Colts History and a little about Johnny U

[The Old Crow]

I'll fire the first salvo-

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/29/sports/sp-58976

You misunderstood what I said about the Super Bowl 5 trophy in my comments. I was the one that told you guys about Rosenbloom stealing the trophy ! What are you talking about with first salvo. I think you misunderstood, Irsay stole the Unitas memorabilia, and Baltimore got back the Super Bowl 5 trophy later as part of the settlement. Probably the way I phrased it sounded confusing , but if you look back in the thread, I brought up the Rosenbloom business. Now that we have that out of the way, I will begin putting the full context of the move into a clearer picture. Like the gentleman before you, you also pick quick Wiki versions of the move, and don't delve into the other areas. Don't worry, you will be rewarded.

[The Old Crow]

Ahem - Since I am no longer speaking to Old Crow, us Colts fans will have a little yahoo! (Feel free to chime in Colts fans!)

 

You know, I like to think of it like this - there are two kinds of thinkers in this wonderful world of ours - there are the BIG PICTURE folks, the BIG THINKERS - the doers, the ones who move mountains - the ones who can analyze any problem, drink in every detail, and still solve the problem at hand and accomplish any task. Their genius lies in their ability to cast insignificant details aside in favor of the more obvious BIG PICTURE facts. These BIG PICTURE folks intuitively and innately know how to simplify the issue and perhaps more importantly - they realize exactly how important it is to do so. They have the uncanny and reasonably rare ability to see the BIG PICTURE and not get bogged down in the minor and reasonably insignificant details of an issue. This is a gift, not everyone has it. Facts are facts and once the insignificant details - which cloud the clarity of any reasonable BIG PICTURE person - are put aside, those facts speak for themselves - and feed directly into the input sensors of the BIG THINKING person. He GETS it and knows how to act  accordingly.

 

On the other hand, we have the small thinkers - the hangers-on - the ones who are always rationalizing - hoarding a gazzillion details about nothing - and writing dissertation after dissertation - and making excuses for behavioral issues as if their lives depended on it - all mostly about details that simply are not even on the radar of the BIG PICTURE person. They literally talk and lead themselves around in circles about issues which really don't have any bearing on the scope of the BIG PICTURE issue at hand. Round and round and round they go, spouting their superiority and mindfulness - not realizing that they are only talking themselves in circles. Re-iterating time after time "But you don't understand - I WAS THERE, you could not POSSIBLY know anything about any of this or UNDERSTAND any of this in the way that I do, I WAS THERE, I LIVED IT!"

 

Well, much like clinical insanity - in it's purest form - they keep spouting the same details and mantras over and over and over and somehow - expect a different result.

 

Talk yourself in circles, we know it is all tongue in cheek, at least we hope so. But still we worry about you. This obsession you have is not normal.  GET OVER IT!

 

Go outside, get some sunshine and fresh air. Get away from the computer and maybe stay away. You will thank yourself for it. I know we will.

 

 

ColtsHappy

Look if you don't want to talk to me , Get over it and leave the thread. It's like a tv channel or radio channel you don't like, just turn it off. You play little games where you will comment on things, and then say you don't talk to someone. Then you try to control things after spouting off saying, I guess he always wants the last word, when you yourself like the last word. These are two bit debate tactics and psychological ruses that don't work with me.

Here is the bottom line, I enjoy spirited debate with all you guys and respect all of you. I do like the Indy Colts, your city, and you guys as fans. I enjoy your forum. I sometimes needle you guys , and vice versa, but I never take what you guys hammer me with badly. It's a fun forum. You are taking it way too personally, but if that's how you feel , that is fine. Understand, I have to defend my position.

[The Old Crow]

I've been a Colt fan for 54 years . If they moved from Indy to Billings MO , it would make zero difference to me. I've read the shoe thread and while I admit that B Irsay may have been the devil as his mother suspected , Baltimore did not do enough to keep the team. You have been dominated and I suggest you move on.

No way. As we now say in Baltimore , are we beaten, Nevermore ! DW , you can always count on me for truth and balance.

[Nadine]

Ahem - Since I am no longer speaking to Old Crow, us Colts fans will have a little yahoo! (Feel free to chime in Colts fans!)

