Why Former Colt Pierre Garcon Will Not Do Well With The Skins

[Ohio Colt]

I don't think the comparison is a good one between Harper and Garcon.

That said, we can find Garcon comparables out there that we can plug in to replace his skill set and numbers. Eddie Royal, heck there's a kid in the draft: Owusu, or Ryan Broyles

[Andy]

I don't think the comparison is a good one between Harper and Garcon.

That said, we can find Garcon comparables out there that we can plug in to replace his skill set and numbers. Eddie Royal, heck there's a kid in the draft: Owusu, or Ryan Broyles

Why is it not a good comparison. Both are pure deep threats and are used to playing as #2 receivers behind an all star #1. Both played for teams that have similar offenses and both got big #1 WR deals when switching to other teams. It's eerily similar if anything.

[pac2]

The guy had 900+ yards with Kerry Collins, Curtis Painter and Dan Orvlosky (granted he played pretty well towards the end). Also dont forget probably one of the most clueless coaching in the NFL. I think he'll be ok with RG3 and shany.

The only reason he got those yards was because Curtis Painter never threw to his left, where Reggie lined up. And he dropped SO many passes. Another example of Washington's bone head moves. Overpay for mediocre players.

[Brylock]

He had more drops in 2010.

I dont get the hate for Garcon...

I like Garcon. I just don't think he's worth $8,000,000.00 per year let alone the contract that Dan Snyder gave him. If that's what he wanted in Indy, it's good that he's gone.

[bWild]

This is the reason why the Skins would not be a good fit for Garcon.

Number 2 receivers are sometimes meant to be number 2 receivers. They get the #2 cornerbacks and they're not as worrisome as the #1 receiver who teams tend to plan against. Pierre Garcon has played as the #2 WR for the Colts the past 2.5 seasons. He's been a very good deep threat for many, but has been too inconsistent at times. Does this remind you of someone...

...Alvin Harper

Alvin Harper of the Cowboys was one of the best #2 receivers back in the 90's with Michael Irvin being the #1. He was so good because he was the #2 wide receiver and Irvin was a more worrisome threat. Every team defended against Smith, Irvin and Aikman. Nothing about Harper, but Harper ended up having several good seasons getting to 850 yards in one season.

One thing Alvin Harper and Garcon had in common was the fact that they were deep threats. Deep threats are #2 WR, and you'll never find a pure deep threat receiver be a number 1 WR, except Desean Jackson. Mike Wallace, Vincent Jackson and Percy Harvin are reliable receivers too with good hands. Deep threats that are #2 dont transition well to the #1 receiver spot in a new different system.

Now that Garcon is with the Redskins, he must adapt to a new lifestyle. He's in a city where the spotlight is always on that division. They have a new QB, who may not pan out (but he probably will). That team in general looks like it's declining and not getting better, since some of their FAs are not coming back. They play Mike Shannahan's run heavy variation of the West Coast offense. It's going to be tough for a deep threat to become the new #1 reliable guy playing in a new offense, new city, new coach and a QB who's going to be a rookie. These are all signs that he will probably not pan out with the Skins.

I love ya Pierre, but not the best choice to join the Skins.

Umm, hello! Marvin Harrison!

[Andy]

Umm, hello! Marvin Harrison!

what about him, he's played with one team his whole career. He was a great deep threat and a reliable receiver. He's a top 5 WR of all time.

[spoonfish]

what about him, he's played with one team his whole career. He was a great deep threat and a reliable receiver. He's a top 5 WR of all time.

We can debate this in another thread if deemed appropriate, but he might just barely make top 10 WR of all time. I like Harrison for what he did on and off the field, but let's not go overboard.

[dgambill]

, thanks I know how to play receiver. I've said this before many times, I played wide receiver in University for the McGill Redman and was top 6 in YAC and TDs in CIS history and top 4 in yards. I was then offered a practice squad contract with the Omaha Nighthawks, and I played there for 3 weeks before getting cut. I know how to play receiver. I'll tell you what receiver is about: catching, route running, speed, physicality, explosition and smarts. Those are the very important traits of a great wide receiver. Now about Garcon...

