When is it time to give up on an NFL coach?

[DalTXColtsFan]

John Harbaugh had a spectacular run from 2008 to 2012 winning a playoff game each year and winning a super bowl (over his brother Jim).  But from 2013 to 2016 he missed the playoffs 3 times and never won his division.  Time to give up on him and go another direction?

 

Sean Payton - similar situation, won a Super Bowl in 2009 but is coming off 3 straight losing seasons.  Time to make a change? 

 

I'm sure that if I did some digging I could find other examples.

 

When, in general, is it time to give up on a regime and make a change?

[-JJ-]

Just winning or losing cannot be the sole reason to how long to keep a coach. Really it's about how good a coach he is with what he has to work with.

 

Cowher hung around and finally won. Being to conservative probably cost his him some playoff games. Ditto Schottenheimer.

 

If I remember Check Knox took a long time to win the big one but was a good coach. Bud Grant made it to the SB 4 times but never won but clearly a good coach.

 

However it doesn't appear to me the colts coaches have much on the ball so a change there might be more desirable.

[Colts_Fan12]

For the love of God will you all stop comparing dummy Chuck to coaches way better then him. Sean Payton and John Harbaugh both already had a SB ring at this point in their careers. Also John plays in the tough AFC North while the NFC South hasn't been great it sure hasn't been AFC South bad. I know this is just a thread to defend this * regime but damn excuses have to stop somewhere.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 hour ago, DalTXColtsFan said:

John Harbaugh had a spectacular run from 2008 to 2012 winning a playoff game each year and winning a super bowl (over his brother Jim).  But from 2013 to 2016 he missed the playoffs 3 times and never won his division.  Time to give up on him and go another direction?

 

Sean Payton - similar situation, won a Super Bowl in 2009 but is coming off 3 straight losing seasons.  Time to make a change? 

 

I'm sure that if I did some digging I could find other examples.

 

When, in general, is it time to give up on a regime and make a change?

Both regimes have done a lot more for their franchise then our stupid FO

[DalTXColtsFan]

Did anyone happen to notice that that this thread is in the NFLGeneral forum?

[Synthetic]

1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

For the love of God will you all stop comparing dummy Chuck to coaches way better then him. Sean Payton and John Harbaugh both already had a SB ring at this point in their careers. Also John plays in the tough AFC North while the NFC South hasn't been great it sure hasn't been AFC South bad. I know this is just a thread to defend this * regime but damn excuses have to stop somewhere.

 

Post of the day 

[jvan1973]

Just now, Synthetic said:

 

Post of the day 

Not really.   Payton has severely under performed.  Yet,   he stays 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Not really.   Payton has severely under performed.  Yet,   he stays 

People talk about what some Coaches have accomplished years ago and defend them but when it comes to Chuck 2012-2014 didn't exist  

[jvan1973]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

People talk about what some Coaches have accomplished years ago and defend them but when it comes to Chuck 2012-2014 didn't exist  

Exactly.   I don't think Chuck is the best coach.   But we could certainly do worse

[Synthetic]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

People talk about what some Coaches have accomplished years ago and defend them but when it comes to Chuck 2012-2014 didn't exist  

 

Because it was 2 years ago and bragging about 8-8 isn't much for a team that used to go 12-4 every year and automatically win their crap division. 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, Synthetic said:

 

Because it was 2 years ago and bragging about 8-8 isn't much for a team that used to go 12-4 every year and automatically win their crap division. 

Because the nfc south has been such a juggernaut over the years.  Get real

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Exactly.   I don't think Chuck is the best coach.   But we could certainly do worse

I agree, we may never win a SB with Chuck but he is far from the worse Coach. Like I said I wanted change but I can live with 1 more season of having Chuck especially with Luck still being real young. Luck hasn't even entered his prime yet. If we go 8-8 again then Irsay will get rid of both IMO, I knew he wasn't going too right now and I have Posted that a lot since October.

[Jules]

12 minutes ago, Synthetic said:

 

Post of the day 

 

Seen the Saints fired 5 assistant coaches today. Hopefully one is the special teams disaster.

