Janoris Jenkins was balling

[Warhawk]

Way too early.

Strictly speaking, Fleener is on pace for a better rookie year in terms of receptions and yards than Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Vernon Davis, Rob Gronkowski, Jason Witten, Jermichael Finley, Todd Heap, Jimmy Graham, Brandon Pettigrew, Owen Daniels, Kyle Rudolph, Heath Miller, Kevin Boss, Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Marcedes Lewis, Jared Cook, Greg Olsen, Brent Celek, Fred Davis, Jermaine Gresham, Martellus Bennett, Dennis Pitta, Zach Miller, Tony Scheffler...

None of those guys had more receptions OR yards than Fleener is on pace for. The only - ONLY - guy I found who did better than what Fleener is on pace for in his rookie year in EITHER category was Aaron Hernandez, and Hernandez only beats Fleener's pace in yards - he had fewer receptions than Fleener is on pace for.

I could probably go on, but the point is, rookie TEs do NOT produce at elite levels. Ever. In compiling the above list, I didn't stumble across ANY active TEs with a clearly better rookie season than the one Fleener is on pace for (52 catches for 556 yards) - Hernandez is the only one who has an argument. I'm sure there may be one or two out there, but none of those guys did better than that. Most did substantially worse.

Fleener is a tight end. And based on the career track of basically EVERY tight end in the NFL today, we have to give him two years MINIMIUM.

[Gavin]

What's more ridiculous is people downplaying crimes and convincing themselves that a player with a bad history can change overnight.

I for one hope that Jenkins stays out of trouble. I don't wish ill-will toward anyone. But when it comes down to the situation of the draft, it was too risky to put a 2nd round pick on him. It's a justified decision.

How's this for an analogy?

If Toaster A was $200 and was recalled 3 times for catching fire, you'd probably look elsewhere...perhaps for Toaster B that is $200 but has no record of catching fire. Doesn't mean that Toaster A will catch fire when you buy it, doesn't mean Toaster B won't catch fire when you buy it. All it means is that you invested wisely and were cautious with your purchase. You don't want to buy the guy that bought a $200 toaster that is known to catch fire.

again we been over this, given the Colts situation the right move was made but to keep bringing up Jenkins past (2 years ago past at that)means nothing in the present if were gonna do that then people should be all over Newton to for stealing a university laptop or Justice for soliciting a prostitute in college and brandishing a fake firearm

[indy1888]

Way too early.

Strictly speaking, Fleener is on pace for a better rookie year in terms of receptions and yards than Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Vernon Davis, Rob Gronkowski, Jason Witten, Jermichael Finley, Todd Heap, Jimmy Graham, Brandon Pettigrew, Owen Daniels, Kyle Rudolph, Heath Miller, Kevin Boss, Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Marcedes Lewis, Jared Cook, Greg Olsen, Brent Celek, Fred Davis, Jermaine Gresham, Martellus Bennett, Dennis Pitta, Zach Miller, Tony Scheffler...

None of those guys had more receptions OR yards than Fleener is on pace for. The only - ONLY - guy I found who did better than what Fleener is on pace for in his rookie year in EITHER category was Aaron Hernandez, and Hernandez only beats Fleener's pace in yards - he had fewer receptions than Fleener is on pace for.

I could probably go on, but the point is, rookie TEs do NOT produce at elite levels. Ever. In compiling the above list, I didn't stumble across ANY active TEs with a clearly better rookie season than the one Fleener is on pace for (52 catches for 556 yards) - Hernandez is the only one who has an argument. I'm sure there may be one or two out there, but none of those guys did better than that. Most did substantially worse.

Fleener is a tight end. And based on the career track of basically EVERY tight end in the NFL today, we have to give him two years MINIMIUM.

Gronkowski had 10 TD's in his rookie season, i would say that blows away Fleener regardless of yards or receptions. I'll take the 60 points to 0 every time. The 10 catch and 10 total yard difference between the 2 does not make up for it. Yes i know he was in a better offense but the Colts offense hasn't stopped Allen from racking up a couple TD's so far.

I don't even think Fleener is having a better season then Allen at this point so i have a hard time accepting that Fleener is having one of the best years of a rookie tight end ever.

[throwing BBZ]

I cannot speak for the others but personally, I do not see IT with Fleener. He does not strike me as one with a nasty attitude that goes up and high points a ball and gets it down or pancakes a LB or smaller DL in run protection etc. He does not get enough separation that I expected him to as a #1 TE. If he got open enough times, he would have been noticed more and he would have had more receptions now, that is my thought process.

