The New Defensive Scheme

[BmoreColt]

Since Polian would consider moving away from the awful Tampa 2, there is a system out there that would utilize our current personnel more effectively and not require such a drastic overhaul. THE NEW DEFENSIVE SCHEME, the Colts need to utilize is a combination of the Cover 2 and the 4-3 Under! Many are calling for the switch to the 3-4, which would require a system overhaul and many personnel changes, but by using more of a 3-4 Hybrid, which is the 4-3 Under, we will utilize the strengths of our current roster! Jerry Hughes the thought renowned bust will be used as a stand-up pass rusher, which happens to be what he was successful at doing in college! This means Hughes plays as the SAM LB on the LOS, rushing the passer and sometimes covering the TE, this means the Will and Mike are essentially both Mike’s just on the left and right much like a nickel defense. This would bode well for using Hughes if he is going to stay on this team allowing Hughes, Conner and Wheeler to be interchanged, depending on the formation either 4-3 Under or Cover 2, or the situation, whether it be a pass rushing (Hughes or Wheeler), run stopping (Conner), or coverage down (Wheeler). This would bring an extra pass rusher to the line of scrimmage on every down when using the 4-3 Under, which is a very effective pressure formation and run stopping formation! Then on third downs revert more to a normal Cover 2 look, similar to what the Colts have but with the corners playing man coverage as they would in the 4-3 Under and the Mike linebacker not dropping into a soft zone down the field. In the 4-3 Under the Colts could target and draft another physical linebacker to pair with Angerer like a Manti Te’o! As mentioned in the 4-3 Under since the SAM is on the LOS which really is a 5-2 front, then two linebackers are both acting Mikes, which happens to be both Manti and Angerer’s strength. In order to make the normal Cover 2 and this 4-3 Under combination work to improve the defense, the Colts need to be a little more proactive in Free Agency targeting positions of dire need like a NT (Soliai) and a SS (Landry). They also need to draft some physical corners with great man coverage skills. Thoughts?

Link for defenseive fronts: http://www.shakinthe...ver-slide-front

[ZombieGusta]

155 or 335

[Exodus]

I freaking love the idea!!! Hughes as a rushing OLB would be a great idea. I do however think the scheme needs to run like a 4-3, but have the confusion aspect like a 3-4.

[BmoreColt]

The Links:

This is the strategy and responsibilities for the 4-3 Under

http://www.football-defense.com/4-3-under-front/

This is the advantageous of the 4-3 Under

http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/9/28/1695461/miami-unc-the-4-3-over-slide-front

[Ramblinwreck7]

Here's my take. Our base defense needs to be the cover 2, with man coverage and zone coverage being interchangeable, depending on the defensive situation. We can use the 4-3 under as a blitzing formation, like you said, but I wouldn't rely on it as the base defense. We could also use the 4-3 over and other creative varitions of the 4-3.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Ramblinwreck7

[chad72]

Play Cover 2 but when you blitz, roll the safety on the blitzing side towards the outside WR, Spags does that all the time. It is a risk you take because if the blitz gets picked up, the other safety on the other side has more area to cover but then, the whole idea of blitzing with a couple of Pro Bowl DEs is expecting the QB to get rid of the ball quickly. Normally, a QB gets rid of the ball to the hot read from the side where the blitz is coming from.

Plus, we have always had speedy safeties, never understood why we could not do safety blitzes from the edge, especially if we are in nickel formation.

What we need is a good 4-3 DC.

Edited November 2, 2011 by chad72

[BmoreColt]

What exactly does 155 or 335 mean? Are you referring the defensive line and how that would look under the new 4-3 Under System? In the 4-3 Under the linemen structure would be 5-1-3-5 and in the Colts Tampa 2 formation the linemen structure is 5-1-3-5.

http://www.fans247.com/showthread.php?41217-The-Basic-4-3-Defensive-Alignment

[Ramblinwreck7]

Play Cover 2 but when you blitz, roll the safety on the blitzing side towards the outside WR, Spags does that all the time. It is a risk you take because if the blitz gets picked up, the other safety on the other side has more area to cover but then, the whole idea of blitzing with a couple of Pro Bowl DEs is expecting the QB to get rid of the ball quickly. Normally, a QB gets rid of the ball to the hot read from the side where the blitz is coming from.

Plus, we have always had speedy safeties, never understood why we could not do safety blitzes from the edge, especially if we are in nickel formation.

What we need is a good 4-3 DC.