He still got to 950 yards which is very impressive, but you have to look at the fact that he got 275 of those yards on 7 catches. I'm saying he's a deep threat receiver, and deep threat receiver don't work well as #1. What's more impressive to you, 8 catches for 150 yards or 2 catches for 150 yards. 8 catches cause he says more about the receiver.

While I agree with you that the Redskins way overpaid those stats your talking about both mean crap and mean something lol..I agree stats don't tell you the whole story. Better stats would be yac, catches that resulted in a first down, catches of greater than 20 yards (in the air), catches per targeted. There are so many things you can tell by stats but those stats you just mentioned might say well those yards are all on a few plays...well that tells me he has big play ability. He is a deep threat or one that is likely to make a big play. Point is they may have possession receivers but they may need someone to take it the distance. All in all Garcon does have big play ability as we have seen him take screens and quick slants and break tackles. He is very strong and was our fastest player easily. He was not our best receiver though I definately think that. Shannahan runs an offense where the qb moves a lot and looks for quick receivers over the top and those that take quick short passes and get yac. They also have to run block. These are Garcons best abilities so at least on the surface this is a good sign....however I think the contract is very much inflated.

[Andy]

While I agree with you that the Redskins way overpaid those stats your talking about both mean crap and mean something lol..I agree stats don't tell you the whole story. Better stats would be yac, catches that resulted in a first down, catches of greater than 20 yards (in the air), catches per targeted. There are so many things you can tell by stats but those stats you just mentioned might say well those yards are all on a few plays...well that tells me he has big play ability. He is a deep threat or one that is likely to make a big play. Point is they may have possession receivers but they may need someone to take it the distance. All in all Garcon does have big play ability as we have seen him take screens and quick slants and break tackles. He is very strong and was our fastest player easily. He was not our best receiver though I definately think that. Shannahan runs an offense where the qb moves a lot and looks for quick receivers over the top and those that take quick short passes and get yac. They also have to run block. These are Garcons best abilities so at least on the surface this is a good sign....however I think the contract is very much inflated.

Ok...

Garcon is being paid #1 receiver money, no one on that receiving core is making as much as him. With that being said, they wouldn't pay him that money to take the role as the #2 receiver. The #2 receiver in Shanahan's offense is ideally the deep threat. Look at Rod Smith, he was a deep threat with the Broncos in Shanahan's years and he was the #2 receiver. The #1 receiver on most teams, including Mike's team is the reliable consistently good handed target. Look at Ed McAffrey with Mike Shanahan with the Broncos in the 90's early 2000's. Garcon's big play ability does not fit the #1 receiver spot on Mike's system, plain and system, and he won't change for him after 15 years of it working, especially for a receiver like Pierre. Garcon is good at slants, and the deep plays. He's a mediocre route runner and he's an average run blocker. He ain't no Hines Ward. He fits that team as a #2 receiver, and not as #1.

[The Peytonator]

As far as I know, Washington still has Santana Moss. A WR tandem of Santana Moss, Pierre Garcon, and Josh Morgan, does look pretty solid for RG3 to throw the ball to.

But Garcon was definitely way overpayed. I thought the 5 year 35 mil we offered was a little too much.

[Andy]

As far as I know, Washington still has Santana Moss. A WR tandem of Santana Moss, Pierre Garcon, and Josh Morgan, does look pretty solid for RG3 to throw the ball to.

But Garcon was definitely way overpayed. I thought the 5 year 35 mil we offered was a little too much.

Santana Moss is making 3.15M compared to Garcon's 7.75M. Looks like Moss is going to be the #2 receiver and Garcon will be the #1. it should be the other way around, but Moss is getting real old. He'll be 33 at the start of next year. He's a FA at the end of next year, so he's not the long term answer or even the short term answer. I wouldn't be surprised if they released him tomorrow, he's really useless. He gets injured and lost his stride. He has no impact anymore. Morgan will be the new #2 guy unless they bring a better guy in.