 

You know, I like to think of it like this - there are two kinds of thinkers in this wonderful world of ours - there are the BIG PICTURE folks, the BIG THINKERS - the doers, the ones who move mountains - the ones who can analyze any problem, drink in every detail, and still solve the problem at hand and accomplish any task. Their genius lies in their ability to cast insignificant details aside in favor of the more obvious BIG PICTURE facts. These BIG PICTURE folks intuitively and innately know how to simplify the issue and perhaps more importantly - they realize exactly how important it is to do so. They have the uncanny and reasonably rare ability to see the BIG PICTURE and not get bogged down in the minor and reasonably insignificant details of an issue. This is a gift, not everyone has it. Facts are facts and once the insignificant details - which cloud the clarity of any reasonable BIG PICTURE person - are put aside, those facts speak for themselves - and feed directly into the input sensors of the BIG THINKING person. He GETS it and knows how to act  accordingly.

 

On the other hand, we have the small thinkers - the hangers-on - the ones who are always rationalizing - hoarding a gazzillion details about nothing - and writing dissertation after dissertation - and making excuses for behavioral issues as if their lives depended on it - all mostly about details that simply are not even on the radar of the BIG PICTURE person. They literally talk and lead themselves around in circles about issues which really don't have any bearing on the scope of the BIG PICTURE issue at hand. Round and round and round they go, spouting their superiority and mindfulness - not realizing that they are only talking themselves in circles. Re-iterating time after time "But you don't understand - I WAS THERE, you could not POSSIBLY know anything about any of this or UNDERSTAND any of this in the way that I do, I WAS THERE, I LIVED IT!"

 

Well, much like clinical insanity - in it's purest form - they keep spouting the same details and mantras over and over and over and somehow - expect a different result.

 

Talk yourself in circles, we know it is all tongue in cheek, at least we hope so. But still we worry about you. This obsession you have is not normal.  GET OVER IT!

 

Go outside, get some sunshine and fresh air. Get away from the computer and maybe stay away. You will thank yourself for it. I know we will.

 

 

ColtsHappy

 

I think there are many more types than that. But I wouldn't glorify the 'big picture' people........they depend on the people who implement and make sure things work.  "Idea guys" have no patience with, tolerance for......or even sometimes respect for the process that it takes to implement their ideas.

 

They crank out idea after idea and want to move on.  They work best as consultants...........in my experience.

[The Old Crow]

I think there are many more types than that. But I wouldn't glorify the 'big picture' people........they depend on the people who implement and make sure things work.  "Idea guys" have no patience with, tolerance for......or even sometimes respect for the process that it takes to implement their ideas.

 

They crank out idea after idea and want to move on.  They work best as consultants...........in my experience.

Nadine, does this mean you're considering me as a consultant to the Colts Fan Forum ? It would certainly be an honor to work for my favorite moderator. Lol

[HOZER]

If I owned something, and a higher power was threatening to take it away, you best believe I would do whatever it takes to get the **** out of Dodge. Yes eminent domain was supposedly only being considered, but who in thier right mind wouldn't split before they got a chance to implement it? Eventually it was implemented but it was too late. JMO

[HOZER]

Still would like to thank everyone(both sides) for posting about the ups and downs of the Colts rich history. I really enjoy reading and learning more about my favorite team.

[dudeski]

How can Indy be the Baltimore Colts when they never played in Baltimore ? They didn't have a team or stadium back then.

this makes zero sense

[The Old Crow]

If I owned something, and a higher power was threatening to take it away, you best believe I would do whatever it takes to get the **** out of Dodge. Yes eminent domain was supposedly only being considered, but who in thier right mind wouldn't split before they got a chance to implement it? Eventually it was implemented but it was too late. JMO

I will get to all that, but remember , one of the guys negotiating with Irsay at the very end, besides Mayor Shaeffer of Baltimore, was governor Harry Hughes of Maryland, who would have had to sign the Eminent Domain bill. But as I've told you guys many times , why would the governor be negotiating with Irsay ? Clearly, he wanted a deal, not Eminent Domain. What happened was some rogue state senator put this Emminent Domain deal out there , it passed one portion of the house, but not the other, and the governor certainly had not signed it. Irsay, who was drunk and somewhat irrational at the time, misread things, panicked , and pulled the trigger. Now that is not my opinion about Irsay. I can cite numerous sources including his own son, who he sent to Indy, and then forgot he sent him there.

