Touchback rule change

[CR91]

now instead of getting the ball at the 20, they moved it to the 25 in a attempt to lower kick returns. Thoughts

[jvan1973]

I think it will have the opposite effect.   Shorter,   higher kicks 

[CR91]

10 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it will have the opposite effect.   Shorter,   higher kicks 

 

my initial thought exactly

[ReMeDy]

I hate how the NFL keeps damaging the effectiveness of special teams! Special teams has been my favorite part of the game after I saw Devin Hester (my favorite player) with the Bears. That guy was breathtaking - every time he ran it, everyone held their breathe. He'd break tackles so easily, and the ones he didn't break were because he was too fast to be touched.

There was a saying amongst some Bears fans, "90% of the Bears offense was from Devin Hester; the other 10% was from their defense." This was back in the days of Rex Grossman at QB. What made their special teams work were various things that are no longer possible, such as wedge blocking, and the difference in touchbacks.

Eventually, Hester was forced into a WR role, because his talent made him too valuable to keep him exclusively as a return man, but also because the NFL was starting to restrict the effectiveness of special teams.

With this change, special teams is further getting to the point where it's trivial, and eventually, I fear they'll remove it altogether, and for what?... For safety? It's football! Pretty soon, we'll be playing flag football.

[bayone]

5 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

I hate how the NFL keeps damaging the effectiveness of special teams! Special teams has been my favorite part of the game after I saw Devin Hester (my favorite player) with the Bears. That guy was breathtaking - every time he ran it, everyone held their breathe. He'd break tackles so easily, and the ones he didn't break were because he was too fast to be touched.

There was a saying amongst some Bears fans, "90% of the Bears offense was from Devin Hester; the other 10% was from their defense." This was back in the days of Rex Grossman at QB. What made their special teams work were various things that are no longer possible, such as wedge blocking, and the difference in touchbacks.

Eventually, Hester was forced into a WR role, because his talent made him too valuable to keep him exclusively as a return man, but also because the NFL was starting to restrict the effectiveness of special teams.

With this change, special teams is further getting to the point where it's trivial, and eventually, I fear they'll remove it altogether, and for what?... For safety? It's football! Pretty soon, we'll be playing flag football.

 

after that initial kickoff TD in SB41  Colts made sure not to kick to him again , will never forget that run back TD

[Cynjin]

14 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it will have the opposite effect.   Shorter,   higher kicks 

 

If the kickers can consistantly kick a higher KO between the goal line and say the 7 yd line, it would make sense.

[esmort]

Hope it does backfire on them... So tired of them taking more and more contact and hard hits out. 

[OffensivelyPC]

1 hour ago, esmort said:

Hope it does backfire on them... So tired of them taking more and more contact and hard hits out. 

Well, after the lawsuit and being torn apart by the media and social media alike for it's role in long term brain damage, can you really blame them?  The fact of the matter is, we've all put them in between a rock and a hard place with all the social media and complaining.  Can't have it both ways.

[crazycolt1]

It might effect some teams but I don't think it effects the Colts. There just going to have the ball placed on the 25 after Boomstick does his thing. He has been the best in the league from what I was reading with the Colts giving up the least amount of yardage on kick offs. I don't think the Colts will let 5 yards change what they do.

[Superman]

16 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

I think it will have the opposite effect.   Shorter,   higher kicks 

 

Situationally, sure. Overall, I think most teams will keep hitting touchbacks. NFL coaches tend to be risk-averse, and anything that minimizes the potential for a big play or injury is probably going to be embraced by the league.

[Superman]

39 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Well, after the lawsuit and being torn apart by the media and social media alike for it's role in long term brain damage, can you really blame them?  The fact of the matter is, we've all put them in between a rock and a hard place with all the social media and complaining.  Can't have it both ways.

 

"The NFL doesn't care about player safety, they only care about money! Goodell sucks!" 

 

"Why is the NFL ruining the game by trying to make it safer??!! Goodell sucks!"