Pitsburgh does this all the time. When Troy Polamalu comes down, it's a sure fire bet that James Harrison is blitzing. Against the Patriots, the Steelers blitzed, Tom Brady threw it to the hot read WR where the blitzers came from, and Polamalu hit the WR right after he caught the ball stopping him in his tracks well short of a first down. It was beautiful, I was thinking to myself, "That's how you play defense!"

This makes so much sense. The blitz is designed to give less time for the quarterback to throw the ball, so if he gets rid of the ball quickly to the usual target which is the hot read WR, then there should be a SS or FS coming down to fill the hole left by the blitzing LB's or CB's. Even if the quarterback completes the pass to the hot read WR, the safety is there to make the play and stop the WR short of the first down marker.

[Ramblinwreck7]

What exactly does 155 or 335 mean? Are you referring the defensive line and how that would look under the new 4-3 Under System? In the 4-3 Under the linemen structure would be 5-1-3-5 and in the Colts Tampa 2 formation the linemen structure is 5-1-3-5.

http://www.fans247.com/showthread.php?41217-The-Basic-4-3-Defensive-Alignment

Please explain to me how the colts have 14 players on the field in their Tampa 2 formation? If they do it is not working very well hahha.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Ramblinwreck7

[doogansquest]

Pitsburgh does this all the time. When Troy Polamalu comes down, it's a sure fire bet that James Harrison is blitzing. Against the Patriots, the Steelers blitzed, Tom Brady threw it to the hot read WR where the blitzers came from, and Polamalu hit the WR right after he caught the ball stopping him in his tracks well short of a first down. It was beautiful, I was thinking to myself, "That's how you play defense!"

This makes so much sense. The blitz is designed to give less time for the quarterback to throw the ball, so if he gets rid of the ball quickly to the usual target which is the hot read WR, then there should be a SS or FS coming down to fill the hole left by the blitzing LB's or CB's. Even if the quarterback completes the pass to the hot read WR, the safety is there to make the play and stop the WR short of the first down marker.

Okay, so the Steelers played Brady well once in seven tries. Normally he annihilates them. Rodgers annihilated them. Brees did last year too. Manning is 5-1 against them. Blitzing just doesn't work with regularity against good QB's. It is good to mix in once and a while, but basically, a defensive coordinator has to completely outsmart a great QB to beat him.

As to the tackle, it was Troy Polamalu. It's not as though any other team in football could even consider rotating their safety around like that and have success. We would get burned for trying.

On the whole, I am for a move to a base Cover 2 with more m2m play, but there's no way to look at a team that plays defense like the Steelers as a fundamentally sound method for success. It has far more to do with the ridiculous personnel on that side of the ball. Namely, the guy with all of the hair.

[Jason_]

Please explain to me how the colts have 14 players on the field in their Tampa 2 formation? If they do it is not working very well hahha.

I'm pretty sure one of you is referring to player personnel (1-5-5, 1 DL, 5 LB and 5 DB or 3-3-5, 3 DL, 3 LB, 5 DB) whereas the other is referring to the number technique for the DL players...5, 1, 3, 5...the 2 DE's are 5-technique, UT is a 3-technique and the NT is a 1 technique

[coltfaninnewyork]

The key to pitts win over new england was not the blitz,it was the coverage.Ike taylor completely shut down welker.

[GoColts00]

I was advocating for a Hybrid Defense before the season started. IF that were to occur I think are D would be a heckuva lot better. There wouldn't be 62 points hanging on the board, that's for sure!!!

Edited November 2, 2011 by GoColts00

[Ramblinwreck7]

The key to pitts win over new england was not the blitz,it was the coverage.Ike taylor completely shut down welker.

Yes.

[BmoreColt]

Right I was referring to the technique, personnel wise it is still the same in the 4-3 Under, 4 Defensive Linemen, 3 Linebackers, 2 Corners, 2 Safeties. But the SAM LB plays on the LOS, having the appearance of a 5-2 defensive front.

[chad72]

Yes.

The key to pitts win over new england was not the blitz,it was the coverage.Ike taylor completely shut down welker.

True. The concept was borrowed from the Jets playoff game. Use your #1 CB to shut down Welker and #1 safety to shut down Gronkowski. Play your #2 CB on Branch or Ocho Cinco and your #3 CB in nickel on Hernandez. Right now, till Ocho Cinco is up to pace with the playbook and is on the same page as Brady, they don't have a threat who can beat 1-on-1 coverage deep consistently like a Randy Moss, so teams are figuring out how to deal with the small ball, playing more man with the Pats' WRs and TEs as opposed to zone which Brady picks apart.