Now, for all you folks that think I'm a total Baltimore apologist, I've been forthright in stating Maryland politicians made many mistakes, and are partially to blame for the move. I'm against Eminent Domain in general, it's stupid. However, it was a negotiating tactic put in when some felt all was lost , and the Colts were leaving anyway. You have to remember , Irsay's constant threats, some as far back as 1974, led to this Eminent Domain mindset of some of these politicians . My opinion is Baltimore should have built a stadium, and had those blue laws rescinded. That is on Baltimore. The fans are blameless, as they were in Cleveland. They are always the victims.

Now , you can't give Irsay a complete pass. Yes, MD voters turned down the stadium initially, but had we not had such a polarizing owner, that vote may have gone differently. First, you blow in from Chicago, and immediately start looking to move the team, and make demands. You trade Unitas shabbily , mistreat your players , coaches, and fans, and it's a lethal mixture of non co-operation. I believe Irsay would have gotten all he desired, and more, had he taken the later approach Jim Irsay took with Indy. I understand how many of you look at it from a purely business perspective, I'm also a businessman, but I think most of us believe the NFL as a business is also a public trust. That is where Bob Irsay failed. My opinion is, and it was believed by some in 1972 when he bought the team, that he wanted to move it all along. He was from Chicago, and look where he moved, Indy. Pretty coincidental. He was never emotionally invested in Baltimore, and it showed. If he was, people would have rallied to him, and I think he would have gotten all he wanted.

Some have cited Carroll Rosenbloom, who was a great owner as far as wins and losses , but he was a tax cheat, a trophy stealer, and utterly ruthless businessman. His final tax dodge giving the majority ownership to his seven times married, gold digging wife, actually disinherited his own blood from owning the Rams. I will give this one thing to Bob Irsay, he took care of his son as far as team ownership goes, and Jim Irsay is taking care of his daughters. I respect that. And for those that think I don't want Jim Irsay to get better and beat the drug thing, you are dead wrong. I'm sincere about that and hope he gets healthy and back to owning the team

I like to think these discussions are valuable in all of us learning, or reflecting back on some NFL history that affected all of us.

[Nadine]

Nadine, does this mean you're considering me as a consultant to the Colts Fan Forum ? It would certainly be an honor to work for my favorite moderator. Lol

 

LOL, imagine the ruckus if you were a mod.

I just mean that really good teams and work groups have a lot of different 'types'........they all play a role that's needed.

[Nadine]

Some have cited Carroll Rosenbloom, who was a great owner as far as wins and losses .

 

my understanding is that Rosenbloom was tired of trying to get a new stadium........knew it wouldn't happen and wanted out of Baltimore.

 

he handed that situation off

 

I get tired of people demonizing Bob Irsay, I really do.  It's time to stop

[King Colt]

Keep in mind the Colts were the only thing going there. The Colts marching band members (some of them are a part of the Ravens marching band. There was one person the sat in the Colts stadium by himself when the first game was played in Indy. I guess he snuck in somehow. One person is buried in his Colts marching band uniform. Bob Ursey is on film saying "this is not the city's team, this is not the fan's team, this is my team". The sneak out from Baltimore was one of the most underhanded moves by any owner in any sport in our history. Bob Ursey was an alcoholic and made personnel moves one day in a drunken stupor he would not recall doing the next day. Very sad story. Too bad his son inherited his weakness for the bottle. I have been a Colt fan since Unitas took over for George Shaw and have loved every year, even those I'd love to forget. 

[Bravo]

Look if you don't want to talk to me , Get over it and leave the thread. It's like a tv channel or radio channel you don't like, just turn it off. You play little games where you will comment on things, and then say you don't talk to someone. Then you try to control things after spouting off saying, I guess he always wants the last word, when you yourself like the last word. These are two bit debate tactics and psychological ruses that don't work with me.

