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chad72

Hate to bring it up, but Peyton's 21 pts at home better than Brady's 13 pts at home

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You make some great point here. Just to add something to #1, the Pats also got the benefit of a lot of questionable personal foul calls that helped sustain drives. Kind of makes up for the couple of dropped passes.

 

And to refute #2, they scored the third most points in NFL history this season, with Gronkowski missing five games. He absolutely is important to them, but his absence isn't the primary reason they only scored 13 points last night.

 

And the big thing here is -- from a Manning fan standpoint, a Colts fan standpoint -- there's always room for nuance. When someone mentions how Manning couldn't beat the Chargers in the playoffs, we can point out how those losses to the the Chargers weren't Manning's fault. We can mention how dropped passes and fumbles and no pass rush cost us in 2007, and how blown protections and terrible defense and Mike Scifres' historical game hurt us in 2008. Those losses aren't solely on Manning. But all Brady fans want to point out is the postseason win/loss record. Nuance doesn't exist when it's Manning being evaluated.

 

But once it's about Brady's losses (and he hasn't won a Super Bowl in eight consecutive seasons now), we have to talk about Welker's drop, and we have to talk about Gronkowski being hurt, and poor line play against the Giants, and tipped passes, and shoulder injuries, and poor matchups, and so on.

 

I think all of those things matter. But in the media, and among Pats fans like Snowglobe (who is noticeably absent), it's all about Brady being a winner and Manning being a choker. Then when Brady loses, there's myriad excuses for him, and when Manning wins, it's about how he only beat Rex Grossman. There's a lack of perspective in these soundbites, and it's annoying to me and others.

 

I don't hate Brady. He's a fantastic quarterback. But he has this reputation as being a rock solid clutch performer, someone who gets better in the postseason, who you can't bet against in big games. And that reputation was ill-gotten, if you ask me, and continues to live on despite nearly a decade of evidence to the contrary. He's not infallible. And though all of the recent losses are clearly not his fault, he hasn't lived up to the reputation he was given early on. Not his fault; it was an unreasonable reputation to begin with. But it continues to be pushed upon us, even though we know better.

 

I understand everything in your post and for the most part I agree with it, but my question is, why step down to their level? If they want to come in here and say Brady is the best and Manning is a choker, then so be it, bad character on their part and we all know the truth anyway. I'm just saying it's not very classy to have a thread bashing another teams QB.

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I understand everything in your post and for the most part I agree with it, but my question is, why step down to their level? If they want to come in here and say Brady is the best and Manning is a choker, then so be it, bad character on their part and we all know the truth anyway. I'm just saying it's not very classy to have a thread bashing another teams QB.

 

They've already set the narrative. I spent a lot of energy trying to convince people to think outside of the soundbites and memes, with little success. It's been a couple years since I really got into a Brady/Manning debate.

 

But I don't think this thread is based on bashing Brady. It's about how ironic it is that a certain Pats fan spent the last week bashing Manning and promoting Brady, and then seeing Brady go out and have an even worse game. If you're not willing to call Brady a choker, don't you have to slow down on labeling Manning that way? Maybe it's not classy to call someone out that way, but I think the point was that Manning's performance last week wasn't as bad, in retrospect, as it was made out to be. I don't think this thread is meant to bash Brady.

 

I don't personally care about all that. I've already slapped a label on the Pats fan myself. Most of our resident Pats fans are good posters, and I've done this whole dance with them more times than I care to remember. I respect them, and know where they stand.

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They've already set the narrative. I spent a lot of energy trying to convince people to think outside of the soundbites and memes, with little success. It's been a couple years since I really got into a Brady/Manning debate.

 

But I don't think this thread is based on bashing Brady. It's about how ironic it is that a certain Pats fan spent the last week bashing Manning and promoting Brady, and then seeing Brady go out and have an even worse game. If you're not willing to call Brady a choker, don't you have to slow down on labeling Manning that way? Maybe it's not classy to call someone out that way, but I think the point was that Manning's performance last week wasn't as bad, in retrospect, as it was made out to be. I don't think this thread is meant to bash Brady.

