I Need To See More From Dallas Clark

[IndyTrav]

Perhaps if you would read posts more clearly and not let your obvious Colts-hatred cloud every post you make, then you might have noticed that Superman clearly said

I've bolded, underlined and just for good measure changed the color of the operative word....Clark is one of the elite RECEIVING TE's. I don't think anyone has ever said that Clark is the overall best TE in the game due to his blocking deficiencies, however he is one of the best Receiving TE's in the game.

Your right, all Clark does is catch balls, and not block, so saying he is an Elite Receiving TE is a nice backhanded way of saying he's not a complete player. Therefore, not elite. Not hard.

[Superman]

Another thing: You'll have to temper some of the more enthusiastic comments about Clark, because many are coming to his defense against ridiculous charges. One poster in another thread claimed that Clark has terrible hands and has dropped more passes than he's caught. Some are calling for him to be cut because he can't block James Harrison and Mario Williams. So yeah, some might be overstating his value, but it's in response to some pretty strange negativity regarding one of our best offensive weapons.

I don't know what Clark's numbers will wind up being over the course of his career. I don't know if he's HOF material. I do know he's an integral part of our offense, and defenses respect him as such. He was being doubled regularly before he got hurt last year, and that's part of the reason Austin Collie was so productive. He's easily a top five tight end, if you ask me (Witten, Gonzalez, Finley and Gates being the other five, in whatever order you'd like to put them in). Even with a couple of drops and a couple of blown blocking assignments, I'm still thrilled that he's on our team.

[Jason_]

Your right, all Clark does is catch balls, and not block, so saying he is an Elite Receiving TE is a nice backhanded way of saying he's not a complete player. Therefore, not elite. Not hard.

You're right that it's also a way of saying he's not a complete player...I would agree with that and with the fact that he's not an overall elite TE due to the inability to block efficiently. The same could also be true when saying Bracket is an elite coverage LB (who sucks against the run) or that Mathis and Freeney are elite pass rushers (but also not very good against the run, though I will give these guys credit in that they are at least more effective against the run than they were 2 or 3 years ago where they were constantly spinning themselves out of plays).

You're still coming off though as implying that everyone is saying Clark is an overall elite TE and that's simply not true. I have never, nor would I ever, say that. He is, however, among the best receiving TE's (TE's who are used for their receiving abilities and not for their blocking).

[IndyTrav]

Those averages don't take into consideration the games he's missed due to injury. And that's a fair consideration if you're talking about how good of a player he is. The most important ability is availability. But don't present career averages without regard for the fact that those numbers are skewed by missed games.

I don't know who is calling him a super elite player. I think he's easily a top five tight end in the NFL right now. I don't know why you're pretending that people are presenting him as a first ballot hall of famer that we could never get over losing. The point is that he's a top level tight end in the NFL. The fact that he's 32, that he's only had two elite seasons (by your definitions), etc., has no bearing on the fact that he's still among the best at his position.

Sure they are skewed bc of missed games. The same way his 100rec is skewed, but it all comes clean in the wash. Dallas Clark has had the benefit of playing with the GOAT, and thats the real rub. How negligible of a difference would you find between Celek/Daniels/Clark? now which one has been on a high powered off, with the goat, with multiple threats, and taken in the first round?

[colts_mp]

So let me get this straight. Dallas doesn't block - I think everyone's in agreement on this. This year he's not doing any catching either. So how's he helping the team?

Can this elite or top 5 TE (as some of you claim) only catch balls that Peyton Manning throws to him?

The way I see it is he better find a way to get open and catch anything that's thrown his way since he's a one-dimensional TE. At 6'3 250 he should be at least be able to slow down a Williams or Harrison. He can practice against Freeney if he needs some experience.

[John Waylon]

The old facepalm is working overtime right now...

[Superman]

Your right, all Clark does is catch balls, and not block, so saying he is an Elite Receiving TE is a nice backhanded way of saying he's not a complete player. Therefore, not elite. Not hard.