I do anticipate the Pats to work their RBs more in the passing game, plus use someone like Slater instead of Ocho Cinco.

The key is your #1 CB shutting down Welker and #1 safety shutting down Gronkowski. A lot of teams do not have that luxury. Plus, the Pats O could have used more time of possession, just like Peyton's issues. Now the Pats fans know first hand and not second hand how a D not getting off the field and not generating enough punts or turnovers can hurt their field position and QB's perception. It was not a stretch that the Pats won their SBs on the strength of their experienced D generating good field position consistently for their O. Even a QB like Joe Montana needs all the help he can get in the playoffs from his D and ST.

Edited November 2, 2011 by chad72

[coltfaninnewyork]

True. The concept was borrowed from the Jets playoff game. Use your #1 CB to shut down Welker and #1 safety to shut down Gronkowski. Play your #2 CB on Branch or Ocho Cinco and your #3 CB in nickel on Hernandez. Right now, till Ocho Cinco is up to pace with the playbook and is on the same page as Brady, they don't have a threat who can beat 1-on-1 coverage deep consistently like a Randy Moss, so teams are figuring out how to deal with the small ball, playing more man with the Pats' WRs and TEs as opposed to zone which Brady picks apart.

I do anticipate the Pats to work their RBs more in the passing game, plus use someone like Slater instead of Ocho Cinco.

The key is your #1 CB shutting down Welker and #1 safety shutting down Gronkowski. A lot of teams do not have that luxury. Plus, the Pats O could have used more time of possession, just like Peyton's issues. Now the Pats fans know first hand and not second hand how a D not getting off the field and not generating enough punts or turnovers can hurt their field position and QB's perception. It was not a stretch that the Pats won their SBs on the strength of their experienced D generating good field position consistently for their O. Even a QB like Joe Montana needs all the help he can get in the playoffs from his D and ST.

I think the pat's could answer that with a speed wideout,like randy moss was.

[SubZero]

I freaking love the idea!!! Hughes as a rushing OLB would be a great idea. I do however think the scheme needs to run like a 4-3, but have the confusion aspect like a 3-4.

I definatly agree, except instead of Manti T'eo i think we should trade back of the first round get Alameda Ta'amu then stock up on players

[JoKeR]

As long as Hughes doesn't have to cover, I mean ever. QBs would pick on him so bad. And if he was blitzing almost every down then someone is going to be wide open off the snap or there's going to be someone open deep (no safety help).

[Ramblinwreck7]

As long as Hughes doesn't have to cover, I mean ever. QBs would pick on him so bad. And if he was blitzing almost every down then someone is going to be wide open off the snap or there's going to be someone open deep (no safety help).

That's why I would only use it as a blitzing formation. Or if Hughes was being used to help stop the run since he is 255 lbs and that is big for an OLB in a 4-3.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Ramblinwreck7

[BmoreColt]

Yeah that’s why I said the 4-3 Under and a Cover 2 combination, both with man to man coverage. I also indicated that Hughes and Wheeler could be interchanged on pass rushing downs in the Under look, with Conner on run downs and Wheeler and Conner on Passing downs so when we are in that formations it’s not quite as predictable and then the use of the Cover 2 on other downs. If you read the link I posted, the 4-3 Under is great for stopping the run and pass rushing, not to mention we have the personnel to run the 4-3 Under and the Cover 2 is not far off from what we do already, just less zones in the secondary, more man coverage! All we need to do is get another linebacker my preference Manti Te’o, a corner, strong safety (maybe Landry), and nose tackle (Soliai) via free agency or the draft and the defense can work under both schemes!

[Ramblinwreck7]

Yeah that’s why I said the 4-3 Under and a Cover 2 combination, both with man to man coverage. I also indicated that Hughes and Wheeler could be interchanged on pass rushing downs in the Under look, with Conner on run downs and Wheeler and Conner on Passing downs so when we are in that formations it’s not quite as predictable and then the use of the Cover 2 on other downs. If you read the link I posted, the 4-3 Under is great for stopping the run and pass rushing, not to mention we have the personnel to run the 4-3 Under and the Cover 2 is not far off from what we do already, just less zones in the secondary, more man coverage! All we need to do is get another linebacker my preference Manti Te’o, a corner, strong safety (maybe Landry), and nose tackle (Soliai) via free agency or the draft and the defense can work under both schemes!

1. Why do you post with such a small font?

2. I don't think we need another LB. We are good enough there already. I am hoping that Ernie Sims will replace Conner because Conner is not very good in pass coverage, that's where he needs to improve a lot.

