When Will Rivers Pass Marino?

[shasta519]

2 hours ago, Myles said:

He may break the top 4 in 1 season, but that is even questionable.  

I just cannot agree with 4-6 players at any position at the same time being HOF material.  Rivers was probably around the 6th to 8th best QB of his era.  

 

Brady

Manning

Rodgers

Big Ben

Brees

Romo?

Luck?

 

QB is a unique position though. The good ones play for a very long time.
 

It’s sort of like SPs in MLB.

 

And that could be good or bad...depending on how you see it.

 

Some might refer to that 2005-2015 *decade* as the era of the QB...right when the game started to shift. 

 

So I think there is room for 6 or so guys from then. 
 

I see Rivers as the Mike Mussina of the NFL...if you will.

 

 

[LockeDown]

51 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Do you think Ryan Fitzpatrick, who has thrown for more TDs and will probably pass Aikman in yards this year should be in the HOF?

Many people don’t have Aikman ranked that high. If he played for Cleveland I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be a HOF QB.

[Riversrun]

MPhil never had a great Oline .He did have great skill players but he never had a good coach or GM or Owner his best coach was 1 year of Marty shotenheimer and he was a fumble away from beating Brady to go to a Super Bowl ....they lost 2 games that year .....they fired Marty three weeks later ....next coach ? Norve Turner the worst Headcoach maybe ever next A rookie milky toast wet behind the ears nobody .Then a RB coach good ole never head coached over his head Always outcoached Anthony overrated soon to be exposed Lynn .Philip Rivers is the greatest QB to ever play in SD he’s highly underrated go watch the miles of Highlights and comebacks he’s  a second ballot HOFER easy .

[Lancer1]

3 hours ago, shastamasta said:

QB is a unique position though. The good ones play for a very long time.
 

It’s sort of like SPs in MLB.

 

And that could be good or bad...depending on how you see it.

 

Some might refer to that 2005-2015 *decade* as the era of the QB...right when the game started to shift. 

 

So I think there is room for 6 or so guys from then. 
 

I see Rivers as the Mike Mussina of the NFL...if you will.

 

 

Mike Mussina had a pretty good career, some would argue worthy of Cooperstown but the fact that he’s in and Curt Schilling is not, is truly a disgrace!

 

“Moose” was a 5 time All Star who never made it to the World Series, Schilling was a 6 time All Star who went to the Fall Classic with 3 different teams, won it with 2 of them (and was the NLCS MVP with the team that didn’t win) and was named co-MVP of 1 WS, sharing it with Hall of Famer Randy Johnson.

[Lancer1]

38 minutes ago, Riversrun said:

MPhil never had a great Oline .He did have great skill players but he never had a good coach or GM or Owner his best coach was 1 year of Marty shotenheimer and he was a fumble away from beating Brady to go to a Super Bowl ....they lost 2 games that year .....they fired Marty three weeks later ....next coach ? Norve Turner the worst Headcoach maybe ever next A rookie milky toast wet behind the ears nobody .Then a RB coach good ole never head coached over his head Always outcoached Anthony overrated soon to be exposed Lynn .Philip Rivers is the greatest QB to ever play in SD he’s highly underrated go watch the miles of Highlights and comebacks he’s  a second ballot HOFER easy .

The O-line back during the glory days of LT running wild was pretty good, but one by one they all left and the line has struggled ever since. I think AJ Smith was a decent GM, he took over a team that had earned the top pick in the Draft twice within 4 seasons, and built them to a team that appeared in the Divisional round of the playoffs 4 years in a row. With regards to the coaching however, you make a very good point – most of the other QBs in the discussion for Canton, and many who are already inducted or headed there have enjoyed Hall of Fame worthy coaching – heck, Dan Marino had back-to-back HoF coaches in Don Shula followed by Jimmy Johnson!

 

As for Rivers & Canton, I maintain the belief that he gets in, likely on the 1st ballot even if he never takes another snap. As mentioned in the beginning of this thread, he will likely end this season with the #5 All Time records in career passing yardage & touchdowns and when he concludes his career in the top 5 of several offensive categories, I think that’ll be enough to earn induction. I think he’s like Steve Young (minus the running ability) in the sense that 1 ring, in addition to all his other stats would make him a no-doubt 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

[Coffeedrinker]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

He wont pass the popularity part of the process. 