[OffensivelyPC]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

"The NFL doesn't care about player safety, they only care about money! Goodell sucks!" 

 

"Why is the NFL ruining the game by trying to make it safer??!! Goodell sucks!"

And then you've got guys like Richard Sherman who complain because the rules are written by people in suits who've never played the game.  

[Superman]

Just now, OffensivelyPC said:

And then you've got guys like Richard Sherman who complain because the rules are written by people in suits who've never played the game.  

 

So stupid, really. I've given Sherman a lot of credit for being a smart guy, but he says a lot of dumb stuff. 

 

Goodell isn't on the competition committee. Lots of former players, including HOFer Ozzie Newsome, are on the committee. Sooo....

[OffensivelyPC]

18 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So stupid, really. I've given Sherman a lot of credit for being a smart guy, but he says a lot of dumb stuff. 

 

Goodell isn't on the competition committee. Lots of former players, including HOFer Ozzie Newsome, are on the committee. Sooo....

Not to mention that, realistically, before a rule is proposed, it's discussed internally with players and coaches in an effort to perfect the rule proposal to begin with.  It's no different than when Congress does studies on whatever they are wanting to write a law or amendment about.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

This is kind of a "lose/lose" proposition. It, arguably, makes the game safer.  But let's not kid ourselves, some of the most exciting plays in football are on special teams.  We are basically getting rid of the following:

 

Kickoff return for TD

Punt return for TD

Big hit on returner in either situation

The hits, the fumbles, the laterals, and every other thing that makes these plays so unforgettable...

"The band is still on the field!"

"Davis goes left, Davis gets a block.  Davis goes for the TD!" (sorry Bama) ...

[OffensivelyPC]

44 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

This is kind of a "lose/lose" proposition. It, arguably, makes the game safer.  But let's not kid ourselves, some of the most exciting plays in football are on special teams.  We are basically getting rid of the following:

 

Kickoff return for TD

Punt return for TD

Big hit on returner in either situation

The hits, the fumbles, the laterals, and every other thing that makes these plays so unforgettable...

"The band is still on the field!"

"Davis goes left, Davis gets a block.  Davis goes for the TD!" (sorry Bama) ...

How are we getting rid of anything on your list that has to do with punting?  The goal of punts is not to get a touchback.  

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

"The NFL doesn't care about player safety, they only care about money! Goodell sucks!" 

 

"Why is the NFL ruining the game by trying to make it safer??!! Goodell sucks!"

 

Worst post ever!

[Lucky Colts Fan]

5 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

How are we getting rid of anything on your list that has to do with punting?  The goal of punts is not to get a touchback.  

 

Everything on the list has to do with returning kicks, which the league is trying to get rid of with new rules.

 

The goal of the KICKING team is not to get a touchback, but to get the ball downed inside the 20.  What is the goal of the RECEIVING team?  Not a touchback, or a downed ball, but a return for a TD, which is one of the most exciting plays in football.

 

I don't know about you, but I will miss it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

18 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

I hate how the NFL keeps damaging the effectiveness of special teams! Special teams has been my favorite part of the game after I saw Devin Hester (my favorite player) with the Bears. That guy was breathtaking - every time he ran it, everyone held their breathe. He'd break tackles so easily, and the ones he didn't break were because he was too fast to be touched.

There was a saying amongst some Bears fans, "90% of the Bears offense was from Devin Hester; the other 10% was from their defense." This was back in the days of Rex Grossman at QB. What made their special teams work were various things that are no longer possible, such as wedge blocking, and the difference in touchbacks.

Eventually, Hester was forced into a WR role, because his talent made him too valuable to keep him exclusively as a return man, but also because the NFL was starting to restrict the effectiveness of special teams.

With this change, special teams is further getting to the point where it's trivial, and eventually, I fear they'll remove it altogether, and for what?... For safety? It's football! Pretty soon, we'll be playing flag football.