 

I don't personally care about all that. I've already slapped a label on the Pats fan myself. Most of our resident Pats fans are good posters, and I've done this whole dance with them more times than I care to remember. I respect them, and know where they stand.

 

I guess, it just seems silly to me to say, "Ha Ha your QB lost worse than my QB, nah nah nah na poo poo!"

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I guess, it just seems silly to me to say, "Ha Ha your QB lost worse than my QB, nah nah nah na poo poo!"

 

It didn't come across that way to me. It was more "now you're forced to acknowledge that a bad game doesn't determine a career." That's how I took it, anyways.

 

We obviously disagree about that.

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I guess, it just seems silly to me to say, "Ha Ha your QB lost worse than my QB, nah nah nah na poo poo!"

I would stop interacting in the thread if it made me feel the way you do

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I was going to say what's lost in all this Manning did better in his loss than Brady did in his loss is that BOTH did better than the Colts did.  Personally as a Colts fan I am more interested in seeing the later improve.  I understand that might not relate to everyone and that's fine just my view point on it. Of course I wish Manning would have lost and it's not breaking my heart that Tom Brady lost but none the less I think the Manning vs Brady thing is a bit played out and has been dissected to death. 

 

its-dead-jim-star-trek.jpg

 

That about sums out how I feel about the poor horse in this debate.  With that said if people wish to keep having this debate please feel free. 

Big Typo on my part I mean wish Peyton would have NOT lost.

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I guess, it just seems silly to me to say, "Ha Ha your QB lost worse than my QB, nah nah nah na poo poo!"

My quarterback threw less interceptions than yours! And shook everybody's hand after the game, your quarterback just went to the locker room and cried! Nah nah! :neener:

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Actually it is too bad they could not have combined Manning's 21 points and Brady's 13 points. Then you might have had enough of a cushion to get by the Ravens even with defensive ineptitude if you also include the two Holliday special teams TDs.

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I think this whole thing is kinda silly. Both TEAMS failed to win. Both qbs made late game mistakes. Regardless of who you like it just goes to show that a truely remarkable performance by a qb will normally beat any team and they are often a big factor in deciding outcomes but there are so many other things that happen in a game that is truely out of their control. Brady had guys drop big third down passes and his running back get knocked out and fumble. Peyton drove down the field for a late 4th quarter game winning TD to only have his safety make the worst defensive play of the year to let it go into overtime. It isn't on either of them. 

 

What I will say is this...I did NOT see either one of those two hall of fame qbs play the type of game that got them to this point this year nor carry their team to victory...or will them to win. I will point out that the Ravens Defense was more than stout!! Neither qb was able to throw the ball down the field...you saw two qbs that was forced to take what the defense was giving them and that was short check downs...and neither had a running game to rely on. Both their defenses let them down. What we saw was that Peyton didn't have a dead arm or couldn't throw the ball downfield any more than Brady. We saw both make terrible mistakes with the game on the line that is uncommon yet it is what sports is about. Very rarely do you have a Michael Jordan that hits every last shot...wins every big game....I think what we are seeing is that Brady is more similar to Peyton as of late in the playoffs more so than Montana. Manning is a less than a 500 qb in the playoffs and Brady is 7-7 since his vaunted defensive support cast left new england. We build them up just to tear them down. Winning is difficult....Brady made it look easy for so many years we gave Peyton a hard time....now we see no matter who you are....its just damn difficult.

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

Huh? "If THEY want to come in here and say ........... Manning is a choker. , then so be it, bad character on their part and we all know the truth anyway".

 

Are you saying this with a straight face?

 

If the mild tone of this thread reflects poor character and a lack of class, how exactly do you characterize the tenor of your own posts when the subject of Peyton comes up? You are consistently harsh and cruelly unfair to Peyton, and have no tolerance for any Colts fan who dares to support him. You couldn't be more confrontational if you were a Patriots troll. Now you want to rationally defend Brady and urge that we elevate the tone of the conversation? And you're a Colts fan? The irony is hilarious, and you have a lot of nerve. How about demonstrating some of your newly discovered reason, class, and fairness the next time Peyton is discussed?

