Bruce Arians: Don't rank Andrew Luck over Big Ben

[Mouthfire]

I don't know about this whole subject.  If all Big Ben had was Super Bowl rings then I would be more willing to argue about Luck maybe being better than him or whatever because rings alone reflect a team accomplishment not a single players.  With that said, Big Ben has more than that.  He's proven to be a good QB in this league.  I don't put Big Ben in the elite QBs in the NFL right now just because I think Manning, Brady, Brees, and probably Rodgers are going to go down as some of the better QBs of all-time.  I do put Big Ben in the list as one of the better QBs of his era though and he would be at the top of the list of QBs right behind the elite ones probably right behind Eli IMO.  You are right Luck has NOT caught him yet.  That's what I think Arians was saying more or less.  It doesn't mean Luck doesn't have the chance to catch him one day.  I think sometimes we lose sight of that because we look at everything we think Luck can do and expect him to do and try to rank him on that.  Arians is ranking them based on what they have done not on what Luck COULD do. 

 

Like I said earlier in the thread though there isn't a QB in the league I would trade Andrew Luck for straight up because of his age and the potential he has to be great.  With that said I don't get the impression that was what Arians was being asked though. 

 

This is completely true.  It's widely accepted that Roethlisberger is in the group right after the elite QBs in this league.  Luck isn't there yet.  He has a chance to be better, waaaay better than Ben in the future, but he just isn't there yet.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

He has a chance to be better, waaaay better than Ben in the future, but he just isn't there yet.

 

Apart from this Top 100 Players stuff and completely anecdotal but I think Luck is right now a better QB than Rapelisburger is. I think he has a better arm, better legs, better brain, better awareness etc, etc. Just an all around better skill set.

 

I think Luck was a better QB in his junior and senior years in College than Rape has been or ever will be. The Steelers running game and defense were the reasons the Steelers won these Super Bowls with him. He wasnt bad. He was actually pretty good.

 

Nevertheless I don't think he is anywhere near the QB that Luck is.

[rittdk01]

Big Ben got beaten up in Arians offense so much that he's on the downswing prematurely. 

[ColtsFanMikeC]

There is a video as well as an article here are the main excerpt's, 

When he was told Luck likely will be ranked ahead of Big Ben he said, 

"That surprises me." "Andrew belongs on the list, but he's not at that stage yet. He's got to put a couple rings on his finger and a bunch more wins."

Full article here:http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000202195/article/bruce-arians-dont-rank-andrew-luck-over-big-ben   

 

Some here still hold a grudge against Arians, for numerous reasons. I am sure this will only fuel that. While I believe he was simply answering honestly, but he is a HC now and could have easily deflected this topic had he chosen. Appears to me he went out of his way to make this argument.

What do you guys think? A couple more rings seems like a stretch to me.

If the list is the top 100 players of 2013 -- then yes, Luck should be higher than Roethlisberger.  No way is he rated higher than Roethlisberger on the all-time list (at this point, give him a few years), but IMO Luck had a better 2013 season than Big Ben.  Pretty sure he led his team to the playoffs and Big Ben and the Steelers didn't make it there.

[Poster X]

And what do you base that on? Personal experience, or what you see on TV, or what you read in the press or read on the internet?

 

 

Court papers. The guy has been accused twice... and the only reason he got off is because the women he was with were more shady than he was. If there wasn't something to the allegations he wouldn't have settled out of court either. The man will henceforth be known more as a two time rapist as opposed to a champion.

[Jules]

I have no real problems with what he said and one of the things I liked most from Arians as a HC here was he told it like it was. After we got blown out by the Jets I remember him saying about Luck after the game, "Rookie.....".

 

After we beat up on the Jags he said after the game something like, "Great win, but not against a very good team. We will have to play better then that against NE next weekend and with less penalities. And we sure the heck are not going there to lose either."

 

I prefer Arians still as a head coach then as just an OC. As the offseason goes on I hope more and more he can shock the world with the Cardinals.