 

I think the Saints will try to make a final run with Brees since the NFC South is a revolving door of winners. People last offseason said "the Panthers have it made for years". 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree, we may never win a SB with Chuck but he is far from the worse Coach. Like I said I wanted change but I can live with 1 more season of having Chuck especially with Luck still being real young. Luck hasn't even entered his prime yet. If we go 8-8 again then Irsay will get rid of both IMO, I knew he wasn't going too right now and I have Posted that a lot since October.

I was more for keeping him this year and giving him another shot as opposed to starting over and possibly getting worse.   

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, Synthetic said:

 

Because it was 2 years ago and bragging about 8-8 isn't much for a team that used to go 12-4 every year and automatically win their crap division. 

Who's bragging about 8-8? I am sure not but my point is, a lot of people in here sure want to point out what Coaches have accomplished years ago but when it comes to Chuck the same people don't even acknowledge what he has done from 2012-2014. I think Payton is a better Coach but he hasn't done that great since 2009 when he won a SB, Harbaugh has also missed the Playoffs 2 seasons in a row. Harbaugh isn't all the great without Ray Lewis and that top notch Defense is he?

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Jules said:

 

Seen the Saints fired 5 assistant coaches today. Hopefully one is the special teams disaster.

 

I think the Saints will try to make a final run with Brees since the NFC South is a revolving door of winners. People last offseason said "the Panthers have it made for years". 

Yeah and they went 6-10 but Ron Rivera is a God  

[Jules]

I think they will give Sean Payton another few years, until Brees retires. Those two won't be separated due to a long history now together IMO. Brees sounded frustrated with how the season ended for the Saints again. 

Payton actually helped revive the career of Brees too in New Orleans when his shoulder was all messed up and not many teams even wanted to give him another chance. Miami even had a chance to sign Brees back in 2006 and said no to him. 

[Jules]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah and they went 6-10 but Ron Rivera is a God  

 

Nobody ever said he was a God. The NFC South is a revolving door though with division winners a lot so it actually would not even shock me if next year the Saints or Bucs won the division in an upset. This year it's the Falcons and last year it was the Panthers. There is very little consistency there but when someone wins that division they are often VERY good doing it and don't just squeak in barely.

[Derakynn]

Ah yes, I forgot NFL General was code for "more threads to be twist into a Colts bashing thread when I'm tired with the ones in the Colts forum". To answer your question somewhat, I think the time to make a change is when you are not seeing improvement. Firing a coach does not mean they suck. It could just mean that a change is needed. Fresh perspectives are important, and if the ways of your particular coach have worn themselves and out have become ineffective for your situation then you should remove them. I think the Ravens should make a change, as they have been unimpressive and stagnant the last 3 years. Does that mean Harbaugh is bad? No. I'd almost say the same with the Saints. But their GM is pretty garbage and their defenses are generally trash, and he is an offensive coach. So far Peyton's choices for defensive coordinators have not worked out, or their defensive roster has not got it done (I don't watch them so I don't know which). But at this point you have to consider making a change. Surely next year would be playoffs or bust for them. You are wasting the last few years of a great quarterback. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Jules said:

 

Nobody ever said he was a God. The NFC South is a revolving door though with division winners a lot so it actually would not even shock me if next year the Saints or Bucs won the division in an upset. This year it's the Falcons and last year it was the Panthers. There is very little consistency there but when someone wins that division they are often VERY good doing it and don't just squeak in barely.

People in here think he is one of the best Coaches in the league, (same for Arians too who went 7-8-1) and the media brags about him all the time like he is Vince Lombardi so yes some people do think he is a God. All I know he went 6-10 with a QB that is equivalent to ours and he has a much better Defense to work with than Chuck does.

[ReMeDy]

What I'm trying to figure out is why Rex Ryan, who's Bills ended with the same record as our Colts, got fired despite having a lesser talented QB and despite Rex being with the team for a shorter span of time.

[Jules]

Saints actually did fire 5 coaches today.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/saints/2017/01/06/sean-payton-fires-five-assistants-joe-vitt-new-orleans/96255668/

 

I guess they are going to get very serious now about the final years of Brees.

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

For the love of God will you all stop comparing dummy Chuck to coaches way better then him. Sean Payton and John Harbaugh both already had a SB ring at this point in their careers. Also John plays in the tough AFC North while the NFC South hasn't been great it sure hasn't been AFC South bad. I know this is just a thread to defend this * regime but damn excuses have to stop somewhere.

