JIm Caldwell-Frank Vogel

[oldunclemark]

      So much time here was spent here talking about the failing of Jim Caldwell..

now a two-time Super Bowl coach....

 

.......Did Caldwell ever make a blunder as large as Frank Vogel of the Pacers did against Miami on Wednesday night...do you remembebr a blunder that large??

 

    Vogel figured out a way to take his best defenisve player out of the game on the biggest play in the last 10 years of his franchise........In fact, he did it twice in the same game...

It failed miserably both times...

 

Vogel is a highly intelligent coach..But he just overthought the situation and gave LeBron a frighteningly easy layup,,,,removing the only person who could have stopped it..  

NEWS FLASH: Frank! Dont guard the in bounds pass and double team the league MVP with 2 seconds left

 

....A mistake Jim (SuperBowl champ) Caldwell would have been blasted on this board for years.

[#12]

Sending Painter into the Jets game still tops it in my book. 

[oldunclemark]

Caldwell was under orders to pull the starters...

 

WE can all agree now that wasnt his decision

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Wrong Forum

[Dustin]

Dat timeout vs the Jets

[#12]

Dat timeout vs the Jets

Thanks.  I had forgotten about that. 

[Nobody]

Dat timeout vs the Jets

[MAC]

Well he might be blasted on here if this was a Pacers forum. You could talk about it in this little 32 page thread http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/12142-indiana-universityindiana-pacer-basketball/

 

Relating it to Caldwell is a bit of a stretch (not to mention that it's far from a given that Caldwell was known for his in game "blunders" in the first place. That's not why he was fired.

[GoColts8818]

You could (and many have so no need to do it again) that the colts would have been in the spot they were in in the playoffs without Caldwell I don't think you can say that about Vogel and the Pacers. Vogel made a mistake vs. being a mistake in terms of being the Head Coach in the first place like Caldwell was. There is a difference there.

[oldunclemark]

Understand what I'm saying.  I'm not asking anbody to pile on Frank V...

 

I'm looking for a comparable Caldwell boo-boo....or by anyone

 

Dustin!  That's a good answer..almost an exact paralell except that Jim Caldwell didnt pull Robert Mathis during the timeout

 

 

 

P.S.....Sure its a stretch,  MAC..but its May..

[oldunclemark]

You could (and many have so no need to do it again) that the colts would have been in the spot they were in in the playoffs without Caldwell I don't think you can say that about Vogel and the Pacers. Vogel made a mistake vs. being a mistake in terms of being the Head Coach in the first place like Caldwell was. There is a difference there.

GoC...

 

I think the Pacers would have beaten the Knicks with a lot of head coaches..now unemployed Mike Brown for one

but Baltimore doesnt reach the Super Bowl last year without Jimmy C, as OC, right?

There's no question about that.

[Thewholefnshow28]

It really was not that big of a blunder. Yes, Hibbert should have been out there, but the bottom line is PG24 messed up and over pursued LBJ and gave him the opening to drive to the basket. Spoelstra drew up a play for a jump shot. Lebron saw the opening that PG gave him and the rest is history.

Hibbert probably does not even have the lateral speed to get over to block that drive anyways given where Bosh lined up.

Comparing Frank who has revitalized this team from the dreaded days of Jim O'Brien and got us to the ECF to Jim Caldwell who rode the coattails of Peyton is laughable.

[oldunclemark]

It really was not that big of a blunder. Yes, Hibbert should have been out there, but the bottom line is PG24 messed up and over pursued LBJ and gave him the opening to drive to the basket. Spoelstra drew up a play for a jump shot. Lebron saw the opening that PG gave him and the rest is history.

Hibbert probably does not even have the lateral speed to get over to block that drive anyways given where Bosh lined up.

Comparing Frank who has revitalized this team from the dreaded days of Jim O'Brien and got us to the ECF to Jim Caldwell who rode the coattails of Peyton is laughable.

 

 

Show.it was an apocalyptic blunder.