Thanks, but that is not what I asked.  I asked you if you think Fitzpatrick should be in the HOF.  The reason I'm asking you is because of the comment about SBs should not play a part in HOF.

4 hours ago, LockeDown said:

Many people don’t have Aikman ranked that high. If he played for Cleveland I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be a HOF QB.

Aikmann is a HOF QB, how other people have him ranked is a moot point.

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 hours ago, Superfly said:

I’m not saying all those guys should get in, but I’m implying the selection process is still flawed and biased. 
 

I don’t think Championship’s are needed to get into the HOF, while others do. 
 

I also, don’t think QBs like J. Plunkett or P. Simms with multiple SB wins should be in, and either are in the HOF. 

 

And stats unfortunately are a benchmark for getting in the past 25 years! 
 

 

Technically Phil Simms only has 1 ring as a starter, Hostetler won the other as a starter. Plunkett does have 2. Plunkett is the only QB in NFL history that has started in 2 SB's that won those and not be in the HOF. We all know Brady is automatically in. Peyton and Ben will get in as 2-time winners. Eli will IMO as well because both of his SB wins were over the best franchise of the last 20 years.

 

2-time or more SB winners as starters by era:

Starr won 2 = (1966, 67) he is in

Griese won 2 = (1972, 73) he is in

Staubach won 2 = (1971, 77) he is in

Bradshaw won 4 = (1974, 75, 78, 79) he is in

Plunkett won 2 = (1980, 83) Not in

Montana won 4 = (1981, 84, 88, 89) he is in

Aikman won 3 = (1992, 93, 95) he is in

Elway won 2 = (1997, 98) he is in

Big Ben won 2 = (2005, 08) he will get in

Eli Manning won 2 = (2007, 2011) he will get in

Peyton Manning won 2 = (2006, 2015) he will get in

Brady won 6 = (2001, 03, 04, 2014, 2016, 2018) he will get in

 

Only 12 QB's have started and have won 2 or more SB's as a starter. Assuming the last 4 QB's get in, that means if you win 2 SB's or more as a starter your chances of getting into the HOF are 91.7%. Whether Plunkett deserves it or not, not sure but he will be the only QB to accomplish that feat that won't be in. So my point is if you win multiple SB's despite your stats you will get in with Plunkett being the 1 exception.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Thanks, but that is not what I asked.  I asked you if you think Fitzpatrick should be in the HOF.  The reason I'm asking you is because of the comment about SBs should not play a part in HOF.

Aikmann is a HOF QB, how other people have him ranked is a moot point.

Super bowls are a team accomplishment. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Super bowls are a team accomplishment. 

They are but if you look at Bradshaw's stats and Aikman's stats neither are HOF worthy. They are in because they won multiple SB's. That is just how the media looks at things. Not saying it is right but that is how it is.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

They are but if you look at Bradshaw's stats and Aikman's stats neither are HOF worthy. They are in because they won multiple SB's. That is just how the media looks at things. Not saying it is right but that is how it is.

In Bradshaw's case I think the era played a part.

Bradshaw after all was the MVP of two of those super bowls and played in an era when the QB didn't put up huge numbers. The QBs were not protected like they were china. 

Speaking of not being protected that was Aikman's problem. He was pounded out of the league physically. 

[Lancer1]

16 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Super bowls are a team accomplishment. 

They certainly are, and sometimes a quarterback can do enough to win, but doesn’t because one or more of their teammates fail at a crucial time – a good example of this is Superbowl XXV in which Jim Kelly had the Bills poised to win, but Scott Norwood’s 48 yard field goal attempt sailed wide right and Buffalo lost by a single point.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

In Bradshaw's case I think the era played a part.

Bradshaw after all was the MVP of two of those super bowls and played in an era when the QB didn't put up huge numbers. The QBs were not protected like they were china. 

Speaking of not being protected that was Aikman's problem. He was pounded out of the league physically. 

I think everything should be factored in (stats, wins, longevity, MVP's) but most people know by the eye test who belongs and who doesn't that have watched for decades. I think Moon definitely belongs and he never won a SB.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Lancer1 said:

They certainly are, and sometimes a quarterback can do enough to win, but doesn’t because one or more of their teammates fail at a crucial time – a good example of this is Superbowl XXV in which Jim Kelly had the Bills poised to win, but Scott Norwood’s 48 yard field goal attempt sailed wide right and Buffalo lost by a single point.

