Why Is Manning’S Replacement Such A Problem?

[Smitto]

Baylor plays in the Big 12. A yawn of a conference. Stanford plays in a much better Pac 10 (12) conference.

Luck has played against better competition ,and has performed amazingly well as a pocket QB.

I'll go ahead and guarantee that he'll be the better NFL product.

You go ahead gurantee that, Luck most likely will be a good QB in the nfl but i doubt he will be better than RGIII for the simple fact that teams will fear RGIII's speed.

[WSO]

Thats not true, its all about hype, its basically like the stock market what ppl say can hurt where and when your drafted. RGIII has a better completion percentage than Luck, although it is minute he does have the better comp stat, meaning he was more accurate hence he is the more accurate QB... Keenum could be the next drew brees for all we know, the guy produces TD's and thats what teams want, whichever team gets him could have a gem in their pocket.

So you're telling me Luck is #1 overall because of hype? Right? Nothing to do with his physical tools, talent or anything else. Simply hype? And Stocks are all based on hype too right? Nothing with how the corporations are performing, whether they acquire assets, lose employees, or see a decline in quarterly revenue which all leads to an educated "guess" by experts as to how that stock will do? Right?

Oh and using your logic, Kellen Moore has better stats than Luck across the board so therefore Moore is the better quarterback. He is far more accurate than Luck.

[WSO]

You go ahead gurantee that, Luck most likely will be a good QB in the nfl but i doubt he will be better than RGIII for the simple fact that teams will fear RGIII's speed.

Show me an NFL QB with elite speed that went on to become a great quarterback. I'd love to hear it.

[Superman]

Show me an NFL QB with elite speed that went on to become a great quarterback. I'd love to hear it.

It's not like speed is a detriment.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Right. You don't have to have three quarterbacks active on game day. So for teams who were used to only having two active quarterbacks, they basically get an extra roster spot on game day. Or you can have three quarterbacks, without the emergency quarterback fiasco Chicago wound up with last season.

Agreed, which is why I said that if it wasn't for Manning's neck/arm strength issue I could see us going with Manning/Luck, if that is the direction we are headed. With that added risk early on I could see 3 QB's to start with maybe turning back into QB1/QB2 if Manning appears to be healthy. It's a good rule, but personally I feel that it should be mandated as QB3 just to protect against Mcafee playing QB.

[Smitto]

Jebus Cripes....just kiddin there buddy.

But why the "III"?

Like who the #$%* was RGI or RGII?

His dad was RG2 hence why he is called RG3... never thought that would be hard to comprehend

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't see exceptional defenses in the Pac 12 or Big 12, or in college football outside of LSU & Alabama and maybe a couple of other SEC teams. Each has some exceptional players, but in teams/defenses as a whole I'm not seeing much.

If our front office does the right thing, they will do their due diligence in the film room, they will do their due diligence at the combine, and in private workouts and hopefully can compare apples to apples. If I were running the show from the Colts perspective, I would ask both players to be fully dressed in complete uniforms for the private workouts, but that is just me.

[Smitto]

So you're telling me Luck is #1 overall because of hype? Right? Nothing to do with his physical tools, talent or anything else. Simply hype? And Stocks are all based on hype too right? Nothing with how the corporations are performing, whether they acquire assets, lose employees, or see a decline in quarterly revenue which all leads to an educated "guess" by experts as to how that stock will do? Right?

Oh and using your logic, Kellen Moore has better stats than Luck across the board so therefore Moore is the better quarterback. He is far more accurate than Luck.

Come on now of course you have to be good to get that hype, but at the same time if you never got that hype ppl wouldnt know you... if keenum was getting that hype ppl would say he is the better QB... Mate if a rumor came out that GM was going down the drain who would by shares from them? and vice versa as well... point is what pply say has a big impact on where your drafted.

Which is one of the reasons why some analysts suspected the dolphins GM was playing down Luck so he could fall to them.. but he came out and denied that.

[WSO]

It's not like speed is a detriment.

Not my point

Elite speed does not automatically make someone a great quarterback. They have to equally posess great skills in other positions. RG3's speed seems to be the "Wow" factor.

