Surprise! Pats play fast and loose with the rules!

[Iancolts]

Yeah its like subbing players in for offense. Same idea so you have to give time for defense to counter.

[PotatoHead]

wonder if we'll see this tactic in either of today's games?

[SteelCityColt]

wonder if we'll see this tactic in either of today's games?

I'd honestly doubt it as this smacks of something they drew up and saved for the playoffs, like Edelman's TD throw. Unless any of the teams have already looked to themselves, even then not sure they'd dare use now.

[The Old Crow]

Harbaugh was saying that the Pats snapped the ball immediately after it was announced who was ineligible. Other words , they didn't have time to identify where "said player" was lined up. No one has said this is illegal , but it's understandable that harbaugh was lobbing for a few seconds to see where the ineligible receiver was lined up. Comprende ?

One of Harbaugh's points which was legitimate was that the refs were confused also. No one had seen this, and the way it was utilized. I would have called a TO, or ran on the field like John did to find out what was going on. It was an interesting variation of a hurry up offense utilizing eligible and ineligible receivers. I'm not a rules buff, so what can I say ? Every team is looking for an edge.

[Narcosys]

Did any of you whiners have a problem with Peyton quick snapping to catch the 12th man? Didn't think so.

How is that remotely the same? Everyone does that and isn't shady in the least?

[nburgmei]

I was rooting for the Ravens and almost never root for the Pats unless it in some way benefits the Colts or Manning. However, I'm just not seeing a problem with the call. The Pats knew the rules and the Ravens, and maybe the refs, did not. I don't even feel like this was bending the rules. It was a completely legal use of a somewhat obscure rule. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Did any of you whiners have a problem with Peyton quick snapping to catch the 12th man? Didn't think so.

 

If the offense doesn't substitute, but the D does, the O can 'quick snap' and draw a penalty.  It is one of the benefits of a hurry up (cause mismatches and/or tire the D) so they want to sub, but can't because the O hasn't.If the D does sub, the O sees it and makes them 'pay'.  Legal and totally different from this scenario. This one allows the O to sub, but confuses the D into not knowing if/who to sub.  And who to cover once the ball is placed into position.

[jvan1973]

I actually have no problem with those plays. I never knew it was an option. I'm surprised I've never seen it before

[The Old Crow]

I was rooting for the Ravens and almost never root for the Pats unless it in some way benefits the Colts or Manning. However, I'm just not seeing a problem with the call. The Pats knew the rules and the Ravens, and maybe the refs, did not. I don't even feel like this was bending the rules. It was a completely legal use of a somewhat obscure rule.

I'm not complaining about it. I wish we would have come up with one last trick on the last drive.

[dgambill]

It was within the rules. The problem is with the refs not calling who the ineligible receiver is while the team is in the huddle. We see this all the time....the player comes on the field and reports being eligible (or in this case ineligible). As long as the referees report who the player is IMMEDIATELY then there should be no issues. But if the offense is already lined up and thats when they are reporting the player...to me you have to stand over the ball for a moment or two to give the defense a chance to substitute or identify the player. This is just makes sense. I don't think the Pats did anything dirty or illegal...I think the refs just mishandled this affair. I also don't think the refs should penalize the coach for asking for an explaination. They didn't penalize Dez Bryant for running out there I don't see how you penalize a coach asking for an explaination. That or you can tell him to call a timeout or get off the field. All in all I just think this was some poor officiating. I don't think it changed the outcome of the game regardless. Ravens had their chances to win the game and Brady played excellent bringing his team back and Bill's defense in the second half stepped up at some crucial times to get the final stop. Going to be hard to beat NE....IMO they had their bad game and still moved on....good luck to anyone else beating them. They had some fortunate bounces that didn't get away from them on their fumbles....now that their bad game is behind them...I look for them to run through whomever they play next week.

[Superman]

Typically, the Refs sometimes make such calls over the P.A. system.  Most often when a player is eligible.  The competition committee might make it a requirement to do so on all players declaring eligible or ineligible by number over the P.A. system before allowing the snap of the ball.  They might even be given the  mandate to do so the rest of this post season until it is officially addressed in the rulebook.

 

Yeah, I think if a player lined up in a normally ineligible position is going to be eligible -- in this case, a TE lined up two spots from center, where the LT normally would line up -- that player should have to declare. The Colts scored a TD against the Pats with Castonzo lined up in his normal LT spot, which is unusual; usually an eligible tackle lines up in the TE spot. Castonzo had to declare because he wears an ineligible number, but I could see them adjusting that so that anyone who lines up two spots over from center has to declare, if he's eligible. 

[ViriLudant]

The Patriots players DID declare.

On the THREE times that this happened.

