with a hybrid type of defense. We're trying to get young and rebuild. I think we're leaving one guy out of the mix and that's Brandon Thompson. He is that tackle we need next to Nevis.

No sense in calling it a hybrid if we don't have the nose tackle to make the 3-4 work.

[Dr. T]

The Chargers have now opened up talks with 32-year old Antonio Garay and most likely he will stay in San Diego if a new deal is reasonable. So that means we will probably draft 2 NTs. One early and one late.

[Jason_]

The Cowboys 3-4 is different than the Ravens 3-4. Your nose tackle doesn't have to be 340 pounds, but Jay Ratliff is a 1-gap tackle. If you want a 2-gap tackle, which I think Pagano and Manusky prefer, more size is usually preferable. Jay Ratliff (285 pounds) wouldn't work. Shaun Cody (301 pounds) probably wouldn't work. Antonio Johnson (310 pounds) might work size-wise, but the problem is that he's just not good enough. He wouldn't be good enough if he were 20 pounds heavier, either. Just not the player we need.

A 2-gap may be what Manusky and Pagano prefer, but Pagano was also very clear about working the scheme around the players and not the other way around...not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, etc. So I would assume (yes I know what happens when one assumes lol) that if we have the personnel that is better suited fora 1-gap 3-4/hybrid then that's what they'll go with until they get the personnel that would work for a 2-gap, assuming that's where they ultimately want to end up. So we may wind up running a 1-gap next year but then converting to a 2-gap the following year when they're able to add/develop some players that are more appropriate to a 2-gap scheme.

[Superman]

A 2-gap may be what Manusky and Pagano prefer, but Pagano was also very clear about working the scheme around the players and not the other way around...not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, etc. So I would assume (yes I know what happens when one assumes lol) that if we have the personnel that is better suited fora 1-gap 3-4/hybrid then that's what they'll go with until they get the personnel that would work for a 2-gap, assuming that's where they ultimately want to end up. So we may wind up running a 1-gap next year but then converting to a 2-gap the following year when they're able to add/develop some players that are more appropriate to a 2-gap scheme.

I prefer a 1-gap, personally, especially if you're going to run a hybrid defense, because then more of your pieces are interchangeable.

[coltnorth]

Why do people seem to think Manusky prefers a two gap. Everything I've read states he ran a one gap in San Fran and in San Diego. Can't find anywhere that he has run a two gap.

[Luckitis]

Some of you really think we're switching to a 3-4 defense and a big bodied NT is needed. That's fine, but I think we're still going to stick with a hybrid type of defense. We're trying to get young and rebuild. I think we're leaving one guy out of the mix and that's Brandon Thompson. He is that tackle we need next to Nevis.

A06...don't take this the wrong way, but from what I have seen of Thompson I was not impressed by him at all. He basically got destroyed by one of the worst offensive lines in the Big East in the Orange bowl.

Mike Martin is a high motor guy and just nasty inside and Derek Wolfe even played NT in a 3-4 at Cincy and has the versatilality to play DE with great size. There is depth at NT in this draft, I just hope the Colts don't waste a pick on a guys like Thompson or Worthy they both take to many plays off. A under the radar guy that not many are talking about is John Hughs out of Cincy. The guy was a complete beast last season and would be a bargain in later rounds or as a UDRFA to build depth. IMHO

I have trolled on the board the last few weeks and have really enjoyed the forums so far and look forward to contributing.

[gspdx]

Hold on we didn't play last year with out a qb on purpose they expected to have Peyton manning when they thought they would lose him for a month they got Kerry Collins who had been a proven starter in this league before hand then they finally went to orlovsky when painter didnt work.

I think this proves my point exactly. The guy we need at NT, whoever he is, is probably more expensive than we can afford this year. So we can scramble around and spend money we don't have to try and plug an inferior guy in there that might help and might not, or we can use what we have and target a beast of a big ugly next year when we have money. I just don't think right now we are going to go get our guy for NT. Like you said, the NT is the position the front of this defense is built around (defensive QB like it has been said) and really good ones are hard to come by.

[jtrester]

The NT situation is paralleled with Dallas Clark. The longer Clark goes, the cheaper his next contract will be. If we are pinching pennies, as our Cap estimates show, we maybe holding on for a more favorable contract with a big NT. If we can drive the cost down AND get the NT we need, it will show even more that Grigson knows what he is doing.

A lot can happen between now and the draft.

[Creekside]

as I've said before....a nose tackle is not all that's missing...got to have two big, strong interior linebackers who won't get malled by the O-linemen....I know the Colts will be a 3-4 defense in the near future....just not conviced it will be this year....