I'm looking for a quarterback that came into the league with 'elite speed' that went on to become a great quarterback. The closest I can think of is Mike Vick who is not a great quarterback.

[WSO]

Come on now of course you have to be good to get that hype, but at the same time if you never got that hype ppl wouldnt know you... if keenum was getting that hype ppl would say he is the better QB... Mate if a rumor came out that GM was going down the drain who would by shares from them? and vice versa as well... point is what pply say has a big impact on where your drafted.

Which is one of the reasons why some analysts suspected the dolphins GM was playing down Luck so he could fall to them.. but he came out and denied that.

"hype" is based of how talented a player it is. It's not some magical thing that is attatched to select players. Luck and RG3 are "hyped" because they are very talented. Keenum is not "hyped" because he lacks some of the talent of the top prospects such as mechanics etc.

"hype" = talent

of course Tim Tebow makes me look like an dipstick with how hyped he was :\

[FireJimCaldwell]

Not my point

Elite speed does not automatically make someone a great quarterback. They have to equally posess great skills in other positions. RG3's speed seems to be the "Wow" factor.

I'm looking for a quarterback that came into the league with 'elite speed' that went on to become a great quarterback. The closest I can think of is Mike Vick who is not a great quarterback.

Steve Young would be what I would call the fastest great quarterback. I'm not sure I would say that he had elite speed, but he was more mobile than any of the others in the top 10 of all time. Most were true drop back passers, and the others were usually in the WCO at one point or another.

[GoColts8818]

Not my point

Elite speed does not automatically make someone a great quarterback. They have to equally posess great skills in other positions. RG3's speed seems to be the "Wow" factor.

I'm looking for a quarterback that came into the league with 'elite speed' that went on to become a great quarterback. The closest I can think of is Mike Vick who is not a great quarterback.

Warren Moon or Randle Cunningham might be better. Honeslty Steve McNair was probably the best "running" QB in the NFL.

[Smitto]

Show me an NFL QB with elite speed that went on to become a great quarterback. I'd love to hear it.

Well obviously right now Cam Newton has ripped it up for a rookie... which is almost like the mold of RGIII, except Cam is much bigger... this isnt the 80s or 90s QB's are getting much better.

[Smitto]

Show me an NFL QB with elite speed that went on to become a great quarterback. I'd love to hear it.

Well obviously right now Cam Newton has ripped it up for a rookie... which is almost like the mold of RGIII, except Cam is much bigger... this isnt the 80s or 90s QB's are getting much better.

[Balzer40]

Come on now of course you have to be good to get that hype, but at the same time if you never got that hype ppl wouldnt know you... if keenum was getting that hype ppl would say he is the better QB... Mate if a rumor came out that GM was going down the drain who would by shares from them? and vice versa as well... point is what pply say has a big impact on where your drafted.

Which is one of the reasons why some analysts suspected the dolphins GM was playing down Luck so he could fall to them.. but he came out and denied that.

There's also a reason why Luck is getting the hype and Keenum is not. Its not like they flipped a coin and Luck was the winner. GM's and scout have been watching every single snap all these QB's have taken throughout the entire career and they have determined that Luck is without doubt the best prospect out there.

[WSO]

Steve Young would be what I would call the fastest great quarterback. I'm not sure I would say that he had elite speed, but he was more mobile than any of the others in the top 10 of all time. Most were true drop back passers, and the others were usually in the WCO at one point or another.

But we can agree that Steve wasn't considered great because of his speed right? Yeah he rushed for a lot of yards but he had the other tools that made him great. He was a phenomenal passer.

[GoColts8818]

Well obviously right now Cam Newton has ripped it up for a rookie... which is almost like the mold of RGIII, except Cam is much bigger... this isnt the 80s or 90s QB's are getting much better.

This much bigger thing is important though. One of the biggest concerns I've seen about RGIII is concerns if he is big enough to take the hits that come with being a running QB in the NFL or if he'll get beat up.