 

I felt last season we had TWO great leaders at coach; Pagano and Arians. Pagano also is a motivator and inspires his guys.

 

 

And lets face it, while I do think the Steelers SB win over the Seahawks is questionable he is not saying anything new. We all know deep down that history remembers the rings, the big postseason moments MORE then regular season success. And there is a reason why at times many do not want to draw the Steelers in the playoffs even if they do not look too formidable. They are often a tough gritty opponent and Ben often shows us playoff intangibles even if he is not most peoples first choice at QB.

 

Luck has a ways to go but he is on his way.......I always thought Arians thought the world of Luck but he knows there is a lot left to prove.

[bap1331]

The Top 100 isn't based on their experience or Super Bowls. Its based on their performance of this past year. Technically Andrew Luck did go farther then Big Ben so he is going to be higher.

 

Plus, its not the people or media that votes, that is separate. These are votes by the NFL players themselves...so that means a lot.

[braveheartcolt]

Court papers. The guy has been accused twice... and the only reason he got off is because the women he was with were more shady than he was. If there wasn't something to the allegations he wouldn't have settled out of court either. The man will henceforth be known more as a two time rapist as opposed to a champion.

I'm so glad you cleared that up. Andrew has not raped anyone three times in his lifetime, so your argument falls down a little. Just a little.

Or maybe it's because I'm an out of towner. Does being found not guilty of a crime in America actually mean you are guilty? We have it the other way around in GB.

[BOTT]

Court papers. The guy has been accused twice... and the only reason he got off is because the women he was with were more shady than he was. If there wasn't something to the allegations he wouldn't have settled out of court either. The man will henceforth be known more as a two time rapist as opposed to a champion.

Two time rapist? He wasn't even charged in the Georgia case.

[Boozeking25]

Not quite sure what outside legal situations have to do with trying to compare what two QBs do on the field.

[Poster X]

I'm so glad you cleared that up. Andrew has not raped anyone three times in his lifetime, so your argument falls down a little. Just a little.

Or maybe it's because I'm an out of towner. Does being found not guilty of a crime in America actually mean you are guilty? We have it the other way around in GB.

He wasn't found innocent at anytime. In fact he handled the first case out of court... and the second case was dropped. It turns out there were questionable things going on with everyone including the officer who took the initial report (he was later fired). Ben was suspended by the league for his actions as a result. It should have been more than four games, and I'm not sure a full season was enough. That is how it ties into his on field play.

[Gnutella0]

If Big Ben is so fabulous as a NFL field general, why in the Hades did he lose to Aaron Rogers & the Green Bay Packers in Super Bowl XLV Bruce? Care to field that one? 

 

I love how SB loses rarely come up for seasoned veterans.   

 

A few reasons why:

 

 

1. The Packers had arguably the best secondary in the NFL that season, and they were matched up against a WR corps that included one who was past his prime (Hines Ward), a raw second-year project (Mike Wallace) and two rookies (Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders).

 

2. William Gay was the other starting CB for the Steelers across from Ike Taylor, and he's proven to be a career nickel back at best. All Aaron Rodgers had to do was throw to the WR closest to Gay to keep the offense moving. Troy Polamalu's hip pointer didn't help matters either.

 

3. Three turnovers by the Steelers, including two that were directly the result of poor blocking. It's no coincidence that the offense wasn't as crisp after Maurkice Pouncey was lost to injury in the AFC Championship Game.

 

 

So that's why the Steelers lost Super Bowl XLV: A combination of unfavorable matchups, turnovers and bad luck, plus an opponent that got healthy and hot at the right time.

 

 

And if we're going to dock QBs for losing the Super Bowl, then I guess that should apply to Peyton Manning too, especially since Tracy Porter said he knew exactly where Manning was going with the ball during the defining play of Super Bowl XLIV. (On that note, gee, it looks like even Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers needed help from their defenses in the Super Bowl.)