 

Frank V. somehow talked himself into removing his best defender....Hibbert didnt have to guard ANYONE with 2.2 left...Just guard the basket. Again....dont guard in in boudns pass...with 2.2 left...a one-man zone with Hibert and four defenders

 

 

Caldwell led his team to the Super Bowl....its hard to claim he had nothing to do with it..

Then he caoched Baltimore offense to the Super Bowl....

 

Ressurection is not better than the mountaintop. Not even close

[Thewholefnshow28]

Show.it was an apocalyptic blunder.

 

Frank V. somehow talked himself into removing his best defender....Hibbert didnt have to guard ANYONE with 2.2 left...Just guard the basket. Again....dont guard in in boudns pass...with 2.2 left...a one-man zone with Hibert and four defenders

 

 

Caldwell led his team to the Super Bowl....its hard to claim he had nothing to do with it..

Then he caoched Baltimore offense to the Super Bowl....

 

Ressurection is not better than the mountaintop. Not even close

 

You are not sitting Hibbert under the basket.  If you put Hibbert in you are taking Hansbrough out and that leaves Hibbert guarding Bosh.  Bosh set a screen for Ray and Hansbrough switched with Young and that is why Young was under the basket.  So if they switch that leave Hibbert chasing Ray to the corner and Young still with Bosh.  If they do not switch then Young has to fight through that screen to go with Allen.

 

PG would have still hesitated with the screening action for Allen and still given the wide open lane for LBJ to drive.  Your hope is that Hibbert did not switch and that he would have got over in time to contest one of the best finishers at the rim.  

 

Acting like this was the worst blunder ever is making a mountain out of a mole hill. They were playing the percentage that the Heat drew up a play to get a jumper, which Spoelstra admitted that he drew up, and PG did not execute the defensive strategy..

 

Now I can see the argument about guarding the inbounder because LBJ should have just been double teamed from the beginning.  Live with Allen or Bosh beating you, but do not let LBJ beat you. I think that is the mistake that Vogel made not playing Hibbert.

[BrentMc11]

Well he might be blasted on here if this was a Pacers forum. You could talk about it in this little 32 page thread http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/12142-indiana-universityindiana-pacer-basketball/

 

Relating it to Caldwell is a bit of a stretch (not to mention that it's far from a given that Caldwell was known for his in game "blunders" in the first place. That's not why he was fired.

Pages 31 and 32 to be precise and I was one of them.

 

I like Vogel.....this team plays hard.

 

Peyton Manning goes down.....and we had an excuse to lose.  Caldwell had virtually the same players other than Manning...we went 2-14...just sayin.

[HungarianColtsFan]

With all the respect to Jim, but my take on the thing is, that he won 2 SBs as OC, neither Colts nor Ravens were set up by him. I always kept saying here, that he is a good OC, but as a HC he was a total meltdown. In his first 2 years as HC Manning took on his back the whole team and pulled them to PO...when Manning was gone Caldwell became a total meltdown. Not to mention that many here contribute to him the SB -loss against the Saints

 

He may have been a puppet here, still I think being HC isn't his cup of tee.

[Kyle]

he took him out at key points at the end of a few games in the series vs the knicks too!!!  very frustrating.  When the 2 centers for the knicks fouled out he took Hibbert out...his strategy was smalls vs smalls!?!?!?!  I dont get it.  Why would u take out ur best player who is 7'2 when the biggest guy the other team had out there was Carmelo.  Just feed it to Hibbert under the basket.  He almost blew a few games doing that vs the Knicks, and now did blow a game doing it vs the Heat.  I was puzzled to say the least

[Kyle]

supposedly his reasoning was he didnt want to make Hibbert guard Bosh on the outside jumper...

 

Choice A: Lebron open under the basket

Choice B: Bosh open outside

 

uhhh........ i think Bosh from the outside is the shot u want them to take.  

[MAC]

Understand what I'm saying.  I'm not asking anbody to pile on Frank V...