[Smitto]

"hype" is based of how talented a player it is. It's not some magical thing that is attatched to select players. Luck and RG3 are "hyped" because they are very talented. Keenum is not "hyped" because he lacks some of the talent of the top prospects such as mechanics etc.

"hype" = talent

of course Tim Tebow makes me look like an dipstick with how hyped he was :\

I dont agree with this but whatever... tim tebow was not even close to how hyped luck is... ppl even said he is not a 1st round pick

[FireJimCaldwell]

But we can agree that Steve wasn't considered great because of his speed right? Yeah he rushed for a lot of yards but he had the other tools that made him great. He was a phenomenal passer.

I would say that it was a key contributor. If you handcuffed him to being forced to stay in the pocket he would still be a good quarterback, but he and Rice made a lot of plays on the move outside of the pocket.

[WSO]

Warren Moon or Randle Cunningham might be better. Honeslty Steve McNair was probably the best "running" QB in the NFL.

eh

I'm hard pressed to consider any of those quarterbacks great, good yes, but not great

FJC made Steve Young as an example which is a great example of someone who uitilized his speed but it wasn't his speed that made him great. It certainly didn't make him worse!

[ruksak]

His dad was RG2 hence why he is called RG3... never thought that would be hard to comprehend

Should I know his dad?

[Superman]

Not my point

Elite speed does not automatically make someone a great quarterback. They have to equally posess great skills in other positions. RG3's speed seems to be the "Wow" factor.

I'm looking for a quarterback that came into the league with 'elite speed' that went on to become a great quarterback. The closest I can think of is Mike Vick who is not a great quarterback.

Look at RGIII's passing numbers. That's the real "Wow" factor. Take a look...

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/378497/robert-griffin-iii

He can sling it. He's a college quarterback, so the question is how will his passing ability translate into the NFL. His speed is just an additional asset.

I've only seen him play a little bit. He throws a nice deep ball. He's not as polished as Luck or even some of the other guys who are available. Cam Newton wasn't very polished either, but he did fine as a rookie. I don't know how RGIII will project as a pro, but I'll have a keen eye on him at the Combine.

Seems to me like you're dismissing him because he's fast. And I'm just saying that I think his speed is just a bonus. If he were a sorry passer, no one would be interested in his speed. But in fact, he looks like a pretty good quarterback. He's not Terrelle Pryor. His passing numbers are twice as good as Michael Vick's. I think he stands a pretty good chance of being a good pro.

[Superman]

I dont agree with this but whatever... tim tebow was not even close to how hyped luck is... ppl even said he is not a 1st round pick

Tebow's hype made him a first round pick.

[WSO]

Look at RGIII's passing numbers. That's the real "Wow" factor. Take a look...

http://espn.go.com/c...ert-griffin-iii

He can sling it. He's a college quarterback, so the question is how will his passing ability translate into the NFL. His speed is just an additional asset.

I've only seen him play a little bit. He throws a nice deep ball. He's not as polished as Luck or even some of the other guys who are available. Cam Newton wasn't very polished either, but he did fine as a rookie. I don't know how RGIII will project as a pro, but I'll have a keen eye on him at the Combine.

Seems to me like you're dismissing him because he's fast. And I'm just saying that I think his speed is just a bonus. If he were a sorry passer, no one would be interested in his speed. But in fact, he looks like a pretty good quarterback. He's not Terrelle Pryor. His passing numbers are twice as good as Michael Vick's. I think he stands a pretty good chance of being a good pro.

I'm not dismissing RG3

I am arguing that RG3 is not better than luck. Passing numbers in college are nice but don't exactly translate to the pros. Luck's numbers by any means are not great but his numbers are not why he is projected as the best QB.

[Superman]

I'm not dismissing RG3

I am arguing that RG3 is not better than luck. Passing numbers in college are nice but don't exactly translate to the pros. Luck's numbers by any means are not great but his numbers are not why he is projected as the best QB.

I bring up his passing numbers to highlight the fact that he's not just a speed machine. He can throw it. Like you said (and like I said) that may or may not translate to the pros. Don't know yet. His numbers don't make him better than Luck. But they do point to the fact that he's not just what might be called a "running quarterback."

