Colts History and a little about Johnny U

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Exactly.  Bob was no saint, but the fans vilified him for his decisions (like trade of Johnny U, shopping team around to get better leverage in negotiations for better stadium/terms in Baltimore, etc...) thus putting more of the blame on him for the move, and not so much what the City, the State, and yes, the voters of Maryland themselves did to force the move. But I'm reminded of this statement by Chester Karrass - You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

 

For all that can stomach the text, here are all of the courts proceedings and rulings in the City of Baltimore vs. the Indianapolis Colts.  Read for yourself such that you don't have to decipher truths presented through polarizing lenses of biased presenters. {from either side}

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839.xml/M.%20&%20C.%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE%20v.%20B.%20FOOTBALL%20C.

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841217733F2d484_11126.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841695741F2d954_11523.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20AND%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=1985952775F2d177_1923.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE

 

Anytime Old Crow brings up an item, look and see what the courts have determined in the above articles.  My research indicates total legal costs for Indy were about $400,000 and nearly one half a million dollars for Maryland. And neither could get courts to make one side pay for the other; cover your own costs.

 

I'm still looking for official documents where everything tangible to the city of Baltimore was supposed to be given back to Baltimore...

 

No wiki style entertainment was used in the production of the post.

 

thank you for the info .

[Blueblazes]

What kept the Baltimore Colts the Indianapolis Colts was in part keeping the uniforms and "Colts" name. Had they changed the uniforms and team name completely most fans would have bailed for another team. Look also at if you don't live in either city the only thing that matters is "Colts". If they move to Biloxi, Mississippi next year and remain the "Colts" then order me up some grits and cornbread and call me a Colts fan!!

Couldn't have said it better.  I've not lived in Baltimore or Indy. I totally empathize with Old Crow and other Baltimore fans. The Colts were not just a franchise nor not just a team, but were part of the fabric of Baltimore, Maryland for many years. But it is what it is.  I said in an earlier thread, if the Colts moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, I would be a "Kalamazoo Colts" fan. If they had done like the Browns franchise and left the "Colts" name in Baltimore, I would have remainded a "Baltimore Colts" fan. But they are the "Indianapolis Colts", so I'm an Indy Colts fan. I honestly think of Johnny Unitas, John Mackey and Bert Jones as a part of the same family as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. I know that sounds incredibly bad to Baltimore or Indy fans, but it's the way I feel. Go Colts since 1967. Go Colts through 2067 and beyond.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Couldn't have said it better.  I've not lived in Baltimore or Indy. I totally empathize with Old Crow and other Baltimore fans. The Colts were not just a franchise nor not just a team, but were part of the fabric of Baltimore, Maryland for many years. But it is what it is.  I said in an earlier thread, if the Colts moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, I would be a "Kalamazoo Colts" fan. If they had done like the Browns franchise and left the "Colts" name in Baltimore, I would have remainded a "Baltimore Colts" fan. But they are the "Indianapolis Colts", so I'm an Indy Colts fan. I honestly think of Johnny Unitas, John Mackey and Bert Jones as a part of the same family as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. I know that sounds incredibly bad to Baltimore or Indy fans, but it's the way I feel. Go Colts since 1967. Go Colts through 2067 and beyond.

 

I was a fan before the move.  I never lived any time in Indy until 1988 (- 1993).  So I was excited they did move only because of the situation.  I've moved away to Cincy and then SW Florida since, and am still a Colts fan.  But I distinguish the Colts team/franchise as a whole, and the Baltimore Colts, and the Indianapolis Colts.  Trident with one handle. 

[The Old Crow]

Exactly.  Bob was no saint, but the fans vilified him for his decisions (like trade of Johnny U, shopping team around to get better leverage in negotiations for better stadium/terms in Baltimore, etc...) thus putting more of the blame on him for the move, and not so much what the City, the State, and yes, the voters of Maryland themselves did to force the move. But I'm reminded of this statement by Chester Karrass - You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

 

For all that can stomach the text, here are all of the courts proceedings and rulings in the City of Baltimore vs. the Indianapolis Colts.  Read for yourself such that you don't have to decipher truths presented through polarizing lenses of biased presenters. {from either side}

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision/1985902624FSupp278_1839.xml/M.%20&%20C.%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE%20v.%20B.%20FOOTBALL%20C.