No. If you are going to require that a tight end be a standout receiver and a dominant blocker before you can call him a complete player, then I'm going to have to say that you're working from a different criteria than most others are. He's not Tony Gonzalez or Jason Witten, but Dallas Clark fills his role as well as any other tight end in the NFL. For years, though he's not a crushing blocker, he's been adequate as a blocker, and a significant option in the passing game. Antonio Gates isn't a very good blocker. Jermichael Finley, either. The tight end position has evolved in recent years as offenses pass more often. You go too far to claim that because a tight end isn't able to handle elite pass rushers that he's not a complete player.

It's also a fallacy to say that because a player isn't complete, whatever that means, that he's not elite. Michael Vick isn't complete as a passer. He's elite. Adrian Peterson isn't complete as a running back. He's elite. Dwight Freeney isn't complete as a defensive end. He's elite. I don't know what standards you're trying to hold Dallas Clark up to. He's supposed to block like a tackle and catch like a receiver, and then you'll consider him elite? That's not what the tight end position is. You usually get one or the other. It's very rare that you have any semblance of a combination of the two. And even then, Witten or Gonzalez aren't infallible as blockers themselves.

[JoKeR]

Clark? What about Wayne? What about Garcon? What about Collie? What about Gonzo?

Ohhhhhhh WAIT ... this is not about receivers it IS about the QB !!!

Its just not that obvious to some people I guess. I don't get why they don't see it either. I think anger and disappointment is getting in the way of critical thinking, that and alcohol maybe.

[IndyTrav]

He's easily a top five tight end, if you ask me (Witten, Gonzalez, Finley and Gates being the other five, in whatever order you'd like to put them in). Even with a couple of drops and a couple of blown blocking assignments, I'm still thrilled that he's on our team.

I can take those guys, add in V.Davis above Dallas for me. Then I put Dallas somewhere in the muddy middle, bc personally Im not entirely sure guys like Keller,Daniels,Celek, both NE TEs, Miller, Cooley, Moeki, Pettigrew all couldn't do exactly what Dallas does, maybe better, when put in the same positions.

[Jason_]

Its just not that obvious to some people I guess. I don't get why they don't see it either. I think anger and disappointment is getting in the way of critical thinking, that and alcohol maybe.

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

[Superman]

Sure they are skewed bc of missed games. The same way his 100rec is skewed, but it all comes clean in the wash. Dallas Clark has had the benefit of playing with the GOAT, and thats the real rub. How negligible of a difference would you find between Celek/Daniels/Clark? now which one has been on a high powered off, with the goat, with multiple threats, and taken in the first round?

How is 100 receptions skewed? He got open 100 times, caught 100 passes, ten of them for touchdowns. How is that skewed? Keep in mind, I'm talking about career season averages, which you presented, without regard for the fact that career season averages don't get adjusted for games played. He played 16 games in 2009, and put together one of the best all time seasons for any tight end.

That's not "skewed" because he caught passes from Peyton Manning. Take that into consideration if you want, but that doesn't skew his numbers. Saying his career season averages are "x" without mentioning games played is where you see skewed numbers.

[John Waylon]

Its just not that obvious to some people I guess. I don't get why they don't see it either. I think anger and disappointment is getting in the way of critical thinking, that and alcohol maybe.

I dunno. Go and look at some of the other posts made by people who think Clark is a bad player... I don't think they were geniuses even when we had a winning record...

[Superman]

I can take those guys, add in V.Davis above Dallas for me. Then I put Dallas somewhere in the muddy middle, bc personally Im not entirely sure guys like Keller,Daniels,Celek, both NE TEs, Miller, Cooley, Moeki, Pettigrew all couldn't do exactly what Dallas does, maybe better, when put in the same positions.

Vernon Davis is one heck of a talent who has been underwhelming from a production standpoint most of his career. He's never had even a decent quarterback, so maybe that's not his fault. But it's one thing to give a player credit for what he's done. It's another entirely to give him credit for what you think he could do given different circumstances. Dallas Clark has proven that he can produce. The guys you're mentioning, while all very good players, haven't even approached what Dallas has done. I like them all. Dustin Keller put in the most impressive combine workout I've ever seen, and earned himself a first round selection because of it. His best season is 55 catches, 5 touchdowns (pretty much the same numbers you're presenting as Clark's career averages, without adjusting for games missed or for the first year when he wasn't a starter, or for the years when he was the fourth option behind any combination of Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Edge, Addai, etc.)

