So There's Tension Between Grigson And Pagano?

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Is no one going to address the fact that Pagano is listed as a DT on Rotoworld?  That's really the most important thing I took away from that page...

That has to be the reason why belichek loves to run against us!

[Jules]

Sounds like stuff I could read in a gossip magazine.

[indy1888]

I thought there was mention of this several months back too from another source and they think it started over deflategate.   So i guess i would not be surprised if it is indeed true. Usually when there is smoke, there is fire with these things. The issue likely goes beyond the deflategate fiasco though, more likely it is the fact that Pagano and Grigson disagreed on either draft picks or free agent acquisitions, especially on defense. Pagano is under fire to fix the D right now, if he doesn't think he has the right players it's reasonable for him to be ticked off.   Also, the report from Phillip B Wilson that the Harrison for Shipley switch last year was made by Grigson could also be a part of it. The coaching staff was not fond of that move when it was made.

[zibby43]

Watch the press conference with Pagano and Grigson after they drafted Dorsett. You can tell Pagano wasn't as excited about the pick as Grigson. And think about it. Not only is Pagano a defensive minded coach, he's also a DB guru.

You're sitting there in the low 20s and Landon Collins is there. He's the top safety, and Pagano coached guys like Ed Reed and Bernard Pollard, who were both physical safeties. I think if it was his call he would have taken Collins. Don't get me wrong, I like the selection of Dorsett and I'm sure Chuck did too in a sense. And Geathers had just as high of a ceiling, but I'm looking at it from Chuck's view. He might have also liked to get Malcolm Brown as well, but given his DB roots, he probably would've been jumping for joy for Collins. Watch the pressed conference and pay attention to Pagano's tone and expression and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

Collins is not a good 3-4 safety (his alma mater, Abama, runs the power 4-3 a lot, particularly when preparing for run formations).  He excels playing close to the line of scrimmage.  And that is exactly what he'll do for the Giants.

 

Landry is a perfect example of why the Colts didn't go for Collins.  Landry stinks in coverage but he's a decent run defender (when he actually decides to try for a fundamental tackle instead of a kill shot that instead goes as a whiff). 

 

For their 3-4, the Colts like to use interchangeable safeties with similar skill sets. 

[BOTT]

Collins is not a good 3-4 safety (his alma mater, Abama, runs the power 4-3 a lot, particularly when preparing for run formations).  He excels playing close to the line of scrimmage.  And that is exactly what he'll do for the Giants.

 

Landry is a perfect example of why the Colts didn't go for Collins.  Landry stinks in coverage but he's a decent run defender (when he actually decides to try for a fundamental tackle instead of a kill shot that instead goes as a whiff). 

 

For their 3-4, the Colts like to use interchangeable safeties with similar skill sets.

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[krunk]

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LOL!

[Esquire59]

I'll likely get flamed a bit but intend only to add to the conversation. I remain woefully disappointed in Dungy. I feel he underachieved significantly. His awful Tampa-2 was conquered in the early 00's. He perhaps wasted Manning's prime or, at a minimum, underachieved. Dungy was consistently out-coached in playoffs. Belichik, Cowher, Turner. We had better teams than those coaches. Irsay will never pin it on Saint Dungy. But he's been clear that the Polian/Dungy era won't be duplicated (although I'm scratching my head over the TY deal - and not because I dislike TY).

Did y'all see Irsays "conversation" with Grigsy in the locker room in Foxboro post AFCCG? His face was maroon and lip reading produced an average ^^^ once per seven words. Irsay clearly won't stand for underachieving. While, Patriots were simply better than us last year, getting embarrassed by the same team twice in a year in the exact same game-plan/manner is awful coaching.

I have heard rumors (smoke where fire) that Irsay isn't crazy about #ChuckStrong. Note, I didn't say he disliked him. Just have heard that he has issues with Pagano's coaching and has let Grigsy know.

Those that agree with me will be countered with Pagano's record, never not made the playoffs, etc. We're "spoiled" and so on. You know what, maybe we are. But I am terrified at the prospect of winning the AFC-S annually and getting beat in the middle of the playoffs by better coached squads. Did y'all get sick of losing in the playoffs in the Dungy era? I'm terrified at wasting Luck on getting out-coached in the playoffs.

Why not see what #ChuckStrong does this season? (Much like I wish Grigsy did with TY before he was "Rosenhaused"). Put the pressure on Pagano. It's certainly arguable that we have the best team in the NFL. Why not expect a trip to the SB? Why not hesitate at the risk of annual under-achievement?

I wish Chuck Pagano an awesome season, a trip to the SB, and an earned extension. It's fairly clear to me that Grigson may have orders from above to see what happens in 2015.