It seemed like the Colts offered contracts to Garcon and Wayne. I think the Colts wanted one or the other, but couldn't afford both. Once Garcon said no, they went after Reggie, that's what it seems to me.

[dgambill]

Ok...

Garcon is being paid #1 receiver money, no one on that receiving core is making as much as him. With that being said, they wouldn't pay him that money to take the role as the #2 receiver. The #2 receiver in Shanahan's offense is ideally the deep threat. Look at Rod Smith, he was a deep threat with the Broncos in Shanahan's years and he was the #2 receiver. The #1 receiver on most teams, including Mike's team is the reliable consistently good handed target. Look at Ed McAffrey with Mike Shanahan with the Broncos in the 90's early 2000's. Garcon's big play ability does not fit the #1 receiver spot on Mike's system, plain and system, and he won't change for him after 15 years of it working, especially for a receiver like Pierre. Garcon is good at slants, and the deep plays. He's a mediocre route runner and he's an average run blocker. He ain't no Hines Ward. He fits that team as a #2 receiver, and not as #1.

I agree with your accessment. I agree Garcon was overpaid...however..in your example who got the large contract then??? Rod Smith correct? Just saying. A lot of teams pay big for big play makers. Deshawn Jackson, Marquis Coltson, Randy Moss, and several other teams. Yes there are #1 guys that can do it all and they get mega-tron/fitzgerald money but a home run threat is hard to find. A #1 option that runs those precise routes like you explained I believe they have...sometimes its what you DON'T have that you have to pay to get. Some teams don't have a running back or tackle or whatever and have to pay over perhaps the value to get it because they need it. This was someone that fit what they needed and while I agree still overpaid they had high value on the skills he possessed versus what else was out there on the market. Colston/V.Jackson was out of their price range and pretty much signed right away so they had to act fast to get what they valued.

[Andy]

I agree with your accessment. I agree Garcon was overpaid...however..in your example who got the large contract then??? Rod Smith correct? Just saying. A lot of teams pay big for big play makers. Deshawn Jackson, Marquis Coltson, Randy Moss, and several other teams. Yes there are #1 guys that can do it all and they get mega-tron/fitzgerald money but a home run threat is hard to find. A #1 option that runs those precise routes like you explained I believe they have...sometimes its what you DON'T have that you have to pay to get. Some teams don't have a running back or tackle or whatever and have to pay over perhaps the value to get it because they need it. This was someone that fit what they needed and while I agree still overpaid they had high value on the skills he possessed versus what else was out there on the market. Colston/V.Jackson was out of their price range and pretty much signed right away so they had to act fast to get what they valued.

Ed McAffrey made more money than Rod Smith. Smith signed a 5y 13.5M deal in 1993 compared to McAffrey's 3M average a year in the late 90's early 2000's. McAffrey was #1, Smith was #2. Pure deep threats are hard to find, but it's what teams look for as their #1 receiver. The #1 receivers are the good all around receivers that are generally good route runners and have good hands. If teams have to choose a deep threat or a reliable good handed target, they'll pick the good handed target. You take maybe 4 deep (20+) shots in a game, to whereas you look for that reliable receiver 10+ times a game. The reliable receiver has more of an impact on the field, as they make more plays. The deep play guy may get a couple of deep balls, but the 10+ guy is the guy that you can consistently go to, whereas you can't with the deep threat guy. Teams even overpay for guys that are reliable, to where you don't see that many teams overpay for the deep threats (beside Garcn and Desean Jackson). #1 receiver = reliable guy, #2 = deep threat in most teams offensive scheme and Shanahan's offense. Teams look for the consistent reliable good handed target, not the deep threat, unless they already have one of those players, then they'll look for the other type of receiver.