[Balzer40]

I don't even know why passing numbers are even a conversation. A lot of college QB's can throw a nice ball but who cares? I brought up Colt Brennan in another thread, he broke all kinds of passing records in college but he didn't make it in the NFL. Passing stats are just one very small factor in evaluating college QB's.

[WSO]

I would say that it was a key contributor. If you handcuffed him to being forced to stay in the pocket he would still be a good quarterback, but he and Rice made a lot of plays on the move outside of the pocket.

But I see that as mobility, not speed

Rodgers is a darn mobile quarterback but runs something like a 4.7

everyone is wow'ed by RG3's olympic speed which is impressive but does give him the upper edge over Luck? This is where I get confused

[WSO]

I bring up his passing numbers to highlight the fact that he's not just a speed machine. He can throw it. Like you said (and like I said) that may or may not translate to the pros. Don't know yet. His numbers don't make him better than Luck. But they do point to the fact that he's not just what might be called a "running quarterback."

We actually agree here, Smitto on the other hand is convincing me that because of RG3's higher completion percentage he is a more accurate QB than Luck which I completely disagree.

I don't think he is a running QB but I don't think just because he has blazing speed, he should be taken over Luck which is somewhat what Smitto is arguing.

[Tony Sullivan]

He was drafted to do for our franchise what Peyton Manning did for it, heck it was because of how bad George was that set us up to get Peyton Manning in the first place. Jeff George was a bust.

Got ya I seem to be mistaken about Bartkowski. Like I said I hadn't heard of him.

I didn't bring up anything Luck said...I brought up what Peyton Manning said.

He may not have worked out for us in the 3 or 4 years we had him but he went on to have a couple of great seasons with Oakland, Minny and Atlanta.

[GoColts8818]

There's also a reason why Luck is getting the hype and Keenum is not. Its not like they flipped a coin and Luck was the winner. GM's and scout have been watching every single snap all these QB's have taken throughout the entire career and they have determined that Luck is without doubt the best prospect out there.

That's where things like the system they run and how they play the poistion come into play and those are things that aren't going to show up on stat sheets.

Andrew Luck is praised all the time for playing in a pro-style system. That seems to be something that impresses NFL scouts. I know people who like RGIII try to argue the system Luck has played in isn't a pro-style system but I laid out a very detailed explanation including quotes from several NFL people where they said Luck's system is a pro-style system vs. a college spreed system like what RGIII plays in. That's not to say that RGIII wont be a good QB because he played in a spreed system. Cam Newton would be the latest example of a college QB who played in a spreed system and worked well in the NFL. However there have been many QBs who had huge numbers in the spreed system in college that didn't work in the NFL.

Luck also impresses scouts because of how he plays the system. He runs a lot of the call his own play at the line like Peyton Manning does. There aren't any other NFL level QBs that do that to the level Manning does let alone college QBs. It's like one scout i saw talking about Andrew Luck who said he reminds him of Peyton Manning, not the college Manning but the pro Manning. The scouts know what they are saying when they say something like that.

Also the fact Luck has played this year without a star WR has impressed the scouts. I don't know how many times I've heard people say Luck's best WR is playing in the NFL this year. Yet Luck still put up very impressive numbers for any QB when his best recievers were tightends and running backs. That's not to say RGIII is a product of the talent around him because I don't believe that either but it seems like most people who follow this stuff for a living agree RGIII has better WRs than Luck did this year.

Look Luck has been the microscope for two years now (don't forget people said he would be the top pick if he came out last year) which means he's been studied very hard with people looking for flaws in his game and for reasons not to take him number one overall. Yet all the exports all agree without question Luck is the best player in this draft and the best QB to come along in a draft in a long time. In all my years watching the NFL I've seen two guys viewed that much of can't misses at the QB spot, Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan and while Ryan isn't as good as Manning is yet he's often compared to a younger Manning and is probably the best of the "young" QBs in the NFL. I know it's people second nature to question things like this but maybe we should trust the exports on this.

