Luck ranked #10 by Jaws in QB rankings

[NewColtsFan]

Very true, I'm personally hoping Pep will take a few plays out of the Arians play book, because a few of our pieces have tremendous big play ability. However, I would like to see a little more running plays, and a little more short yardage stuff.

 

Everything you just said is what the Colts have been saying.   Pep/Grigson/Pagano all seem to be on the same page with what you're hoping to see.

 

I think you'll be happy with the end result....     at least,  that's what I'm hoping for as well...

[BOTT]

Do you have a soft spot for Steeler fans? lol.

 

Balance is important for sure but too much short yardage and you run into the main issue for the Pats which is loss of the big play. There is not a more efficient O than the Pats but it takes longer to score and hurts you if you are behind.

It would help if the patriots had some playmaking receivers.

[John Dee]

Perhaps AM should be up for Mod status...

 

I mean after all he is a Pat, Colt, and Steeler expert.....

 

I don't care one lick about Steeler fans. Just surprising to hear someone designate the lot of them as "not very bright."

 

I'd gladly trade the Colts' big play offense of 2012 with the Patriots league-leading 34.8 points/game. But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. We can be a team with the potential to stretch the field, but, specifically in 2012, we could have game planned around our weaknesses a little more to keep Luck from getting sacked 41 times. I'm not saying we should scrap the vertical elements of the offense. I just want us to be more balanced and efficient.

 

Those two words -- balanced and efficient -- have never been used to describe a Bruce Arians offense. For better or for worse...

[Superman]

Perhaps AM should be up for Mod status...

 

I mean after all he is a Pat, Colt, and Steeler expert.....

 

She can have my spot. I'm on my best behavior as a mod...

[John Dee]

oh...  AM is a she?

 

Well that explains everything...

 

Fear not, all is well.

She can have my spot. I'm on my best behavior as a mod...

[Jules]

oh...  AM is a she?

 

Well that explains everything...

 

Fear not, all is well.

 

Not all of us women are the same though.

[Jules]

It would help if the patriots had some playmaking receivers.

 

Oh they are there. Imaginary but they are there....

[John Dee]

Dammit I was hoping to sneak that JAB, obviously aimed at a certain Patriot fan, past all of my Colt sisters who KNOW WHAT TIME OF DAY IT IS EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK... 

 

You know I got your back Lady J...       And the rest of my fellow Colt relatives...         not at all aimed at ANY of YOU.

Not all of us women are the same though.

[amfootball]

oh...  AM is a she?

 

Well that explains everything...

 

Fear not, all is well.

I am neither male or female. I am just amfootball. I find gender just gets in the way ... lol.

[John Dee]

heheee..    I won't comment further... 

 

But I guess I do owe you an apology...    I just could not resist the temptation at taking an EASY shot at you.....

 

 

 

But you are still way off base...    ;)

 

I am neither male or female. I am just amfootball. I find gender just gets in the way ... lol.

[Jules]

I am neither male or female. I am just amfootball. I find gender just gets in the way ... lol.

 

Thread just got real.

[Jules]

darnit I was hoping to sneak that JAB, obviously aimed at a certain Patriot fan, past all of my Colt sisters who KNOW WHAT TIME OF DAY IT IS EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK... 

 

You know I got your back Lady J...       And the rest of my fellow Colt relatives...         not at all aimed at ANY of YOU.

 

I know. Lady J was just teasing ya.

[ColtsBTM12]

I am a huge Colts fan and I live just south of Houston. 3 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find a Texans fan and now that they've had two good seasons the past two years you'd be hard pressed to find a fan of any other team. I swear 95% of Texans fans are bandwagoners, but I guess that is just the way it is in today's world of sports.When you lose no one cares and when you win everyone wants to be a part of it.

[amfootball]

It would help if the patriots had some playmaking receivers.

I would settle for just one.

[AntonMcG]

You need to go back and re-read the posts if you think I am painting a picture. I am just observing the picture my friend.

 

Alll Qbs are given audibles in case the defense is stacked against a certain play and certainly Luck as the number one pick who is known for his cerebral abilities would be allowed to. How often he did it, who knows? But it is very obtuse to assume the plays were all on Arian.

 

Steelers fans may have thanked you before the season but when they saw their team disintegrate at the end in large part due to Ben's frosty relationsup with Haley, I bet they wished Arians was back considering the job he did in Indy to the tune of COY.

 

 

You appear to have an incessant issue of believing a Co-Ordinator and Head Coach are interchangeable roles. Arians' Coach of the Year honors were for his leadership of the team, his playcalling was basically irrelevant in relation to the award.

 

Personally, I don't think he should have won COY. It was the obvious Hollywood pick because of the story attached, but it ignores all the stuff put in place by Pagano during his 8 months before his illness. Like most however, I feel Arians did a great job in his Head Coaching capacity.