Having said that, it did take Dallas Clark about 2 years to come into his element with a Peyton led offense. Maybe I get caught up in the "why cant we expect ourselves to win more now with everyone contributing" moments as a Colts fan, and probably should re-set my expectations constantly.

You talk in circles.

Dallas had a high of 37 catches in his 1st 4 years. He Always dropped a few, and I Guarantee you he NEVER blocked as well as Fleener does now. He was Awful!

Dallas had 3 good seasons in a row in years 5,6,7, and fell off the map after that. 58, 77, and 100 catches, Then 37, 34, 9.

Clark gets hurt and Tamme catches 67.

See us in year three of putting this O together. After 4 games Luck is not much over 50% on completions. Some of that is route running, but he is throwing behind his receivers A LOT! His O-Line will improve, his arm will get a little stronger and his timing will get better. :dancing:

[NewColtsFan]

whats really ridiculous is everyone salivating just waiting and hoping for Jenkins to get in trouble just to say I told you so

Gavin..... the "I told you so..." mantra goes both ways....

Forget being a bust, but if Coby is only good, while Jenkins goes on to be a Pro Bowl talent, the pro-Jenkins crowd will be screaming about that forever! We will never hear the end of it.

The bottom line for me is this.... with all the needs this team had starting a multiple year re-build, the Colts couldn't afford to take Jenkins with the 34th pick... too much of a risk. Maybe they might've taken him where we took Allen (that would've been ironic!) But the risk/reward ratio was too high and the team re-build too important to take a guy with Million Dollar Talent, but a 10-cent head.

Just my two cents...

[Warhawk]

Gronkowski had 10 TD's in his rookie season, i would say that blows away Fleener regardless of yards or receptions. I'll take the 60 points to 0 every time. The 10 catch and 10 total yard difference between the 2 does not make up for it. Yes i know he was in a better offense but the Colts offense hasn't stopped Allen from racking up a couple TD's so far.

I don't even think Fleener is having a better season then Allen at this point so i have a hard time accepting that Fleener is having one of the best years of a rookie tight end ever.

You are very badly missing my point. While I realize that Gronkowski's TD numbers are much better, the point still stands that, looking at dozens of active TEs, I could not find a single one with more receptions and yards than Fleener is on pace for. That's remarkable. And that's not saying that Fleener is having "one of the best years of a rookie tight end ever" (that's just putting ridiculous words in my mouth), just that, for a rookie TE, there's nothing wrong with his first four games. If you're saying he's been a failure so far, you're the one who is basically saying that he was a bad pick UNLESS he has the greatest rookie season for a tight end ever. And that's a ridiculous standard you're holding him to.

Regardless, the fact that pretty much all the other active TEs in the NFL didn't put up elite numbers their first year (Gronk's TDs notwithstanding) indicates that judging the Fleener pick based on his first 4 games is silly. Many of those players I listed have had quite good careers (hall of fame in several cases). Their teams didn't give up on them after a 20-30 catch, 200-400 yard rookie season. Why should we do so after 4 games where Fleener is on pace to have a pretty good year by those standards?

[BrentMc11]

Gavin..... the "I told you so..." mantra goes both ways....

Forget being a bust, but if Coby is only good, while Jenkins goes on to be a Pro Bowl talent, the pro-Jenkins crowd will be screaming about that forever! We will never hear the end of it.

The bottom line for me is this.... with all the needs this team had starting a multiple year re-build, the Colts couldn't afford to take Jenkins with the 34th pick... too much of a risk. Maybe they might've taken him where we took Allen (that would've been ironic!) But the risk/reward ratio was too high and the team re-build too important to take a guy with Million Dollar Talent, but a 10-cent head.

Just my two cents...

Good point NCF, and I love the new avatar!!!

[FightLikeSin]

Gavin..... the "I told you so..." mantra goes both ways....

Forget being a bust, but if Coby is only good, while Jenkins goes on to be a Pro Bowl talent, the pro-Jenkins crowd will be screaming about that forever! We will never hear the end of it.

The bottom line for me is this.... with all the needs this team had starting a multiple year re-build, the Colts couldn't afford to take Jenkins with the 34th pick... too much of a risk. Maybe they might've taken him where we took Allen (that would've been ironic!) But the risk/reward ratio was too high and the team re-build too important to take a guy with Million Dollar Talent, but a 10-cent head.

Just my two cents...

I feel like that stream of thought would never end though. It's all in hindsight. There are a lot of great players who make it past the 4th, 5th and so on...even undrafted players that make it to the Pro Bowl. You can't look back on situations and played the could'a would'a should'a game.