BEST POST EVER!!!

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

Huh? "If THEY want to come in here and say ........... Manning is a choker. , then so be it, bad character on their part and we all know the truth anyway".

 

Are you saying this with a straight face?

 

If the mild tone of this thread reflects poor character and a lack of class, how exactly do you characterize the tenor of your own posts when the subject of Peyton comes up? You are consistently harsh and cruelly unfair to Peyton, and have no tolerance for any Colts fan who dares to support him. You couldn't be more confrontational if you were a Patriots troll. Now you want to rationally defend Brady and urge that we elevate the tone of the conversation? And you're a Colts fan? The irony is hilarious, and you have a lot of nerve. How about demonstrating some of your newly discovered reason, class, and fairness the next time Peyton is discussed?

 

My personal feelings for Peyton have nothing to do with Brady. I actually respect Brady more than Peyton, is that a crime? No. Why one might ask does a Colts fan respect the QB of a rival team more than the one that was here for the past decade? Well that is simple. Brady on multiple occasions worked his contract and even re-worked his contract so that the Patriots could afford to sign big players, and give them the best chance to win.

 

That being said, I commend you for your classy post. You do a good job at trolling someone just because they don't believe Peyton Manning is the Messiah, and you think that all colts fans should follow your irrational ideals that we should all love Peyton Manning, and that we should all hope he does great with his new team, and we should all hate the Patriots. I'm sorry senor absolutist I don't need to be oppressed by the likes of you.

 

You should really get rid of that hippie peace movement image in your signature, because if your posts are any indication your actually more about being rude, oppressive, and condescending.

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

BEST POST EVER!!!

 

BEST TROLL FOLLOWUP EVER!

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

My personal feelings for Peyton have nothing to do with Brady. I actually respect Brady more than Peyton, is that a crime? No. Why one might ask does a Colts fan respect the QB of a rival team more than the one that was here for the past decade? Well that is simple. Brady on multiple occasions worked his contract and even re-worked his contract so that the Patriots could afford to sign big players, and give them the best chance to win.

That being said, I commend you for your classy post. You do a good job at trolling someone just because they don't believe Peyton Manning is the Messiah, and you think that all colts fans should follow your irrational ideals that we should all love Peyton Manning, and that we should all hope he does great with his new team, and we should all hate the Patriots. I'm sorry senor absolutist I don't need to be oppressed by the likes of you.

You should really get rid of that hippie peace movement image in your signature, because if your posts are any indication your actually more about being rude, oppressive, and condescending.

Actually Peyton did rework his contract in years past.. I guess you must have missed that

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Actually Peyton did rework his contract in years past.. I guess you must have missed that

 

He did, but for what reason? It wasn't to sign a big name FA. If I recall it was to keep players that we already had because we overpaid them. While it is commendable to help cover up the FO mistakes, it's just not the same thing. Brady volunteered to do this so they could get Moss, and then he did it again this year to get Brandon Lloyd. I feel like Brady restructures his deal all the time for the team.

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He did, but for what reason? It wasn't to sign a big name FA. If I recall it was to keep players that we already had because we overpaid them. While it is commendable to help cover up the FO mistakes, it's just not the same thing. Brady volunteered to do this so they could get Moss, and then he did it again this year to get Brandon Lloyd. I feel like Brady restructures his deal all the time for the team.

Peyton wasn't the gm. Polian decided what to do with the savings. Its also worth mentioning neither guy took a pay cut.

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

BEST TROLL FOLLOWUP EVER!

A TROLL?? How am I a troll because I like a post? Listen Silent Hill, I have been reading here for over A YEAR. I DO NOT post very much because I have a severely disabled child that requires my attention 24/7. While I always try and give you the benefit of the doubt this was out of line. I did not say anything negative about you. Most times I respectfully disagree with you, I would appreciate the same.

