Caldwell/coaching (Merge)

[GoColts8818]

Pats were only 11-5 without brady

Pittsburgh 3-1 w/o Ben that is with charlie batch and a rookie dixon who had never played a pro down.

Jimmy Johnson could out coach caldwell in his sleep .2 years after 1-15 superbowl.

Caldwell 2 years after superbowl maybe 2-14. just saying.

Pats were not built around Brady the way the Colts are built around Manning. They were built around a very good o-line and defense at the time

Steelers are also not built around Big Ben the way the Colts are built around Manning. The Steelers aren't even a passing team. They want to run the ball and throw the ball when they can.

Not the best two examples you could come up with. How would the Saints, Chargers, or Packers (all teams that are built around their QB like the Colts are) do if they lost their QB? My guess is that they would struggle like the Colts are. Ther is a reason we pay Peyton one fifth of the salary cap we expect him to cover up some holes. You can't just lose that and expect the team to over come it. Sorry you can't. If we could we wouldn't be paying Peyton that much money.

Clearly they are holes beyond Peyton but I am also hearing a lot of people say that this team would probably be 5-1 with Manning right now. You know what that tells me? Even with the other holes the biggest problem is we don't have Peyton Manning.

[SilentHill]

Utter non

More evidence of nothing. Claiming Caldwell has no passion for his team is just nonsense.

You can't be serious? Have you been watching games? Caldwell looks like a statue on the sidelines. You could replace him with a fathead and no one would notice.

[SilentHill]

Well if it was just Peyton, then I guess Tony D wasn't that good really either and all the other coaches Peyton played for, they all stunk. Remove Ben from Pitts and do they do as well? How come Bill B wasn't able to get the Pats in the Playoffs when Tom went down? I guess Jimmie Johnson only won because of his QB? There is no way any coach could win this season with how the Colts are constructed and who is missing. When Healthy this team successed with Caldwell as coach. So you are going to punish him because his star QB was to stupid to get his health issued addressed sooner or because the GM/Owner sunk incredible amounts of Cap space into about 4-5 players? Yep that's Caldwell's fault.

Dungy was only a good coach at best, middle of the road, maybe slightly above average. Caldwell is on the other side of that line. Yes, Pitt went 3-1 without Ben. Bill B had nothing to do with that, the team had a winning record when the QB went don on the fly. Manning has been out much longer than that and Painter had ample time to learn the offense. Mind you we have 0 chance at a winning record.

Manning runs the offense. Caldwell needs to leave. We need someone good at coach. I'd love to have Gruden.

[bayone]

Well if it was just Peyton, then I guess Tony D wasn't that good really either and all the other coaches Peyton played for, they all stunk. Remove Ben from Pitts and do they do as well? How come Bill B wasn't able to get the Pats in the Playoffs when Tom went down? I guess Jimmie Johnson only won because of his QB? There is no way any coach could win this season with how the Colts are constructed and who is missing. When Healthy this team successed with Caldwell as coach. So you are going to punish him because his star QB was to stupid to get his health issued addressed sooner or because the GM/Owner sunk incredible amounts of Cap space into about 4-5 players? Yep that's Caldwell's fault.

Pats had an 11 win season, was only season an 11 win team didnt make playoffs, they lost by tiebreaker , so really was a good season Bill B coached, I remember he was amazed with that record he didn't make playoffs

Edited October 21, 2011 by bayone

[jskinnz]

You can't be serious? Have you been watching games? Caldwell looks like a statue on the sidelines. You could replace him with a fathead and no one would notice.

I am very serious. Only a fool would make the argument that Caldwell has no passion for his team. That is pure ignorance.

Now you can say that Caldwell does not have the outwardly passion that you personally want to see in your football coach, but the very claim that he essentially could care less about his job or his team is mind-numbing. There are 32 head NFL coaches in the entire world and none of those guys reached their position by being passionless about the sport, the job or their team. None.

[HungarianColtsFan]

This topic turned into a debate if Caldwell is good or a bad HC, and I don't know the answer.

Facts:

We stand at 0-6

We couldn't manage, that Peyton Manning is injured.

Our D. is pathetic

We have no special team work

Painter isn't Manning, but i think with plays better fitting Painter's abilities our offense could have done better. We shouldn't blame only Manning's injury for the poor season. Jim Caldwell has led colts into SB in his first year (I think it was little too early for him), but next season wasn't such good, and there were signs of future problems, those should have been managed.