We got a quality TE. I think Coby showed his value yesterday with a solid game and a clutch 3rd down catch with a defender draped all over him. I'm not sad about picking him over Jenkins at all.

[John Waylon]

So what?

Nothing good comes out of playing hindsight with the draft.

You win some, you lose some. Nature of the beast.

[weslo1812]

I cannot speak for the others but personally, I do not see IT with Fleener. He does not strike me as one with a nasty attitude that goes up and high points a ball and gets it down or pancakes a LB or smaller DL in run protection etc. He does not get enough separation that I expected him to as a #1 TE. If he got open enough times, he would have been noticed more and he would have had more receptions now, that is my thought process.

Having said that, it did take Dallas Clark about 2 years to come into his element with a Peyton led offense. Maybe I get caught up in the "why cant we expect ourselves to win more now with everyone contributing" moments as a Colts fan, and probably should re-set my expectations constantly.

You need to give some players TIME! People get this urge to expect way too much way too early. It can take to time to adjust to the pro's even for talented players. Not everyone comes in and excells right away. He will start coming around soon.

[NewColtsFan]

I feel like that stream of thought would never end though. It's all in hindsight. There are a lot of great players who make it past the 4th, 5th and so on...even undrafted players that make it to the Pro Bowl. You can't look back on situations and played the could'a would'a should'a game.

We got a quality TE. I think Coby showed his value yesterday with a solid game and a clutch 3rd down catch with a defender draped all over him. I'm not sad about picking him over Jenkins at all.

I'm glad to see that there are some here who still like and support Coby....and having seen him play all of his games I will say this.... the Coby Fleener we're all seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg to what we will see someday down the road.

To me, watching him, the game is so fast for him, he seems so tentative, like he's thinking so much and so hard.

Run Pattern. Make Cut Here. Get Ready to Catch Ball. Catch Ball. Turn and Run. Get Ready to be Tackled.

Once the game slows down for him, and he and Andrew get back on the same page, Fleener can and I think will become a tremendous weapon for the Colts. I'm confident that day is coming. I just don't know when. I don't think it's fair to judge other rookies by how fast we're seeing Luck adapt to the NFL. Goodness, he seemed to get so much better in just the last two weeks with the bye!

So, judging by regular rookie standards, Fleener should be fine. It's the 'when' that I'm not sure about.

[braveheartcolt]

Gronkowski had 10 TD's in his rookie season, i would say that blows away Fleener regardless of yards or receptions. I'll take the 60 points to 0 every time. The 10 catch and 10 total yard difference between the 2 does not make up for it. Yes i know he was in a better offense but the Colts offense hasn't stopped Allen from racking up a couple TD's so far.

I don't even think Fleener is having a better season then Allen at this point so i have a hard time accepting that Fleener is having one of the best years of a rookie tight end ever.

10 games young man, 10 games. We 'shook' on it!

[braveheartcolt]

I liked the play of both TE's yesterday myself......and boy do I wish we had not given up that 80 yd pass by Gabbert.....we would be 3-1...... :blueshoe:

Stop it! No shoulda coulda's here! Look forward. We win the next 5, and NE get nervous!!

[chad72]

NE get nervous!!

The ones we really need to make nervous are the Texans, I just do not think we can do enough damage to the Texans because they may have separated themselves from the AFC pack by the time we play them.

Maybe they can rest their starters if they are 14-1 and do what Dungy did for the Titans to get in as a #6 seed over the Browns a few years ago.

[#12]

See us in year three of putting this O together. After 4 games Luck is not much over 50% on completions. Some of that is route running, but he is throwing behind his receivers A LOT! His O-Line will improve, his arm will get a little stronger and his timing will get better. :dancing:

There are so many factors in the offense looking the way it currently does:

- pass protection

- new team, new coaching staff, new offense, inexperienced players, young players

- rookie QB

- inconsistent running game

See us in year three of putting this O together

Exactly. In year three, with experience, with better pass protection, it will be second nature. You will see the timing and precision. You will see Luck leading receivers. You can't fully judge Fleener, Luck or anyone until year 3. This is a complete organizational overhaul.

[braveheartcolt]

The ones we really need to make nervous are the Texans, I just do not think we can do enough damage to the Texans because they may have separated themselves from the AFC pack by the time we play them.

Maybe they can rest their starters if they are 14-1 and do what Dungy did for the Titans to get in as a #6 seed over the Browns a few years ago.