Here is the bottom line, I enjoy spirited debate with all you guys and respect all of you. I do like the Indy Colts, your city, and you guys as fans. I enjoy your forum. I sometimes needle you guys , and vice versa, but I never take what you guys hammer me with badly. It's a fun forum. You are taking it way too personally, but if that's how you feel , that is fine. Understand, I have to defend my position.

I enjoy reading good debates as well! Thanks for entertaining me guys!! But do you think if the Colts stay in Indy for MANY more years that Baltimore will still "hate" the Indy Colts. I'm 20 and I obviously don't remember anything about the move and never have really looked much into it until lately.. I feel like with the young guns to around 20's don't really feel like it is that important anymore and it is time to move on" how do people around that age feel in Baltimore? Of course it will always be history and a big deal but Do you think as the years pass the hard feelings and "rivalry" between the cities will begin to fade?

[dw49]

No way. As we now say in Baltimore , are we beaten, Nevermore ! DW , you can always count on me for truth and balance.

  

 

ok…

[The Old Crow]

LOL, imagine the ruckus if you were a mod.

I just mean that really good teams and work groups have a lot of different 'types'........they all play a role that's needed.

You guys do a great job as mods. You've been very fair to me as an out of towner. I would make a bad mod, no doubt.

[The Old Crow]

this makes zero sense

Probably from a franchise sense, but I know I have no affinity for ST . Louis Browns history with the Orioles. To me, they were two different teams in two different cities .

[The Old Crow]

I enjoy reading good debates as well! Thanks for entertaining me guys!! But do you think if the Colts stay in Indy for MANY more years that Baltimore will still "hate" the Indy Colts. I'm 20 and I obviously don't remember anything about the move and never have really looked much into it until lately.. I feel like with the young guns to around 20's don't really feel like it is that important anymore and it is time to move on" how do people around that age feel in Baltimore? Of course it will always be history and a big deal but Do you think as the years pass the hard feelings and "rivalry" between the cities will begin to fade?

The ill feelings reached a crescendo in 2006 in Baltimore, and have very much dissipated after the Ravens second Super Bowl victory in 2012. I honestly think that New England and Houston are more your rivals, while Pittsburgh is ours. It's still a great AFC game when the Colts and Ravens play, but the move stuff plays less a part as time goes on.

That being said, the history and legacy of the Baltimore Colts is very much alive in Baltimore, and that history and appreciation has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son. Like Mr. Boh, nostalgia is always important to any city, and the old Baltimore Colts are no exception. We have some stupid young Raven fans that don't care about the Colts, but these types are ignorant of history in general. I always enjoy Ravens-Colts game and I may stop out to Indy for the game this year.

[The Old Crow]

my understanding is that Rosenbloom was tired of trying to get a new stadium........knew it wouldn't happen and wanted out of Baltimore.

 

he handed that situation off

 

I get tired of people demonizing Bob Irsay, I really do.  It's time to stop

It's not really demonizing him, it's the way he was. I could pull you numerous quotes, but that is unnecessary. You just can't tell the full story of the Colts move without Bob Irsay's actions coming up, because it is a central part of the story, as is the failure of Baltimore politicians. They deserve some demonization. I liked Rosenbloom as a winning owner, but I think he was kind of greedy, and not the nicest person. Bob Irsay was a very good businessman and hard worker, there is no denying that. He was loyal to his son. No one is totally bad.

[Bravo]

The ill feelings reached a crescendo in 2006 in Baltimore, and have very much dissipated after the Ravens second Super Bowl victory in 2012. I honestly think that New England and Houston are more your rivals, while Pittsburgh is ours. It's still a great AFC game when the Colts and Ravens play, but the move stuff plays less a part as time goes on.

That being said, the history and legacy of the Baltimore Colts is very much alive in Baltimore, and that history and appreciation has been passed from Grandfather, to father, to son. Like Mr. Boh, nostalgia is always important to any city, and the old Baltimore Colts are no exception. We have some stupid young Raven fans that don't care about the Colts, but these types are ignorant of history in general. I always enjoy Ravens-Colts game and I may stop out to Indy for the game this year.

Yeah Baltimore has had a great team now for many years! I figured that would help. I enjoy the games also but I completely agree that our rivals are the Patriots and Texans.. And of course yours are different as well. This is mostly due to the divisions and in the Colts and Patriots games because of Peyton and Tom. I can tell the history in Baltimore is strong! But still great when the teams meet!