[Johnhenry]

I'll likely get flamed a bit but intend only to add to the conversation. I remain woefully disappointed in Dungy. I feel he underachieved significantly. His awful Tampa-2 was conquered in the early 00's. He perhaps wasted Manning's prime or, at a minimum, underachieved. Dungy was consistently out-coached in playoffs. Belichik, Cowher, Turner. We had better teams than those coaches. Irsay will never pin it on Saint Dungy. But he's been clear that the Polian/Dungy era won't be duplicated (although I'm scratching my head over the TY deal - and not because I dislike TY).

Did y'all see Irsays "conversation" with Grigsy in the locker room in Foxboro post AFCCG? His face was maroon and lip reading produced an average ^^^ once per seven words. Irsay clearly won't stand for underachieving. While, Patriots were simply better than us last year, getting embarrassed by the same team twice in a year in the exact same game-plan/manner is awful coaching.

I have heard rumors (smoke where fire) that Irsay isn't crazy about #ChuckStrong. Note, I didn't say he disliked him. Just have heard that he has issues with Pagano's coaching and has let Grigsy know.

Those that agree with me will be countered with Pagano's record, never not made the playoffs, etc. We're "spoiled" and so on. You know what, maybe we are. But I am terrified at the prospect of winning the AFC-S annually and getting beat in the middle of the playoffs by better coached squads. Did y'all get sick of losing in the playoffs in the Dungy era? I'm terrified at wasting Luck on getting out-coached in the playoffs.

Why not see what #ChuckStrong does this season? (Much like I wish Grigsy did with TY before he was "Rosenhaused"). Put the pressure on Pagano. It's certainly arguable that we have the best team in the NFL. Why not expect a trip to the SB? Why not hesitate at the risk of annual under-achievement?

I wish Chuck Pagano an awesome season, a trip to the SB, and an earned extension. It's fairly clear to me that Grigson may have orders from above to see what happens in 2015.

The Colts never won squat before Dungy came here. That defense won one Super Bowl and probably should have won another. Polian just went into the HoF. Dungy will get there eventually. Who knows if Grigs or Pagano will ever get a Super Bowl. I happen to think that they will but that won't take aways from what Dungy accomplished in Indy. He was a winner and it is as simple as that. I don't think the Colts are the best team in the NFL. I think they are on the rise but there are still problems with that Oline and Dline. I think they have a chance of being the best in three years with more good drafts and depending on how the signing of our stars works out. Go Blue.....

[zibby43]

?

 

 

LOL!

 

What's the confusion?

 

I was explaining why Collins wasn't a good fit for the Colts' 3-4.  He's a very solid "in-the-box" safety when playing the power 4-3 (which is what he played in at Alabama and what he will play in for the Giants, the team that selected him). 

 

The Colts had a safety with a similar skill set in Landry.  Although Collins is a better overall talent, his questionable coverage skills probably played a role in the Colts passing on selecting him.  He would've been asked to play further away from the LOS and much more often.

[12dalegend]

This article speaks about the extension as if this was just offered to him yesterday.  The extension was offered back in March and Pagano turned it down.  It's not new news.  This stuff has already been discussed to be honest. 

Youʻre right, Chuck turned it down because he wants to see if they make it to the SB then the the ball will be in his hands #PAYDAY 

[mvbighead]

Watch the press conference with Pagano and Grigson after they drafted Dorsett. You can tell Pagano wasn't as excited about the pick as Grigson. And think about it. Not only is Pagano a defensive minded coach, he's also a DB guru.

You're sitting there in the low 20s and Landon Collins is there. He's the top safety, and Pagano coached guys like Ed Reed and Bernard Pollard, who were both physical safeties. I think if it was his call he would have taken Collins. Don't get me wrong, I like the selection of Dorsett and I'm sure Chuck did too in a sense. And Geathers had just as high of a ceiling, but I'm looking at it from Chuck's view. He might have also liked to get Malcolm Brown as well, but given his DB roots, he probably would've been jumping for joy for Collins. Watch the pressed conference and pay attention to Pagano's tone and expression and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

I'm just referring to the video immediately following the pick.  He sure seemed happy to me, so I didn't figure he was bent out of shape about it.  He may have different body language in the press conference, but who knows what that is related to.  Certainly could have been the pick, could've been a different discussion.  Who knows.

 

As for Chuck being a DB guy, meh.  Talent can come in ANY round.  Maybe he wanted Collins, but who knows.  For me, Collins seems too much like a run stuffer and less of a pass defender.  That, to me, doesn't seem like his type of guy.  Reed is a good example of a great ball guy.  Pollard not so much.  And Pollard was more of a freeby given that he got cut elsewhere for simply being a run defender (if I recall correctly).

[Superman]

He's the top safety, and Pagano coached guys like Ed Reed and Bernard Pollard, who were both physical safeties

 

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Collins is primarily a box safety, and was rarely used in the kind of coverage assignments that the Colts want their safeties to play. He's not a "top safety." 