And of your list above, only two of them (Moeaki and Gronkowski) are considerably better blockers than Dallas.

[chad72]

We do need a 2nd blocking TE in the draft next year. At some point in time (snow or rain outside in the playoffs), we will need to ice a game running the ball and cannot continue doing that passing the ball and using a weakside blocker like Dallas for that. Need that big bodied 2nd blocking TE, they are dime a dozen if we can get one for cheap either as a FA or in the draft.

[IndyTrav]

How is 100 receptions skewed? He got open 100 times, caught 100 passes, ten of them for touchdowns. How is that skewed? Keep in mind, I'm talking about career season averages, which you presented, without regard for the fact that career season averages don't get adjusted for games played. He played 16 games in 2009, and put together one of the best all time seasons for any tight end.

That's not "skewed" because he caught passes from Peyton Manning. Take that into consideration if you want, but that doesn't skew his numbers. Saying his career season averages are "x" without mentioning games played is where you see skewed numbers.

The nice round 100 number is skewed bc he was trotted out there to reach it. And yes it's skewed bc it's so far off his career averages for every other year. It's the exception not the standard.

[Gonzo]

This is a passing league. Several of the top TEs in the league are decent blockers, but I don't think any of them are so much better then Clark as a blocker that they could be asked to block Harrison or Mario Williams one on one with any success. He's been playing hurt and put into some very bad positions by poor protections.

[Coffeedrinker]

Has Clark benefitted from having Manning throw the ball... no doubt. But Manning would not throw him the ball if he was not the best option on that play. So Clark knows how to get open, he knows how to catch the ball and he knows how to score TDs. Those are all good things for a TE.

As far as his blocking, Clark is not a drive blocker but he's pretty good at shielding and mirroring. But this is what happens when people listen to the announcers instead of watching the games. Clark blocked a LB that could have had an impact on the play on 9 running plays, he got beat on two of them. Yet somehow those 2 prove he's a bad blocker rather than those 7 proving he's okay at it. How exactly does that work?

Eldridge is the drive blocker and he is becoming quite awesome at it. Clark will never be as good at blocking at Eldridge, of course Eldridge doesn't cause mismatch nightmares for DCs either.

[Coffeedrinker]

The nice round 100 number is skewed bc he was trotted out there to reach it. And yes it's skewed bc it's so far off his career averages for every other year. It's the exception not the standard.

Isn't that kind of like saying that a RB is not that good because if you take away his 80 yard runs, he didn't get as many yards?

If you are going to throw out his best season and say that is skewed then you have to throw out his worst season as well, because that will skew the numbers as well.

[JoKeR]

On this issue I truely think its the coaching staff that should get the blame. The commentators see the errors in this as well. Its also possible the O-line isn't helping Clark they way they should.

[chad72]

This is a passing league. Several of the top TEs in the league are decent blockers, but I don't think any of them are so much better then Clark as a blocker that they could be asked to block Harrison or Mario Williams one on one with any success. He's been playing hurt and put into some very bad positions by poor protections.

I can say maybe Tony Gonzalez, Gates, Witten (and now recently Jermichael Finley, Graham and the Pats TEs) have the capability to get open like Clark vs a safety or LB and can make key 3rd down catches. Soft hands - I would have to say Gonzalez, Gates and Clark lead the pack.

There are a lot of receiving TEs that can make catches when they are wide open but Clark is one of the few that can catch it in traffic better than most. The 2006 playoff run and onwards, he has shown a consistent ability to do that.

[IndyTrav]

Isn't that kind of like saying that a RB is not that good because if you take away his 80 yard runs, he didn't get as many yards?

If you are going to throw out his best season and say that is skewed then you have to throw out his worst season as well, because that will skew the numbers as well.

It does, which is why I did his entire career, based on seasons, not games played, and he averages something like 49/500/5.

On a per game basis, he's done it once, Dallas career avg 59/689/6.7

[Superman]

The nice round 100 number is skewed bc he was trotted out there to reach it. And yes it's skewed bc it's so far off his career averages for every other year. It's the exception not the standard.