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, January 22, 2013 - another manning fight

I'm locking this thread because it has become a personal squabble.

Too personal

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Several posts have been removed from this thread.  Honestly we are running out of ways to ask people to take responsibility for their role in these fights around manning.

 

Most who post here have no problem steering clear of these sorts of squabbles

 

 

Moving forward we will be issuing warnings

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He did, but for what reason? It wasn't to sign a big name FA. If I recall it was to keep players that we already had because we overpaid them. While it is commendable to help cover up the FO mistakes, it's just not the same thing. Brady volunteered to do this so they could get Moss, and then he did it again this year to get Brandon Lloyd. I feel like Brady restructures his deal all the time for the team.

 

Do you understand the mechanics of a player restructuring his contract? Not trying to be condescending, just asking.

 

A lot of people think that when Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger or whoever agrees to restructure their contract, they're "giving money back." They are not. They're still making the same money. Sometimes more. It's not an unselfish act. It's a procedural change in the way they get paid for that season.

 

If Brady has a $10m base salary, he is going to receive that salary in 17 equal checks over the course of the season. The team can convert most of that into a signing bonus, and Brady will receive $9m up front, and the remaining $1m in 17 equal checks over the course of the season. It's the same $10m. The difference is that the $9m that's converted into a bonus doesn't hit the team's payroll all in one season; it's spread out evenly over the remaining years of the contract. The effect is that Brady's cap hit for that year is reduced. Most players would prefer to get that $9m up front, and practically jump at the opportunity to restructure their contract. But it also increases the player's cap hit in subsequent years.

 

Manning did that a couple times here, at least.

 

What the team does with those cap savings is not up to the player. It's interesting that you would question Manning's motives to restructure, while praising another player doing the same thing. The team asks you restructure to create more cap space, and you say yes, almost invariably. You get more money up front, and the team hopefully can put more players around you.

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Do you understand the mechanics of a player restructuring his contract? Not trying to be condescending, just asking.

 

A lot of people think that when Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger or whoever agrees to restructure their contract, they're "giving money back." They are not. They're still making the same money. Sometimes more. It's not an unselfish act. It's a procedural change in the way they get paid for that season.

 

If Brady has a $10m base salary, he is going to receive that salary in 17 equal checks over the course of the season. The team can convert most of that into a signing bonus, and Brady will receive $9m up front, and the remaining $1m in 17 equal checks over the course of the season. It's the same $10m. The difference is that the $9m that's converted into a bonus doesn't hit the team's payroll all in one season; it's spread out evenly over the remaining years of the contract. The effect is that Brady's cap hit for that year is reduced. Most players would prefer to get that $9m up front, and practically jump at the opportunity to restructure their contract. But it also increases the player's cap hit in subsequent years.

 

Manning did that a couple times here, at least.

 

What the team does with those cap savings is not up to the player. It's interesting that you would question Manning's motives to restructure, while praising another player doing the same thing. The team asks you restructure to create more cap space, and you say yes, almost invariably. You get more money up front, and the team hopefully can put more players around you.

 

Yes I understand restructuring, and I know that they player still gets paid the same amount.

 

There is a difference between the team asking you to restructure, and you volunteering a restructure so they can go out and get X player, maybe i'm looking into it wrong, but when Moss went to New England it was made out to be that the Patriots were on the fence, and Brady told them that he would restructure to get him in so they would have the cap space.

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Yes I understand restructuring, and I know that they player still gets paid the same amount.

There is a difference between the team asking you to restructure, and you volunteering a restructure so they can go out and get X player, maybe i'm looking into it wrong, but when Moss went to New England it was made out to be that the Patriots were on the fence, and Brady told them that he would restructure to get him in so they would have the cap space.[/

quote]

They traded for moss, they didn't sign him as a fa

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They traded for moss, they didn't sign him as a fa

 

ok? What is the point?

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Yes I understand restructuring, and I know that they player still gets paid the same amount.