[Gnutella0]

He's not talking from a fan's perspective. He doesn't rank Luck on potential...he ranks him on accomplishments. And using that standard, he is definitely correct. However, he'd be lying through his teeth if he said Andrew doesnt have a greater upside than Rapelisburger ever had. Or that Andrew's football I.Q. isn't overwhelmingly higher. The fact is they (Pittsburgh) had to dumb down the playbook for Ben. The exact opposite happened with Andrew.

 

Upside, like when Hall-of-Fame head coach Bill Parcells referred to Roethlisberger as the best QB prospect since Dan Marino?

 

As for "dumbing down" the playbook, please provide a link to support that claim.

[John Dee]

The "great" BA also is quoted as saying Luck was "a YEAR ahead of Manning as far as grasping he NO HUDDLE concept" ..

 

Go figure...  ?

 

This man is simply covering bases....        Nothing more, nothing less....     In a few months Carson Palmer will be the most "gifted" thrower he has ever coached....   

 

 

Blah..........

hey hey people calm down!! He said that right now Andrew shouldn't be rated higher than Big Ben and I strongly support him. We are talking of a vet with 2 rings and a Super Bowl winning drive. Andrew just has 11 wins, Arians never said something like "Andrew will never be better than big ben, or andrew will never win 2 rings" he is just saying that right NOW andre can't be rated higher and again i totally support that statement. I believe luck will be better QB in the future, but still he has a lot to prove.

[John Dee]

Anyone who thinks Ben is a "great" QB is insane.    Ben is a "great" QB at EXTENDING the play...   

 

That is it...............     He cannot run a play to save his live... but let he "PLAY" break down...   and IT IS ON> ..... 

 

 

How this can be debated is comical....        But please try....   I'm sure some will...

[NewEra]

Rings and Superbowls don't count in this discussion, but I'd still put Big Ben slightly ahead of Luck

So would I. If we are talking about a food eating contest. Or as crash dummy contest. Maybe even as a spokesmen for how to not conduct yourself in bars. Man, I don't think Luck is some angel, but I'm really really glad things worked out the way they did and we got him. We don't have to worry about him pulling any of that crap.

[Gnutella0]

Bruce Arians should stop lying to himself & others. The Steelers defense is what made them (and Ben) so good over the years.

We all got to see it this year. When the defense isn't healthy and at is best, the Steelers are just an average team. I've NEVER seen a game when Big Ben out dueled another QB except the Steelers vs Giants game in his rookie year. Most games the defense scored points or created good field position for Ben. In their SB loss it became clear that Big Ben isn't fit for shootouts and relies heavily on that Defense. Packers defense had him looking like a rookie QB fresh off the bench

And stop with the Ring comparison!!! It's a team effort to WIN a SB. Cause Peyton definitely didn't win that SB vs CHI for us. Defense and our run game that both suddenly came alive won the game for us

 

Well what about when Roethlisberger isn't healthy and at his best? I suppose that doesn't matter? He had a six-week injury to his throwing shoulder and an adjacent rib at the midpoint of last season, and he was basically forced back into the lineup after three weeks because the Steelers were down to their third-string QB who didn't even need an injury for his arm to be screwed up. Gee, no wonder he didn't play as well down the stretch. It didn't help that the running game went nowhere all season, or that the offensive line waited until late in the season to suffer their perennial rash of injuries. At that point all defenses had to do was crowd the line and take away all the short routes, because the offensive line wasn't going to hold up long enough for deeper routes to develop, and Roethlisberger wasn't going to get the ball more than 10 yards downfield reliably. (Neither was Charlie Batch.)

 

Yeah, let's all just ignore the fact that he, in his first nine games of the season, had a TD/INT ratio of 17/4, completed 70%+ of his passes in five of those nine games, had a passer rating of 100.0, and had the highest third-down passer rating in the NFL while leading the Steelers to a 6-3 record, and he got virtually no help from his running game in the process -- unless you're impressed by a running game that ranked 26th in yards, 28th in YPC and scored eight TDs on the ground. (Michael Turner alone had more TD runs, and everybody said he had a disappointing season.) Let's just pretend that Roethlisberger never did any of that because it doesn't fit well in our delicate football worldview.

