Mariota, Winston, and Manziel

[DougDew]

Can anybody explain to me in football terms why Mariota and Winston are more highly thought of than Manziel when it comes to skill and abilities? Leaving off-filed stuff and personalities out of this, isn't their college game about the same? Their success in college seems to be based on running around and making improve plays rather than passing from the pocket. As of now, I'm hoping that either college player goes to TN.

[Boiler_Colt]

Both have more prototypical size and arm strength. Mariota has superior athleticism and is extremely accurate and efficient with the football. Winston has experience in a pro-style offense which Manziel did not. Manziel was flashy, but had limited measurables and questions about whether or not his skills could translate into a pro-style system. I'm not on board saying that either Mariota or Winston will be a success in the NFL, but that is my two cents on what makes them better prospects at the moment.

[IndyFanInNM]

I would also like a explanation but one thing i have noticed is Marcus slides to avoid hits unlike Manziel which is always nice for your star QB

[bestQBever]

I actually disagree about Winston. I think if he can mature as a person, he has a chance to become a really good QB. Big body, almost as big as Luck's so he won't be injury prone, and his game is based on his mobility "in the pocket" He doesn't run around and take off down field too often. Mariota on the other hand is Johnny Manziel 2.0. Minus the off the field stuff.

[bestQBever]

actually now that I think about it... Winston is basically Cam Newton 2.0

[DougDew]

actually now that I think about it... Winston is basically Cam Newton 2.0

Winston doesn't look that big to me. I bet he measures less than 6.3 at the combine.

[IndyFanInNM]

A lot better then 5'11

[Boiler_Colt]

actually now that I think about it... Winston is basically Cam Newton 2.0

 

I don't think he compares to Cam. He is nowhere near the athlete as a runner that Cam is. He may be a more polished pocket passer coming out of college though.

 

If I were to do comparisons, I would say Mariota is a more accurate Colin Kaepernick (Not as strong of an arm ) and Winston is a more athletic Byron Leftwich ( he even has the same funky elongated delivery).

[DougDew]

A lot better then 5'11

I think Manziel was listed and measured at about 6.1. He looks 5'11, but I think he's actually taller.

[DougDew]

Winston is a more athletic Byron Leftwich ( he even has the same funky elongated delivery).

If that's true, he better get that delivery shortened up if he wants to succeed in the NFL, IMO

[Defjamz26]

Johnny Manziel doesn't have skills to thrive in the NFL. His skill set is extremely limited and if you were to take away his mobility, you'd have a very mediocre QB. Mariota has very nice translatable skills. He's a more polished Kaepernick. So their games aren't similar at all.

Winston isn't anything special as a QB. He's pretty much a streaky, clunky pocket passing QB who does show good poise and presence in the pocket, but no standout trait. He does have a Newton like Charisma at time though. He's about the same as EJ Manuel if you ask me. He looks terrible in this Rose Bowl right now though.

[dw49]

Mariota looks to me to be a product of the system. Mostly pretty simple one read stuff and I think he'll really need the right fit to be good in the NFL. I'll go on record and say he falls from that 1.1 spot before May.Winston I think has more prototype NFL tools than Mariota but not sure he's an elite prospect either.

[snkdy]

After tonight, Mariota is definitely ahead of Winston. What a meltdown.

[loudnproudcolt]

Both have the size which Manziel does not have.  Russell Wilson is one inch shorter than Manziel, but his body, and especially his legs are very thick. He has the size where you want it. Both Winston and Mariota have the size, and Mariota has the speed. Past that, it is a crap shoot. Mariotta is in a system offense, predetermined reads, and if not there, he is off, while looking downfield as things break down. That is where Manziel made his money, as does Mariota. In college, I believe it was 65% of the plays Manziel made were after he broke the pocket. That is his problem in NFL, already breaks the pocket way too quickly. Mariota does not do that, but learning to read through progressions, while having pocket presence is very tough to learn. Winston has an advantage since he has learned to go through progressions.

I can not think of one player from a system like Oregon, Auburn, Baylor, A&M, who has made the transition. Cam still has not, he does most of his damage with his feet still. He has developed as a passer, but until the last four games, he looked terrible this year, although he has been hurt. Still, to me he has not gone to the point where you fear him for passing. I don't know what is going to happen, but it is possible Tenn. trades for Cutler, or develops Metzenburger and takes the draft pick haul. Unless you have a sure thing, I would take the draft picks. People are throwing out the same amount given up for RGIII. I don't think so, but who knows. If St. Louis had a QB or Bradford did not get hurt, they would have been very good. Those picks were parlayed into 6 players, and many of them I believe will be studs on the defensive side, if not already.