 

I'm looking for a comparable Caldwell boo-boo....or by anyone

 

Dustin!  That's a good answer..almost an exact paralell except that Jim Caldwell didnt pull Robert Mathis during the timeout

 

 

 

P.S.....Sure its a stretch,  MAC..but its May..

:: True enough.

 

Just think, at this time next year the draft will have just wrapped up.

[MAC]

With all the respect to Jim, but my take on the thing is, that he won 2 SBs as OC, neither Colts nor Ravens were set up by him. I always kept saying here, that he is a good OC, but as a HC he was a total meltdown. In his first 2 years as HC Manning took on his back the whole team and pulled them to PO...when Manning was gone Caldwell became a total meltdown. Not to mention that many here contribute to him the SB -loss against the Saints

 

He may have been a puppet here, still I think being HC isn't his cup of tee.

And how good a head coach was Tony Dungy in 1996/7 when he first made head coach?

 

Caldwell walked into a situation where he had no chance to leave his mark in a positive way. In a sense, the only place to go was down. Yet he took the team to the Super Bowl in his first year. I'm as big a Manning fan as anyone, but people pretend that nobody else matters. It's a team game, and Caldwell was a competent manager of that team. Dungy was a coach for 13 years and only made it to one SB himself. Is Dungy a better coach because he happened to win that game? The Bears didn't present a fraction of the matchup problems that the Saints did. And Dungy had failed to get out of the first round the prior two years despite having younger and healthier versions of the largely the same team.

 

The fact is that we have little evidence that Caldwell is a poor coach, and it's pretty obvious that he has a LOT going for him. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him succeed if given another head coaching job - preferably with a younger team that he can mold.

[weaver84]

Dat timeout vs the Jets

He did the same thing against the Jags earlier that season. Personally, I think running the ball 3 consecutive times on the final drive of the first half of the super bowl was up there. Should have went for the kill shot.

[BIGugly]

Jim Caldwell stunk up the place as a head coach.  He is an outstanding OC.   We all have our level of compatence.  His is OC..... 

[HungarianColtsFan]

And how good a head coach was Tony Dungy in 1996/7 when he first made head coach?

 

Caldwell walked into a situation where he had no chance to leave his mark in a positive way. In a sense, the only place to go was down. Yet he took the team to the Super Bowl in his first year. I'm as big a Manning fan as anyone, but people pretend that nobody else matters. It's a team game, and Caldwell was a competent manager of that team. Dungy was a coach for 13 years and only made it to one SB himself. Is Dungy a better coach because he happened to win that game? The Bears didn't present a fraction of the matchup problems that the Saints did. And Dungy had failed to get out of the first round the prior two years despite having younger and healthier versions of the largely the same team.

 

The fact is that we have little evidence that Caldwell is a poor coach, and it's pretty obvious that he has a LOT going for him. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him succeed if given another head coaching job - preferably with a younger team that he can mold.

 

I think we should compare Pagano and Caldwell. I think Pagano did more as HC so far than Caldwell (no I'm not considering Ws and Ls). Pagano built up a well coached team out of a big bunch of players those mostly wouldn't be starters at most of teams. Caldwell inherited a complete team, that "only" must have been operated, and when crach came he couldn't handle the situation (I'm not thinking of loosing Manning for a season, other key players were injured as well).

 

Anyway You are right, we have only poor evidence for Caldwell being lousy HC. Only time would tell if he got an other chance to be a HC at a team.

[GoColts8818]

GoC...

 

I think the Pacers would have beaten the Knicks with a lot of head coaches..now unemployed Mike Brown for one

but Baltimore doesnt reach the Super Bowl last year without Jimmy C, as OC, right?

There's no question about that.