 

That being said, I believed in the Arians' offense more than most around here. I think it opened up the field and had the potential to become multi-dimensional and incredibly dangerous. I loved what he did with Reggie in pre-snap motion, and I loved what he did with Hilton deep. I have made these points constantly, although not many here agreed. Superman was indeed one of them, so I do not think you can accuse him of flip-flopping... he appreciated Arians as a Head Coach, not an OC, the differentiation should be obvious.

 

However, I understand why we are changing philosophy from a personnel and skill-set perspective, we did not have the O-Line to execute, we did not make the most of our TEs, and our redzone efficiency was not up the scratch, though of course Luck must share the blame for that. Plus, it was always going to be a stat-killing offense, which makes Luck look bad, especially to those nationwide who do not watch every play. Fans love defending their QB, so they want the stats to back it up, Arians offense was never going to provide that.

 

Luck can play an aggressive, vertical offense, but despite what you claim, it is not a perfect match to his skillset. He did not have an offense built for him like RG3, Brady etc. He had Arians offense.

 

Luck will succeed as a 'Defense Dissector', creating mismatches and throwing accurate 'West-Coast' style passes, with occassional shots thrown in for good measure. That is what Manning does, and Brady and Brees... they create mismatches and they exploit them, Luck is of the same mould.

[AntonMcG]

I am a huge Colts fan and I live just south of Houston. 3 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find a Texans fan and now that they've had two good seasons the past two years you'd be hard pressed to find a fan of any other team. I swear 95% of Texans fans are bandwagoners, but I guess that is just the way it is in today's world of sports.When you lose no one cares and when you win everyone wants to be a part of it.

 

I think that's a little unfair. They are the youngest franchise in the league, fanbases do not just pop-up over night.

[ColtsBlueFL]

A thought to share.....

 

When it comes to rankings,  unless you, yourself, did the list,  then there is no ranking since the dawn of time in any sport that people are going to agree with every pick.     

 

I don't agree with every pick, but --- on balance --- I think the list is fine.    Do I have a quibble here and there?   Sure.   But, who cares.     I might see a player as needing to be higher, and you might see the same guy as needing to be lower.     

 

It's like the draft,   everyone sees the same thing differently.

 

Put another way..........    you like to offer your opinions and you put out lots of rankings.    You have one list out right now on who you see as the top coaches.    From where I stand there are one or two comments that agree with you and everyone else is saying..... "This guy is too high,  and that guy is too low...."

 

Everyone sees the same thing differently.

 

But Jaw's was a successful QB in the NFL for more than 10 years.   And for ESPN,  he studies tape religiously.   Not occasionally,   but all the time.    That literally is his job,  to study tape, and offer an opinion.

 

I'd strongly recommend going back to my first post with the link that's the thread I started over on the NFL Page of this website....   it's an ESPN link and you can read the script of every player but simply clicking on the same....

 

You can read Jaws' review and try to understand his opinion..... 

 

Hope that helps!    

 

Agreed, this is an educated opinion derived from studying every throw in every situation of every QB on every team from one who has been through it himself and knows what is expected and possible of a QB.

 

"ESPN's Ron Jaworski studies NFL quarterbacks all season long. He's watched game film after game film, breaking down every throw from all 32 teams' signal callers. Starting in Week 4, he then builds a big board of NFL starting quarterbacks, ranking them based on his breakdowns."

 

These rankings ebb and flow with the fortunes and misfortunes of each QB and decisions/throws attempted.  It is not a general eye test from a casual, and often, emotionally attached fan.  That said, casual fan can disagree, and if his/her homerism hasn't biased his/her mindset in favor of their own guy and downplay the 'other' guy, then they're not not really a fan then, are they? 

 

I'm a P. Manning and A. Luck homer.  No question.  But I stabilize and recalibrate my overall picture with an outside look in from those such as Jaws to keep some perspective.  But it isn't mandatory.  And, IMO, some of the most entertaining fans do  not. ;)

[amfootball]

You appear to have an incessant issue of believing a Co-Ordinator and Head Coach are interchangeable roles. Arians' Coach of the Year honors were for his leadership of the team, his playcalling was basically irrelevant in relation to the award.

 

Personally, I don't think he should have won COY. It was the obvious Hollywood pick because of the story attached, but it ignores all the stuff put in place by Pagano during his 8 months before his illness. Like most however, I feel Arians did a great job in his Head Coaching capacity.

 

That being said, I believed in the Arians' offense more than most around here. I think it opened up the field and had the potential to become multi-dimensional and incredibly dangerous. I loved what he did with Reggie in pre-snap motion, and I loved what he did with Hilton deep. I have made these points constantly, although not many here agreed. Superman was indeed one of them, so I do not think you can accuse him of flip-flopping... he appreciated Arians as a Head Coach, not an OC, the differentiation should be obvious.