 

 

All the coaches who you insist are better than Chuck ALL had much better teams than he did.

 

Have you noticed how Sean Payton and John Harbaugh aren't winning as much when their team's aren't as good?

 

Teams with talent win.      Teams with less talent win less.       Teams with very little talent hardly win at all.

 

I don't mean to state the incredibly obvious,  but the teams SP and JH won the Super Bowls with had much, much more talent than they do now.       They didn't become dumb the last few years.     They now have less talent.

 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

What I'm trying to figure out is why Rex Ryan, who's Bills ended with the same record as our Colts, got fired despite having a lesser talented QB and despite Rex being with the team for a shorter span of time.

 

He also came in with a reputation of being a very good defensive coach and he inherited one of the best defensive teams in the league.      And, under his coaching,  almost overnight,  the Bills defense became very mediocre.      They had talent and didn't perform.   

 

He also didn't put up a season of 11-5 which Pagano did three times.

 

[Jules]

3 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

What I'm trying to figure out is why Rex Ryan, who's Bills ended with the same record as our Colts, got fired despite having a lesser talented QB and despite Rex being with the team for a shorter span of time.

 

Rex is an odd one. I actually was a big believer in him once myself. I don't even get it at times. 

[Colts_Fan12]

10 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

All the coaches who you insist are better than Chuck ALL had much better teams than he did.

 

Have you noticed how Sean Payton and John Harbaugh aren't winning as much when their team's aren't as good?

 

Teams with talent win.      Teams with less talent win less.       Teams with very little talent hardly win at all.

 

I don't mean to state the incredibly obvious,  but the teams SP and JH won the Super Bowls with had much, much more talent than they do now.       They didn't become dumb the last few years.     They now have less talent.

 

Both are still better coaches then chuck 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

What I'm trying to figure out is why Rex Ryan, who's Bills ended with the same record as our Colts, got fired despite having a lesser talented QB and despite Rex being with the team for a shorter span of time.

It's because Chuck has a winning record and has made a Title Game. Rex was never over .500 at Buffalo.

[Colts_Fan12]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It's because Chuck has a winning record and has made a Title Game. Rex was never over .500 at Buffalo.

Like he said he doesn't have a QB like Luck I guarantee you we win just as much if not more even with rex as HC 

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Like he said he doesn't have a QB like Luck I guarantee you we win just as much if not more even with rex as HC 

I am not sure about that, what's the excuse for Ron Rivera going 6-10 with Cam Newton at QB and having a talented Defense?

[Colts_Fan12]

11 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure about that, what's the excuse for Ron Rivera going 6-10 with Cam Newton at QB and having a talented Defense?

We are not taking about Ron. But I bet he would won more too. But rex took mark butt fumble Sanchez to the AFC championship game 

[DalTXColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

We are not taking about Ron. But I bet he would won more too. But rex took mark butt fumble Sanchez to the AFC championship game 

Rex would have been a good example.  Each of his first two years as an NFL head coach he took his team to the AFCCG, even one-and-doneing the Patriots out of the playoffs once.  But then over the next 6 years he never returned to the postseason, at times criminally mismanaging the QB position (Geno Smith????).  The 2 years he took the Jets to the AFCCG he had #1 and #6 scoring defenses, each of the next 4 years his scoring defense was never above #19.  Ironically Todd Bowles took over and had them right back up to #9 last year.

[DalTXColtsFan]

5 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Like he said he doesn't have a QB like Luck I guarantee you we win just as much if not more even with rex as HC 

Rex may never have had a QB like Luck but *not* having a QB like Luck gave him a HECK of a lot more money to spend on DEFENSE, yet 4 years in a row his scoring defense was #19 or worse.

[NannyMcafee]

13 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Who's bragging about 8-8? I am sure not but my point is, a lot of people in here sure want to point out what Coaches have accomplished years ago but when it comes to Chuck the same people don't even acknowledge what he has done from 2012-2014. I think Payton is a better Coach but he hasn't done that great since 2009 when he won a SB, Harbaugh has also missed the Playoffs 2 seasons in a row. Harbaugh isn't all the great without Ray Lewis and that top notch Defense is he?