 

The league wants to remove the kickoff.  The most concussion suffered are during the kickoff.  Many less during punts.  But there are twice as many punt returns for TD's than kickoffs.  Seeing the slow death of special team, Mike Westhoff and Pat Kirwan/Jim Miller have proposed two separate alternatives.

 

Westhoff proposes a kickoff from their own 25.  10 yard space as before.  9 of the receiving team must line up on the line 10 yards away, only 2 back deep. But also, the next 15 yards as automatic downed ball for receiving team.  So no pooch pop up kicks.  Kicking team must get the ball past the 50 in order to be able to recover it.

 

Pat Kirwan proposes teams lineup for a punt from the 40.  A QB (backup or starter) cannot be on the field in opening or after a score 'punt/kickoff' team.  The initial punt can be blocked and ran in for a TD.  The punt can be fair caught, returned, or allowed to roll and downed as a normal punt.  Jim Miller also proposes no Fair Catches with less than 9 minutes to go in the game.

 

Either would allow a traditional onside kick as is today, but that takes away the Sean Payton surprise onside (super bowl vs. Colts).

 

They both have started to come up with plays that keep special teams players and coaches employed and part of the game  and less a one man (QB) show.  They both know the handwriting is on the wall for traditional kickoffs with its full speed missiles running 40 yards untouched and blowing up blockers and kick returners.  NFL is trying to discourage returms, but I agree with jvan, this one will backfire.  no more touchbacks will happen, and kickers will corner kick to the 2-5 yard line and get after them from there.

 

Westhoff was asked by the Jets to return as Special team coordinator.  He said why?  There currently is no job or coaching to do there (so many touchbacks).  So a creative way to save special teams and reduce concussions is making its way across some experienced (ex) NFL minds.

[OffensivelyPC]

27 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

Everything on the list has to do with returning kicks, which the league is trying to get rid of with new rules.

 

The goal of the KICKING team is not to get a touchback, but to get the ball downed inside the 20.  What is the goal of the RECEIVING team?  Not a touchback, or a downed ball, but a return for a TD, which is one of the most exciting plays in football.

 

I don't know about you, but I will miss it.

But with punting, teams often let them bounce and take their chances it will go in the endzone if the ball hits inside the 5 bease the chanes of a touchback are high.  They fair catch or return anything outside that. Moving the touch back won't change the rate of touchbacks, because the chances of getting a touch back don't change when the ball hits inside the 5 yard line. Teams aren't going to let the ball bounce more often when outside that threshhold in hopes for getting 5 extra yards when the alternative is a downed ball on the less than 5 yard line.

[jim scheurich]

3 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

But with punting, teams often let them bounce and take their chances it will go in the endzone if the ball hits inside the 5 bease the chanes of a touchback are high.  They fair catch or return anything outside that. Moving the touch back won't change the rate of touchbacks, because the chances of getting a touch back don't change when the ball hits inside the 5 yard line. Teams aren't going to let the ball bounce more often when outside that threshhold in hopes for getting 5 extra yards when the alternative is a downed ball on the less than 5 yard line.

Unless they FU

[Lucky Colts Fan]

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

The league wants to remove the kickoff.  The most concussion suffered are during the kickoff.  Many less during punts.  But there are twice as many punt returns for TD's than kickoffs.  Seeing the slow death of special team, Mike Westhoff and Pat Kirwan/Jim Miller have proposed two separate alternatives.

 

Westhoff proposes a kickoff from their own 25.  10 yard space as before.  9 of the receiving team must line up on the line 10 yards away, only 2 back deep. But also, the next 15 yards as automatic downed ball for receiving team.  So no pooch pop up kicks.  Kicking team must get the ball past the 50 in order to be able to recover it.

 

Pat Kirwan proposes teams lineup for a punt from the 40.  A QB (backup or starter) cannot be on the field in opening or after a score 'punt/kickoff' team.  The initial punt can be blocked and ran in for a TD.  The punt can be fair caught, returned, or allowed to roll and downed as a normal punt.  Jim Miller also proposes no Fair Catches with less than 9 minutes to go in the game.