That works both ways. We pulled him against the Jets when he had a chance to make significant headway there. He already had 93 catches. Had we simply played for the win, he'd have been significantly close. Even without the 100 catches, say he hadn't played at all in Buffalo, 93 passes caught is pretty doggone good. I don't care about the nice round number. Point is that he put in a very, very good season.

And saying that a career year is skewing his career season averages is crazy. That's like throwing out Manning's 2004, or Brady's 2007. He put up those numbers. Why would we not count them just because they were really, really good?

[Gonzo]

I can say maybe Tony Gonzalez, Gates, Witten (and now recently Jermichael Finley, Graham and the Pats TEs) have the capability to get open like Clark vs a safety or LB and can make key 3rd down catches. Soft hands - I would have to say Gonzalez, Gates and Clark lead the pack.

There are a lot of receiving TEs that can make catches when they are wide open but Clark is one of the few that can catch it in traffic better than most. The 2006 playoff run and onwards, he has shown a consistent ability to do that.

No doubt. It didn't impress in the stat column, but that one handed one yard catch off a pitifully thrown Collins pass against the Texans was a thing of beauty. He makes adjustments like an elite wide receiver, and that's been a huge part of this teams success the last few years.

[Superman]

It does, which is why I did his entire career, based on seasons, not games played, and he averages something like 49/500/5.

You're sticking to this "seasons" angle because you think it lends itself to your argument. It doesn't. It makes you look stubborn. Truth is if Clark only put up 49/500/5 this year, we'd be complaining about his reduced production. Everyone knows that's not representative of what he does for our offense.

[Moose Of Woe]

I want to know who the genius is that matched Dallas Clark against Troy Polamalu.

Clark may still be good/great..but it's impossible to tell when the QB can't get him the ball and he's put on terrible assignments.

[21isSuperman]

We don't need to trade Clark. But on a somewhat related topic, it kind of looked like him and Reggie were dogging it. They seemed like they weren't giving it their all

[IndyTrav]

You're sticking to this "seasons" angle because you think it lends itself to your argument. It doesn't. It makes you look stubborn. Truth is if Clark only put up 49/500/5 this year, we'd be complaining about his reduced production. Everyone knows that's not representative of what he does for our offense.

No it makes me look like I don't have a bunch of time on my hands (I do) and his per 16 game average was posted above. 59rec/689yds/6.7tds.

As a point of reference that 'underachiever' Vernon Davis, he's 53/680/6.1 ..........

[mtlgear86]

http://youtu.be/cf7iH3ZPOHU

enough said

[Jason_]

We don't need to trade Clark. But on a somewhat related topic, it kind of looked like him and Reggie were dogging it. They seemed like they weren't giving it their all

I was wondering if anyone else saw that. I would add in Garcon as well. It seemed like the entire offense stepped up when Painter came in, like they were fully supportive of him and going all out to help him succeed whereas I didn't see that when Collins was in.

[chad72]

No doubt. It didn't impress in the stat column, but that one handed one yard catch off a pitifully thrown Collins pass against the Texans was a thing of beauty. He makes adjustments like an elite wide receiver, and that's been a huge part of this teams success the last few years.

Let us not forget that unreal throw Peyton threw behind an outstretched Ray Lewis and Dallas Clark could see it only for a sliver of a second but ended up catching it for a key 3rd down catch in that 2006 Ravens playoff game. Plus, that throw that Peyton had over the top of Saints defenders rolling out to the right and Dallas Clark stretching out in anticipation and catching it when we were down 10-13 after the onside kick, we went on to score a TD to get to 17-13 after that catch. That is when Sean Payton told Greg Williams to put more people on Clark saying that "we are not going to let their best player beat us, got that?" Big words, IMO, acknowledging how big DC really was to this offense.

[chad72]

I was wondering if anyone else saw that. I would add in Garcon as well. It seemed like the entire offense stepped up when Painter came in, like they were fully supportive of him and going all out to help him succeed whereas I didn't see that when Collins was in.

One of my friends who went to the game told me that Gonzo, when he played briefly, got open several times and not once did Collins look his way, including the possibility of a TD down the seam. Collins just cannot work the seam well, let us see what Painter can do given the chance on MNF. I hope the first play is like that Miami 2009 game, play action, down the seam to Clark .