 

The whole story is never present. Yeah pagano has an AFCCG appearance. But it was just that. An appearance that was barely an appearance. The AFCCG is exactly what's wrong with pags coaching abilities. The patriots are just good enough to completely dismantle our crap play. 

 

Peyton Manning NEVER played the colts well. Ever. And he was injured in that Denver loss to us. Do you see what the broncos have done without Peyton? Jack squat. 

 

So perception is everything when looking at our run to the AFCCG. So what exactly has chuck done to keep his job other than make it to the AFCCG? Are you telling me you have faith in his ability to repeat that process? Unlikely. 

 

You know jim sorgi made it to the SB as well. But no one talks about his accomplishments on the backs of others succes or failures. That is the point. The dominos fell the right directions, the ball bounced the right way. That doesn't happen for the same team very often that relies on chance, and our team does that a little too much for my comfort and it has bit us in the rear for the last 2 years.

 

sure we might have another year of this and I have accepted that possibility, but that doesn't mean that I have to like the fact, that I have YET to see pagano improve his coaching. Let's continue to do the same process that has failed the last 5 years. I mean why not. Luck has yet to reach his prime. 

 

Its chucks job. His JOB, to notice when his staff isn't doing their job. Like creating opportunities for his oft hit QB with quick hit routes. Like WRs dropping footballs or having lazy routes, like missed tackles! These things are getting worse. 

 

If andrew holds the ball too long it's because his WRs aren't getting open quick enough. It's because his oline which has been the same for the last 5 years, is failing to block long enough for our supposed fast WRs to get open. It's not having running backs chip pass rushers on their way through their routes. 

 

Yea, not making the playoffs 2 years straight is NOT enough to fire your coaching staff. But 3 years of 11-5 and a very unlikely AFCCG appearance (I wouldn't call 7 points much of an appearance) isn't enough to keep one either. We need to remember that he lost that game handily because of the exact same issues we have been seeing from our team the last 2 years.

 

I will never like this staff. They are incompetent. And the leader of that group is sir chuck pagano. 

 

*rant off* 

[jvan1973]

9 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Both are still better coaches then chuck 

That's opinion.   

[coltsva]

I think one of the problems we are seeing with teams like the Bengals and Ravens is year after year their coordinators get hired as head coaches. 

In the past 5 years:

Bengals lost DC Zimmer, OC's Gruden and Jackson to head coaching jobs.

Ravens lost DC Pagano, and OC's Caldwell and Kubiak to head coaching jobs. 

Colts lost only OC Arians to a head coaching job. Pep and Manusky were fired. No one wanted them as head coaches, and I haven't heard of anyone looking to interview Monachino or Chud for a HC gig either. 

 

Out of all of these guys that left for HC positions, all had immediate success except for Jackson (of course, it's Cleveland). It's tough to lose that many coaches and not fall off a little. 

 

A lot of us question the ability of Pagano and Grigson to evaluate player talent, but perhaps the biggest downside of these two guys is that neither is a good evaluator of coaching talent. 

[21isSuperman]

I think you have to approach it on a case-by-case basis.  For example, Chuck Pagano is/should be on the hot seat despite having multiple playoff wins.  Marvin Lewis, on the other hand, hasn't won a playoff game in over 10 years, but isn't under the same scrutiny as Pagano.  Sean Payton's defenses are absolutely awful, but his offensive playcalling is so good that it's hard to let him go.

[Shepman]

Bengal's Marvin Lewis is an example of a HC that has been insanely retained year-over-year and can't win playoff games.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Shepman said:

Bengal's Marvin Lewis is an example of a HC that has been insanely retained year-over-year and can't win playoff games.

If the Colts had the same Coach for over a decade and we didn't even win 1 Playoff game, the fans would jump off a cliff.

[SilentHill]

59 minutes ago, Shepman said:

Bengal's Marvin Lewis is an example of a HC that has been insanely retained year-over-year and can't win playoff games.

 

But, they have continuity!

[Colts_Fan12]

10 minutes ago, SilentHill said:

 

But, they have continuity!

Hey we have continuity at sucking ***!! We are getting better just at the wrong thing.