[GoColts8818]

I think this proves my point exactly. The guy we need at NT, whoever he is, is probably more expensive than we can afford this year. So we can scramble around and spend money we don't have to try and plug an inferior guy in there that might help and might not, or we can use what we have and target a beast of a big ugly next year when we have money. I just don't think right now we are going to go get our guy for NT. Like you said, the NT is the position the front of this defense is built around (defensive QB like it has been said) and really good ones are hard to come by.

No it doesn't they didn't know they had they had the need for the QB most of last season and as soon as they realized it was a need they tried to address it by by bringing people in again you can say those moves didn't work but just because the QBs were bad last season or hurt doesn't mean they played all year without a QB. Had they done that they would have started someone like Pat McAfee at QB who isn't a QB and they never did that. They know in order to run a 3-4 they must have a NT and they don't have one. They would just be ignoring the core peace to a 3-4 defense and I am sorry I don't see that happening if they are serious about wanting to go to a 3-4. I agree with you that we can't have everything this off-season. WIth that said that they also can't ingore the peace a 3-4 defense is built around if they don't have one on the roster. This isn't some add on that will make the 3-4 run better this is something you must have in order to run a 3-4 defenese if they want to run it. It would be like trying to race an Indy Car without a driver. You can build the best Indy Car in the world but if you have no one to drive it it's never going to work.

[Superman]

Why do people seem to think Manusky prefers a two gap. Everything I've read states he ran a one gap in San Fran and in San Diego. Can't find anywhere that he has run a two gap.

I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. Might be wrong about this. But my recollection tells me that the Niners ran a 2-gap when Manusky was there. And Wade Phillips put together a 1-gap in San Diego, and Ron Rivera continued it, but when Manusky took over, he implemented more 2-gap principles. Those changes affected players like Antonio Garay, which affected the performance of players like Shaun Phillips. The Chargers go from 1st in total defense (yards) to 16th, and from 10th in scoring defense to 22nd.

I'm going to do some more looking around and see what else I can find about the changes Manusky made. If he and Pagano prefer a 1-gap, that's great news. I think it makes more sense for our team, especially if we're going to switch back and forth between a three-down and four-down set. It would get the best out of players like Nevis and Mathews. So I guess I hope I'm wrong.

[NewEra]

I think if we really needed a nt we would have one by now. Maybe they see something we don't with the guys we have. Or plan on addressing and adding to it via draft. Maybe it was just our scheme is why our dl players played like they have. They might see something in Johnson or others. We see they have went out and got guys we needed. So if nt was a huge concern I think they would have made the moves if they saw an upgrade.

[GoColts8818]

I think if we really needed a nt we would have one by now. Maybe they see something we don't with the guys we have. Or plan on addressing and adding to it via draft. Maybe it was just our scheme is why our dl players played like they have. They might see something in Johnson or others. We see they have went out and got guys we needed. So if nt was a huge concern I think they would have made the moves if they saw an upgrade.

There were reports they went after the guy who resigned with Miami. Just because you have a need doesn't mean you just go out and sign anyone and it doesn't mean just because you want someone they come to you. So just because the Colts haven't made a move doesn't mean they don't think it's a need.

I think there is a very good chance they are going to try to nab one or two in the draft and if they don't make a run at either a guy cut before June 1st cuts or a guy who is still out there in free agency as his price comes down.

[gspdx]

No it doesn't they didn't know they had they had the need for the QB most of last season and as soon as they realized it was a need they tried to address it by by bringing people in again you can say those moves didn't work but just because the QBs were bad last season or hurt doesn't mean they played all year without a QB. Had they done that they would have started someone like Pat McAfee at QB who isn't a QB and they never did that. They know in order to run a 3-4 they must have a NT and they don't have one. They would just be ignoring the core peace to a 3-4 defense and I am sorry I don't see that happening if they are serious about wanting to go to a 3-4. I agree with you that we can't have everything this off-season. WIth that said that they also can't ingore the peace a 3-4 defense is built around if they don't have one on the roster. This isn't some add on that will make the 3-4 run better this is something you must have in order to run a 3-4 defenese if they want to run it. It would be like trying to race an Indy Car without a driver. You can build the best Indy Car in the world but if you have no one to drive it it's never going to work.

We have NTs. Maybe not NTs suited to be a great NT in a 3-4, but we will have a NT. I just think everyone needs to relax on this. Different QBs play better in different systems. It's not like we will play without a NT. We might play with a NT that is better suited for a different system. I just feel since we are trying to build a better team we can wait until we have moremoney to find a great NT rather than wasting money on a stop gap measure now - like the Kerry Collins situation. That is the point of how this helps to defend my argument.