 

Either would allow a traditional onside kick as is today, but that takes away the Sean Payton surprise onside (super bowl vs. Colts).

 

They both have started to come up with plays that keep special teams players and coaches employed and part of the game  and less a one man (QB) show.  They both know the handwriting is on the wall for traditional kickoffs with its full speed missiles running 40 yards untouched and blowing up blockers and kick returners.  NFL is trying to discourage returms, but I agree with jvan, this one will backfire.  no more touchbacks will happen, and kickers will corner kick to the 2-5 yard line and get after them from there.

 

Westhoff was asked by the Jets to return as Special team coordinator.  He said why?  There currently is no job or coaching to do there (so many touchbacks).  So a creative way to save special teams and reduce concussions is making its way across some experienced (ex) NFL minds.

 

1 minute ago, OffensivelyPC said:

But with punting, teams often let them bounce and take their chances it will go in the endzone if the ball hits inside the 5 bease the chanes of a touchback are high.  They fair catch or return anything outside that. Moving the touch back won't change the rate of touchbacks, because the chances of getting a touch back don't change when the ball hits inside the 5 yard line. Teams aren't going to let the ball bounce more often when outside that threshhold in hopes for getting 5 extra yards when the alternative is a downed ball on the less than 5 yard line.

 

I'm not arguing one side or the other because I'm torn.  I grew up watching amazing kick/punt returns for TDs.  But because it's a more concussion-prone play, the league wants to get rid of it.  I understand that, and I support that, but I am going to miss the kick/punt return for a TD.  It's one of the most exciting plays in football history...

[Superman]

1 hour ago, OffensivelyPC said:

How are we getting rid of anything on your list that has to do with punting?  The goal of punts is not to get a touchback.  

 

Does the rule change affect touchbacks on punts? I hadn't thought about that.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

5 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Well, after the lawsuit and being torn apart by the media and social media alike for it's role in long term brain damage, can you really blame them?  The fact of the matter is, we've all put them in between a rock and a hard place with all the social media and complaining.  Can't have it both ways.

Agree. We can't ask for brutal hits now and then demonize the league an ex-player is found to have had traumatic brain injury due to hits while playing football. 

[OffensivelyPC]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Does the rule change affect touchbacks on punts? I hadn't thought about that.

Its only for free kicks, so i guess not. I hadnt either until you said that.

[oldunclemark]

I'm not understanding why this was a priority for anyone

[oldunclemark]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:01 PM, OffensivelyPC said:

And then you've got guys like Richard Sherman who complain because the rules are written by people in suits who've never played the game.  

Richard has found that if you blame the 'guys in the suits' for everything,  many automatically jump inline behind whatever you say no matter how wrong it is....or incorrect the premise is

 

..Its why every presidential candidate says he's a 'outsider'

 

 

[OffensivelyPC]

27 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

I'm not understanding why this was a priority for anyone

The league wants less kickoff returns because that is statistically where players are more likely to suffer a concussive shot. It incentivizes tge receiving team to take the field position and the kicking team isnt going to kick it shorter. Theyll experiment with it in the preseason and see what they can get away with.

23 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Richard has found that if you blame the 'guys in the suits' for everything,  many automatically jump inline behind whatever you say no matter how wrong it is....or incorrect the premise is

 

..Its why every presidential candidate says he's a 'outsider'

 

 

Its easy to point the finger at rich corporate execs. What i always find funny about it with NFL players like Sherman is that, while positionally, he can identify with blue collar workers, he's also a millionaire. Somehow that gets justified by simply saying the owners are billionaires. I honestly dont have any sympathy for Sherman when it comes to rule changes like the ones he is complaining about.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Because the NFL does not know if this rule will help or have unintended consequences, it can be revoked next year.  There are two schools of thought on what will happen, Pat Kirwan and Jay Feely (separately)  believe that kickers will now hang the ball up in the air more and force a return, rather than give a team the ball at the 25.