 

However, I understand why we are changing philosophy from a personnel and skill-set perspective, we did not have the O-Line to execute, we did not make the most of our TEs, and our redzone efficiency was not up the scratch, though of course Luck must share the blame for that. Plus, it was always going to be a stat-killing offense, which makes Luck look bad, especially to those nationwide who do not watch every play. Fans love defending their QB, so they want the stats to back it up, Arians offense was never going to provide that.

 

Luck can play an aggressive, vertical offense, but despite what you claim, it is not a perfect match to his skillset. He did not have an offense built for him like RG3, Brady etc. He had Arians offense.

 

Luck will succeed as a 'Defense Dissector', creating mismatches and throwing accurate 'West-Coast' style passes, with occassional shots thrown in for good measure. That is what Manning does, and Brady and Brees... they create mismatches and they exploit them, Luck is of the same mould.

Thank you for your well-articulated response. I have just a few issues with your points.

 

First, I have no problem understanding the difference between the roles of HC and OC but when said HC is also the OC and he wins COY then his play calling was more than good enough. If his OC capabilities were as destructive as some believe here then there is no way he would have had the success he had and won COY. In fact, one could argue that the O is what carried the team so he deserves even more credit IMO.

 

Also, I could not disagree more with your belief that Arians was the Hollywood pick for COY and here is why. Look at the Saints last year. They knew for months that Payton was not going to be there and yet their bevy of HCs were terrible. Brees pretty much carried that team to the little success it enjoyed in spurts. Arians was thrust into the HC role on a team not picked to do anything unlike the Saints who were one of the NFC favs previous to Payton’s suspension and Arians rips off 10 wins in 13 games. What he did was unprecedented especially with a rookie QB and a complete re-org from the top down. He was the obvious and most deserving choice for COY.

 

In terms of Luck, maybe it is just me but he looked real comfortable in Arians offense. You say it did not suit him then why did the GM AND Pagano bring him on? If you love what Pagano did prior to the season then you also have to blame him for Arians being his OC. They obviously thought Arians O would suit Luck and it is hard to argue that it didn’t.

 

Your point about fans wanting to defend their QB is laughable. No owner or GM could care less what a QBs stats are or what the fans think as long as there are W’s coming. Bottom line is winning. Look at Flacco. His stats are mediocre at best but I am sure every Colt fan would take a ring at the expense of Luck’s stats. I know Ravens fans are pretty happy and can always say our guy may not light it up like Rodgers, Brady or Manning but he is a champion. Winning trumps all.

 

Lastly, I am not so sure running a short game is Luck’s strength. Like I said, he seemed real comfortable in Arians offense and like you said, the O was very dynamic with some short comings. It is much more difficult to run a short game then a long game. Not sure if Luck has the patience to dink and duck down the field. All we know for sure is he was in ROY discussions with Arians offense. I get the part about keeping him upright but why not just improve the line like the Ravens did for Flacco? If anything they proved long ball is very effective and can be done without risk to the QB.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The final score was 24-9. And an offense that was known to score during the regular season didn't get any TDs. But maybe the new additions this offseason help prevent that from happening again.

 

The guy was (and often still is) maligned on here, but Bruce Arians not only devised the game plans , but called the plays all season.  He developed the Baltimore game plan as well but ended up in the hospital.  I'm sure Bruce would have called a different game than Clyde. Or even made adjustments to his plan to help enable "Andy" to succeed as he had done all year.

 

We have new addition's in both coaching and players.  But, to "help prevent that from happening again"  we just need to keep Pep Hamilton healthy and let the chips fall where they may.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thank you for your well-articulated response. I have just a few issues with your points.

 

First, I have no problem understanding ...

 

snipped for brevity

 

... very effective and can be done without risk to the QB.

 

Wow. I'm surprised some, but I don't have much quarrel with any of this.

 

Some of the other stuff... well others have handled it.

[Qwiz]

I am a huge Colts fan and I live just south of Houston. 3 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find a Texans fan and now that they've had two good seasons the past two years you'd be hard pressed to find a fan of any other team. I swear 95% of Texans fans are bandwagoners, but I guess that is just the way it is in today's world of sports.When you lose no one cares and when you win everyone wants to be a part of it.

That's just not true at all. We were selling out games way before we got good. As a matter of fact, we had an 80 game sellout streak by 2011. And since we've been improving since then, I'm sure the streak has increased even more. Everyone I know has loved the Texans since we first discovered what the team name was going to be.

We've won two playoff games in the past two years, hardly enough to make every game a sellout and attract "bandwagoners".

[Qwiz]

I think that's a little unfair. They are the youngest franchise in the league, fanbases do not just pop-up over night.

He pulled that right out of his behind. The Texans have had a strong fanbase since they appeared in the league, and ask any one of us and you will see that we simply did not enjoy NFL football until we got another team. Not many flocked to the Cowboys, either.