The players aren't such bad.

[BIGugly]

I am very serious. Only a fool would make the argument that Caldwell has no passion for his team. That is pure ignorance.

Now you can say that Caldwell does not have the outwardly passion that you personally want to see in your football coach, but the very claim that he essentially could care less about his job or his team is mind-numbing. There are 32 head NFL coaches in the entire world and none of those guys reached their position by being passionless about the sport, the job or their team. None.

Well, maybe one. 23-63 is the second reason we don't need him. He was hired because he was a buddy of Dungy's, should be fired because he is incompetent. That's three strikes.

[dn4192]

Dungy was only a good coach at best, middle of the road, maybe slightly above average. Caldwell is on the other side of that line. Yes, Pitt went 3-1 without Ben. Bill B had nothing to do with that, the team had a winning record when the QB went don on the fly. Manning has been out much longer than that and Painter had ample time to learn the offense. Mind you we have 0 chance at a winning record.

Manning runs the offense. Caldwell needs to leave. We need someone good at coach. I'd love to have Gruden.

If Gruden is so "good" then why is he still in the ESPN booth and not coaching? I mean there have been a number of opportunities out there to "coach" and he is still not coaching. Exactly what does Gruden done that is better then what Caldwell has done?

[SilentHill]

If Gruden is so "good" then why is he still in the ESPN booth and not coaching? I mean there have been a number of opportunities out there to "coach" and he is still not coaching. Exactly what does Gruden done that is better then what Caldwell has done?

We ll since IMHO Caldwell has none nothing at the head coaching level except blow games I'm going to go with "everything"

Again that is my opinion but you asked for it.

Edited October 21, 2011 by SilentHill

[dn4192]

Well, maybe one. 23-63 is the second reason we don't need him. He was hired because he was a buddy of Dungy's, should be fired because he is incompetent. That's three strikes.

Caldwell I believe is 24-14 in the regular season as a head coach, he is the coach with 2 divisional titles, a SB appearance and like a 2-2 record in the playoffs?

Just wondering...what is Peytons record in the playoffs?

[dn4192]

We ll since IMHO Caldwell has none nothing at the head coaching level except blow games I'm going to go with "everything"

Again that is my opinion but you asked for it.

So having a winning record, 2 division titles in 2 full seasons, a SB appearance is nothing? Wow...

[Restored]

So having a winning record, 2 division titles in 2 full seasons, a SB appearance is nothing? Wow...

When you have possibly the greatest QB of all-time, that is to be the expecatation. Great coaches lead teams to championships. In 09', the Colts had argueably one of the most talented teams in the Manning era and still didn't win the SB in part to some questionable coaching calls in the SB.

[SilentHill]

So having a winning record, 2 division titles in 2 full seasons, a SB appearance is nothing? Wow...

That wasn't caldwell, it was Manning. Caldwell was just a long for the ride.

I challenge you to name at least 3 times when he made a good coaching call that turned into a game changing great play.

[dn4192]

That wasn't caldwell, it was Manning. Caldwell was just a long for the ride.

I challenge you to name at least 3 times when he made a good coaching call that turned into a game changing great play.

Given I am not a head coach or haven't played the game or don't have insider information I can't. But this idea that he is a bad coach is a joke. This idea that it's all Peyton is a joke. If it's all Peyton then he gets all the blame for coming up very SMALL. throughout his career. I mean who has choked more in his career...Peyton or Caldwell? I mean heck, Peyton came up small in both SB and yet he is da man?

[dn4192]

When you have possibly the greatest QB of all-time, that is to be the expecatation. Great coaches lead teams to championships. In 09', the Colts had argueably one of the most talented teams in the Manning era and still didn't win the SB in part to some questionable coaching calls in the SB.

We lost that SB due to Manning..not the coaches. I don't remember Caldwell throwing a bullet to the Saints DB to run back for a TD.....

[BillCowher]

Caldwell I believe is 24-14 in the regular season as a head coach, he is the coach with 2 divisional titles, a SB appearance and like a 2-2 record in the playoffs?

Just wondering...what is Peytons record in the playoffs?

If the Colts had Kubiak or Del Rio as HC the past few years we would probably have had the same record, although, maybe a perfect season and a SB win. His record is not impressive. Ever wonder why he has received zero votes for coach of the year even with these stats?