 

NFL Kickers I spoke with said they would now hit high hang time kicks outside the numbers to the goalline. https://t.co/xDBe2gzGT5

— Jay Feely (@jayfeely) March 23, 2016

 

On the other hand, Colts kickoff guy Pat McAfee, who also punts for Indy, doesn't see the extra five yards as a big deal. McAfee said he's going to keep blasting kickoffs through the end zone.

 

Only a 1% better chance of scoring from 25 than from 20.. From a strategy point.. Imma bat a 1000 on touchbacks this year #ColtsNation

— Pat McAfee (@PatMcAfeeShow) March 23, 2016

 

It should prove to be interesting at the minimum.

[oldunclemark]

1 hour ago, OffensivelyPC said:

The league wants less kickoff returns because that is statistically where players are more likely to suffer a concussive shot. It incentivizes tge receiving team to take the field position and the kicking team isnt going to kick it shorter. Theyll experiment with it in the preseason and see what they can get away with.

Its easy to point the finger at rich corporate execs. What i always find funny about it with NFL players like Sherman is that, while positionally, he can identify with blue collar workers, he's also a millionaire. Somehow that gets justified by simply saying the owners are billionaires. I honestly dont have any sympathy for Sherman when it comes to rule changes like the ones he is complaining about.

But where is the logic about basically a 5-yard penalty for a touchback.

If you wanted FEWER returns.put a touchback at the 15-yard line. See? 

To put a touchback at the 25 encourages MORE returns....as has been said here.

 

..one way to get fewer collisions on kickoffs would be to have only seven or eight players on the field for kickoffs.......There's no reason you must have 11 men on the field for kickoffs

[jvan1973]

54 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

But where is the logic about basically a 5-yard penalty for a touchback.

If you wanted FEWER returns.put a touchback at the 15-yard line. See? 

To put a touchback at the 25 encourages MORE returns....as has been said here.

 

..one way to get fewer collisions on kickoffs would be to have only seven or eight players on the field for kickoffs.......There's no reason you must have 11 men on the field for kickoffs

How does moving it to the 25 create more returns?  If the ball goes in the end zone.  No one will bring it out.     If you put it at the 15,  far more would take a chance bringing it out. 

[ColtRider]

30 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

How does moving it to the 25 create more returns?  If the ball goes in the end zone.  No one will bring it out.     If you put it at the 15,  far more would take a chance bringing it out. 

 

Agreed. If the statistic is correct from ColtsBlueFL, and the return ratio is bettered by only 1% for TDs at the 25, it stands to reason what you've touched on here jvan, is that returners are swayed by a false sense of larger yardage probability returns. 

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, oldunclemark said:

If you wanted FEWER returns.put a touchback at the 15-yard line. See? 

To put a touchback at the 25 encourages MORE returns....as has been said here.

 

Can you explain your reasoning?

 

If a touchback will get you only to the 15-yard line, that will encourage the returner to bring it out. The returner is much less likely to run it out if a touchback gives the team the ball at the 25-yard line. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

24 minutes ago, ColtRider said:

 

Agreed. If the statistic is correct from ColtsBlueFL, and the return ratio is bettered by only 1% for TDs at the 25, it stands to reason what you've touched on here jvan, is that returners are swayed by a false sense of larger yardage probability returns. 

 

Pat McAfee isn't far off.  Here's some number for you.

Years           KO Spot  Return %         TD/Ret %        Yd/Ret
1994-2010       30      83.32%               0.29%           22.24
2011-2015       35      48.30%               0.31%           24.09

Start     TD%         FG%       Score%
20       17.70%    11.70%      29.40%
25       18.10%    13.10%      31.20%

 

Percent chance of a team scoring starting inside the their own 20 yard line?  Around 28.60% since 2011.

 

Coradelle Patterson (Vikings) is the only returner averaging over 25 yards per kickoff return these days that I am aware of.  Maybe the Jets returner too.