[Qwiz]

The guy was (and often still is) maligned on here, but Bruce Arians not only devised the game plans , but called the plays all season.  He developed the Baltimore game plan as well but ended up in the hospital.  I'm sure Bruce would have called a different game than Clyde. Or even made adjustments to his plan to help enable "Andy" to succeed as he had done all year.

 

We have new addition's in both coaching and players.  But, to "help prevent that from happening again"  we just need to keep Pep Hamilton healthy and let the chips fall where they may.

Yes, but assuming he turns out to be what everyone hopes he will be, anyway. I think the key is how the players mesh but you're right, the offensive sytem itself and how quickly the guys learn it and how well it is actually executed is in fact very important as well.

[AntonMcG]

Thank you for your well-articulated response. I have just a few issues with your points.

 

First, I have no problem understanding the difference between the roles of HC and OC but when said HC is also the OC and he wins COY then his play calling was more than good enough. If his OC capabilities were as destructive as some believe here then there is no way he would have had the success he had and won COY. In fact, one could argue that the O is what carried the team so he deserves even more credit IMO.

 

Also, I could not disagree more with your belief that Arians was the Hollywood pick for COY and here is why. Look at the Saints last year. They knew for months that Payton was not going to be there and yet their bevy of HCs were terrible. Brees pretty much carried that team to the little success it enjoyed in spurts. Arians was thrust into the HC role on a team not picked to do anything unlike the Saints who were one of the NFC favs previous to Payton’s suspension and Arians rips off 10 wins in 13 games. What he did was unprecedented especially with a rookie QB and a complete re-org from the top down. He was the obvious and most deserving choice for COY.

 

Fair enough, but it also seems like you are refusing to acknowledge the framework that Pagano had already put in place, they were both responsible for what the Colts achieved. "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail." Pagano had spent 8 months preparing his team, and whilst Arians did a sensational job (which I fully acknowledge), he did not do it alone, and thus COY should have been shared with Pagano at least.

 

 

 

In terms of Luck, maybe it is just me but he looked real comfortable in Arians offense. You say it did not suit him then why did the GM AND Pagano bring him on? If you love what Pagano did prior to the season then you also have to blame him for Arians being his OC. They obviously thought Arians O would suit Luck and it is hard to argue that it didn’t.

 

It's not that hard to argue with. Luck was considered the most NFL-ready QB to come out since Elway, and that was down to Stanford's system suiting him down to the ground. Arians system was very very different. However, I have already said I liked Arians system, I believe Luck would have adapted longterm if the right pieces were put around him and a running game was better established, but last season he seemed uncomfortable unless it was in the last 2 minutes of games and he had more control of what he did. I can see what Grigson and Pagano were trying to do by bringing Arians is, his QBs of the past loved him, but some statements made by both men this off-season would indicate that they are happy to move to a more appropriate system for Luck's sake.

 

 

Your point about fans wanting to defend their QB is laughable. No owner or GM could care less what a QBs stats are or what the fans think as long as there are W’s coming. Bottom line is winning. Look at Flacco. His stats are mediocre at best but I am sure every Colt fan would take a ring at the expense of Luck’s stats. I know Ravens fans are pretty happy and can always say our guy may not light it up like Rodgers, Brady or Manning but he is a champion. Winning trumps all.

 

No, it isn't laughable, you just misinterpreted its premise. I never said a GM/Owner would place any presedence on it... but fans will. Which is why, in my mind, a lot of fans hated the Arians system. Again, I believe in its merits, with the correct personnel in place. However, a lot of fans (both Steelers and Colts) will have problems with an offense that are not stat-friendly to its QB, which is what I attribute to a lot of the negativity toward Arians.

 

Lastly, I am not so sure running a short game is Luck’s strength. Like I said, he seemed real comfortable in Arians offense and like you said, the O was very dynamic with some short comings. It is much more difficult to run a short game then a long game. Not sure if Luck has the patience to dink and duck down the field. All we know for sure is he was in ROY discussions with Arians offense. I get the part about keeping him upright but why not just improve the line like the Ravens did for Flacco? If anything they proved long ball is very effective and can be done without risk to the QB.

 

It is the system he flourished in at Stanford, the reason he was so heralded coming out. It seems as if you believe Luck is a good QB, who could do really well in a specific system. Though, perhaps with a glint of bias, I would argue that he is potentially great, who would strive in any offense given his complete skillset, however, if you really study him, it is clear that a West-Coast type system, the utlizes play-action and no-huddle, makes the most of his tangibles and intangibles.

 

In parting, whilst I think this new offense we are installing will potentially be a great thing for Luck, I do not believe he could have had a better baptism of fire than Arians gave him last year. He was far from perfect, but a lot was asked of him, and that experience will stand to him. Russell Wilson was much more efficient but was not asked to do as much... I would rather take Luck with all his incompletions and interceptions because the experience he gained is something that cannot be bought.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Some of them, yes. Luck attempted more passes 15+ yards downfield than any other QB last year. As a rookie, with young receivers, and a poor offensive line. He took 41 sacks, and escaped another 20 with scrambles and throws under pressure (some of which resulted in picks). So, yes, absolutely, Arians' passing scheme and play calling is to blame for some of Luck's interceptions and incompletions. There's simply no doubt about it.