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841217733F2d484_11126.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=19841695741F2d954_11523.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20AND%20CITY%20COUNCIL

 

http://www.leagle.com/decision?q=1985952775F2d177_1923.xml/INDIANAPOLIS%20COLTS%20v.%20MAYOR%20&%20CITY%20COUNCIL%20OF%20BALTIMORE

 

Anytime Old Crow brings up an item, look and see what the courts have determined in the above articles.  My research indicates total legal costs for Indy were about $400,000 and nearly one half a million dollars for Maryland. And neither could get courts to make one side pay for the other; cover your own costs.

 

I'm still looking for official documents where everything tangible to the city of Baltimore was supposed to be given back to Baltimore...

 

No wiki style entertainment was used in the production of the post.

 

Nice research and thanks for posting it, but I read it already. When you check these documents , you will see I'm right on. I don't think I said anywhere that Baltimore won the Eminent Domain lawsuit against Indy !

[The Old Crow]

OK, found it.  Final settlement for dismissal of condemnation suit.

 

http://account.archivestree.com/index.php/Pages/271

 

http://account.archivestree.com/index.php/Pages/689

 

Balt fans mad then, many still are.

 

 

More great research that just backs up my argument about the Super Bowl 5 trophy. I'm assuming baltimore could get replica's made for the 1958 and 1959 Ed Thorpe Championship trophies as we were awarded all Baltimore memorabilia associated with the Baltimore Colts. I wonder if this is why the Baltimore Colt Championship banners are not flown in Indy ? Also, it wasn't me that wrote that note ! LOL

[The Old Crow]

Couldn't have said it better.  I've not lived in Baltimore or Indy. I totally empathize with Old Crow and other Baltimore fans. The Colts were not just a franchise nor not just a team, but were part of the fabric of Baltimore, Maryland for many years. But it is what it is.  I said in an earlier thread, if the Colts moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, I would be a "Kalamazoo Colts" fan. If they had done like the Browns franchise and left the "Colts" name in Baltimore, I would have remainded a "Baltimore Colts" fan. But they are the "Indianapolis Colts", so I'm an Indy Colts fan. I honestly think of Johnny Unitas, John Mackey and Bert Jones as a part of the same family as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. I know that sounds incredibly bad to Baltimore or Indy fans, but it's the way I feel. Go Colts since 1967. Go Colts through 2067 and beyond.

 

 

It is certainly an unusual situation when you become a fan of a team, they move,  and retain the logo. I wonder how many Oiler fans became Titan fans, and whether Houston fans would have become Tennessee Oiler fans just because they liked the Oiler logo ? I think this is a situation when fans living outside the host city find it easier to continue to follow the team, versus people in that city who were stung by the move. 

[The Old Crow]

Couldn't have said it better.  I've not lived in Baltimore or Indy. I totally empathize with Old Crow and other Baltimore fans. The Colts were not just a franchise nor not just a team, but were part of the fabric of Baltimore, Maryland for many years. But it is what it is.  I said in an earlier thread, if the Colts moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan, I would be a "Kalamazoo Colts" fan. If they had done like the Browns franchise and left the "Colts" name in Baltimore, I would have remainded a "Baltimore Colts" fan. But they are the "Indianapolis Colts", so I'm an Indy Colts fan. I honestly think of Johnny Unitas, John Mackey and Bert Jones as a part of the same family as Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison. I know that sounds incredibly bad to Baltimore or Indy fans, but it's the way I feel. Go Colts since 1967. Go Colts through 2067 and beyond.

 

I hope I'm still around to cheer on the Ravens, Colts, or anybody in 2067 !

[The Old Crow]

Agree with this. I still get that pride feeling now, as I did as a kid, when I see anything to do with the Colts. Visiting my in laws in Indy really gets me excited to walk into any retail store near Indy and see all the Colts "stuff" for sale. Everything here is Ravens and Redskins with some Steelers and Cowboys stuff sprinkled in. I STILL get that fuzzy feeling. And like King Colt said above a lot of that has to do with basically the same uniform and "Colts" never changing. I hope they never do! 