[IndySouthsider]

After tonight, Mariota is definitely ahead of Winston. What a meltdown.

Either of them picked early will set their teams back 3 - 4 years. Neither will be servicable starters in the NFL.

[snkdy]

Either of them picked early will set their teams back 3 - 4 years. Neither will be servicable starters in the NFL.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.

[loudnproudcolt]

I am not going to blow my own horn too much, but at "Over the Cap" they did a piece on Tennessee. They are looking at every team, going by draft position, and breaking down cap space, who should be signed, released, FA, etc. They just finished Tennessee, and it surprised me a little in his synopsis about what he said, especially concerning the team itself. Here was his synopsis. If you want to read the whole piece, the link is posted below:

 

 

Offseason Plan

"There is probably not a team in the NFL with a worse roster than the Titans. Outside of Jurrell Casey there is no player that looks like a upper echelon player at his position. They have a few decent players like a McCourty or Delanie Walker, but the Titans need a complete infusion of talent to turn the team around.  Right now they are at a stage where they just shuffle guys in and out of the lineup which gives them no continuity at all. This is a big project that likely can’t be done in one season.

The Titans seem to have a habit of avoiding high priced positions and seemingly getting cold feet fter being burned on a bigger contract, the worst of which was Chris Johnson for the team.  The team too often seems to rely on over focuising an lower cost players, such as Greene and Oher, but overpaying them to ensure they get the lowest cost “talented” players out there. That strategy has led to the current state of the franchise. If they are going to enter free agency this year they need to target better talent rather than bargain talent that most teams would look at for depth and not significant roles.  Cost can not be an issue.

They will be in a position to draft a quarterback, the biggest need for the team, but given the head coaches track record with young QB’s I would not consider that a good option. This would be a team that should consider trading for Jay Cutler or looking at Mark Sanchez or Sam Bradford (if released) for the position and trading down from the number 2 spot. With the cap room they have they can find a quality wide receiver and defensive lineman in free agency. They could get involved with a player to potentially rush the passer like a Brian Orakpo coming off injury but they may be better suited to drafting for pass rush rather than gambling on a second tier guy or taking an older player like Tamba Hali who could be released. If they continue on their current path of overpaying low cost talent they will be in the same draft position for many years to come."

 

http://overthecap.com/titans-2015-offseason-salary-cap-outlook/

[Track Guy]

Winston doesn't look that big to me. I bet he measures less than 6.3 at the combine.

 

He's supposed to be 6' 4 1/4", but they sometimes do come in lower than advertised; I suppose it's possible that happens with Winston. Mariota is supposed to be 6' 3 5/8". Cam was an even 6' 5" and Luck was an even 6' 4".

[DougDew]

He's supposed to be 6' 4 1/4", but they sometimes do come in lower than advertised; I suppose it's possible that happens with Winston. Mariota is supposed to be 6' 3 5/8". Cam was an even 6' 5" and Luck was an even 6' 4".

The eye test tells me that neither is huge, but that Mariota is taller. If he is 5/8" over 6.3, then I'll stand on my wager that the over/under on Winston is 6.3

[IndySouthsider]

Titans would be better trading and sticking with Metzenberger. Screw trading for Cutler.

[Track Guy]

The eye test tells me that neither is huge, but that Mariota is taller. If he is 5/8" over 6.3, then I'll stand on my wager that the over/under on Winston is 6.3

 

Interesting. I'd be able to sniff it out if I saw him in person cause I'm 6'3" . I wonder if Winston's predicted weight of 232 might be inflated as well then. Even if he is as big as they say he is, I don't think Cam Newton would be his comp. I think his style is maybe something like a hybrid of the guy others are bringing up, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger. 

[NewColtsFan]

Interesting. I'd be able to sniff it out if I saw him in person cause I'm 6'3" . I wonder if Winston's predicted weight of 232 might be inflated as well then. Even if he is as big as they say he is, I don't think Cam Newton would be his comp. I think his style is maybe something like a hybrid of the guy others are bringing up, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger. 

 

 

Yeah...   Cam Newton is 6'6" and 250.

 

When Newton had a public pre-draft workout,  Trent Dilfer, who is 6'4" and 240,  said he felt dwarfed standing next to Newton.

 

6'4" and 240 is what Andrew Luck is.     Newton is a freak of nature!

[Defjamz26]

Either of them picked early will set their teams back 3 - 4 years. Neither will be servicable starters in the NFL.