[dudeski]

Probably from a franchise sense, but I know I have no affinity for ST . Louis Browns history with the Orioles. To me, they were two different teams in two different cities .

franchise sense, is all there is

[The Old Crow]

franchise sense, is all there is

To you

[ColtsBlueFL]

You misunderstood what I said about the Super Bowl 5 trophy in my comments. I was the one that told you guys about Rosenbloom stealing the trophy ! What are you talking about with first salvo. I think you misunderstood, Irsay stole the Unitas memorabilia, and Baltimore got back the Super Bowl 5 trophy later as part of the settlement. Probably the way I phrased it sounded confusing , but if you look back in the thread, I brought up the Rosenbloom business. Now that we have that out of the way, I will begin putting the full context of the move into a clearer picture. Like the gentleman before you, you also pick quick Wiki versions of the move, and don't delve into the other areas. Don't worry, you will be rewarded.

I did not misunderstand at all, and the bolded underlined part above is exactly what I'm addressing. Baltimore Did_Not_Get_Back the Superbowl V trophy.  Last known possessor was/is Georgia Frontiere (you know who shes is, yes?)  and Tiffany and Co. had made a copy for the City of Baltimore.  Because nobody ever got the original back.  Capiche?

 

 

Quote:

"I knew where it was, of course. Carroll had it, because he said he deserved it, and it wasn't Irsay's."

Irsay died a few years ago, but his son, Jim, who now owns the Indianapolis Colts, said, "I've never been to [Georgia's] house, so I haven't seen the trophy."

 

The Baltimore Colts raised a ruckus after it initially came up missing, but NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle wasn't about to tangle with Rosenbloom, one of the NFL's premier power brokers.

 

"I saw it one more time after it left Baltimore," Accorsi said. "I was with Steve and he had to stop at his father's house for something, and invited me in.

"And there in the glistening morning sunlight I saw the Lombardi Trophy. C.R. came in the room, and I was always in awe of him, so I said, 'Mr. Rosenbloom, obviously you got a duplicate made.' And he said, 'Kid, you always were a bright young man.'

"After that, we petitioned Commissioner Rozelle to get a duplicate made for the city of Baltimore. The funny thing is, that was the first-ever Lombardi Trophy. Vince had died a few months before the Colts' win, and the trophy was named in his honor for that game."

[The Old Crow]

I did not misunderstand at all, and the bolded underlined part above is exactly what I'm addressing. Baltimore Did_Not_Get_Back the Superbowl V trophy.  Last known possessor was/is Georgia Frontiere (you know who shes is, yes?)  and Tiffany and Co. had made a copy for the City of Baltimore.  Because nobody ever got the original back.  Capiche?

 

 

Quote:

"I knew where it was, of course. Carroll had it, because he said he deserved it, and it wasn't Irsay's."

Irsay died a few years ago, but his son, Jim, who now owns the Indianapolis Colts, said, "I've never been to [Georgia's] house, so I haven't seen the trophy."

 

The Baltimore Colts raised a ruckus after it initially came up missing, but NFL Commissioner Pete Rozelle wasn't about to tangle with Rosenbloom, one of the NFL's premier power brokers.

 

"I saw it one more time after it left Baltimore," Accorsi said. "I was with Steve and he had to stop at his father's house for something, and invited me in.

"And there in the glistening morning sunlight I saw the Lombardi Trophy. C.R. came in the room, and I was always in awe of him, so I said, 'Mr. Rosenbloom, obviously you got a duplicate made.' And he said, 'Kid, you always were a bright young man.'

"After that, we petitioned Commissioner Rozelle to get a duplicate made for the city of Baltimore. The funny thing is, that was the first-ever Lombardi Trophy. Vince had died a few months before the Colts' win, and the trophy was named in his honor for that game."