 

Yes, some of it.  But Luck caused much of it on himself. Here are some Arians quotes. This started in October (quote from Jets game) but went all year as well-

 

"He looked like a rookie," said Bruce Arians. "We wish he had some throws back. Put it in the memory bank and learn from it. We do need to do a better job picking up some blitzes, not turning those guys loose in him, but he still made some great plays and throws, but the early ones I bet he'd like to have those back. He also needs to throw the ball away and not take unnecessary hits. He's do he'll-bent on helping his team win and making a play, he's got to realize its okay to throw it away and not take that shot."

 

few weeks later-

 

“He took some hits in the game he shouldn’t have taken and he’s got to learn to quit doing that,” Arians said. “It didn’t get Ben until last year; he held onto a ball when he got his ankle sprained and played on one leg the rest of the year. We don’t want that happening to Andrew. There are times to create and there’s times to get rid of it and play the next down. He’s just got to learn it."

 

“You’re going to get pressured as a quarterback and you’re going to get hit. Just don’t take the unnecessary ones.”

 

There were many short video clips last year where Arians would pat Luck on the helmet and say something like "there's times to take that shot, and that ain't it. That's why we have a drag route underneath"   ... etc.

 

But Arians didn't want to curb Lucks desire to create or make a play either.  Even when teams started headhunting Andrew. Just teach.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21041192/bruce-arians-tired-of-andrew-luck-taking-cheap-shots-to-the-head

 

"Yeah, you send them in," Arians said Wednesday, shrugging. "You keep sending them in and ask, 'What's going to be done?'"

 

Arians continued to send in tapes to the NFL, and teach Luck. But Luck is the one who often stared Reggie Wayne open and took hits in the process instead of dumping off to the hot or tossing it away.  They were in this together, Not blaming one over the other. Arians did introduce many drag/crossing routes and dumps to the backs, especially later in the year.  But then would not use a running game for long stretches to help out???  I would never expect a Air Coryell minded coach to completely dump his skill set and philosophy to incorporate a different philosophy (Walsh WCO)and make the whole team cram a new Playbook to make up for deficiencies in personnel. Grigs and Pagano did this part right, let another take Arians then instill a new OC with new O scheme.

 

Everyone, including Arians himself, agree that Luck took way too many hits, and Grigson realized Arians exposed a poor and often  injured O-Line that had to be upgraded no matter what scheme was to be in place.  I feel it was a three headed monster that was the cause last season. Blame to spread around. But will let everyone place full blame on Bruce. Water under the bridge.

 

If they stay healthy, o-line issue could gel and be a thing of the past.  Pep will reduce likely the frequency of a long developing vertical attack to an opportune one and hopefully introduce a less predictable offense.  Luck should be familiar with it, and hopefully everyone else learns the new O and gets on same page quickly enough to execute well.

[Superman]

Yes, some of it.  But Luck caused much of it on himself. Here are some Arians quotes. This started in October (quote from Jets game) but went all year as well-

 

"He looked like a rookie," said Bruce Arians. "We wish he had some throws back. Put it in the memory bank and learn from it. We do need to do a better job picking up some blitzes, not turning those guys loose in him, but he still made some great plays and throws, but the early ones I bet he'd like to have those back. He also needs to throw the ball away and not take unnecessary hits. He's do he'll-bent on helping his team win and making a play, he's got to realize its okay to throw it away and not take that shot."

 

few weeks later-

 

“He took some hits in the game he shouldn’t have taken and he’s got to learn to quit doing that,” Arians said. “It didn’t get Ben until last year; he held onto a ball when he got his ankle sprained and played on one leg the rest of the year. We don’t want that happening to Andrew. There are times to create and there’s times to get rid of it and play the next down. He’s just got to learn it."

 

“You’re going to get pressured as a quarterback and you’re going to get hit. Just don’t take the unnecessary ones.”

 

There were many short video clips last year where Arians would pat Luck on the helmet and say something like "there's times to take that shot, and that ain't it. That's why we have a drag route underneath"   ... etc.

 

But Arians didn't want to curb Lucks desire to create or make a play either.  Even when teams started headhunting Andrew. Just teach.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21041192/bruce-arians-tired-of-andrew-luck-taking-cheap-shots-to-the-head

 

"Yeah, you send them in," Arians said Wednesday, shrugging. "You keep sending them in and ask, 'What's going to be done?'"