[dgambill]

Ed McAffrey made more money than Rod Smith. Smith signed a 5y 13.5M deal in 1993 compared to McAffrey's 3M average a year in the late 90's early 2000's. McAffrey was #1, Smith was #2. Pure deep threats are hard to find, but it's what teams look for as their #1 receiver. The #1 receivers are the good all around receivers that are generally good route runners and have good hands. If teams have to choose a deep threat or a reliable good handed target, they'll pick the good handed target. You take maybe 4 deep (20+) shots in a game, to whereas you look for that reliable receiver 10+ times a game. The reliable receiver has more of an impact on the field, as they make more plays. The deep play guy may get a couple of deep balls, but the 10+ guy is the guy that you can consistently go to, whereas you can't with the deep threat guy. Teams even overpay for guys that are reliable, to where you don't see that many teams overpay for the deep threats (beside Garcn and Desean Jackson). #1 receiver = reliable guy, #2 = deep threat in most teams offensive scheme and Shanahan's offense. Teams look for the consistent reliable good handed target, not the deep threat, unless they already have one of those players, then they'll look for the other type of receiver.

I guess my recolection of Rod Smith was wrong. I just thought since he was a 3 time pro bowler that he got paid more. Man that guy was worth it lol. All I know is that offense values the deep threat to keep defenses away from the line of scrimmage for their run game and because of the way Shannahan likes to move the quarterback and roll him out they don't typically run lots and lots of timing routes or routes where you have to worry about precision quite as much. I think Garcon will fit in well with this team and while he is definately over paid I understand why they valued him that much. I understand teams HAVE to have guys that move the chains and I think Garcon does that ok but true game breakers...that change outcomes are very hard to find. It is very hard to find guys that can take it the distance like Garcon can on that wr screen or on those short routes that he runs and also can catch deep balls. Garcon has a bad rep for having the worst drop in INDY recent history dropping that third down pass in the second quarter against the Saints. Changed the outcome of the game in my mind but I think he has rare talent....and of course the Redskins paid him like a hall of famer but that team was pittiful at wr last year and needed threats for RG3 and won't be able to get them in the draft so they HAD to over pay to ensure they got him.

[Coltsarerich]

nah, it's as easy as run route catch ball if thrown to you. Pretty sure thats how it works.

[Coltsarerich]

and if you catch it when it's thrown to you they give you big money, and if you go all the way with the ball when they throw it to you they give you a billion monies. this is football.

[Coltsarerich]

Pretty sure the sport was invented by women.

[eaglejoe8]

Nothing against Garçon but I do hope he busts in Washington.

[Balzer40]

Here's the real reason Garcon won't do well in Washington........Because he's playing for the SKINS, Thats really all that needs to be said. No matter who they overpay to join that team they always suck. RG3 is an overhyped Arena league QB that will struggle mightily in the NFL. Of course this is just my opinion and I know there are those that disagree, but time will tell.

[RGIII]

Regarding Alvin Harper: I'm not so sure that's the greatest comparison. There are surely other, better busts you could have used to compare Garcon to. Go back and look at Harper's numbers and you'll see just how out of whack his production really was. He averaged almost 24 ypc and never had more than 36 receptions or 830 yards while in Dallas. Garcon's numbers and overall ability without a Hall of fame QB are considerably safer... but not necessarily above being a disappointment in the vein of Chris Chambers. Personally, I doubt he regresses in DC the bigger question is whether he can be a legitimate #1 if Leonard Hankerson doesn't grow into the role.

The Alvin Harper comparison would have been great for, say, DeSean Jackson had he left Philly for a team without a good QB.

@Andy...

The Skins also signed Eddie Royal so Garcon probably won't have to be the number one over there. That said it is the Redskins and they are Daniel Snyder's team. Nothing they do ever seems to work out well. They definitely overpaid for what they will be getting. Still wish Garcon well.

Eddie Royal is still talking to several teams. We have an advantage because he grew up a Skins fan in VA and was a Shanahan draft pick but nothing is final yet.

Even though the 'Skins overpaid for Morgan and Garcon, they are more respectable in that area now.