Yeah, Jim Kelly doesn't have a ring basically because of a missed FG. Man that would stink being in that spot when that kicked missed. Rivers will probably get into the HOF, he has the stats and some playoff wins. If he had a SB win it would be automatic at this point.

[Lancer1]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think everything should be factored in (stats, wins, longevity, MVP's) but most people know by the eye test who belongs and who doesn't that have watched for decades. I think Moon definitely belongs and he never won a SB.

That’s a pretty good argument for Philip, who hasn’t missed a start in 14 years & counting, and played in the 2007 AFC Championship game with a torn ACL.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think everything should be factored in (stats, wins, longevity, MVP's) but most people know by the eye test who belongs and who doesn't that have watched for decades. I think Moon definitely belongs and he never won a SB.

QBs are in a class all their own and I understand that. 

With that said you can make a case for Moon and Plunkett not being in the HOF. 

Plunkett was a cast off from the Patriots and the 49ers before taking the Raiders to the super bowl two times. 

[Coffeedrinker]

26 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Super bowls are a team accomplishment. 

No doubt, so are wins and losses.  So do you think Fitzpatrick should be in the HOF since he has more TDs and soon to be more yards than Aikman, who is in the HOF?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

QBs are in a class all their own and I understand that. 

With that said you can make a case for Moon and Plunkett not being in the HOF. 

Plunkett was a cast off from the Patriots and the 49ers before taking the Raiders to the super bowl two times. 

I honestly think Plunkett deserves to be in. His stats weren't anything special but he has the 2 SB wins.

2 minutes ago, Lancer1 said:

That’s a pretty good argument for Philip, who hasn’t missed a start in 14 years & counting, and played in the 2007 AFC Championship game with a torn ACL.

I agree. I see Rivers getting in.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No doubt, so are wins and losses.  So do you think Fitzpatrick should be in the HOF since he has more TDs and soon to be more yards than Aikman, who is in the HOF?

 

You seem to want to put me on the spot so what do you think? 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No doubt, so are wins and losses.  So do you think Fitzpatrick should be in the HOF since he has more TDs and soon to be more yards than Aikman, who is in the HOF?

Fitz = a No for me, see this is why eye test is important and winning is real important as well as stats. Everything just can't be based off of stats.

[Myles]

13 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Maybe take a look at the other side of the coin?

Should Rivers be snubbed because he wasn't better than Manning or Brady? 

Two of the greatest QBs to have ever played the game? 

Rivers has been or better than Eli Manning his whole career but because of no super bowl wins he is not looked at in the same light. 

 

 

 

I don't think Rivers or Eli should be in the HOF.

I admit that I put tougher restrictions on getting in.   I know that doesn't matter because I don't have a say in it.   But it doesn't change my opinion on if I think someone SHOULD get into the HOF.  

I absolutely think comparing to other players playing the same position in the era you play in should be factored in.  I would never put a person in the HOF unless they were top 3 at their position for at least a few years.  Rivers has been a very good QB, but I'm not a fan of the Hall of Very Good.   

[crazycolt1]

49 minutes ago, Myles said:

I don't think Rivers or Eli should be in the HOF.

I admit that I put tougher restrictions on getting in.   I know that doesn't matter because I don't have a say in it.   But it doesn't change my opinion on if I think someone SHOULD get into the HOF.  

I absolutely think comparing to other players playing the same position in the era you play in should be factored in.  I would never put a person in the HOF unless they were top 3 at their position for at least a few years.  Rivers has been a very good QB, but I'm not a fan of the Hall of Very Good.   

Fair enough, I will respect your opinion even if I don't entirely agree with it. 

Personally I don't think what other players did should have anything to do with it. 

But it's OK, we all have different opinions and point of views. It's all good. 

[Coffeedrinker]

7 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

You seem to want to put me on the spot so what do you think? 

I'm not trying to put on you on the spot, you just claimed that SB wins should not matter in HOF,   So I just asked, if SBs don't matter, then should Fitz get in since he has some better stats than Aikman, who is a HOF QB

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I'm not trying to put on you on the spot, you just claimed that SB wins should not matter in HOF,   So I just asked, if SBs don't matter, then should Fitz get in since he has some better stats than Aikman, who is a HOF QB

Decide that for yourself. 