 

Arians continued to send in tapes to the NFL, and teach Luck. But Luck is the one who often stared Reggie Wayne open and took hits in the process instead of dumping off to the hot or tossing it away.  They were in this together, Not blaming one over the other. Arians did introduce many drag/crossing routes and dumps to the backs, especially later in the year.  But then would not use a running game for long stretches to help out???  I would never expect a Air Coryell minded coach to completely dump his skill set and philosophy to incorporate a different philosophy (Walsh WCO)and make the whole team cram a new Playbook to make up for deficiencies in personnel. Grigs and Pagano did this part right, let another take Arians then instill a new OC with new O scheme.

 

Everyone, including Arians himself, agree that Luck took way too many hits, and Grigson realized Arians exposed a poor and often  injured O-Line that had to be upgraded no matter what scheme was to be in place.  I feel it was a three headed monster that was the cause last season. Blame to spread around. But will let everyone place full blame on Bruce. Water under the bridge.

 

If they stay healthy, o-line issue could gel and be a thing of the past.  Pep will reduce likely the frequency of a long developing vertical attack to an opportune one and hopefully introduce a less predictable offense.  Luck should be familiar with it, and hopefully everyone else learns the new O and gets on same page quickly enough to execute well.

 

You make tons of good points, and you and I have gone over this in detail in the past. I'll say two things:

 

1) I don't place full blame on Arians for Luck's completion percentage, turnovers, or hits. But Arians' system encourages the quarterback to stand back and wait for vertical routes to develop, and Arians is used to calling plays for a quarterback who will scramble and gunsling and make things happen. He can tell his quarterback to get rid of it, but his system encourages tough, bullheaded quarterbacking. It's a two-sided coin.

 

Closely related to that, when we discussed this before, we both agreed that the drag routes underneath were slow developing, heavily dependent on the vertical routes to clear out space underneath. There aren't a lot of quick hitters, there aren't a lot of hot routes, there's almost nothing to the backs in the flats. Yeah, there's always a short option, but it's usually the third or fourth read. And that's behind an offensive line that struggles to give the quarterback time to get to his third or fourth read. 

 

Which brings me to my next point...

 

2) I never expected Arians to scrap his vertical offense and go with a WCO. I never advocated a WCO, as if that was the only way we could improve our offensive efficiency. What I wanted last season was for Arians to incorporate some simpler passing concepts that would take pressure off of the offensive line. I wanted him to include the backs in the passing game more deliberately. I wanted him to be more balanced in his playcalling (remember that awful stretch during the Chiefs game, when Luck put together that Painter-esque stretch in the second half?) 

 

I just thought we should adjust to take pressure off of the offensive line and the young quarterback. I never expected Arians to turn into Bill Walsh.

 

To the positive, like someone else said a few posts ago, 2012 was a baptism by fire for Andrew Luck. He digested a tough offense, carried the unit on his back, took a lot of abuse and still performed admirably. If we can make things a little easier on him, I think he'll really take off, and our scoring and red zone performance will improve dramatically. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

You make tons of good points, and you and I have gone over this in detail in the past. I'll say two things:

 

1) I don't place full blame on Arians for Luck's completion percentage, turnovers, or hits. But Arians' system encourages the quarterback to stand back and wait for vertical routes to develop, and Arians is used to calling plays for a quarterback who will scramble and gunsling and make things happen. He can tell his quarterback to get rid of it, but his system encourages tough, bullheaded quarterbacking. It's a two-sided coin.

 

Agreed

 

Closely related to that, when we discussed this before, we both agreed that the drag routes underneath were slow developing, heavily dependent on the vertical routes to clear out space underneath. There aren't a lot of quick hitters, there aren't a lot of hot routes, there's almost nothing to the backs in the flats. Yeah, there's always a short option, but it's usually the third or fourth read. And that's behind an offensive line that struggles to give the quarterback time to get to his third or fourth read. 

 

Agreed, but sometimes Luck never even attempted to make a second or third progression but wait out the first.  point #1.

 

Which brings me to my next point...

 

2) I never expected Arians to scrap his vertical offense and go with a WCO. I never advocated a WCO, as if that was the only way we could improve our offensive efficiency. What I wanted last season was for Arians to incorporate some simpler passing concepts that would take pressure off of the offensive line. I wanted him to include the backs in the passing game more deliberately. I wanted him to be more balanced in his playcalling (remember that awful stretch during the Chiefs game, when Luck put together that Painter-esque stretch in the second half?) 

 

Yes, Awful. I just wished for more running (O line was bad there too, though) and some two tight end sets.  But as far as running backs in the pass game, I knew it wasn't Arians philosophy, then or even now! 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000140629/article/bruce-arians-cardinals-backs-are-runners-protectors

 

I just thought we should adjust to take pressure off of the offensive line and the young quarterback. I never expected Arians to turn into Bill Walsh.

 

I did too, but we just didn't have healthy, decent players to execute  even in short yardage Red zone situations. And,  Arians is fairly stubborn on his playbook. Why many point fingers at him.