Edited October 21, 2011 by BillCowher

[dn4192]

If the Colts had Kubiak or Del Rio as HC the past few years we would probably have had the same record, although, maybe a perfect season and a SB win. His record is not impressive. Ever wonder why he has received zero votes for coach of the year even with these stats?

So we are basing his performance off of a media vote? We could have had any coach, we were not goig to play our starters in those last two games and it was the right call, especially the Buffalo game and the weather conditions.

[jskinnz]

If the Colts had Kubiak or Del Rio as HC the past few years we would probably have had the same record, although, maybe a perfect season and a SB win. His record is not impressive. Ever wonder why he has received zero votes for coach of the year even with these stats?

Who freaking cares about coach of the year votes. That is a ridiculous claim.

[BillCowher]

So we are basing his performance off of a media vote? We could have had any coach, we were not goig to play our starters in those last two games and it was the right call, especially the Buffalo game and the weather conditions.

I disagree. Caldwell tore the guts out of this team with that Jets game. Definately tore the guts out of the fan base....which I know he could care less. Buffalo would have been much different going in 15-0. It was a team of destiny and Caldwell pulled the plug on it. Would have we won the SB? Who knows but we do know how it turned out.

[Restored]

Given I am not a head coach or haven't played the game or don't have insider information I can't. But this idea that he is a bad coach is a joke. This idea that it's all Peyton is a joke. If it's all Peyton then he gets all the blame for coming up very SMALL. throughout his career. I mean who has choked more in his career...Peyton or Caldwell? I mean heck, Peyton came up small in both SB and yet he is da man?

So if its not all Peyton yet its not all Caldwell? You sound worse than a politician. Its not all Peyton and it never has been. The only playoff loss IMO you can pin most of the blame on Peyton was the 2003 AFC Championship game up in NE where he threw 4 INT's. Other than that, its been mostly bad plays on both sides of the ball. Peyton came up small in the SB? Um, he directed a good number of long drives in that SB in horrible weather and threw a TD pass that helped us win. The Saints SB wasn't really Peyton either but go ahead and believe what you want. Caldwell hasn't done anything to prove he is a good HC. The fact is he took over a already well-built team and can't win a single game without the starting QB.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Adam Noucateri

[jskinnz]

When you have possibly the greatest QB of all-time, that is to be the expecatation. Great coaches lead teams to championships. In 09', the Colts had argueably one of the most talented teams in the Manning era and still didn't win the SB in part to some questionable coaching calls in the SB.

Completely ridiculous.

1) Manning's Int - Wayne's poor route

2) Freeney's ankle

3) Garcon's drop

4) Baskett not securing the kick

Those are all components of player execution and not anything having to do with Caldwell. The PLAYERS make those plays and you are talking about a Super Bowl winning coach.

[BillCowher]

Who freaking cares about coach of the year votes. That is a ridiculous claim.

The point is no one has given Caldwell credit for his record with Manning playing.

[jskinnz]

The point is no one has given Caldwell credit for his record with Manning playing.

I understand the point - it ain't hard to follow. It is still a ridiculous claim.

Paul Freaking Brown, Vince Lombardi, or Bill Walsh would not have won Coach of the Year with the Colts that year. That award is always given to a coach who brings his team from nowhere - like Mike Smith in 2009.

[BillCowher]

Who won Coach of the Year in 2007?

[jskinnz]

Who won Coach of the Year in 2007?

BB - undefeated season will do that. And the point?

Look, trying to use Caldwell's lack of Coach of the Year votes as evidence of is ability, or lack thereof, to coach is simply not correct.

[BillCowher]

BB - undefeated season will do that. And the point?

Look, trying to use Caldwell's lack of Coach of the Year votes as evidence of is ability, or lack thereof, to coach is simply not correct.

I'm not trying to make the point that votes = ability but rather no one gives Caldwell credit for what he has done while Manning has been the QB so his record as a HC the past few years should not be overly praised.

I know the topic of Caldwell is a polarizing issue. I assume you think he is a decent HC (fairly new to Forum so I do not know much about your previous posts) and making these arguments supporting your position are a good read. I just dissagree.

[Restored]

Completely ridiculous.

1) Manning's Int - Wayne's poor route

2) Freeney's ankle

3) Garcon's drop

4) Baskett not securing the kick

Those are all components of player execution and not anything having to do with Caldwell. The PLAYERS make those plays and you are talking about a Super Bowl winning coach.