There is a 46 person committee that is polled three times before they decide who gets in. 

[Coffeedrinker]

7 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Fitz = a No for me, see this is why eye test is important and winning is real important as well as stats. Everything just can't be based off of stats.

Yeah, I don't know what my criteria is exactly, but Fitz definitely does not meet it.  For a QB, a winning percentage of 50% or greater is a must.  And if the win percentage is below 60%, there would have to be some other huge factors to be considered.  The teams needs to be a consistent playoff contender for multiple years.  With Manning you knew the Colts were going to be in the playoffs, Montana, Elway, Marino, Kelly, Brady, Rivers, the list can go on but with those guys the fans knew, barring something horrendous, their team was going to be in the playoff hunt.  Being the Day 1 starter for whatever team you play for for the majority of a career.

 

Like you say, it's an eye test thing as well.

[Coffeedrinker]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Decide that for yourself. 

There is a 46 person committee that is polled three times before they decide who gets in. 

I have decided for myself. I'm just asking for your opinion my man.  I'm not sure why you are so afraid to voice your opinion on that question when you voice your opinion on so many other things.  I'm not trying to get a gotcha or anything, I was just curious what you thought.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I have decided for myself. I'm just asking for your opinion my man.  I'm not sure why you are so afraid to voice your opinion on that question when you voice your opinion on so many other things.  I'm not trying to get a gotcha or anything, I was just curious what you thought.

I really don't have a thought on the matter. 

I have already stated that what other players have done should not effect how a player is voted on. 

Other than that, I really don't care who gets in or who don't. 

No matter who gets in there will be fans who will get POed because it don't match their opinion. 

[AwesomeAustin]

It’s hard to judge in this era.  Rivers has put up good numbers but is it bc he is an all time great or a product of today’s NFL? Stats are inflated but he can only play in the era he can play in. As far as Super Bowls, during Rivers careers the Pats went to the SB 8x, Peyton 4x, Steelers twice and Ravens and Chiefs each once. So for 12 of those years he kinda had a pass bc Peyton and Tom are hands down all time greats.  But the other side is you have to beat the competition to be the best. 
 

Personally, I don’t think he is HOF worthy but I don’t make the decisions. I don’t think he made the playoffs half the time.  If he gets in bc his stats are top five all time I will understand.  If he doesn’t bc of other factors I will understand. I just don’t think he is a top 5 QB of this generation and that alone should keep him out.  Not bc he put up a lot of stats bc he was playing on bad teams that were always behind. 
 

One thing can not be debated.  He has always been a really good franchise QB you can build a team around.  I hope we do well with him

[Myles]

1 hour ago, AwesomeAustin said:

It’s hard to judge in this era.  Rivers has put up good numbers but is it bc he is an all time great or a product of today’s NFL? Stats are inflated but he can only play in the era he can play in. As far as Super Bowls, during Rivers careers the Pats went to the SB 8x, Peyton 4x, Steelers twice and Ravens and Chiefs each once. So for 12 of those years he kinda had a pass bc Peyton and Tom are hands down all time greats.  But the other side is you have to beat the competition to be the best. 
 

Personally, I don’t think he is HOF worthy but I don’t make the decisions. I don’t think he made the playoffs half the time.  If he gets in bc his stats are top five all time I will understand.  If he doesn’t bc of other factors I will understand. I just don’t think he is a top 5 QB of this generation and that alone should keep him out.  Not bc he put up a lot of stats bc he was playing on bad teams that were always behind. 
 

One thing can not be debated.  He has always been a really good franchise QB you can build a team around.  I hope we do well with him

I understand my thinking does not in any way impact the voting.  

 

I would only use stats in a way that compares them to others of the same era.  Heck, Stafford will be top 4-5 in passing yards by the time he retires.  I don't think he is HOF worthy, but he will get in because he played in the pass happy NFL time.  

[NannyMcafee]

23 hours ago, FortheWin said:

Not really. Rings are just weighted more for QBs. They are not they only criteria otherwise Marino would not be in there. But Marino was transcendent. I think QBs without any rings have to have that type of career to get consideration for the most part. I don't think it is necessarily right but that is what has historically happened.

 

I mean Eli will get in for his 2 rings alone while the rest of his career was sub-par and often times awful.

 

It's crazy to think that without that defense Eli would be without any rings. 