 

To the positive, like someone else said a few posts ago, 2012 was a baptism by fire for Andrew Luck. He digested a tough offense, carried the unit on his back, took a lot of abuse and still performed admirably. If we can make things a little easier on him, I think he'll really take off, and our scoring and red zone performance will improve dramatically. 

 

Worked for Peyton, (1 year of Arians).  I'm certain Luck improved his scope of skills dramatically because of it.  But it is time to get an efficient playbook the youngsters on the team can learn and execute well as Luck grows and is given more free reign. Hopefully Pep's hybrid becomes as effective and a touch more balanced than the Sean Payton / Drew Brees offense. Next to the Tom Moore / Peyton Manning offense, it is one of my favorite to watch.

[BOTT]

Worked for Peyton, (1 year of Arians). I'm certain Luck improved his scope of skills dramatically because of it. But it is time to get an efficient playbook the youngsters on the team can learn and execute well as Luck grows and is given more free reign. Hopefully Pep's hybrid becomes as effective and a touch more balanced than the Sean Payton / Drew Brees offense. Next to the Tom Moore / Peyton Manning offense, it is one of my favorite to watch.

It worked for Peyton because Tom Moore was the OC. Notice Marshall Faulk had 86 catches Peyton's rookie year.....Moore understands you have to protect a rookie QB.

[Superman]

Worked for Peyton, (1 year of Arians).  I'm certain Luck improved his scope of skills dramatically because of it.  But it is time to get an efficient playbook the youngsters on the team can learn and execute well as Luck grows and is given more free reign. Hopefully Pep's hybrid becomes as effective and a touch more balanced than the Sean Payton / Drew Brees offense. Next to the Tom Moore / Peyton Manning offense, it is one of my favorite to watch.

 

Good point all around, again.

 

Something else we did too little of is play action. Luck had the biggest increase in completion percentage in the league on play action passes, but we only used play action about 18% of the time, less than half as much as the Redskins, Niners or Seahawks. That's an example of identifying something that works, but simply not using it enough.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse. Arians isn't the coordinator anymore, so his offense isn't our problem anymore. But my point is simply that his offense had flaws. I think anyone would admit that.

 

In spite of those flaws, he did a great job standing in for Chuck Pagano, and we're lucky to have had him. We don't go 11-5 without him.

[rittdk01]

QB1: 64.3 completion %, 7.4 yards per throw, 250.5 yards a game, 12 INTS, 90.7 Passer rating

 

QB2: 54.1 completion %, 7 yards per throw, 273.4 yards/game, 18 INTS, 76.5 Passer rating

 

Guess which QB is Schaub? And after doing that, take a guess at who QB2 is as well.

  Did we not learn anything about stats from Luck last year?  According to stats the Colts won maybe five games in 2012.  Obviously Luck proved he has the intangibles Schaub does not.

[Mameluc]

Yep and now he has the dream team in Denver, but 0-1 so far. I guess we'll see how much of it was truly on the team and how much on him in the coming years with him now contending on what some call an elite squad.

i kinda disagree on the whole dream team...he has a dream WR coorp and maybe OL (i dont think they are set at C and LG)...but that defense is still 1-2 drafts from being truly elite. last year they didnt face much offensive powerhouses... they need Cb help, S help and LB help.  even a new pass rusher with the whole fax fiasco.

 

bassically, IMO, they need 1 player in each unit still.

[Mameluc]

It was earned....    The Indy Colt's best teams of the Dungy era were in 03, 04, and 05.     What did Manning do in those games?  

 

The O /  QB fell short in those playoff games VS NE, NE, and Pitt.      The 05 team was the best Indy has EVER seen and got one and done'd.

 

Now post 06 Peyton did CARRY this team in the playoffs.        But prior, Manning had IT ALL.

i do agree on some...but that 05 Defense also let the steelers controll the whole game. they didnt stop a rookie Roethisberger (sp?). they came out throwing and the team didnt even look like they could chagne the game plan.

 

Manning did take way too long to start making plays but dont forget mister licuored up kicker

[Superman]

i kinda disagree on the whole dream team...he has a dream WR coorp and maybe OL (i dont think they are set at C and LG)...but that defense is still 1-2 drafts from being truly elite. last year they didnt face much offensive powerhouses... they need Cb help, S help and LB help.  even a new pass rusher with the whole fax fiasco.

 

bassically, IMO, they need 1 player in each unit still.

 

They added corners (DRC and Jammer), and I think Shaun Phillips is as effective a pass rusher as Dumervil has been the last two years. They also added Terrance Knighton and drafted Sylvester Williams.

 

I wouldn't call them a dream team either, but I think their offseason was a net positive, and that's good for a team that won 13 games last year.

[Mameluc]

They added corners (DRC and Jammer), and I think Shaun Phillips is as effective a pass rusher as Dumervil has been the last two years. They also added Terrance Knighton and drafted Sylvester Williams.