[Blue Horseshoe]

I thought it was a brilliant play.  That is one of the things Belichick does better than anyone, finding loopholes that no one else is thinking about at the time.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The Patriots players DID declare.

On the THREE times that this happened.

 

the question is, when during the 24 second clock was it declared, and was D given a chance to lineup after the declaration and before the ball was placed in play?  Harbaugh feels there wasn't, and competition committee will get it for review in the offseason.  It seems to circumvent Rule 5, article 10.  There may be a section D added to that next year.  We'll see...

[TAPLOOK]

If the offense doesn't substitute, but the D does, the O can 'quick snap' and draw a penalty.  It is one of the benefits of a hurry up (cause mismatches and/or tire the D) so they want to sub, but can't because the O hasn't.If the D does sub, the O sees it and makes them 'pay'.  Legal and totally different from this scenario. This one allows the O to sub, but confuses the D into not knowing if/who to sub.  And who to cover once the ball is placed into position.

So in the spirit of the rules. Gotcha.

[SteelCityColt]

the question is, when during the 24 second clock was it declared, and was D given a chance to lineup after the declaration and before the ball was placed in play?  Harbaugh feels there wasn't, and competition committee will get it for review in the offseason.  It seems to circumvent Rule 5, article 10.  There may be a section D added to that next year.  We'll see...

In fairness to the rule makers you can't envisage every situation, why they have the committee to react to such things. I can understand Harbaugh's frustration,

[Iancolts]

Nburgmei we play the pats next. If this same thing happens to us I'm be a very mad colts fan.

[BOTT]

Not sure why this is an issue. Smart play

They shouldn't have flagged Harbaugh though. That was a big boy game no need for a cheap flag.

[GoPats]

I just have to say... if this is any other team, any other coach, the NFL world would be universally lauding this move, lol.... 

 

 

We had our chances, I'm not going to complain about the wrinkle . We have to obviously work on the back end of our defense. It's hard to lose two 14 point leads, but this secondary managed to do it. Draft pick safeties Elam and Brooks look like busts, and they'd better sign and draft many CB's. I told you guys it wouldn't be 41-7, but I was even surprised we did so well. It was an honest effort for the team we had. Joe went right after Revis and Browner and did well. That surprised me. Tom exploiting our secondary didn't surprise me, but I give him full credit for doing it .

 

GREAT game OC... when the Ravens reestablished a 14-point lead, I admit I thought it was over. 

 

Flacco came back down to earth. That's the only reason NE pulled it out. 

 

Typically, the Refs sometimes make such calls over the P.A. system.  Most often when a player is eligible.  The competition committee might make it a requirement to do so on all players declaring eligible or ineligible by number over the P.A. system before allowing the snap of the ball.  They might even be given the  mandate to do so the rest of this post season until it is officially addressed in the rulebook.

 

They did. All three times. Confirmed by ESPN's Mike Reiss as well as several people I know who were at the game. According to what I read, the Ravens had at least 10 seconds to adjust on each play.

 

I'm not knocking them for getting fooled with it once. It's pretty creative. But by the second time you've got to be smarter and adjust on the fly. 

 

 

yeah luck is a man not some ugg model little girl

 

It must be just awful to know that your team has been utterly destroyed so many times by a Ugg model little girl then. Seriously. How do you cope? 

[The Old Crow]

From what I saw he didn't have any short pass options as they were covered. I could be wrong but I don't think the deep pass was the first option? Don't forget too how cold weather effects the ball coming out of the QBs hands (both Brady and Flacco's INTs).

I will say this- I've never seen so many important plays in a game on both sides. Usually a team wins on 1-4 key plays. This game was like over a dozen key plays with NE getting the last one.

I didn't mind taking the shot so much, as leaving Brady 1:30 with 2 timeouts against our secondary, even if we scored. At 2nd and 5 , I would have at least gotten one first down, then took shots from

there. That being said, if you think you can get it in anytime, I guess you take the shot, and pray your weak secondary can hold up. This game wasn't on Flacco, it was on our secondary that totally has to be refitted next year. The guys in place played hard this year, but we just didn't have the secondary talent and depth to stop the better QB's in the league. I think the rest of the roster was Championship caliber.

That being said, every year is different , so you just can't say that we fix the secondary, we are in the Super Bowl. You lose guys, have cap issues, injuries, but Ozzie had better get help for that secondary, because it needs help. If we had a guy like Vontae Davis , paired with Jimmy Smith, that is what you need to beat NE. We could also use an Ed Reed type safety who is not a bust like Matt Elam.

[45ACP]

The Patriots players DID declare.

On the THREE times that this happened.

It was announced over the PA system.  My brother was at the game and said that the 3rd time, they even said "do not cover him, he is ineligible". It's on the Ravens coaches and the players.

[45ACP]

Not sure why this is an issue. Smart play

They shouldn't have flagged Harbaugh though. That was a big boy game no need for a cheap flag.