Not sure if Gafney will be back, but I believe Moss is there to stay, and so is Fred Davis. And Leonard

Hankerson will be in his 2nd year and should be ready to go from his injury. So, all in all, RG3 has some

weapons at least. And Roy Helu can catch it out of the backfield.

Moss may find himself on the chopping block ahead of Gaffney. We love Moss... but his days are numbered. If Royal winds up here both him and Gaffney may be out unless Shanahan wants a battle royale for receiver roster spots.

Too bad their defense will be losing some key players. Fletcher is likely gone and Landry is almost definitely gone. Hall is gone soon after this year and if I'm not mistaken, Orapko's still in his rookie deal and will demand a big contract. The Redskins can't kill themselves now.

We did a sidegrade at safety by signing Meriweather to a cheap deal. Same potential to perform, same level of associated issues (mental instead of physical), much less money involved. No one should be buying the hype on Landry. He played good for a 9 game stretch in 2010 but was incredibly underwhelming in the years prior to that and incredibly injured ever since.

Fletcher's agents aren't budging on their demands but the two sides aren't too far apart and the ILB market is pretty slow. I think he'll come back. He sure as heck knows the fans want him back.

Hall would be no major loss if he performs like he did last year. Josh Wilson is our best DB by far and we got him for a real bargain last year.

As for Orakpo, our cap penalty will be lifted right as his contract is up. That's a good time to gain an extra $18 mil in cap space, no?

Sure he was injured quite a bit in the last 2 years, but when healthy he was "a Pro Bowl safety" according to many like his coach Mike Shannahan. Fletcher is a huge loss. He's the captain and best player of that defense. He is a tacking machine who's great in coverage. The ageless. Landry and Fletcher are two great losses, and two good acquisitions for other teams.

Funny how we've made no real effort to bring Landry back, then. Clearly we don't value Landry as much as Landry values Landry.

Nothing against Garçon but I do hope he busts in Washington.

Can't blame you there. I hope the greatest team ever assembled implodes again, myself

Here's the real reason Garcon won't do well in Washington........Because he's playing for the SKINS, Thats really all that needs to be said. No matter who they overpay to join that team they always suck. RG3 is an overhyped Arena league QB that will struggle mightily in the NFL. Of course this is just my opinion and I know there are those that disagree, but time will tell.

Barry Cofield, Stephen Bowen, and Josh Wilson were the marquee members of our last free agent class and they were among the best members of our defense. 11 of our 12 draft picks also made the 53 man roster with many of them contributing heavily in limited action. Basically what I'm saying is that times change. Our front office has gotten progressively more shrewd after hiring our first real GM since Snyder bought the team. To continue to treat the Skins as exactly the same team they were in 2000 or 2005 would be for me to insist for the next 10 years that the Colts have a terrible defensive scheme and cut all their best players - despite all evidence to the contrary - based solely on what happened over the last year.

We'll have to see about RGIII. He has too many legitimately good qualities (even by NFL standards) to just dismiss off-hand. If there were serious questions about his mechanics or his intelligence then I might be extremely worried... but he passes just about every test with flying colors. The only thing to worry about with him are the rather vague unknowns that you have to worry about with any prospect.

[Jay305]

Garcon isnt even a deep threat out of like 26+ deep targets he only catches about 6 of those passes. He has always been overrated

[sixfive]

The Redskins do this every off season. They go get free agents that they believe can get it done now. They have failed at it every year. I like Garcon but he will not be a impact for the skins because they do not protect there QB. The skins strength this past year was the running game. I wish Garcon well but it isnt going to happen in DC.

[PrincetonTiger]

he is now playing with the Redskins

[Steve Waugh]

There is nothing to worry on his route running or getting open, his issue is dropping the balls.

[HGRekks]

There is nothing to worry on his route running or getting open, his issue is dropping the balls.

There is plenty to worry about with his route running.

[John Dee]

This is the reason why the Skins would not be a good fit for Garcon.