 

There is a difference between the team asking you to restructure, and you volunteering a restructure so they can go out and get X player, maybe i'm looking into it wrong, but when Moss went to New England it was made out to be that the Patriots were on the fence, and Brady told them that he would restructure to get him in so they would have the cap space.

 

What's the difference?

 

First of all, what makes anyone think that restructuring was Brady's idea?

 

Beyond that, compare the differences in the two franchises. The Colts were never in the running for Randy Moss, or any other notable free agent, because Polian was allergic to free agency. And whether Brady "volunteered" or not, both he and Manning (and a host of other players around the league) have repeatedly shown a willingness to restructure a contract in order to accommodate the cap space needs of their team.

 

Taking it a step further, both players actually have left money on the table during contract negotiations. Manning could have demanded $100m in 2011, after Irsay had declared of his own volition that Manning would be the highest paid player in the league, but wound up taking $90m. That move provided the team with more cap space in 2011, and it turns out that Polian squandered it. That's not Manning's fault, though; he left money on the table, to his credit.

 

Brady took a slightly below market contract in 2005, and the goal was for the team to use that cap space to put quality players around him. They didn't really do anything of the sort that year, even letting Deion Branch walk. That speaks more to Brady's willingness to restructure two years later, having subpar receivers like Reche Caldwell to throw to in the interim.

 

Brady deserves credit for the things his done in the name of helping the team. But it's double-talk to praise him while talking down about Manning, when he's done the exact same thing himself.

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What's the difference?

 

First of all, what makes anyone think that restructuring was Brady's idea?

 

Beyond that, compare the differences in the two franchises. The Colts were never in the running for Randy Moss, or any other notable free agent, because Polian was allergic to free agency. And whether Brady "volunteered" or not, both he and Manning (and a host of other players around the league) have repeatedly shown a willingness to restructure a contract in order to accommodate the cap space needs of their team.

 

Taking it a step further, both players actually have left money on the table during contract negotiations. Manning could have demanded $100m in 2011, after Irsay had declared of his own volition that Manning would be the highest paid player in the league, but wound up taking $90m. That move provided the team with more cap space in 2011, and it turns out that Polian squandered it. That's not Manning's fault, though; he left money on the table, to his credit.

 

Brady took a slightly below market contract in 2005, and the goal was for the team to use that cap space to put quality players around him. They didn't really do anything of the sort that year, even letting Deion Branch walk. That speaks more to Brady's willingness to restructure two years later, having subpar receivers like Reche Caldwell to throw to in the interim.

 

Brady deserves credit for the things his done in the name of helping the team. But it's double-talk to praise him while talking down about Manning, when he's done the exact same thing himself.

 

I recall that on ESPN they were talking about how Brady volunteered to restructure the deal because he wanted Moss and blah blah back in the day.

 

To the rest of your post, I understand. Maybe the Patriots front office are the ones really deserving the credit here, but the way these things have gone down, it just feels like Brady has done more for his team, maybe it's the same way that Fox News makes the Republicans look good and MSNBC the Democrats. ESPN headquarters is pretty close to the heart of NE patriots territory. lol

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I seriously doubt anyone on the Patriots forum was bashing Andrew Luck after we lost to the Ravens.

Nope but wanna bet that there was Manning bashing?...and isnt that the root of all the hate between these two teams?

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Nope but wanna bet that there was Manning bashing?...and isnt that the root of all the hate between these two teams?

But...Manning plays for the Broncos. Why should you guys react with 10,000 Brady bashing threads when the Patriots probably didn't have a single AL bashing thread?

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But...Manning plays for the Broncos. Why should you guys react with 10,000 Brady bashing threads when the Patriots probably didn't have a single AL bashing thread?

 

Because we hate the Patriots?

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Because we hate the Patriots?

There's more to it than that. Heck when you guys lost there weren't threads degrading 12, Arians, or Pagano on the Texans Message Board, and we don't like you guys very much either.

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There's more to it than that. Heck when you guys lost there weren't threads degrading 12, Arians, or Pagano on the Texans Message Board, and we don't like you guys very much either.