3. Don't just limit our defense to the 4-3 under and the cover 2, we can use the 4-3 over, the cover 1, the cover 3. All we need is more talent in the secondary and a beast NT. By beast NT, I mean someone that can explode into the backfield and make a play, someone who can fight through double teams and get into the backfield. Not a guy who just stuffs the run. We could use a guy like that for depth, but that is kind of what Antonio Johnson does already.

[BmoreColt]

I type in Word and I type large responses normally, I want all to be viewable, but is this big enough for you?

In the 4-3 Under both the linebackers are acting as Mike (Middle Linebackers) just one is on the right the other is on the left, like a nickel package, therefore we would need another Middle LB, and Te’o would be the epitome of what we want to draft at MLB.

The Cover 3 is a lot of zone in the secondary, I am not limiting the Colts to anything. The 4-3 Over uses the Wide 9 technique of one of the DE’s which leaves a large hole to gash in the running game, if you check out my links the Over is best suited for defending the pass. We both agree we need more talent on the defense, but I would call Soliai a beast NT, I would not put Mookie on his level. And our 3 Tech (Drake Nevis) is the disruptor of the DT’s, the NT or 1 Tech is the anchor taking on double teams, who’s job is to be stout!

[Ramblinwreck7]

I type in Word and I type large responses normally, I want all to be viewable, but is this big enough for you?

In the 4-3 Under both the linebackers are acting as Mike (Middle Linebackers) just one is on the right the other is on the left, like a nickel package, therefore we would need another Middle LB, and Te’o would be the epitome of what we want to draft at MLB.

The Cover 3 is a lot of zone in the secondary, I am not limiting the Colts to anything. The 4-3 Over uses the Wide 9 technique of one of the DE’s which leaves a large hole to gash in the running game, if you check out my links the Over is best suited for defending the pass. We both agree we need more talent on the defense, but I would call Soliai a beast NT, I would not put Mookie on his level. And our 3 Tech (Drake Nevis) is the disruptor of the DT’s, the NT or 1 Tech is the anchor taking on double teams, who’s job is to be stout!

I could read the font anyways, I was just wondering why it was smaller.

I think we need to use a wide variety of 4-3 defensive plays and formations to be creative and aggresive.

And about the 1-tech DT (NT). It would be preferable if the NT could get a good push and make plays in the backfield instead of just holding the point of attack. Since Soliai is a 3-4 NT, I don't know if he offers anything as a pass rusher.

[BmoreColt]

Your absolutely right! The 1 Tech NT needs to get a push and also be able to make plays in the backfield, as well as anchor and handle double teams. I think Soliai is exactly that guy, especially since in Miami he was required to be responsible for two gaps as a 0 Tech NT, in Indy he would only be responsible for one gap. Then it would become pick your poison on the Colts D line, you can’t double team everybody!

[swflacoltsfans]

I personally like the present defense where we let the receivers catch the ball and chase them down the field. Seems to be working fine this year.

[gilmoreag]

BMore, I completely agree with this defensive idea. Great thinking. You should tweet Irsay this proposal.

[274ridge]

great idea didnt understand the hughes pick when it happened and he doesnt look comfortable with his hand of the ground , great idea

[JoKeR]

Still, with basically a 5th lineman almost every play its going to leave holes in coverage, special in man. Colts would need a SS with excellent coverage skills, and Angerer isn't showing anything in coverage so far.

Im not infatically saying that it wouldn't work but it would make me nervous.

I'd like to see it mixed in alittle with whatever scheme the Colts use next year. But I'd rather use Angerer as the OLB in that formation at the moment, he's a good blitzer.

[Ramblinwreck7]

Still, with basically a 5th lineman almost every play its going to leave holes in coverage, special in man. Colts would need a SS with excellent coverage skills, and Angerer isn't showing anything in coverage so far.

Im not infatically saying that it wouldn't work but it would make me nervous.

I'd like to see it mixed in alittle with whatever scheme the Colts use next year. But I'd rather use Angerer as the OLB in that formation at the moment, he's a good blitzer.

I response to Pat Angerer being used as the OLB, Philip Wheeler is a better blitzer. I didn't like Angerer at SAM, but he seems to play better at MLB. I wonder how he would do at WLB.

[Jason_]

I response to Pat Angerer being used as the OLB, Philip Wheeler is a better blitzer. I didn't like Angerer at SAM, but he seems to play better at MLB. I wonder how he would do at WLB.