Number 2 receivers are sometimes meant to be number 2 receivers. They get the #2 cornerbacks and they're not as worrisome as the #1 receiver who teams tend to plan against. Pierre Garcon has played as the #2 WR for the Colts the past 2.5 seasons. He's been a very good deep threat for many, but has been too inconsistent at times. Does this remind you of someone...

...Alvin Harper

Alvin Harper of the Cowboys was one of the best #2 receivers back in the 90's with Michael Irvin being the #1. He was so good because he was the #2 wide receiver and Irvin was a more worrisome threat. Every team defended against Smith, Irvin and Aikman. Nothing about Harper, but Harper ended up having several good seasons getting to 850 yards in one season.

One thing Alvin Harper and Garcon had in common was the fact that they were deep threats. Deep threats are #2 WR, and you'll never find a pure deep threat receiver be a number 1 WR, except Desean Jackson. Mike Wallace, Vincent Jackson and Percy Harvin are reliable receivers too with good hands. Deep threats that are #2 dont transition well to the #1 receiver spot in a new different system.

Now that Garcon is with the Redskins, he must adapt to a new lifestyle. He's in a city where the spotlight is always on that division. They have a new QB, who may not pan out (but he probably will). That team in general looks like it's declining and not getting better, since some of their FAs are not coming back. They play Mike Shannahan's run heavy variation of the West Coast offense. It's going to be tough for a deep threat to become the new #1 reliable guy playing in a new offense, new city, new coach and a QB who's going to be a rookie. These are all signs that he will probably not pan out with the Skins.

I love ya Pierre, but not the best choice to join the Skins.

Just call a spade a spade... He drops way too many balls, and at BAD TIMES.

[Andy]

Just call a spade a spade... He drops way too many balls, and at BAD TIMES.

Although he has worked on his consistency and he looked a bit better this year, he does still struggle with catching the ball all the time, and that won't help if you're a no.1 WR.

[Coltsarerich]

Just call a spade a spade... He drops way too many balls, and at BAD TIMES.

dont be racist.

[ThatOneColtFan]

He'll be fine.

[John Dee]

dont be racist.

racist? Are you kidding me?

Sigh.............

I can't fathom that in the INFORMATION AGE people are so simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_call_a_spade_a_spade

[Andy]

dont be racist.

How is that racist? That is in no way racist.

[dgambill]

Look I know Pierre has dropped a lot of passes in the past but lets be fair to the guy. Last year he was below Wes Welker in drops. Pierre dropped only 4 passes last year while putting up career numbers with a backup qb. I'm not going to say Pierre will be the next Jerry Rice but he has steadily improved. All of us Colts fans have watched him get better from Year 1 to Year 4 and there is no arguement he has become a legit threat in the nfl. I'm not going to hate on the guy just because he isn't playing for us. He got a great contract (overpaid as he was) and has taken great steps in getting better. Do I think he will have it easy in Washington...no..but I see no reason he can't continue his growth. He has traditionally dropped a lot of passes but if you look at the stats so have Steve Smith of Carolina, Dwayne Bowe, Deshan Jackson, Marquis Coltson, and Brandon Marshall. He ranks right beside all those players from 2008-2010. Those are all great receivers that make big plays and are difference makers. Garcon is that similar caliber player and this year he has improven on the drops. All I know is he is getting better year after year while being one of the most explosive big play makers in the game on last year the worst team in the league. That is what Washington saw and that is what I see. Those that don't I believe are being overly critical of a former player that jilted us. If you are saying he won't succeed because of fitting into their offense or he plays poorly on grass or other reasons I can see that arguement but most of the arguements seem pretty petty.

[achcolts]

I like Garcon. I just don't think he's worth $8,000,000.00 per year let alone the contract that Dan Snyder gave him. If that's what he wanted in Indy, it's good that he's gone.

yes, not worth #1 receiver money, i agree on that. but people are bashing him way too much when he was one of our very few highlights last season