 

I wouldn't call them a dream team either, but I think their offseason was a net positive, and that's good for a team that won 13 games last year.

I also liked their offseason vasquez, welker, big Knighton should help that shaky run D, shaun and DRC Jammer should help  also

 

but dont confuse DRC and Jammer with truly elite CB. im jsut not a fan of either of those and i think they are going to keep having troubles facing passing teams. just dont trust DRC.

 

also, IMO, their OLB, opposite of  Miller is a mess. Their MLB is kind small but made(Mays) plays so im kinda 50 50 with him.

Phillips will provide pass rush like you mentioned, but i think he is going to be their situational pass rusher OLB...who is the starter?

 

not really convinced that D will hold up. I think they will have problems getting to the QB on not obvious passing downs where Shaun and Miller will be both on the field and rushing the passer.

 

one more year, with Sylver Williams and Wolfe, probably a drafted DE and OLB i will like that front 7 much more...i just dont like that front 7 right now. Williams will take time, dont see him producing much this year

[ColtsBTM12]

He pulled that right out of his behind. The Texans have had a strong fanbase since they appeared in the league, and ask any one of us and you will see that we simply did not enjoy NFL football until we got another team. Not many flocked to the Cowboys, either.

I don't think I ''pulled that out of my behind''. When you can remember specific people making fun of the Texans because of how bad they were and now wearing JJ Swatt jerseys praising them it gets kind of annoying. As far as the Cowboys go there are tons of Cowboys fans in the Gulf Coast/Houston area. And like I said, I live just south of Houston, not in Houston where there is probably more fans that have always loved the Texans.

[ColtsBlueFL]

It worked for Peyton because Tom Moore was the OC. Notice Marshall Faulk had 86 catches Peyton's rookie year.....Moore understands you have to protect a rookie QB.

 

There's some truth there, but it was also that Faulk was the only dependable, proven, go-to pro bowl player on the team. (Much like Wayne was to Luck). The WR was Torrance Small, Jerome Pathon, and second year Marvin Harrison.  The next year, Marvin Harrison had 155 rec to Edge James 62.  No other real good WR (Pathon, T. Wilkins, EG Green and Isaac Jones).  And Arians had no Running Back near the quality of E. James or M. Faulk.  But even if he did, they would likely get no more than 30 all year, because his philosophy RB block (to protect a rookie QB) or run the ball. WR are paid to catch it.

[BOTT]

There's some truth there, but it was also that Faulk was the only dependable, proven, go-to pro bowl player on the team. (Much like Wayne was to Luck). The WR was Torrance Small, Jerome Pathon, and second year Marvin Harrison.  The next year, Marvin Harrison had 155 rec to Edge James 62.  No other real good WR (Pathon, T. Wilkins, EG Green and Isaac Jones).  And Arians had no Running Back near the quality of E. James or M. Faulk.  But even if he did, they would likely get no more than 30 all year, because his philosophy RB block (to protect a rookie QB) or run the ball. WR are paid to catch it.

It had more to the fact Moore often gave Manning mass protect only limited options.

And I hate Arians RB philosophy.

[SilentHill]

We definitely don't want to go by QBR. Schaub is ahead of 12 in that too.

 

How long has Schaub been in the league? Your comparing veteran stats to a rookie. You can't tell me you'd rather have Schaub at the helm than Luck.

[Superman]

There's some truth there, but it was also that Faulk was the only dependable, proven, go-to pro bowl player on the team. (Much like Wayne was to Luck). The WR was Torrance Small, Jerome Pathon, and second year Marvin Harrison.  The next year, Marvin Harrison had 155 rec to Edge James 62.  No other real good WR (Pathon, T. Wilkins, EG Green and Isaac Jones).  And Arians had no Running Back near the quality of E. James or M. Faulk.  But even if he did, they would likely get no more than 30 all year, because his philosophy RB block (to protect a rookie QB) or run the ball. WR are paid to catch it.

 

Arians wasn't the coordinator, nor was he calling plays. He was just the QB coach. It was Tom Moore's offense, which always included the backs in the passing game. Faulk's 86 catches is way on the high end, but that was a much bigger part of Moore's offense.

[Qwiz]

I don't think I ''pulled that out of my behind''. When you can remember specific people making fun of the Texans because of how bad they were and now wearing JJ Swatt jerseys praising them it gets kind of annoying. As far as the Cowboys go there are tons of Cowboys fans in the Gulf Coast/Houston area. And like I said, I live just south of Houston, not in Houston where there is probably more fans that have always loved the Texans.

I understand that. I don't remember a single bad team that hasn't had jokes cracked about them. I'm just saying it doesn't equate to a bad fanbase or bandwagoners either. As far as the Cowboys go, they have fans all across America, so naturally they will be around in the biggest city of their home state as well.