That's actually what I'd like to see is Angerer moved to WILL. I'd love to draft either Manti Te'o or Luke Kuechly (finally got to see this guy play...he's pretty special) for the MIKE and Nigel Bradham (from FSU, probably a 4th/5th round pick) for SAM and have Conner, Wheeler and either Edds or Moten for depth. Might have to keep Wheeler starting at SAM initially but Bradham I think Bradham would eventually overtake him in the starting line up once he's ready...if he's not ready from day one though having 2 rookie starting LBs might be a bit risky. Either way, it'd give us a solid LB rotation and depth.

[Smitto]

Ive never really was ever excited for the offseason until the draft came around but this season i cant wait.. should be alot of changes coming to his team. Hopefully coaching wise and scheme.

[Ramblinwreck7]

That's actually what I'd like to see is Angerer moved to WILL. I'd love to draft either Manti Te'o or Luke Kuechly (finally got to see this guy play...he's pretty special) for the MIKE and Nigel Bradham (from FSU, probably a 4th/5th round pick) for SAM and have Conner, Wheeler and either Edds or Moten for depth. Might have to keep Wheeler starting at SAM initially but Bradham I think Bradham would eventually overtake him in the starting line up once he's ready...if he's not ready from day one though having 2 rookie starting LBs might be a bit risky. Either way, it'd give us a solid LB rotation and depth.

No! Wheeler is my boy from Georgia Tech! He's got what it takes, just continue to give him the chance and he will succeed!

[supercolt3099]

The problem is not the cover two defense it's the coaching and exacution of the defense.

The second biggest problem in the secondary is not getting any plays from the safeties (excluding Bethea). Caldwell and Lefeged disappear too often or show up to late in games.

The biggest problem with the secondary is the CB playing 10/15 yards off the line. Lacey used to be the biggest problem. I don't how many games I hollered at the TV to please take him out of the game.

In the cover two the CB and LB can not allow the WR and TE to get a clean release off the line.

1. this helps the defense get to their zones before they are attacked

2. also gives them more time to recognize and read the offensive player routes

3. gives our pass rush a little more time to get to the quarterback

4. creates a smaller passing window

5. but most of all it disrupts the QB/WR timing

Hate to say it but this is why I miss Ron Meeks because he at least understood this concept of the cover two.

The problem with DL and everyone knows is that we need one more true NT. Or we could bring the DL into a tighter formation to keep the LBers clean to make plays. That will also stop a lot of runs up the middle.

[mightisright]

The key to pitts win over new england was not the blitz,it was the coverage.Ike taylor completely shut down welker.

Agreed. The key to ANY defensive scheme is having the personnel! We simply don't have enough talent right now on defense, no matter what the scheme is. We gotta get a shutdown corner, another great linebacker, and 1-2 good safeties in FA and Draft this offseason.

[stonehart1234]

We need to fire are whole defensive staff and hire an all new defensive staff that has a whole new scheme.

1. fire are defensive staff

2. hire an all new defensive staff

3. draft the best and athletic players on defense

4. create an all new defensive concept and scheme to wear they have to show all there skills on every play

5. train them the best

[Coltssouth]

We need to fire are whole defensive staff and hire an all new defensive staff that has a whole new scheme.

1. fire are defensive staff

2. hire an all new defensive staff

3. draft the best and athletic players on defense

4. create an all new defensive concept and scheme to wear they have to show all there skills on every play

5. train them the best

And who would you suggest we start with in replacing them?

Note;

Please answer in a manner that is thoughtful and intelligent, as it will determine my view of you.

I did not ask this lightly, if you give a reasonable response, I can be persuaded, but just throwing it out there with no basis on a reasonable fix, but merely saying we need change (easy way out) is not cool imo.

[ColtsBlueFL]

What is this new defense called? Bend until you break defense?

[colts89]

We need to fire are whole defensive staff and hire an all new defensive staff that has a whole new scheme.

1. fire are defensive staff

2. hire an all new defensive staff

3. draft the best and athletic players on defense

4. create an all new defensive concept and scheme to wear they have to show all there skills on every play

5. train them the best

Yes, precisely lets get to it boys this man has the key to our problems so descriptively written to our very eyes

[Ramblinwreck7]

And who would you suggest we start with in replacing them?

Note;

Please answer in a manner that is thoughtful and intelligent, as it will determine my view of you.

I did not ask this lightly, if you give a reasonable response, I can be persuaded, but just throwing it out there with no basis on a reasonable fix, but merely saying we need change (easy way out) is not cool imo.

My only choice for defensive coordinator right now is John Chavis of LSU. That's if we don't keep Larry Coyer.