Yep, I read that story also. To add to that, Bob Irsay was obviously mad after that happened and tried to get it back. Spineless Rozelle was afraid of Rosenbloom, and did nothing . When the Colts settled with Baltimore, we got the rights to both trophies. I want the original back to go with the duplicate

[dudeski]

To you

to anyone that deals with truth or facts

[SOMDColtsfan]

The "__________ Colts". It doesn't matter to me. As long as there is a "Colts" team in the NFL I don't think it will ever matter to me where they play. The Colts are bigger than any one thing. Its about the Blue and White, the Horseshoe. Not the city, owner, GM, QB or any other player. In my fan era I`ve watched Bert Jones, Mike Pagel, Jack Trudeau, Mark Hermann, Jeff George, Peyton Manning and now Luck to name a few as QB. Lydell Mitchell, Don McCauley, Joe Washington, Curtis Dickey, Randy McMillain, Albert Bentley, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James as RB`s. They are a blend of 2 different cities yes but I don`t separate them as "Baltimore" or "Indy" players. They are all just "Colts" players to me and always will be. No one has changed me view on that in 35 years now and pretty certain no one will going forth. 

[Jeffrey Jeff]

I feel the same. And a fan since '67. And that DOT game in '77 was unreal. If Bert had not overthrown Raymond Chester in OT.

Yes wasn't that a HEARTBREAKER,Chester was wide open,Jones in NFL's Greatest Games replay of that say's "If only I had wait a couple extra seconds and then thrown the ball,,,,",I'm not saying Chester would of scored but he would of put us in position to kick for the win".........Then said "I think I'll go to my grave saying why didn't I wait a couple extra seconds and then thrown it",,,,,,,,,,Also the Colts were moving the ball well late in the game by mixing it up the short pass then a few runs,But  Ted Marchibroda pulled Jones 7 Lydal Michell over and said let's run the ball,,,,Jones & Michell disagreed but said he was the coach and u have to do what the coach says,,,,,,,,,,Even Monte Johnson of the Raiders commenting on the game said "what what happened its like they the Colts were playing not to win but to just eat the clock,,,,,,,,,He was baffled ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Also If Roger Carr had played a full game I think he may have play some we may have one that game,,,,,,,,,,,,,Also if Lyle Blackwood had' got hurt in the game early Casper may not have caught that ball the guy subbing for Lyle Blackwood was so out of position on Casper's catch,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Jeffrey Jeff]

How can Indy be the Baltimore Colts when they never played in Baltimore ? They didn't have a team or stadium back then.

The Colts originally the Balt Colts that was the team that left Balt to go to Indy,,,,,,,,,Indy didn't start from scratch,,,,,,w/new players like an expantion team,,,,,,,,,,, they got Balt Colt team that left Balt.........

[dudeski]

The Colts originally the Balt Colts that was the team that left Balt to go to Indy,,,,,,,,,Indy didn't start from scratch,,,,,,w/new players like an expantion team,,,,,,,,,,, they got Balt Colt team that left Balt.........

he knows this. He just won't accept facts

[ColtsHappy]

I think there are many more types than that. But I wouldn't glorify the 'big picture' people........they depend on the people who implement and make sure things work.  "Idea guys" have no patience with, tolerance for......or even sometimes respect for the process that it takes to implement their ideas.

 

They crank out idea after idea and want to move on.  They work best as consultants...........in my experience.

You make some good points Nadine, I was't referring to the typical Type A personalities, which I think you are highlighting here. Not every big thinker is type A.  I thought my emphasis was on the latter, the small thinker, or the one whose talking in circles creates nothing more than a tornado of diversion in the infinitely calm climate of facts.

 

However, as you point out, there is always a chance I am wrong. 

 

Some folks have the ability to say  the exact same things in countless ways. It simply wears me out.

 

ColtsHappy

[The Old Crow]

I'm not sure where many of you are coming from. You think I'm talking in circles because many of you bring up different comments about the Baltimore Colts and their fans, some I need to defend. Sure I know the Baltimore Colts became the Indy Colts , and from a franchise perspective they are the same. I'm just pointing out in my comments that the history took place in different cities . I have long accepted the move, or I wouldn't be a Ravens fan. However , I rarely see an Orioles fan touting St Louis Browns accomplishments as their own , as you see in Indy. Sure, it's technically part of the franchise, but Am I really going to brag about a 1944 AL pennant that was won in St . Louis ? That is the same obsurdity I see when ESPN has a special about the greatest game ever played , commented on by modern day Indianapolis Colts. That is the kind of thing I have a problem with , where history is arranged to take Baltimore out of the history books.