Yup, agree on all counts! To counter, if we can lose to the Jags, we can lose to any and all of the next 5 opponents!

[indy1888]

You are very badly missing my point. While I realize that Gronkowski's TD numbers are much better, the point still stands that, looking at dozens of active TEs, I could not find a single one with more receptions and yards than Fleener is on pace for. That's remarkable. And that's not saying that Fleener is having "one of the best years of a rookie tight end ever" (that's just putting ridiculous words in my mouth), just that, for a rookie TE, there's nothing wrong with his first four games. If you're saying he's been a failure so far, you're the one who is basically saying that he was a bad pick UNLESS he has the greatest rookie season for a tight end ever. And that's a ridiculous standard you're holding him to.

Regardless, the fact that pretty much all the other active TEs in the NFL didn't put up elite numbers their first year (Gronk's TDs notwithstanding) indicates that judging the Fleener pick based on his first 4 games is silly. Many of those players I listed have had quite good careers (hall of fame in several cases). Their teams didn't give up on them after a 20-30 catch, 200-400 yard rookie season. Why should we do so after 4 games where Fleener is on pace to have a pretty good year by those standards?

I understand your point. I also understand that Fleener is likely to get a lot more playing time and targets then a lot of those guys on your list ever received as a rookie. Fleener had the opportunity to come in and play right away, heck, be the number 1 tight end right away. He SHOULD end up with more catches and yards if he receives more playing time and targets. I would argue his production as of now should be better, his drops and his catch rate are both terrible. He has at least 4 official drops.

And no, you may not have specifically stated that Fleener is having the best rookie tight end season ever, but when you claim you cant find anyone ahead of his pace, what is that actually saying? I think it's a classic case of stats not showing all or in this case even half the story. Fleener is not even the best tight end on his own team right now. In yesterdays game Fleener had more receptions and yards, but who impacted that game more? If you say Fleener, i'm gonna have to disagree.

Nobody is saying to give up on him yet though.

[BrentMc11]

Stop it! No shoulda coulda's here! Look forward. We win the next 5, and NE get nervous!!

I liked some things Arians said today......I am all for going on a roll.....just have to play good solid football.!!! (And not let a Blaine Gabbert beat ya )

[Superman]

I understand your point. I also understand that Fleener is likely to get a lot more playing time and targets then a lot of those guys on your list ever received as a rookie. Fleener had the opportunity to come in and play right away, heck, be the number 1 tight end right away. He SHOULD end up with more catches and yards if he receives more playing time and targets. I would argue his production as of now should be better, his drops and his catch rate are both terrible. He has at least 4 official drops.

And no, you may not have specifically stated that Fleener is having the best rookie tight end season ever, but when you claim you cant find anyone ahead of his pace, what is that actually saying? I think it's a classic case of stats not showing all or in this case even half the story. Fleener is not even the best tight end on his own team right now. In yesterdays game Fleener had more receptions and yards, but who impacted that game more? If you say Fleener, i'm gonna have to disagree.

Nobody is saying to give up on him yet though.

I thought Warhawk's point is that it takes rookie tight ends time, and expecting more from a rookie tight end than what Fleener is doing (from a production standpoint) is unreasonable.

From an eyeball standpoint, Fleener has some work to do. I get that. You see "playmaker" on Allen, and not really on Fleener, not so far anyways. He finally caught a pass for a third down conversion yesterday, though, so you have to give him some credit there. ;)

And I agree with you that Allen's impact has been greater, especially in yesterday's game. Fleener was second on the team with 5 catches, but Allen, Hilton, and maybe even Avery had more impactful catches, if you ask me. Allen just looked in a groove on one stretch. I get it.

But, back to Warhawk's point -- if he doesn't mind me piggy-backing -- tight end is a tough position to play, and for a rookie, regardless of starter's snaps (by the way, I wouldn't be surprised to determine that Allen got more snaps than Fleener yesterday, so this being a starter thing might not really be relevant), he's got a tough learning curve. The tight end is basically an extension of the offensive line, but also an eligible receiver. You have to know the blocking schemes, the protections, the audibles, the routes, etc. It's a tough position to learn. Trying to grade any tight end, retrospectively or not, after four games, is unfair. And all of the tight ends he mentioned earlier are proof of that. Many of them looked lost after four games. Hernandez looked like he was far and away better than Gronkowski after half a season.

[Malakai432]

I'm not worried about Fleener yet. To me he just looks thus far like he's kind of freaked out though, he just needs to toughen up, grow his hair back out, get stronger, meaner and not be so freaked out.