If people want to disagree that is all their right to do so but you know what a lot of people said a lot of the samethings about Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning, he was the better pure athlete and had better stats his senior year. That's why he flew up the draft board. Sometimes when you are trying to judge someone you have to look at bit beyond the numbers and look at why he's putting up those kinds of numbers. With that said I am NOT saying RGIII will be a bust like Leaf. I think Leaf's biggest problem was mental issues and I don't think RGIII has anything close to those.

[JoKeR]

I bring up his passing numbers to highlight the fact that he's not just a speed machine. He can throw it. Like you said (and like I said) that may or may not translate to the pros. Don't know yet. His numbers don't make him better than Luck. But they do point to the fact that he's not just what might be called a "running quarterback."

Very true but I noticed in the 2 games I watched he runs when pressured, sometimes gives up on the pass early. During the Fiesta Bowl Luck was being sacked and he threw fast ball right on the money while falling forward.

[WSO]

Look I just don't understand how one can argue RG3 is a better prospect than Luck. Key word "prospect".

I had someone else tell me earlier Kirk Cousins will be taken over Luck by the Colts (When they are both available)

That is absolutely absurd.

[FireJimCaldwell]

But I see that as mobility, not speed

Rodgers is a darn mobile quarterback but runs something like a 4.7

everyone is wow'ed by RG3's olympic speed which is impressive but does give him the upper edge over Luck? This is where I get confused

I get what you are saying. Manning & Brady are likely clocking in the low 5.1's or what have you but have exceptional pocket presence and mobility in the pocket. Luck reminds me more of Eli Manning than he does Peyton. Eli's a little quicker and such.

I think if one could calculate that all other attributes were entirely equal that a faster quarterback is better than a slower one. Someone mentioned Vick. Elite speed, not very accurate in most cases, gets happy feet with pressure and has only looked decent inside the West Coast offense and Andy Reid.

I see RGIII as a far better passer than Vick and its clear he is smarter.

[Balzer40]

That's where things like the system they run and how they play the poistion come into play and those are things that aren't going to show up on stat sheets.

Andrew Luck is praised all the time for playing in a pro-style system. That seems to be something that impresses NFL scouts. I know people who like RGIII try to argue the system Luck has played in isn't a pro-style system but I laid out a very detailed explanation including quotes from several NFL people where they said Luck's system is a pro-style system vs. a college spreed system like what RGIII plays in. That's not to say that RGIII wont be a good QB because he played in a spreed system. Cam Newton would be the latest example of a college QB who played in a spreed system and worked well in the NFL. However there have been many QBs who had huge numbers in the spreed system in college that didn't work in the NFL.

Luck also impresses scouts because of how he plays the system. He runs a lot of the call his own play at the line like Peyton Manning does. There aren't any other NFL level QBs that do that to the level Manning does let alone college QBs. It's like one scout i saw talking about Andrew Luck who said he reminds him of Peyton Manning, not the college Manning but the pro Manning. The scouts know what they are saying when they say something like that.

Also the fact Luck has played this year without a star WR has impressed the scouts. I don't know how many times I've heard people say Luck's best WR is playing in the NFL this year. Yet Luck still put up very impressive numbers for any QB when his best recievers were tightends and running backs. That's not to say RGIII is a product of the talent around him because I don't believe that either but it seems like most people who follow this stuff for a living agree RGIII has better WRs than Luck did this year.

Look Luck has been the microscope for two years now (don't forget people said he would be the top pick if he came out last year) which means he's been studied very hard with people looking for flaws in his game and for reasons not to take him number one overall. Yet all the exports all agree without question Luck is the best player in this draft and the best QB to come along in a draft in a long time. In all my years watching the NFL I've seen two guys viewed that much of can't misses at the QB spot, Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan and while Ryan isn't as good as Manning is yet he's often compared to a younger Manning and is probably the best of the "young" QBs in the NFL. I know it's people second nature to question things like this but maybe we should trust the exports on this.