I think the key for Mariota is who drafts him. He's probably going to go to a team with a traditional west coast offense. He has no experience in that department and is exactly the type of guy who needs to sit for a few years. He'll need a good QB coach to mentor him. If he goes to a team like the Bucs, he will probably fail hard. Not sure Tennessee is the best place for him either since I think people who say Whisenhunt is a QB guru are delirious.

[IndySouthsider]

I think the key for Mariota is who drafts him. He's probably going to go to a team with a traditional west coast offense. He has no experience in that department and is exactly the type of guy who needs to sit for a few years. He'll need a good QB coach to mentor him. If he goes to a team like the Bucs, he will probably fail hard. Not sure Tennessee is the best place for him either since I think people who say Whisenhunt is a QB guru are delirious.

I saw alot of wide open WR hard to gage accuracy when NFL Receivers rarely get open to that degree. I am unsure if Mariota can make NFL throws. Rg3 was very accurate at Baylor. Winston has a horrible delivery that needs fixed ASAP.

[Shane Bond]

Jameis Winston by a mile.

 

He is the overall complete QB who has the accuracy, poise, football IQ and all.

 

Better suited for NFL.

[bestQBever]

Winston doesn't look that big to me. I bet he measures less than 6.3 at the combine.

he's listed at 6'4 230. He may measure out to be 6'3 or even 6'2 but that isn't bad. 

[Gavin]

I'd bet on neither and neither should go #1 but I like Mariota. I actually think it would do Winston some good to come back another year, Get another year under his belt, stay out of trouble and work on his image....But wont happen.

[Bluefire4]

I don't get the hype around Winston as a player. He reminds me of Geno Smith.

[DougDew]

I want to edit my original post to the thread.

I placed Winston in a category of QBs who run around and make improve plays. This judgment was based upon what I see when watching highlights of him on the sports networks. I don't follow FSU games. I see now that he is considered to be more of a pocket passer than Manziel; however, I would tend to put Winston into a similar category of hype. As most have figured, I'm basically wondering if either Mariota or Winston are over-hyped like Johnny was. Each appears to have more legitimate FB skills than did Johnny at this point, IMO

[loudnproudcolt]

Winston said today that he wants to come back for next season to play baseball and football. He has said all along he wants to come back, and his father has consistently said the same. Everyone has thought due to the distractions Florida State would be happy to see him go, which I do a agree with. I also think if he decides to come back, they would be perfectly happy with that also. In addition, the allegations of sexual conduct are now behind him, unless she tries to take a civil case against him, and it would help him to play another year and let that get further away from him. So he may go back to FSU for another year. Many QB's you thought were coming out have done it, and after that loss, he may just do the same. Tenn. would be bummed, if for no other reason, trade bait.

[wig]

He's supposed to be 6' 4 1/4", but they sometimes do come in lower than advertised; I suppose it's possible that happens with Winston. Mariota is supposed to be 6' 3 5/8". Cam was an even 6' 5" and Luck was an even 6' 4".

You are pulling those numbers out of your a**. Mariota is also over 6'4.

[Dustin]

actually now that I think about it... Winston is basically Cam Newton 2.0

 

Yeah....no.

[Track Guy]

You are pulling those numbers out of your *. Mariota is also over 6'4.

lol no I'm not. You can view them on nfldraftscout yourself. Mariota is listed at 6035 which means 6' 3 5/8". 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=119521&draftyear=2016&genpos=QB

[wig]

lol no I'm not. You can view them on nfldraftscout yourself. Mariota is listed at 6035 which means 6' 3 5/8". 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=119521&draftyear=2016&genpos=QB

 

And they've never taken his height, or timed his forty.   

[wig]

And he'll weigh more than 215.

[JWF]

I'm probably biased being a Noles fan but Winston is a better prospect for the pro leve than probably anyone since luck. He ran a pro style offense and can anticipate throws. That's the thing a lot of these spread QBs aren't asked to do. Winston also is much more accurate than mariota. It's what gets Winston into trouble. He thinks he can fit the ball into any space. Mariota has shown a lot of accuracy issues from the pocket at times and is better actually on the move. I do think mariota can be good though unlike a lot of spread QBs before him. He's smart and a hard worker and is mature. I think he can learn a pro offense given time to develop.

Winston has the smarts and work ethic but he needs to grow up off the field. If he does that he can be a really good pro. If he keeps pulling crab leg stuff he's toast.

[MTC]

Bryce Petty will be the best pro QB in the draft.

 

I'm not afraid to say that.