 

As for never seeing Roethlisberger outduel another QB, apparently you missed the game against the Packers in 2009 when he had to throw for 503 yards just to help the Steelers win by one point because his defense and special teams both s__t the bed. In the process, he became only the 10th QB in NFL history to throw for 500+ yards in a game, and only the third QB in NFL history to do so without committing a turnover. (The other two were Hall-of-Famers Norm Van Brocklin and Y.A. Tittle.) You must have also missed the game against the Patriots in 2011 when he played "keep the ball away from Tom Brady" with a ball-control short passing attack, attempting 50 passes for 365 yards and leading five scoring drives that game. So much for "if he has to throw more than x number of times per game..."

[Gnutella0]

I was just about to say 3/4 of this lol. and to prove a point on your comment about their defense.... that superbowl against AZ would have been Az superbowl championship if it was not for (i think Foote's INT, not sure on the player) that INT returned for 100 yards for a TD right before half time. that was the turning point of the game. after that, the game changed.

 

and you are correct about the game against GB. Rodgers and company had that defense looking like a joke, and once that happened the packers defense had rothlisberger looking like nothing more then a varsity QB in HS. The steelers are not a good team unless that defense is 100% healthy.

 

Yeah, that Super Bowl, when the Steelers got a whopping 58 yards and 2.2 YPC from their running game, trotted out what is widely considered to be the worst offensive line in Super Bowl history with all three starting interior linemen being out of the NFL within three years (none of them due to old age), and had an average starting field position at their own 23-yard line. Yet, despite all that, Roethlisberger still managed to complete 70% of his passes for 8.5 YPA and lead four scoring drives, none shorter than 69 yards.

 

By the way, the same defense that provided a TD ought to thank Roethlisberger for preventing them from setting a record for the biggest blown lead in Super Bowl history. If Roethlisberger didn't lead a TD drive late in the game, then the Steelers would not have won the Super Bowl regardless of the defense's second-quarter heroics. For that matter, somebody had to make Santonio Holmes look like a hero too. Holmes don't have a homing device in his hands. Somebody had to throw that ball perfectly in order for him to show off his acrobatics.

 

The Saints defense scored the game-clinching TD in Super Bowl XLIV, and the Packers defense scored a TD to help the Packers win Super Bowl XLV by only six. Looks like Roethlisberger's not the only one who benefits from a great defense.

[Gnutella0]

He wasn't found innocent at anytime. In fact he handled the first case out of court... and the second case was dropped. It turns out there were questionable things going on with everyone including the officer who took the initial report (he was later fired). Ben was suspended by the league for his actions as a result. It should have been more than four games, and I'm not sure a full season was enough. That is how it ties into his on field play.

 

Innocence doesn't have to be proven; guilt does. People are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[Gnutella0]

Anyone who thinks Ben is a "great" QB is insane.    Ben is a "great" QB at EXTENDING the play...   

 

That is it...............     He cannot run a play to save his live... but let he "PLAY" break down...   and IT IS ON> ..... 

 

 

How this can be debated is comical....        But please try....   I'm sure some will...

 

Would you care to debate with Greg Cosell?

 

 

"In January 2009, Roethlisberger was not very good before the snap. One of the reasons he moved as often as he did was his inconsistency in recognizing blitz concepts at the line of scrimmage. He was still processing information, trying to decipher the defense during his drop into the pocket. You cannot be controlled, decisive and precise as a quarterback playing that way. It was the singular reason Roethlisberger had such a strong tendency to play sandlot football. ... Gradually over time, Roethlisberger has gotten better and better. He’s more aware before the snap of the ball, and he’s more disciplined in the pocket. While he still has the ability to impress with his idiosyncratic combination of physicality and movement, his game is now less arbitrary, less random, more structured, and therefore more consistent. This is rarely acknowledged, however, because there has been no clear quantifiable means by which to measure the progress."