I think I've been pretty fair about the move. I know what kind of owner Irsay was as I observed him from 1972 until the end. He was a bad owner , as is Peter Angelos of the Orioles. I told you guys I don't like Eminent Domain, and I think The Maryland politicians goofed up. If you look back at the lessons of time, certainly we should have built a new stadium. Now that being said, I do have problems when fans are blamed in Baltimore for the move, or Baltimore gets snubbed in the history books or some type of NFL show. When I hear from some fans that Bob Irsay was a good , benevolent owner , well that's not quite right also.

So all in all, I think I'm pretty fair in my comments across the board , but I get hit from a million different angles from you fine folk, so it takes a lot of explaining. As I've told you, I'm a fan and advocate of the Baltimore Colts and Ravens. I respect the Indianapolis Colts, but to me, and many in Baltimore, it is like a totally different entity . Many here will disagree with that , but the one thing many of us have in common is a love of the old Baltimore Colts history which we share. If you followed the franchise to Indy, that's fine , I couldn't. I'm not from Des Moines and could care less where the logos landed. I'm a loyal Baltimore guy like Unitas was. Still, I enjoy these historical types if topics, as they kill some time for us in the off season, and maybe teach some younger fans history, that may stumble on some forum threads.

[dudeski]

It isn't entirely different entities. It's one franchise. Separating the team because of city is make believe reality.

You used to be a colts fan. Then you quit. That is the reality.

[The Old Crow]

It isn't entirely different entities. It's one franchise. Separating the team because of city is make believe reality.

You used to be a colts fan. Then you quit. That is the reality.

I just said that was the prevailing thought in Baltimore, which I share. There is some substance though, we own the rights to both Super Bowl 5 trophies , you don't fly the Baltimore Colt Championship banners, we have a Baltimore Colts museum and Ring of Honor at Ravens Stadium, and a Johnny Unitas , and soon to be Lenny Moore statue at the stadium. That is also a reality. I didn't quit being a Baltimore Colts fan. Ask yourself a question, if the Indy Colts left for LA , you are from Indy, then you get a new team in town, who do you root for ?

[dudeski]

I just said that was the prevailing thought in Baltimore, which I share. There is some substance though, we own the rights to both Super Bowl 5 trophies , you don't fly the Baltimore Colt Championship banners, we have a Baltimore Colts museum and Ring of Honor at Ravens Stadium, and a Johnny Unitas , and soon to be Lenny Moore statue at the stadium. That is also a reality. I didn't quit being a Baltimore Colts fan. Ask yourself a question, if the Indy Colts left for LA , you are from Indy, then you get a new team in town, who do you root for ?

the colts.

Just because people like yourself try and keep part of the colts history doesn't make it reality. There is no separation. No new team was created.

[PonyUp]

I'm not sure where many of you are coming from. You think I'm talking in circles because many of you bring up different comments about the Baltimore Colts and their fans, some I need to defend. Sure I know the Baltimore Colts became the Indy Colts , and from a franchise perspective they are the same. I'm just pointing out in my comments that the history took place in different cities . I have long accepted the move, or I wouldn't be a Ravens fan. However , I rarely see an Orioles fan touting St Louis Browns accomplishments as their own , as you see in Indy. Sure, it's technically part of the franchise, but Am I really going to brag about a 1944 AL pennant that was won in St . Louis ? That is the same obsurdity I see when ESPN has a special about the greatest game ever played , commented on by modern day Indianapolis Colts. That is the kind of thing I have a problem with , where history is arranged to take Baltimore out of the history books.

I think I've been pretty fair about the move. I know what kind of owner Irsay was as I observed him from 1972 until the end. He was a bad owner , as is Peter Angelos of the Orioles. I told you guys I don't like Eminent Domain, and I think The Maryland politicians goofed up. If you look back at the lessons of time, certainly we should have built a new stadium. Now that being said, I do have problems when fans are blamed in Baltimore for the move, or Baltimore gets snubbed in the history books or some type of NFL show. When I hear from some fans that Bob Irsay was a good , benevolent owner , well that's not quite right also.