[NannyMcafee]

2 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

It’s hard to judge in this era.  Rivers has put up good numbers but is it bc he is an all time great or a product of today’s NFL? Stats are inflated but he can only play in the era he can play in. As far as Super Bowls, during Rivers careers the Pats went to the SB 8x, Peyton 4x, Steelers twice and Ravens and Chiefs each once. So for 12 of those years he kinda had a pass bc Peyton and Tom are hands down all time greats.  But the other side is you have to beat the competition to be the best. 
 

Personally, I don’t think he is HOF worthy but I don’t make the decisions. I don’t think he made the playoffs half the time.  If he gets in bc his stats are top five all time I will understand.  If he doesn’t bc of other factors I will understand. I just don’t think he is a top 5 QB of this generation and that alone should keep him out.  Not bc he put up a lot of stats bc he was playing on bad teams that were always behind. 
 

One thing can not be debated.  He has always been a really good franchise QB you can build a team around.  I hope we do well with him

 

Is "fame" the ultimate reasoning to get voted in? It shouldn't be about stats. Its should be the fact that when you hear that name you know some serious % is about to go down on Sunday. Whoever it is, he should strike some kind of fear into you. 

 

Maybe that's just me. To me, that is the ultimate NFL athlete and the only one deserving of the HOF. But you know. I'm not in charge. 

[AwesomeAustin]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

I understand my thinking does not in any way impact the voting.  

 

I would only use stats in a way that compares them to others of the same era.  Heck, Stafford will be top 4-5 in passing yards by the time he retires.  I don't think he is HOF worthy, but he will get in because he played in the pass happy NFL time.  

Stafford, Ryan, Rivers and Wilson are QBs I think have always been 2nd tier To me.  You absolutely keep them as your QB and build the team around them.   To me they are just really good players but not generational QBs that will be remembered outside their fan base 30 years from now.  When Luck was playing I put him into this same group.  They are the Boomer Esiason and Phil Simms type QBs. Darn good players but not even close to the best.  
 

Saying that I’m on the fence about Rothlisberger.  I think he should get in bc he has the stats and beat the best.  

[Beardog]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:46 AM, shastamasta said:

 

Once you start letting in guys like Tarkenton...you have to let in a guy like Rivers. I know it's different eras...but Rivers will have the counting stats AND just better numbers than all but a handful of QBs all time.

What everyone is forgetting folks like Warren Moon ran a special offense with Houston.  It shouldn’t just be judged on SB’s or as someone said Brad Johnson would be in.  If you’ve been a prolific player or really stood out guys like a Junior Seau.  Being tops in the league is more important than SB’s.  Folks like Marc Levy getting to four SB’s despite losing them all.   

 

[PrideOfAthens17]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:13 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Bradshaw played in an era when... the QBs were not protected like they were china.

 

After his first two years as a starter, when the Chargers did have good offensive lines, neither has Philip been. So that's 12 straight years where he's produced at the same levels as the other top quarterbacks in the league, but at a completely different degree of difficulty than pretty much all of them. And unless you've watched every snap of his entire career, you're not qualified to tell me otherwise. My apologies, as I know that makes me sound like a jerk there, but it's the truth.

 

Now, if that means nothing to you, then by all means, continue on saying that Philip hasn't been every bit as good as any other quarterback of his era. But I know better.

[Lancer1]

On 5/11/2020 at 2:11 PM, PrideOfAthens17 said:

As to the poll question, going by just his career pattern, he'll eclipse the yardage mark MUCH faster than the TD mark.

 

Now watch him make me a liar .

 

Go get 'em Philip.

You sure nailed this prediction, he passed Marino in passing yards in Week 10, and now he stands poised to catch and/or eclipse the passing touchdowns about a month & ½  later than surpassing the yardage mark.

 

Dan Marino is originally from Pittsburgh –  he was born & raised there, and attended both high school & college in the city. I’m pretty sure one of the only reasons the Steelers didn’t draft him out of college in 1983, is because they still had Terry Bradshaw although his career was almost over.

 

With just 1 touchdown pass next weekend in Pittsburgh, Philip Rivers will tie Marino for #5 all time with 420 – with 2 of them, he passes this NFL legend and wouldn’t it be fitting to accomplish the feat right in the man’s hometown, while playing against the team he undoubtedly grew up rooting for!