 

I actually see Colts stuff in the shops like Poor Boys, that cater to Ravens and Orioles memorabilia and clothing. However, most of it is retro Colts stuff that is associated with Baltimore, but I'm sure Jim Irsay gets a cut of the action from the rights. They have a nice, big shop right at the Indy airport. I don't know why Jim Irsay would ever want to change the uniforms or logos. The new era stuff stinks. 

[Jeffrey Jeff]

All excellent points on a historic game. The missed throw and Ted's conservatism stand out most to me. The other facts were huge as well.

Definitely all true,,,,,,,,,,I wonder if we'd of beat Denver the next week.....I am pretty sure if we did we would of beat Dallas in the Superbowl that year,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Monte Johnson Raiders linebacker broke his neck in that game,,,,,,,,,trying to stop one of our running backs from getting into the endzone from like the one yard line,,,,,,,,,,,Monte Johnson had a terrific game for the Raiders,,,,,,He was out like 2 plays after breaking neck and didn't know he had a broken neck till 6months after,,,,,,,,,,,,He had a ziger down arms and legs after the play Raiders kept him out 2 plays sent him back in Monte Johnson respected that Colt team he talked highly of the Colts and that game here is a link to the replay w/comments from both Baltimore Colts and Oakland Raider players

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=1977+baltimore+colts+oakland+raiders+divisioanl+playoff+game+ghost+to+the+post&FORM=VIRE3#view=detail&mid=C32E324BD19F2013B265C32E324BD19F2013B265

[ColtsBlueFL]

More great research that just backs up my argument about the Super Bowl 5 trophy. I'm assuming baltimore could get replica's made for the 1958 and 1959 Ed Thorpe Championship trophies as we were awarded all Baltimore memorabilia associated with the Baltimore Colts. I wonder if this is why the Baltimore Colt Championship banners are not flown in Indy ? Also, it wasn't me that wrote that note ! LOL

I have no pro Indy agenda, just on tat is supported as truth. 

[The Old Crow]

I have no pro Indy agenda, just on tat is supported as truth. 

I think there has been a lot of the research and knowledge that has been put forth in the thread ,and you get a pretty clear and accurate picture of what went down. Whether we think it was a good or bad thing, it's in the history books now. I don't think it's so much about having a pro Indy or pro Baltimore sports agenda, it's about getting the whole story about what led up to the move, and it's causes.

I think if you asked the average Baltimore sports fan today if they are happy with the Ravens, they would tell you yes, and with 2 Super Bowls and five AFC Championship games in 18 years, they think the move of the Colts to Indy was ultimately a good thing. Indy is happy with one Super Bowl and consistently good teams over the years. I think the hard thing for the Baltimore fan is the legacy and history thing. You can't really tell the Steeler fan you have 6 Championships because four were with the Colts, and two with the Ravens. Even though you attended many of those games, and were part of the Championships , all before Bob Irsay, they don't belong to you anymore, or didn't happen because the Colts moved to Indy. I think it's that disenfranchisement with the team you rooted for history, that is the hardest thing to deal with, not so much the move itself.

I also think ultimately the move benefitted the Irsay's, not only financially, but greeting them back to the Midwest where they were from, and more comfortable. Because of the early acrimony Irsay had with fans, the Baltimore press, and politicians, I think the relationship was beyond repair. What Baltimore wanted then , and has now, is local ownership in the form of Steve Bisciotti with the Ravens, who like many of us, grew up a Baltimore Colts fan. That is why many of the old Baltimore Colts still work for the Ravens.

[Blueblazes]

It is certainly an unusual situation when you become a fan of a team, they move,  and retain the logo. I wonder how many Oiler fans became Titan fans, and whether Houston fans would have become Tennessee Oiler fans just because they liked the Oiler logo ? I think this is a situation when fans living outside the host city find it easier to continue to follow the team, versus people in that city who were stung by the move. 

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. As much as it pained me when the Colts moved out of Baltimore (no offense Indy people--I didn't know at the time Indy fans would be great fans, too), I can't imagine the hurt I would have felt if I had been living in Baltimore during the legendary years and then see the team, the players and the franchise move away.

[lollygagger8]

Thanks for posting this. 

 

Sometimes, people can only take so much. They just have enough of the other party and throw up their hands after they try to work stuff out. Happens all the time with people. 