Right and like the PLAYERS didn't make plays to get them to the Super Bowl in the first place right? Oh but you'd come back and say they got to the SB because of good coaching and not the players right? LOL. Hank Baskett being on the team in the first place sounds like a coaching choice to me since hes the one who decided if Baskett would be playing. The Manning-Wayne play, who made the play call? Manning? If so, I understand how good he is but last time I checked the Offensive Coordinator is suppose to be the one making the general play call so once again thats coaching. Freeney's ankle and Garcon's drop I'll give you but nothing else.

Look if we were atleast close to .500 or even had a 1-2 wins I'd say you could give Caldwell some credit for holding this team together in the absence of Peyton but that clearly isn't the case.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Adam Noucateri

[BIGugly]

The point is no one has given Caldwell credit for his record with Manning playing.

Since the 0-14 debacle, the record with Manning playing is 12-8. (not counting the 2 losses he started and Painter finished vs Jets, Buffalo).

Overall record since the debacle is 12-16.

[jskinnz]

Right and like the PLAYERS didn't make plays to get them to the Super Bowl in the first place right? Oh but you'd come back and say they got to the SB because of good coaching and not the players right? LOL. Hank Baskett being on the team in the first place sounds like a coaching choice to me since hes the one who decided if Baskett would be playing. The Manning-Wayne play, who made the play call? Manning? If so, I understand how good he is but last time I checked the Offensive Coordinator is suppose to be the one making the general play call so once again thats coaching. Freeney's ankle and Garcon's drop I'll give you but nothing else.

Look if we were atleast close to .500 or even had a 1-2 wins I'd say you could give Caldwell some credit for holding this team together in the absence of Peyton but that clearly isn't the case.

You are really lost in this argument. Your Super Bowl logic defies description.

[jskinnz]

I'm not trying to make the point that votes = ability but rather no one gives Caldwell credit for what he has done while Manning has been the QB so his record as a HC the past few years should not be overly praised.

I know the topic of Caldwell is a polarizing issue. I assume you think he is a decent HC (fairly new to Forum so I do not know much about your previous posts) and making these arguments supporting your position are a good read. I just dissagree.

I really don't believe that Caldwell is all that as a Head Coach. I truly don't. But what I can't stand for are the made-up mindless reasons that he cannot do the job. Somewhere along the line his calm sideline demeanor became evidence that he can't coach. That is completely ridiculous. And I found your post on his coach of the votes to be along those same lines. I understand your point much better now. And the nonsense that Caldwell cost them the Super Bowl is mindless as there are any number of plays that players had a chance to make but didn't. That above any other reason is why they lost to the Saints.

It seems to me that people just say the words Jim Caldwell and all reasonable thought is lost.

Edited October 21, 2011 by jskinnz

[smittywerb]

Completely ridiculous.

1) Manning's Int - Wayne's poor route

2) Freeney's ankle

3) Garcon's drop

4) Baskett not securing the kick

Those are all components of player execution and not anything having to do with Caldwell. The PLAYERS make those plays and you are talking about a Super Bowl winning coach.

Ummm, isn't that the coach's job to make sure his team execute? So let me get this straight, it's not Caldwell's fault why we lost the SB, it's Polian's fault for drafting and signing players who can't execute? This is what I mean. Everyone is passing the blame onto the players but who coaches and signs those players?

[jskinnz]

Ummm, isn't that the coach's job to make sure his team execute? So let me get this straight, it's not Caldwell's fault why we lost the SB, it's Polian's fault for drafting and signing players who can't execute? This is what I mean. Everyone is passing the blame onto the players but who coaches and signs those players?

So Garcon, a player who was key in getting them to the Super Bowl but drops a potential TD and that is the fault of the coach or the GM?

Or Manning making a poor throw on a route they run all the time is somehow Caldwell's fault?

[BillCowher]

I really don't believe that Caldwell is all that as a Head Coach. I truly don't. But what I can't stand for are the made-up mindless reasons that he cannot do the job. Somewhere along the line his calm sideline demeanor became evidence that he can't coach. That is completely ridiculous. And I found your post on his coach of the votes to be along those same lines. I understand your point much better now. And the nonsense that Caldwell cost them the Super Bowl is mindless as there are any number of plays that players had a chance to make but didn't. That above any other reason is why they lost to the Saints.

It seems to me that people just say the words Jim Caldwell and all reasonable thought is lost.