The Colts would have won the Super Bowl in 2006 with a lot of coaches it doesn't mean Tony Dungy wasn't a very good coach and it doesn't mean Dungy didn't have a major hand in the years before that to set them up for that, which is where coaches really show if they are good or not.  You can say the same about Vogel.  When the team fired Jim O'Brien they were more or less just spinning their wheels and stuck and their young guys like Hibbert were not developing.  Vogel came in and right away got that team to get hot and make the playoffs.  The next year you saw Hibbert take a step up and become a max player and an all-star and live up to his talent level more importantly you saw the team have the third best record in the East and win a playoff series.  This year we have now seen George take a major step forward and become an all-star as well as seeing the team win the Division and win two playoff series and be in the Eastern Conference Finals for the first time in nearly a decade.  Don't under sell Vogel's role in that because when a lot of these players were here for O'Brien these kids weren't even coming close to living up to their talent level. 

 

As for Jim Caldwell I said it could be argued and has been argued meaning people have made the argument.  I have always taken the side that Jim Caldwell was not a bump on the long that some think he was either.  With that said I don't think he was the right man for the job as Head Coach here in retrospect.  Yes he got them to a Super Bowl but he was also stepping into a ready made job that he just needed to maintain and as time went on he was struggling to do that.  The record shows that, 14-2, 10-6, and 2-14. 

 

As for what Caldwell did with the Ravens 1, he's not the Head Coach there I honestly do think OC is a good role for him right now.  2, that has nothing to do with my point about Jim Caldwell and being the Colts Head Coach.

 

Again, Vogel made a mistake it happens.  He was far from the only person on the Pacers roster to do that last night.  George made one with that defense he played.  Also what's gotten lost in all of this was the fact the Pacers had the lead in regulation with under a minute to go and plenty of time on the shot clock and Stephenson launched a three when he should have just run the shot clock down.  Roy didn't bock out the Birdman on the following position that let the Heat tie the game and get it to OT in the first place.  George Hill had I don't know how many turnovers last night.  The Pacers looked exactly like what they were a young team on the stage for the first time.  They will learn from these mistakes and get better. 

 

As for Caldwell him being the Colts Head Coach in the first place was a mistake and again the end result under him backed that up the Super Bowl not withstanding.  I don't think the Pacers made a mistake with Frank Vogel in fact while Jim Caldwell's record got worse from year to year Vogel's has gotten better from year to year.  So yes Frank Vogel made a mistake last night, and yes he should be taken to task over it but at the end of the day it's not enough to say him as the Pacers Coach was a mistake or even close to being on the level of a mistake Jim Caldwell was as the Colts Head Coach. 

[Warhorse]

Thread moved to NFL General.

[amfootball]

I have been mystified about the lack of love for Caldwell up here. I am pretty sure it was he, not Dungy, that had the Colts on the verge of a 16-0 regular season until mgmg pulled the plug. And then the following season with a siege of injuries he got the Colts to 10-6 and a divisional title.

 

I was not surprised to see him succeed in Baltimore. Guy knows his football and knows how to comm to his players. It will be interesting to see how far he can take Flacco who looked fantastic under him as his OC...

[BrentMc11]

Where is my buddy FireJimCaldwell when we need him?  

[oldunclemark]

You are not sitting Hibbert under the basket.  If you put Hibbert in you are taking Hansbrough out and that leaves Hibbert guarding Bosh.  Bosh set a screen for Ray and Hansbrough switched with Young and that is why Young was under the basket.  So if they switch that leave Hibbert chasing Ray to the corner and Young still with Bosh.  If they do not switch then Young has to fight through that screen to go with Allen.

 

PG would have still hesitated with the screening action for Allen and still given the wide open lane for LBJ to drive.  Your hope is that Hibbert did not switch and that he would have got over in time to contest one of the best finishers at the rim.  

 

Acting like this was the worst blunder ever is making a mountain out of a mole hill. They were playing the percentage that the Heat drew up a play to get a jumper, which Spoelstra admitted that he drew up, and PG did not execute the defensive strategy..

 

Now I can see the argument about guarding the inbounder because LBJ should have just been double teamed from the beginning.  Live with Allen or Bosh beating you, but do not let LBJ beat you. I think that is the mistake that Vogel made not playing Hibbert.