It only cost them 5 yards.  I agree somewhat, though.  Harbaugh's actions did nothing to the opponents, it was just to keep order. Could the officials have kept order without giving that penalty?  Probably. But it was very inexcusable and Harbaugh is FOS if he thinks anyone believes that he "had to do it" to alert the officials.  He just looks foolish more foolish.

[Cynjin]

Don't know what the controversy is, the Pats did nothing wrong with those formations. More power to them for being creative. The only thing I saw that the Pats may have got away with is that Vereen(sp?) stayed in the game after declaring himself inelegible on one play and then he was elegible on the next.

[BOTT]

It only cost them 5 yards.  I agree somewhat, though.  Harbaugh's actions did nothing to the opponents, it was just to keep order. Could the officials have kept order without giving that penalty?  Probably. But it was very inexcusable and Harbaugh is FOS if he thinks anyone believes that he "had to do it" to alert the officials.  He just looks foolish more foolish.

Oh, I was thinking it was a 15 yarder. No biggie then

[45ACP]

Oh, I was thinking it was a 15 yarder. No biggie then

Half the distance to the goal.  They were on the 10 before the penalty I believe.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I just have to say... if this is any other team, any other coach, the NFL world would be universally lauding this move, lol.... 

 

 

 

GREAT game OC... when the Ravens reestablished a 14-point lead, I admit I thought it was over. 

 

Flacco came back down to earth. That's the only reason NE pulled it out. 

 

 

They did. All three times. Confirmed by ESPN's Mike Reiss as well as several people I know who were at the game. According to what I read, the Ravens had at least 10 seconds to adjust on each play.

 

I'm not knocking them for getting fooled with it once. It's pretty creative. But by the second time you've got to be smarter and adjust on the fly. 

 

 

 

It must be just awful to know that your team has been utterly destroyed so many times by a Ugg model little girl then. Seriously. How do you cope? 

 

According to this article, the Patriots snapped the ball immediately or nearly so once the ineligible player was identified. 

 

"lining up with tight end Michael Hoomanawanui at left tackle as an eligible receiver and running back Shane Vereen reporting as an ineligible receiver. The Patriots would snap the football as soon as the ineligible receiver was announced, using the configuration on three plays."

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-baltimore-ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-tries-to-stop-new-england-patriots-deception-with-penalty-

20150110-story.html

 

So while it was announced (but I say again, it was not on the broadcast to the homes in TV land), it apparently wasn't done so in time for the D captain to properly re-align the D, according to Harbaugh.  If the tape shows this, he will file a protest with the league (they never reverse scores anyway) and that will force competition committee to further revise Rule 5, article 10.  Currently, there are 3 subsections to that rule, a,b,andc.  Next year d might be added as well because what this story above says, Rule 5 Article 10 is circumvented by the (currently legal) 4 linemen formation used by Pats. Harbaugh took an unsprtsmanlike to be sure of this-

 

"“That's why I had to go and take the penalty, to get their attention so that they would understand what was going on because they didn't understand what was going on,” Harbaugh said. “And they said that was the right thing, that they'd give us a chance to ID the eligible receivers, so we could actually get them covered. That’s why guys were open, because we didn’t ID where the eligible receivers were at."

 

So it worked, but won't next year. But while this certainly helped the Pats, the Ravens should have still been able to win, IMO.

[amfootball]

According to this article, the Patriots snapped the ball immediately or nearly so once the ineligible player was identified. 

 

"lining up with tight end Michael Hoomanawanui at left tackle as an eligible receiver and running back Shane Vereen reporting as an ineligible receiver. The Patriots would snap the football as soon as the ineligible receiver was announced, using the configuration on three plays."

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-baltimore-ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-tries-to-stop-new-england-patriots-deception-with-penalty-

20150110-story.html

 

So while it was announced (but I say again, it was not on the broadcast to the homes in TV land), it apparently wasn't done so in time for the D captain to properly re-align the D, according to Harbaugh.  If the tape shows this, he will file a protest with the league (they never reverse scores anyway) and that will force competition committee to further revise Rule 5, article 10.  Currently, there are 3 subsections to that rule, a,b,andc.  Next year d might be added as well because what this story above says, Rule 5 Article 10 is circumvented by the (currently legal) 4 linemen formation used by Pats. Harbaugh took an unsprtsmanlike to be sure of this-

 

"“That's why I had to go and take the penalty, to get their attention so that they would understand what was going on because they didn't understand what was going on,” Harbaugh said. “And they said that was the right thing, that they'd give us a chance to ID the eligible receivers, so we could actually get them covered. That’s why guys were open, because we didn’t ID where the eligible receivers were at."

 

So it worked, but won't next year. But while this certainly helped the Pats, the Ravens should have still been able to win, IMO.