You're right on the SB. I want to blame Caldwell but it is probably unfair as your earlier post states. I think the reason I am turned off by Caldwell is the way he handled the the 14-0 team going into the Jets game. When he threw that game away I lost my respect for the man and now I find myself questioning every single thing he does. It is something that goes against the grain not trying to win a game. (I know this goes into a huge new discussion and I don't want to open up that can of worms again but wanting you to see my mindset.)

You are right about the words Jim Caldwell and reasonable thought....do you think it goes back to that Jets game?

[dn4192]

You're right on the SB. I want to blame Caldwell but it is probably unfair as your earlier post states. I think the reason I am turned off by Caldwell is the way he handled the the 14-0 team going into the Jets game. When he threw that game away I lost my respect for the man and now I find myself questioning every single thing he does. It is something that goes against the grain not trying to win a game. (I know this goes into a huge new discussion and I don't want to open up that can of worms again but wanting you to see my mindset.)

You are right about the words Jim Caldwell and reasonable thought....do you think it goes back to that Jets game?

I think the above statement is the "KEY" reason why people dislike or want Caldwell around. which is sad, Caldwell did the right thing, those two games ment nothing and a shot at "history" is not worth losing key players to injuires. Caldwell along with consultation with the teams GM did the right thing and it's sad Fans won't let that go and allow it to blur their view of the Colts Head coach.

[SilentHill]

I disagree. Caldwell tore the guts out of this team with that Jets game. Definately tore the guts out of the fan base....which I know he could care less. Buffalo would have been much different going in 15-0. It was a team of destiny and Caldwell pulled the plug on it. Would have we won the SB? Who knows but we do know how it turned out.

Maybe if we actually play at Buffalo Hank Basket learns how to catch a ball... just saying.

[WSO]

You play the win the game, injuries are apart of the game and its hard to avoid them. Yes benching your players is an option but when you are 14-0 and leading the game and pull the starters that just leaves a bad taste in the fans mouths.

We should just start benching Manning the entire pre-season to avoid injury so he can be ready for the regular season :rolleyes:

[BIGugly]

In the Super Bowl, New Orleans offense only scored two TD's. Both of those were on a short field.

The first as a result of the onside kick fiasco. That one we got back on the very next drive.

The second as a result of a failed 51 yard FG attempt. He had not hit a 51 yarder in 3 years. Coaching.

IN ADDITION, we insisted on 3 occassions to run right on 3rd and short. We had not done that successfully all year. The play should have pulled from the play book, shredded, burned, and it's ashes eaten. Coaching.

He did not even talk to his players on the sideline. He did not try to encourage them, chastise them, kick their *, NOTHING. Is he afraid of them?

He BITES. He may be a good administrater, but he is a LOUSY game coach..

[Jason_]

Look if we were atleast close to .500 or even had a 1-2 wins I'd say you could give Caldwell some credit for holding this team together in the absence of Peyton but that clearly isn't the case.

This part I agree with. A lot of people keep saying Caldwell gets a pass because Manning isn't playing. If the Colts were suffering only from inept QB play then this would be a fair argument. However if anything, we have seen that QB play is not the primary reason for us having 0 wins. There have been deficiencies in several aspects on both offense and defense. Painter however has been playing well enough to win games. The fact that the team has played competitively in spurts but not enough to put a whole game together and pull out a win goes directly on the shoulders of the coach. If he can turn things around even a little bit and pull out 3-5 wins then fine, give him another year. However if the Colts go 0-16 or even 1-15 then he should be fired, imo. I want to see Coyer replaced regardless of final record.

[dn4192]

I find it interesting to see how some here think a HC should act/react on the sidelines of a game to qualify them as a good/great HC. It would be nice if their decision was based off something more then how a coach acts, but I guess that is what we are stuck with.

[Restored]

This part I agree with. A lot of people keep saying Caldwell gets a pass because Manning isn't playing. If the Colts were suffering only from inept QB play then this would be a fair argument. However if anything, we have seen that QB play is not the primary reason for us having 0 wins. There have been deficiencies in several aspects on both offense and defense. Painter however has been playing well enough to win games. The fact that the team has played competitively in spurts but not enough to put a whole game together and pull out a win goes directly on the shoulders of the coach. If he can turn things around even a little bit and pull out 3-5 wins then fine, give him another year. However if the Colts go 0-16 or even 1-15 then he should be fired, imo. I want to see Coyer replaced regardless of final record.

Surprisingly, I agree with you pretty much across the board on this one Jason lol.