WE do need FJC, Brent.......He'll get on this...I bet you.

 

SHOW.....You're overthinking it like Coach Frank did.

Who said you have to take Hansborough out to put Hibbert in.

There's only 2.2 left.  There's only time for one pass

 

You simply man up the four players who are in bounds...and have Roy Hibbert guard the lane.

Switch everything.   except Hibbert.....He's guarding the basket....and Miami has to shoot a '3'

He overcoached and I think he knows it..

Its that simple and its high school defense.

 

The Miami player inbounding the ball....Shane Battier...was 0-for-6...he would have no chance of taking a return pass and driving  to the bakset and shooting over 7-foot-2 Hibbert and he'd have to shoot a hurry=up '3' ...anybody shootimng 3 has a less than 50-50 shot at making it.  You'd have made LeBron shoot a contested '3'  

 

Once Miami has no more time outs..you simply dont cover the inbounds passer.. Obviously.

 

Coach Frank made a monumental blunder taking the best rim defender inthe league out in the biggest moment of the season.

It was similar to Coach Jim C. calling that time out in the 2011 playoff game against the Jets to give them more tiem to beat us.

Very similar.

[oldunclemark]

Jim Caldwell stunk up the place as a head coach.  He is an outstanding OC.   We all have our level of compatence.  His is OC..... 

Very hard arguement to make that a guy is a great assistant but a terrible head coach.

 

Its partially the same job.

[oldunclemark]

: : True enough.

 

Just think, at this time next year the draft will have just wrapped up.

 

That's one reason to like that draft day change....

 

There's a dead air period for the NFL every late May-June that wont exist anymore.

 

 

Even the NFL-Net is hurting for something to talk about

[House]

GoC...

I think the Pacers would have beaten the Knicks with a lot of head coaches..now unemployed Mike Brown for one

but Baltimore doesnt reach the Super Bowl last year without Jimmy C, as OC, right?

There's no question about that.

Didn't Cleveland hire Mike Brown back?

[oldunclemark]

True,  MAC....

 

I'm slipping up on my Cleveand news...

 

Next they'll be getting Lebron back...

[Superman]

Definitely a mistake by Vogel, and he admitted as much. I get the logic behind his decision, but you just shouldn't take your best rim defender out of the game when you're up by one point with 2.2 seconds remaining. Guarding the three ball isn't a priority in that situation, guarding the rim is. 

 

Still, that's a situational mistake that he hopefully won't make again. I, too, think he over thought the situation. The Heat are very good at getting and making open jumpshots, and that analytics bear that out. So you don't want to ignore the threat of a jumper, even a deep one. But you can defend the perimeter with Hibbert on the floor; you have all year. Pulling him was silly, and I think Vogel knows it and will adjust accordingly moving forward.

 

It's hard to compare that kind of mistake to anything that happens in the NFL. There are different packages and substitutions and whatnot in football, especially late in the game. The best comparison I can think of is Caldwell's poor use of timeouts, which hurt us against the Jets. But that's still way different, and it had little to do with our defense being unable to defend on the ensuing play. 

 

What I like about Vogel's response is that he accepted responsibility, and acknowledged that he probably would keep Hibbert on the floor if he could do it again. Caldwell doubled down on the timeout decision -- and so did Polian -- leaving me to assume that he doesn't believe it was a bad call. And that's just strange.

[House]

True, MAC....

I'm slipping up on my Cleveand news...

Next they'll be getting Lebron back...

Did you mean me lol?

[oldunclemark]

Definitely a mistake by Vogel, and he admitted as much. I get the logic behind his decision, but you just shouldn't take your best rim defender out of the game when you're up by one point with 2.2 seconds remaining. Guarding the three ball isn't a priority in that situation, guarding the rim is. 