And to further the Indy car scenario. Just going and finding an average guy to drive that great car will probably mean you will end up putting that huge investment and that great car into the wall. It might be better to wait until you have the right driver to put that car on the track.

[Warhawk]

We have NTs. Maybe not NTs suited to be a great NT in a 3-4, but we will have a NT. I just think everyone needs to relax on this. Different QBs play better in different systems. It's not like we will play without a NT. We might play with a NT that is better suited for a different system. I just feel since we are trying to build a better team we can wait until we have moremoney to find a great NT rather than wasting money on a stop gap measure now - like the Kerry Collins situation. That is the point of how this helps to defend my argument.

And to further the Indy car scenario. Just going and finding an average guy to drive that great car will probably mean you will end up putting that huge investment and that great car into the wall. It might be better to wait until you have the right driver to put that car on the track.

There's nothing wrong with a stop gap measure if it truly is temporary. Can't understand the argument that we shouldn't sign an average NT to, potentially, a 1-year deal (or a deal with an option after 1 year) when we can wait a year and sign a different guy to a multi-year deal. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Nothing wrong with signing a guy for the short term while actively looking for a long-term solution.

[GoColts8818]

We have NTs. Maybe not NTs suited to be a great NT in a 3-4, but we will have a NT. I just think everyone needs to relax on this. Different QBs play better in different systems. It's not like we will play without a NT. We might play with a NT that is better suited for a different system. I just feel since we are trying to build a better team we can wait until we have moremoney to find a great NT rather than wasting money on a stop gap measure now - like the Kerry Collins situation. That is the point of how this helps to defend my argument.

And to further the Indy car scenario. Just going and finding an average guy to drive that great car will probably mean you will end up putting that huge investment and that great car into the wall. It might be better to wait until you have the right driver to put that car on the track.

We have NTs who get eaten up in a 4-3 where they go one one-on-one with guys. They will get killed a 3-4 where they face double teams. No we don't have a 3-4 NT. In a system like a cover-2 4-3 defense you can get by without good DTs, they are something that you want and are nice to have but aren't a must have. The Colts have proven that. In a 3-4 though that changes. It's very much what a 3-4 is built around. You have to have that huge guy in the middle who eats up space and who can take a double team or else the rest of the 3-4 defense doesn't work. If the Colts want to go 3-4 they have to get better NTs, there is no way around it and I am sorry having smaller guys who can't do the job in a 4-3 defense is not the answer either. It's like trying to build a passing team wihout a QB or building a running team without a running back. It doesn't matter what you put in place around them if you don't have one who is good enough it's not going to work. What the Colts have now isn't good enough. This isn't like adding a running back to this team or a CB which are needs too but we have guys on the roster who can probably do the job if we can't get one. We don't have DTs on this team that can do the job.

As for the Indy car thing yes if you can find an average guy that's fine. That's my point the Colts don't have an average guys. They have guys who struggled in a 4-3 system because they were two small. Now you are going to ask them to play in a system where there size is going to matter more and where they will be more of the focus of the defense. What do you think is going to happen? No they don't have to have Ngata but they need more than what they have.

[The Peytonator]

I just hope we get Ta'Amu. He looks like a future stalwart at NT and if we're going to suck as bad as everyone says, we might as well do so with the future at the position locked up.

[gspdx]

There's nothing wrong with a stop gap measure if it truly is temporary. Can't understand the argument that we shouldn't sign an average NT to, potentially, a 1-year deal (or a deal with an option after 1 year) when we can wait a year and sign a different guy to a multi-year deal. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Nothing wrong with signing a guy for the short term while actively looking for a long-term solution.

I'm ok with that. But I don't want us to overpay for an average NT that is available in FA just because we need one. If we pay an average guy average money, fine. But I don't see us getting our NT of the future this year unless it's through the draft. And then he will be young and would probably get pushed around too.

But I'm not going to worry about it because I'm sure they have a plan - even if it's a plan we don't like this year. Takes time to rebuild.

[Gavin]

Maybe they plan on getting one in the draft and then after that see whats left in the free agent pool

[Gavin]

Said previously - 2nd round is too early for Ta'amu but 3rd could be too late - should we bite the bullet and just make sure we get him?!

well if Poe does in fact go where everyone seems to think he will the first round. then that would only leave Ta'amu and Baptiste for run clogging but I say thats to early for Baptiste so I would go Ta'amu

However my ideal situation if Poe was gone and IF it was a lock that Ta'amu would last into the third round which I think he will then I would go

1 Luck

2 Gilmore

3 Ta'amu IF he lasts to the the third round

I think anyway we look at it colts will have to do some reaching