So all in all, I think I'm pretty fair in my comments across the board , but I get hit from a million different angles from you fine folk, so it takes a lot of explaining. As I've told you, I'm a fan and advocate of the Baltimore Colts and Ravens. I respect the Indianapolis Colts, but to me, and many in Baltimore, it is like a totally different entity . Many here will disagree with that , but the one thing many of us have in common is a love of the old Baltimore Colts history which we share. If you followed the franchise to Indy, that's fine , I couldn't. I'm not from Des Moines and could care less where the logos landed. I'm a loyal Baltimore guy like Unitas was. Still, I enjoy these historical types if topics, as they kill some time for us in the off season, and maybe teach some younger fans history, that may stumble on some forum threads.

 

I don't know why you Baltimore fans take this subject so personally. I realize some point at the attendance and that's a bit insulting to your pride. Personally I don't buy that one bit. Attendance ebbs and flows for all teams no matter what city they're located in, depending on peoples outlook on the product put on the field.

 

You're mistake is that you believe your opinions are facts when they're anything but. You can't make a claim like "Fair offer" when fair itself is subjective. Well it looked fair to me? What does that matter if it didn't look fair to the man that matters (In this case Irsay)? You have a timeline. Those are the only facts that aren't up for interpretation. 

 

Just accept it.. When your 'Fair Offers' were being made, the negotiations had already degraded to it being personal between ownership and government. They played politics and the fans of the team lost.

 

But carry on, Holy Crow of Colts past, carry on dispatching those heathens from afar. Reason be damned when bitterness taps on your front door. Nevermore, Old Crow. Never more.

[schwamm]

The fans are blameless, as they were in Cleveland. They are always the victims.

You and I covered this whole arguement ad nauseum last year. In fact, I've stayed away from this thread precisely because I didn't want to get into it with you again.

The fact that we see this issue from clearly opposite sides is not a problem for me. Unfortunately, your attitude ends up becoming an affront. You aren't any more correct, you just have a different opinion and perspective. It is OK for you to accept that and move on.

As for your comment above (and the earlier one that I am not going to bother to go back and find, stating that you hold season ticket holders accountable, but hold fans at home blameless) is confusing to me.

Fans pay for tickets and gear. That is what makes a team profitable. If fans aren't buying season tickets, they have NO SAY in what the team does to make itself successful. PERIOD. If there are empty seats in the stadium, it is the local fan who watches from home that is MOST at fault for a team leaving.

This is precisely why I've been an STH for as long as I've lived in Indy... even when they sucked every year.

[texascolt]

damn, I would of never started this thread if I new it would cause this much of a commotion.

As I said in an previous post, I didn't know this topic had been already kicked around (sounds like

several times).

Since there wasn't much going on it would be a interesting topic.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to start a war.

[texascolt]

I can't seem to catch these errors when I proof read

 

Since there wasn't much going on, I thought it would be an interesting topic

[ColtsBlueFL]

Yep, I read that story also. To add to that, Bob Irsay was obviously mad after that happened and tried to get it back. Spineless Rozelle was afraid of Rosenbloom, and did nothing . When the Colts settled with Baltimore, we got the rights to both trophies. I want the original back to go with the duplicate

 

I'm sure you, and the whole state of Maryland does.  But we know the chances of that happening.  They range from Zero to LOL.

[ColtsBlueFL]

damn, I would of never started this thread if I new it would cause this much of a commotion.

As I said in an previous post, I didn't know this topic had been already kicked around (sounds like

several times).

Since there wasn't much going on it would be a interesting topic.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to start a war.

It's not a war, it's the debate rekindled.  New folks join all the time and might not have been around for the others, so not all was a waste, yes?

 

The facts are the facts, it's just that many feel the other side is only present ting those which reflect better their position.  If you read it all, and toss out unsupported and/or emotional statements, you'll have a very good understanding of what essentially went down. 

[The Old Crow]

I'm sure you, and the whole state of Maryland does.  But we know the chances of that happening.  They range from Zero to LOL.

 

 

You never know, they got a lot of the stolen art back to the rightful owners from the Germans after WW2. This trophy is not quite on that scale, but still theft, and the Frontiere family should be forced to give it back.