 

Still, that's a situational mistake that he hopefully won't make again. I, too, think he over thought the situation. The Heat are very good at getting and making open jumpshots, and that analytics bear that out. So you don't want to ignore the threat of a jumper, even a deep one. But you can defend the perimeter with Hibbert on the floor; you have all year. Pulling him was silly, and I think Vogel knows it and will adjust accordingly moving forward.

 

It's hard to compare that kind of mistake to anything that happens in the NFL. There are different packages and substitutions and whatnot in football, especially late in the game. The best comparison I can think of is Caldwell's poor use of timeouts, which hurt us against the Jets. But that's still way different, and it had little to do with our defense being unable to defend on the ensuing play. 

 

What I like about Vogel's response is that he accepted responsibility, and acknowledged that he probably would keep Hibbert on the floor if he could do it again. Caldwell doubled down on the timeout decision -- and so did Polian -- leaving me to assume that he doesn't believe it was a bad call. And that's just strange.

 

 

Totally agree...Vogel is a good man (as is Caldwell) and a good coach...

 

and Vogel did admit immediately that he would not do that again.  Mosdt NFL coaches never admit they are wrong about anything....Vogel's players obviusly like him...and

 

Obviously, I'm pulling for the Pacers to upset Miami..I think Indiana is the better team

[Jules]

Look on the bright side. The Pacers learned from game 1 and WON TONIGHT!!!!!!!!

 

    :bounce:     

[John Dee]

Why is matching up "small on small" a  sin.?

 

I am a Pacer fan and I have NO ISSUE with V's move.

 

Pacers are the BETTER TEAM.............         HOLLA

[Jules]

Before the series I was kinda iffy over playing the Heat so I didn't want to say much either.

 

Now this is kinda how I am starting to view the Heat:

 

[GoColts8818]

You saw the difference between Vogel and Caldwell tonight.  Vogel learned from his mistake in game one and adjusted and what happened?  George played MUCH better defense along with the presence of Hibbert took James out of his zone that lead to that last turnover.  That's what good coaches do they might make mistakes but they learn from them and adjust.  That's something Caldwell didn't do very well he would make the same mistake over and over.  Rather it be not having his team ready for an on-side kick or timeouts (everyone forgets earlier in the year before the Jets playoff game he did that strange time out thing against the Jags and got burned in that game too). 

 

Pacer fans have to be thrilled the Pacers have been the better team in two straight games on the road and should be up 2-0 coming home.  If the Pacers take care of the Home Court they are going to the finals.  Also Vogel is doing all this with their best player in Granger being out for the year.  What happened to Caldwell when he lost his best player?  Vogel and Caldwell couldn't be more polar opposites if they tried other than that both keep their cool very well. 

[oldunclemark]

Why is matching up "small on small" a  sin.?

 

I am a Pacer fan and I have NO ISSUE with V's move.

 

Pacers are the BETTER TEAM.............         HOLLA

John ...

You dont want to match up with Maimi...you want to overmatch them.

 

Again..there was no need to guard in inbounds pass from Shane Battier with 2.2 second sleft. if you lead by one.

Guard the 4 players on the floor...have Hibbert guard the basket and have everybody switch on screens BUT Hibbert.

 

That leaves Maimi with nothing but a contested '3'...

I'm not a basketball genius and I figured that out before the play..

LeBron cannot score a layup in 2.2 seconds if George is guarding him and Hibbert is in the lane

..and Shane Battier isnt going to pass the ball in..get it back and sink a 20-foot   '3' when he was 0-for-4 on the night..

 

But please. Never take Hibbert out at the end of a close game. He is a dominant defensive player.

It would be the equivalent of taking Andrew Luck out on 4th and 1 in OT and using the 'Wildcat' with Vic Ballard because you wanted to surprise the other team with the run.. Just because talking heads on TV  can 'make an arguement' for pulling Hibbert doesnt make it any less stupid.

 

But its over with and I'm happy with 1-1 coming back to Indy

 

Indiana matches up really well with Miami.

LeBron's got to score 35-40 for Miami to win.