 

I think the thread that were started on here were meant for the Pat trolls on the NFL General board that had been hyping up Brady and calling Manning a choker.

 

Not to mention that there's a difference between the Colts-Pats rivalry and the Colts-Texans Rivalry. The Colts and Pats play for playoff spots. Other than the last 2 years the Colt-Texans match up determined which of the top 5 picks Houston had in the draft.

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I think the thread that were started on here were meant for the Pat trolls on the NFL General board that had been hyping up Brady and calling Manning a choker.

 

Not to mention that there's a difference between the Colts-Pats rivalry and the Colts-Texans Rivalry. The Colts and Pats play for playoff spots. Other than the last 2 years the Colt-Texans match up determined which of the top 5 picks Houston had in the draft.

But it's the same mentality. Texans didn't like the Colts because they beat them a lot and the Colts don't like the Patriots because...

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But it's the same mentality. Texans didn't like the Colts because they beat them a lot and the Colts don't like the Patriots because...

 

The Colts-Texans rivalry is nowhere close to the one we have with the Pats. We played for Super Bowls and first round byes.

 

Plus it's kind of hard for the Texans to develop a rivalry with a certain team when they spend their whole history losing to other teams anyway. It's not like it was only the Colts beating them.

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Theres no shame in losing to a team that went to the Superbowl. (both colts and broncos)

 

BOTH TEAMS LOST TO THE RAVENS BECAUSE OF A KEY INJURY.

 

Moreno got hurt and that was game. Too many missed blocks in the 2nd half.

 

Gronk got hurt before the game and that was game.

 

The colts lost because of sub par play not injuries.

 

Lets not bring the Texans into this because they're not a rivalry to us....well maybe now with Luck...but not even close when Manning was here. 17-3 isn't even a blip on my radar.

 

Silent HIll...its time to change your avatar....You have a Peyton Manning won SB ring as an avatar but in your signature you have Luck > Manning. So far lucks Playoff stats are pretty abysmal and in his one regular season he barely played better than Mark Sanchez...so yea.

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Lets not bring Luck into this...his performance was abysmal and I haven't said a word about it.

 

What was abysmal about it? The receivers combined for 9 dropped passes. It was one of his best games of the season.

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The Colts-Texans rivalry is nowhere close to the one we have with the Pats. We played for Super Bowls and first round byes.

 

Plus it's kind of hard for the Texans to develop a rivalry with a certain team when they spend their whole history losing to other teams anyway. It's not like it was only the Colts beating them.

Tell that to the Dolphins, Bengals among others...And if you played for Super Bowls, I'm pretty sure Tom Terrific has you guys beat terribly in that department.

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What was abysmal about it? The receivers combined for 9 dropped passes. It was one of his best games of the season.

I edited my post to avoid this drama.

but man you guys smell out a negative comment from 1000 posts and are like Heat seaking missles.

 

Its always dropped passes and a bad O line..... sure. whatever you want.

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Tell that to the Dolphins, Bengals among others...And if you played for Super Bowls, I'm pretty sure Tom Terrific has you guys beat terribly in that department.

so you a colts fan now? you have reggie wayne as an avatar but you are saying "you guys". confused.

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3 TDs, 8 INTs in last 3 AFCCG, Brady won 2 of them, lost the third.

 

Football is a team game, fellas. If you went after Peyton, you have to go after Brady, i.e. if you are objective :)

Hey dont be so real! Brady is clutch and we just give excuses for Peyton

 

Brady is also 6-7 in postseason since his last sb win, which by coincidence is around the time the D went south.

 

im not saying he sucks im saying this supports the whole notion of teams win

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I edited my post to avoid this drama.

but man you guys smell out a negative comment from 1000 posts and are like Heat seaking missles.

 

Its always dropped passes and a bad O line..... sure. whatever you want.

But 12 can do no wrong. Ask Tebow, he's the next Chosen One.

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so you a colts fan now? you have reggie wayne as an avatar but you are saying "you guys". confused.

I would never be a Colts fan. Lost a bet my friend.

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