 

"One part of Roethlisberger’s improvement for which he does not get enough credit is his ability to make throws consistently from the pocket. It sounds strange to say that, because that’s the essence of NFL quarterbacking: delivering from the pocket. Yet the continued emphasis on his distinctive style has led many to disregard his pocket passing. I charted all 60 of Roethlisberger’s pass plays of 20 yards or more in 2011. Only five of them came outside the pocket. Time and again, Roethlisberger exhibited one of the most essential attributes necessary to play at a consistently high level: the ability to stand in the pocket in the face of pressure and deliver the ball with accuracy. That’s an element of his play that often gets overlooked. It shouldn’t."

 

"In his early years, Roethlisberger was an instinctive, intuitive player who was special at times, but who had sandlot tendencies that limited his consistency. Now, after eight years as the Steelers’ starter, he’s a far more mature, disciplined quarterback."

 

 

Feel free to tell somebody who's spent the last 34 years watching "all-22" film for a living that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's talking about.   

[Dustin]

ITT: Steelers fan lays down knowledge.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Upside, like when Hall-of-Fame head coach Bill Parcells referred to Roethlisberger as the best QB prospect since Dan Marino?

 

LOLOL!!! Yeah fail. The big Tune hyped up Tony Romo too. How'd that work out?

 

As for "dumbing down" the playbook, please provide a link to support that claim.

 

Oh please, this isn't an episode of law & order. Go find your own links. Everyone knows your boy had a dumbed down playbook his rookie year and is generally about as bright as Gary Busey. He called Haley's playbook the Rosetta stone and then admitted to calling Arians plays during games instead. heck in 2010 his teammates didn't even elect him as captain.

 

Take away the ground game and defense and you get exactly what the Steelers had last year: a spot on the couch come playoff time.

 

Your boy is a brick. Get over it.

[Gnutella0]

LOLOL!!! Yeah fail. The big Tune hyped up Tony Romo too. How'd that work out?

 

 

Oh please, this isn't an episode of law & order. Go find your own links. Everyone knows your boy had a dumbed down playbook his rookie year and is generally about as bright as Gary Busey. He called Haley's playbook the Rosetta stone and then admitted to calling Arians plays during games instead. heck in 2010 his teammates didn't even elect him as captain.

 

Take away the ground game and defense and you get exactly what the Steelers had last year: a spot on the couch come playoff time.

 

Your boy is a brick. Get over it.

 

Speaking of bricks, anybody who thinks that the Steelers have had a good running game at any time in the last five years is a brick. They haven't finished in the top 10 in rushing yards or YPC since 2007.

 

Just because you have a blog doesn't mean you have credibility.

[NewEra]

Innocence doesn't have to be proven; guilt does. People are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Tell that to Oj Simpson

[Gnutella0]

Tell that to Oj Simpson

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at. O.J. Simpson went on trial for murder and was acquitted, then later on was sued for wrongful death and found guilty based on a preponderance of the evidence. The threshold is lower in civil court than it is in criminal court. Today he's in jail for robbery.

 

Ben Roethlisberger has never even been indicted for a crime, let alone convicted. The DA in charge of the investigation in Georgia said they had no probable cause for arrest, and coworkers of the plaintiff in the Nevada civil case were ready to testify against her.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Just because you have a blog doesn't mean you have credibility.

 

Just because you don't doesn't mean you do...........?

 

I dunno, sounds kinda childish. But it was the obvious response so...yeah...that.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Arians and Ben are close friends, and Ben has league experience, so no surprise on BA's take.

 

Luck saying he's not near top 100?  Well before last season he's on record saying he studied and wants to play like 4 QB's, Ben Roethlisburger being one. (Peyton Manningm Dew Brees, and Phillips Rivers being the other 3). So he won't feel he overtook him in year 1.  Not Luck's style.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82af2d25/article/andrew-luck-wants-to-be-like-ben-roethlisberger

[Fx Stryker]

If Big Ben is so fabulous as a NFL field general, why in the Hades did he lose to Aaron Rogers & the Green Bay Packers in Super Bowl XLV Bruce? Care to field that one? 