[ColtRider]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Pat McAfee isn't far off.  Here's some number for you.

Years           KO Spot  Return %         TD/Ret %        Yd/Ret
1994-2010       30      83.32%               0.29%           22.24
2011-2015       35      48.30%               0.31%           24.09

Start     TD%         FG%       Score%
20       17.70%    11.70%      29.40%
25       18.10%    13.10%      31.20%

 

Percent chance of a team scoring starting inside the their own 20 yard line?  Around 28.60% since 2011.

 

Coradelle Patterson (Vikings) is the only returner averaging over 25 yards per kickoff return these days that I am aware of.  Maybe the Jets returner too.

 

Thanks for the info, CBFL! So, what all this boils down to "yardage wise" on kick offs from 2011-15 is a starting point on the 25 yard line anyway. Based on these stats, Pat McAfee is right on the money. Kick it out of the end zone or very close to it ( most will not run it out), and the ball is placed on the 25, which is the league average of return from the last 5 years. No change at all or advantage by kicking it through the end zone. Seems that strategy eliminates the returns. So ... Is that what the NFL wants to do in order to alleviate head trauma on a large scale? 

[-JJ-]

I double hate it.

a) gives the ball to the offense at the 25 min as if the offense isn't favored enough

and

b) It completely takes away the strategy of taking it out or take it at the 20.

Yes it may cut down on injuries a little but those aren't where all the injuries occur

[ColtsBlueFL]

3 hours ago, -JJ- said:

I double hate it.

a) gives the ball to the offense at the 25 min as if the offense isn't favored enough

and

b) It completely takes away the strategy of taking it out or take it at the 20.

Yes it may cut down on injuries a little but those aren't where all the injuries occur

 

The league begs to differ. a Greater percentage of the concussions suffered in the NFL are result of plays on the Kickoff.  Thus the moving of the kick to the 35 b (resulting in a drop of returns from 83% to around 48%). Still not enough, so move the touchback to the 25 to discourage even more returns... except a kicker may not buy into that.  Since there is no time frame, no holder, no defensive rush, the kicker can better place a kickoff than a field goal.  They are pretty good at it too,  when not under duress...  Kirwan says many can place it on a dime.  I believe him.  Jay Feely must think so too, he feels kickers will pooch a high hanger to the goal line just outside the numbers as well.

[oldunclemark]

21 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

How does moving it to the 25 create more returns?  If the ball goes in the end zone.  No one will bring it out.     If you put it at the 15,  far more would take a chance bringing it out. 

Moving the ball to the 25 on a touchback (in theory, because it hasn't happened yet) will nudge teams to try to drop the boot at the goal line and stop the other side short of the 25....an easier task than stopping them short of the 20...

If you put the touchback at the 15.....kickers will boom the ball out of the end zone and happily bury the other side at their own 15.

[ColtsBlueFL]

11 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Moving the ball to the 25 on a touchback (in theory, because it hasn't happened yet) will nudge teams to try to drop the boot at the goal line and stop the other side short of the 25....an easier task than stopping them short of the 20...

If you put the touchback at the 15.....kickers will boom the ball out of the end zone and happily bury the other side at their own 15.

 

Not happening.  and if it did, why even kick? just give it to the team at the 15 every time after a score.  Again... not happening.  They are looking for a better solution without hamstringing the offenses.

[OffensivelyPC]

21 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Moving the ball to the 25 on a touchback (in theory, because it hasn't happened yet) will nudge teams to try to drop the boot at the goal line and stop the other side short of the 25....an easier task than stopping them short of the 20...

If you put the touchback at the 15.....kickers will boom the ball out of the end zone and happily bury the other side at their own 15.

I don't see that being the case.  They could squib it down the field or pop it up every time, but the momentum of the ball would carry it into the endzone.  Teams returning the ball would want it to go into the end zone because returning the ball caught 5 yards deep in the endzone, as the Colts have been accustomed to hardly yields starting field position at the 20, let alone 25.  You take the yards you know you can get.