If people want to disagree that is all their right to do so but you know what a lot of people said a lot of the samethings about Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning, he was the better pure athlete and had better stats his senior year. That's why he flew up the draft board. Sometimes when you are trying to judge someone you have to look at bit beyond the numbers and look at why he's putting up those kinds of numbers. With that said I am NOT saying RGIII will be a bust like Leaf. I think Leaf's biggest problem was mental issues and I don't think RGIII has anything close to those.

I completely agree. I think there are people that truely just resent the hype that Luck receives(which is unbelievably childish IMO) so they find any excuse they can to degrade the guy. He is the epitomy of professionalism and maturity for a college athlete. I have said all along that RG3 could become a good QB but the fact that he's never learned to read a defense in 3 yrs. at Baylor is kind of concerning IMO.

[Balzer40]

Look I just don't understand how one can argue RG3 is a better prospect than Luck. Key word "prospect".

I had someone else tell me earlier Kirk Cousins will be taken over Luck by the Colts (When they are both available)

That is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, you almost just have to kind of ignore that guy the best you possibly can.

[JColts72]

Because Mannig does not want to be replaced by any rookie; that has to gall him. It has to get to a point where people in Coltland begin to stop tip toeing around Manning and not waste an opprtunity to drfat Luck or Griffin; they really are the only 2 QB's to pick for 2 teams, and one will be us.

[GoColts8818]

He may not have worked out for us in the 3 or 4 years we had him but he went on to have a couple of great seasons with Oakland, Minny and Atlanta.

Take a look at Jeff George's career numbers and you tell me if you honestly think he holds up well when compared to "non busts" in the NFL

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GeorJe00.htm

He had A great year with the Vikings and it came during a three stretch where all Vikings QBs were putting up eye popping numbers because they were playing with Moss and Carter. I think that had more to do with the WRs around the QB than it did the QBs themselves.

For the Raiders he probably hadthe best single season of his career but it was one year there out of how many where he probably lived up to the idea he was once a former top overall pick? Even then he didn't produce in the most important stat, wins.

As for Atlanta he was mediocare at best. Again look at his numbers.

The biggest problem that did George in every where he went was his attitude which is why if you notice out side of here his longest stent with a team was two years and three games. Top overall picks at QBs are guys you can build your team around. George was never that and when it was tried the teams fell apart very quickly. Generally speaking guys that you can't build your team around and are top overall picks in the draft are viewed as busts. He might not be the worst overall top pick as a QB but make no mistake he is viewed by most as a bust.

[nugs22]

I know it's a cliche' but, it's the system they played in college. Moore & Keenum were in the pass happy offenses, where Griffin did have some run support to help his cause, but, played against porous defenses in the Big 12. Luck, on the other hand, played in a pro set offense (also against so-so defenses) that allowed him to rely more on the run, therefore keeping his passing numbers on this planet. No NFL team is going to let their "speed" QB's roam free against big, quick, defenses play after play. Cam Newton will settle down once he gets whacked a few times. Indy will have to go the way of the big, blocking TE, A bigger O-line, which they worked on some this yr, & the bigger, (not huge, but Ray Rice like) good hands back. This is kind of diverting away from Manning's smaller offense, but, how much longer are we going to have him? They cannot pass up on an Andrew Luck.

[turner46992]

I dont want luck either, Im not a fan of lucks...Every highlight I have seen of the kid...he runs more than he throws. If I can find the links Ill post, so everyone sees what I see...

But what i am saying is, IS HE OUR GUY? I see him run more than he passes, does this mean he cant pass that well, because all the highlights I see are of him hitting receivers in busted coverage or is it because he would rather tuck and run, because he isnt accurate...I dont know. I dont know anything about him...and I havent seen anything in the highlights that makes me believe he is the next man for Indy...

Irsay will do what he wants with this draft and all the fans will like regardless.

[Superman]

I don't even know why passing numbers are even a conversation. A lot of college QB's can throw a nice ball but who cares? I brought up Colt Brennan in another thread, he broke all kinds of passing records in college but he didn't make it in the NFL. Passing stats are just one very small factor in evaluating college QB's.

If you're pegging someone as a "running quarterback," his passing numbers become especially relevant.