 

I love how SB loses rarely come up for seasoned veterans.   

 

You know, unless you name is Peyton Manning.  

[Mouthfire]

You know, unless you name is Peyton Manning.  

Or Tom Brady?

[cranium cramp]

Wow reading some of these comments.........The only comment I have is, check out the avatar, it applies to several post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks again Jules  for the avatar, save a lot of typing.

[Pombi9]

Well, posting about the poll and Arian's statement is one thing... which, of course, I'm totally fine with.. Assigning an ulterior motive to it (ie "Appears to me he went out of his way to make this argument.") is a completely different thing, and does bespeak of a bit of whininess.

You said it yourself: Bruce was just being honest. What, do you want him to lie about it? I'm pretty sure Luck doesn't want him to.

You act as if he was forced to answer and there is no middle ground. He doesn't have to Lie, but he also does not have to be honest. Ever watched a Bill Belicheck Press confrence?

Most coaches would have just said something to the affect of "They are both really good players... blah blah blah." but when the coach comes out and says this, it is a headline. And the coach knows the ramifications of that when he says it.

[Mouthfire]

You act as if he was forced to answer and there is no middle ground. He doesn't have to Lie, but he also does not have to be honest. Ever watched a Bill Belicheck Press confrence?

Most coaches would have just said something to the affect of "They are both really good players... blah blah blah." but when the coach comes out and says this, it is a headline. And the coach knows the ramifications of that when he says it.

 

And you know what?  I admire Arians infinitely more than Billichek, in this regard.

 

Seriously... I've never seen so much teenage-type angst over an off-hand statement before.  Andrew Luck agrees with him, for goodness sake.

 

Luck doesn't think it's a big deal, Arians doesn't think it's a big deal, and I'll assure you, no one in the Colts organization thinks it's a big deal.  The only people who really seem to care are fans who would rather get smoke blown up their behinds rather than hear an honest opinion. 

[azcolt]

There is a video as well as an article here are the main excerpt's,

When he was told Luck likely will be ranked ahead of Big Ben he said,

"That surprises me." "Andrew belongs on the list, but he's not at that stage yet. He's got to put a couple rings on his finger and a bunch more wins."

Full article here:http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000202195/article/bruce-arians-dont-rank-andrew-luck-over-big-ben

Some here still hold a grudge against Arians, for numerous reasons. I am sure this will only fuel that. While I believe he was simply answering honestly, but he is a HC now and could have easily deflected this topic had he chosen. Appears to me he went out of his way to make this argument.

What do you'd j guys think? A couple more rings seems like a stretch to me.

If two rings is the test Ben is better than Peyton and Dan Marino. We'll see how good Luck is when Arians finishes in last place with Carson Palmer. Arians surely did a good job last year but Luck was the difference, that and Chuck mojo. What offended me is the lack of gratitude. Did he get the Cards job based on being Ben's mentor? No, that got him unemployment. He got the Cards job largely because of Andrew Luck's phenomenal talent, as a rookie, no less.

[braveheartcolt]

If two rings is the test Ben is better than Peyton and Dan Marino. We'll see how good Luck is when Arians finishes in last place with Carson Palmer. Arians surely did a good job last year but Luck was the difference, that and Chuck mojo. What offended me is the lack of gratitude. Did he get the Cards job based on being Ben's mentor? No, that got him unemployment. He got the Cards job largely because of Andrew Luck's phenomenal talent, as a rookie, no less.

What lack of gratitude? Having the nerve to say a twice SB winning QB that he coached for years was currently a better player than a rookie? Perspective please......

[Mouthfire]

What lack of gratitude? Having the nerve to say a twice SB winning QB that he coached for years was currently a better player than a rookie? Perspective please......

People are just looking to gripe, I guess. Arians left the Colts on pretty good terms. I guessing some people are just bitter that he left at all.