 

Ed Reed is a free safety, who roamed the field and lined up everywhere, but was usually not playing up close to the line of scrimmage. He was more of a coverage safety who used his range to pester QBs deep down the field. He couldn't be more different from Pollard. And he's different from Collins, also.

[Defjamz26]

?

 

Collins is primarily a box safety, and was rarely used in the kind of coverage assignments that the Colts want their safeties to play. He's not a "top safety." 

 

Ed Reed is a free safety, who roamed the field and lined up everywhere, but was usually not playing up close to the line of scrimmage. He was more of a coverage safety who used his range to pester QBs deep down the field. He couldn't be more different from Pollard. And he's different from Collins, also.

While I agree with your assessment, I was looking at it from the coaches eyes. Who knows what Pagano really felt but I would guess that he'd see potential in Collins for the Colts. I'm not saying he is Reed or Pollard but they were difference makers for the Ravens at safety. Maybe he thought Collins could be the same.

But like I said, it could have been someone else he wanted, not specifically Collins. I just said him because of Chuck's DB background. But maybe it was Goldman he wanted, or even Brown. Pagano lots guys lineman too. A lot of the time he's at pro days or doing PW it's with D-Lineman.

But the bottom line I was trying to get out in my post was that the only tension I could believe they're is between Grigs and Pagano would be over draft picks. Even if not this year's, than maybe some in the past. Pagano is due for an extension but hasn't gotten it yet so he probably feels like he's on the hot seat. But I'm sure part of him feels that they don't have the talent they should to be more competitive. If so, it's natural to assume there'd be dissention about draft picks. Maybe even over FA signings.

That's just my too sense though. They're isn't any visible sign of tension between the too, but if there was it'd be regarding talent acquisition. Specifically draft picks.

[lollygagger8]

[Superman]

While I agree with your assessment, I was looking at it from the coaches eyes. Who knows what Pagano really felt but I would guess that he'd see potential in Collins for the Colts. I'm not saying he is Reed or Pollard but they were difference makers for the Ravens at safety. Maybe he thought Collins could be the same.

But like I said, it could have been someone else he wanted, not specifically Collins. I just said him because of Chuck's DB background. But maybe it was Goldman he wanted, or even Brown. Pagano lots guys lineman too. A lot of the time he's at pro days or doing PW it's with D-Lineman.

But the bottom line I was trying to get out in my post was that the only tension I could believe they're is between Grigs and Pagano would be over draft picks. Even if not this year's, than maybe some in the past. Pagano is due for an extension but hasn't gotten it yet so he probably feels like he's on the hot seat. But I'm sure part of him feels that they don't have the talent they should to be more competitive. If so, it's natural to assume there'd be dissention about draft picks. Maybe even over FA signings.

That's just my too sense though. They're isn't any visible sign of tension between the too, but if there was it'd be regarding talent acquisition. Specifically draft picks.

 

I feel like you're kind of making all that up, though. I don't think there's any evidence that Pagano disliked the Dorsett pick, or would have preferred another player. As a matter of fact, when you listen to Pagano's pre-draft comments, he's very deferential to the scouts and Grigson, since they watch more film and spend more time on the road and working players out. If he really, really wanted a player, maybe he'd bang the table for him, but I don't think any tension that might have existed between Grigson and Pagano would be on the basis of Pagano preferring any defensive player in the first round. 

 

I don't know that for a fact, but your theory is entirely speculative.

 

And as for Pagano's contract status, he's as responsible for that as anyone on the Colts end. He was offered an extension, he chose not to accept it. He's betting on himself, by choice. It's not like they refused to offer him anything and told him to coach out his contract. 

[Defjamz26]

I feel like you're kind of making all that up, though. I don't think there's any evidence that Pagano disliked the Dorsett pick, or would have preferred another player. As a matter of fact, when you listen to Pagano's pre-draft comments, he's very deferential to the scouts and Grigson, since they watch more film and spend more time on the road and working players out. If he really, really wanted a player, maybe he'd bang the table for him, but I don't think any tension that might have existed between Grigson and Pagano would be on the basis of Pagano preferring any defensive player in the first round. 

 

I don't know that for a fact, but your theory is entirely speculative.

 

And as for Pagano's contract status, he's as responsible for that as anyone on the Colts end. He was offered an extension, he chose not to accept it. He's betting on himself, by choice. It's not like they refused to offer him anything and told him to coach out his contract.

I'm not saying he disliked the pick. But maybe he just wasn't jumping for joy over it. With his comments about how he knows if he doesn't get the D fixed, someone else will, I'd assume maybe he had his eyes on a few defensive guys. But you're right. All speculative. I'm just trying to put some things into context in regards to the topic.

Who knows though. Maybe he would have liked an offensive lineman. He leaves scouting to Guys and his team but I'm sure he is up to date on prospects. They do send him out to pro days and stuff. Plus he's always taking notes at the combine. But I wasn't trying to sound like a know it all. Just adding food for thought for arguments sake.