There is no rule that says an offense has to wait a certain amount of time once the eligible player is announced.

[ColtsBlueFL]

There is no rule that says an offense has to wait a certain amount of time once the eligible player is announced.

 

Exactly.  That is why i was declared legal.  That is why there will be a revision next year.  Are you familiar with Rule 5 Article 10? Read-

 

 

So next year, I expect the ref to stand over the ball while the D will be able to make proper substitutions based upon the eligibility/ineligibility of certain players, just like in the situations outline in the rule already on the books.  Might even be added as section d amended to this rule.  So it is a loophole, but will be closed.  That's all Harbaugh is doing.  Getting it outlawed for next year. Because he got outsmarted, so he's taking the ball (and unsportsmanlike penalty) and going home.

 

Pats fans are already thinking he's calling Bill Polian to get the job done...      ;-)

[amfootball]

Exactly.  That is why i was declared legal.  That is why there will be a revision next year.  Are you familiar with Rule 5 Article 10? Read-

 

 

So next year, I expect the ref to stand over the ball while the D will be able to make proper substitutions based upon the eligibility/ineligibility of certain players, just like in the situations outline in the rule already on the books.  Might even be added as section d amended to this rule.  So it is a loophole, but will be closed.  That's all Harbaugh is doing.  Getting it outlawed for next year. Because he got outsmarted, so he's taking the ball (and unsportsmanlike penalty) and going home.

 

Pats fans are already thinking he's calling Bill Polian to get the job done...      ;-)

Good luck with that then. Doubt they do much with the rule. It is not the offenses responsibility to let the defense try to figure things out.

[Superman]

I just have to say... if this is any other team, any other coach, the NFL world would be universally lauding this move, lol.... 

 

You poor, persecuted Pats fans...

[Superman]

The Patriots players DID declare.

On the THREE times that this happened.

 

The eligible player lined up in an ineligible spot didn't declare. Not on the one big play up the middle to the TE. 

[amfootball]

You poor, persecuted Pats fans...

So it goes when you have spygate as part of your past. Honestly, it does not bother me anymore. I think it reflects poorly on Harbaugh more than anything. The Pats did nothing illegal and instead of calling a timeout to speak to the refs and his team he comes onto the field and screams and says he had to take the penalty to get the refs attention. And to boot the play fools him not once but three times. I kind of wish the Pats kept doing it after that drive.

[Superman]

So it goes when you have spygate as part of your past. Honestly, it does not bother me anymore. I think it reflects poorly on Harbaugh more than anything. The Pats did nothing illegal and instead of calling a timeout to speak to the refs and his team he comes onto the field and screams and says he had to take the penalty to get the refs attention. And to boot the play fools him not once but three times. I kind of wish the Pats kept doing it after that drive.

 

Did they actually gain yardage on it more than the one time?

 

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with what they did. But I do think everyone should have to report -- both the eligible player lined up in the ineligible spot, and the player made ineligible -- and I think the refs should announce it over the PA so both sidelines can hear it. I don't think that happened in this case. Let me know if I missed it.

[amfootball]

Did they actually gain yardage on it more than the one time?

 

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with what they did. But I do think everyone should have to report -- both the eligible player lined up in the ineligible spot, and the player made ineligible -- and I think the refs should announce it over the PA so both sidelines can hear it. I don't think that happened in this case. Let me know if I missed it.

Yes. They did it three times and got gains on all three. Two to Hooman and one to Edelman I think. It was announced all three times with the ref even saying over the PA that 34 is ineligible, don't cover him. lol.

[jvan1973]

Yes. They did it three times and got gains on all three. Two to Hooman and one to Edelman I think. It was announced all three times with the ref even saying over the PA that 34 is ineligible, don't cover him. lol.

The third time yes they did. They didn't the first two times

[amfootball]

The third time yes they did. They didn't the first two times

yes, they did. The ref announced it every time.

[jvan1973]

yes, they did. The ref announced it every time.

They didn't tell the defense who not to cover all three times

[amfootball]

They didn't tell the defense who not to cover all three times

lol. The ref does not have to do that. That is the funny part. It is up to the defense to figure that out from the formation. All the ref has to do is let them know who is eligible or not. What Harbaugh was mad about was not how the ref handled it as the ref did it right but the fact that he wanted the ref to delay Brady form snapping the ball because he could not figure out the formation quick enough.

[amfootball]

This is what a smart coach does, http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12156297/chuck-pagano-indianapolis-colts-consults-nfl-baltimore-ravens-new-england-patriots-alignment

 

Good for Pagano for ferreting this out before the Denver game. Too bad he didn't realize that Fox will never be as smart as Belichick. lol.

[Dustin]

The WR pass should have been called back for a penalty as well.