[mtlgear86]

I was wondering if anyone else saw that. I would add in Garcon as well. It seemed like the entire offense stepped up when Painter came in, like they were fully supportive of him and going all out to help him succeed whereas I didn't see that when Collins was in.

Not the only one, it did look like everyone stepped up. Garcon mostly. He had 3, if i remember correctly, on the final drive. The out route to the right side of the field was timed perfectly. Chris Collinsworth was saying that was the best timed pass all season from the QB to WR. I was surprised, maybe with all Painters time on the sideline he picked something up and carried over.....crossing fingers here.

[GoColts8818]

Do we really need two bash on Dallas Clark threads on the front page?

[chad72]

Not the only one, it did look like everyone stepped up. Garcon mostly. He had 3, if i remember correctly, on the final drive. The out route to the right side of the field was timed perfectly. Chris Collinsworth was saying that was the best timed pass all season from the QB to WR. I was surprised, maybe with all Painters time on the sideline he picked something up and carried over.....crossing fingers here.

Let us not forget that in the absence of Peyton, it was Painter who took all TC snaps. So, he was ahead of Kerry Collins on the first team offense snaps till the team decided to go Kerry Collins' way. I still believe it was a PR move by the Colts so that they could get fans to come to the games (since fan sentiment was not in favor of Painter). They could then replace Collins with Painter and say "hey, we tried". They did try but I don't think the Colts nor us fans expected Kerry Collins to be a shadow of his 2008 self, which seems to be the case.

[mtlgear86]

I was stoked when I learned Collins was coming to the team, but I didnt expect him to start over Painter. Painter never really had a time to shine. I believe his stats were something of 5-8 for 68 yards? Compared to Collins 10-20, 78 yards? That just shows lack of knowledge of the offense. He said he was comfortable but it didnt show, in 3 weeks, 3 fumbles. Its like how everyone was raving about how bad Sorgi was but id prefer one of the back ups that have been there for years. No way is anyone going to learn a complex offense in 16 days. I presumed Collins was there for moral support for the back up to give him advice since Peyton wasnt on the field.

[IcEWoLF]

Clark is past his prime.

Time for the Colts to look for a big target.

[coltfaninnewyork]

Clark is fine,he will return to his old self when peyton is back.

[Superman]

One of my friends who went to the game told me that Gonzo, when he played briefly, got open several times and not once did Collins look his way, including the possibility of a TD down the seam. Collins just cannot work the seam well, let us see what Painter can do given the chance on MNF. I hope the first play is like that Miami 2009 game, play action, down the seam to Clark .

There was a play in the second half where the Steelers showed a late blitz from the back side. They rotated the coverage to that side and let Collie release completely free on the front side. I believe Collins threw the ball out of bounds over Reggie's head. That should be an automatic first down to Austin, and I think a pro quarterback should hit that pass. It helps you establish a rhythm, keeps your offense on the field, and it keeps their defense out of those back side blitzes.

I don't know why, but Collins has been struggling mightily in those situations. If he would hit his hot receivers, the offense could sustain some drives, put more points on the board, and give the defense a break.

[Coffeedrinker]

It does, which is why I did his entire career, based on seasons, not games played, and he averages something like 49/500/5.

On a per game basis, he's done it once, Dallas career avg 59/689/6.7

But you can't say it's the exception because of his talent. Exception because of injuries, most definitely. But it is no more or less an anamoly(sp?? I'm too lazy to look it up) than his worst season.

[Coffeedrinker]

I was stoked when I learned Collins was coming to the team, but I didnt expect him to start over Painter. Painter never really had a time to shine. I believe his stats were something of 5-8 for 68 yards? Compared to Collins 10-20, 78 yards? That just shows lack of knowledge of the offense. He said he was comfortable but it didnt show, in 3 weeks, 3 fumbles. Its like how everyone was raving about how bad Sorgi was but id prefer one of the back ups that have been there for years. No way is anyone going to learn a complex offense in 16 days. I presumed Collins was there for moral support for the back up to give him advice since Peyton wasnt on the field.

He was 5 of 11 for 60 yards.

Collins was 13 of 29 for 93 yards.