 

All I know, is that everything worked out the way it was supposed to. 

[The Old Crow]

Thanks for posting this. 

 

Sometimes, people can only take so much. They just have enough of the other party and throw up their hands after they try to work stuff out. Happens all the time with people. 

 

All I know, is that everything worked out the way it was supposed to.

For the most part.

[King Colt]

It is certainly an unusual situation when you become a fan of a team, they move,  and retain the logo. I wonder how many Oiler fans became Titan fans, and whether Houston fans would have become Tennessee Oiler fans just because they liked the Oiler logo ? I think this is a situation when fans living outside the host city find it easier to continue to follow the team, versus people in that city who were stung by the move. 

I moved to Houston in 1979 and while I was (am) a Colts fan I did love how much these people loved the Oilers and Bum Philips was admired by all to say the least  It was the nightmare of nightmares when they could not get over the Steelers hump. I would say many, many fans followed their player to Tennessee even as insane as it was for Houston to be without pro football there was still a strong "family" connection to the players. Houston fans will tell they love their Texans but the Oilers are sorely missed here and will be until all the old fans pass on.

[The Old Crow]

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. As much as it pained me when the Colts moved out of Baltimore (no offense Indy people--I didn't know at the time Indy fans would be great fans, too), I can't imagine the hurt I would have felt if I had been living in Baltimore during the legendary years and then see the team, the players and the franchise move away.

I think that all fans want to brag about old Championships , players, or accomplishments. God knows Steeler fan do ! That's the hard thing for the Baltimore fan. According to the NFL and Hall of Fame, our football history begins in 1996. Sure we can celebrate the old Baltimore Colts, but you are told as a fan that these accomplishments are part of a different city that didn't exist in the NFL at the time. I know to many on here, the Colts are the Colts wherever they are, but I think on some level, whether we hail from Indy or Baltimore , we take pride in community, as a fan, and the bonding that takes place as a city, when you win a Super Bowl. You feel like it was your Super Bowl win, not just Carroll Rosenbloom's, Jim Irsay's, or Steve Bisciotti's. I think everyone is over the move and is in a better place, but that past history is the crux of the matter. I guess if the Colts stunk like the Cardinals did in moving from Chicago, St . Louis, and Arizona, no one would care . The differentiation with the Colts, and others that have moved except for maybe the Dodgers and Giants, is the historic and winning nature of the team. Most everyone has fond memories, and wants to be part of it, or learn about it.

I know the Irsay buying the team and franchise argument, but I'm not addressing that. I'm just saying that it's a hard scenario to stomach from a fan and historical perspective , when you look back at the past

[The Old Crow]

I moved to Houston in 1979 and while I was (am) a Colts fan I did love how much these people loved the Oilers and Bum Philips was admired by all to say the least  It was the nightmare of nightmares when they could not get over the Steelers hump. I would say many, many fans followed their player to Tennessee even as insane as it was for Houston to be without pro football there was still a strong "family" connection to the players. Houston fans will tell they love their Texans but the Oilers are sorely missed here and will be until all the old fans pass on.

The odd thing with the Houston and Tennessee deal is they eventually changed their name from Oilers to Titans. I wonder how many Houston fans went back to the Texans after the name change. I would have just left the Oiler name and history back in Houston, and started out fresh. Bud Adams was at least owner when the Oilers won their two AFL Championships, but Bob Irsay was not part of the Baltimore Colt Championships. That could be a reason for changing the name, but not history in Tennessee, but I'm not sure why Bob Irsay did it. I guess the logos were worth something, but by 1983, the horseshoe was a bit of a laughingstock.

My contention is, the Irsay's would have made as much money and more, with an Indy centric logo and uniforms. When you have great players like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck , people will flock to buy your logos, jerseys, and other memorabilia.

[The Old Crow]

Didn't want to make a separate thread about it, but as this is somewhat the Colts historical thread, the great Earl Morrall passed away in Florida a few days ago. He was 79. He was a great guy, and will probably go down as the greatest back up quarterback of all time. He was instrumental in Baltimore Colt and Miami Dolphin Super Bowl winning teams, but will be best known as the starting Colt's quarterback upset in Super Bowl 3 by the Jets.