Kelly’s replacement

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

AR definitely needs that as well if that's the case 

Given that both NASCAR and Indy Car through independent studies over twenty years ago discovered that the added weight of a helmet can increase the violence of a whiplash and that was a cause of a majority of their concussions, im wondering if this motion also is a factor in the NFL. We often see the whiplash motion of the head and neck during violent tackles. Furthermore if it is, why league couldn’t develop some sort of neck/head support to prevent it that doesn’t interfere with the motion needed to play? 
 

 

[DougDew]

36 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Yeah I agree. It would most likely be on the draft. I do think Pinter could be a longer term answer though. You don’t really need to draft a center high.  There could be a FA out there too who Steichen likes. Maybe wanting to get his own guy.

To your previous comment.  I agree that LT is the most important oline position, but I think C is probably second most, followed closely by RT.  Relying upon younger player/later draft picks I think is another form of being cheap with the needed investment.

[DougDew]

21 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Given that both NASCAR and Indy Car through independent studies over twenty years ago discovered that the added weight of a helmet can increase the violence of a whiplash and that was a cause of a majority of their concussions, im wondering if this motion also is a factor in the NFL. We often see the whiplash motion of the head and neck during violent tackles. Furthermore if it is, why league couldn’t develop some sort of neck/head support to prevent it that doesn’t interfere with the motion needed to play? 
 

 

Force = Mass x Acceleration.   The whiplash cause the acceleration.  Force is enhanced when there is a massive body traveling at the same speed that an otherwise smaller body is traveling.

 

Its also why its very possible that a 255 pound QB might be more susceptible to injury when he hits the ground than a 215 pound QB.

[csmopar]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Force = Mass x Acceleration.   The whiplash cause the acceleration.  Force is enhanced when there is a massive body traveling at the same speed that an otherwise smaller body is traveling.

 

Its also why its very possible that a 255 pound QB might be more susceptible to injury when he hits the ground than a 215 pound QB.

Yep it makes total sense. 

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Yep it makes total sense. 

Sure, compare AR to Stroud or Mahomes body types.  AR is probably 40 pounds heavier.

 

Forget weird tackles, hard hits...to the knees. etc.  But just routine tackles when the player hits the ground.  Body weight matters.

 

Take your own body and hit the ground often,  Then strap a 40 pound sand bag to one side and hit the ground on your other side.  More damage?  I would think so.

 

I think olineman hitting the ground has got to be a bad thing for their bodies.....more so than a Josh Downs for example.

[csmopar]

5 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Sure, compare AR to Stroud or Mahomes body types.  AR is probably 40 pounds heavier.

 

Forget weird tackles, hard hits...to the knees. etc.  But just routine tackles when the player hits the ground.  Body weight matters.

 

Take your own body and hit the ground often,  Then strap a 40 pound sand bag to one side and hit the ground on your other side.  More damage?  I would think so.

 

I think olineman hitting the ground has got to be a bad thing for their bodies.....more so than a Josh Downs for example.

I agree. It makes total sense. 

[Defjamz26]

I’d get a center from FA. If not you can draft one late. Center isn’t like LT where you need to spend a premium pick on one. Yes we have Pinter, but we’ve seen the issues with not having competition and depth at certain positions. Even if Kelly is back you need to bring someone else in. 

[BlackTiger]

Premature for this.  He is 30 and signed through next year and we usually bring in oline pretty often.  He may even come back for more

[csmopar]

19 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

Premature for this.  He is 30 and signed through next year and we usually bring in oline pretty often.  He may even come back for more

Possibly but I think it’s a higher chance he retires now that prior. We shall see

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Force = Mass x Acceleration.   The whiplash cause the acceleration.  Force is enhanced when there is a massive body traveling at the same speed that an otherwise smaller body is traveling.

 

Its also why its very possible that a 255 pound QB might be more susceptible to injury when he hits the ground than a 215 pound QB.

To your last sentence, that could be very true. Sounds funny but maybe AR should trim down to around 235 pounds. He would probably even be faster if he did that. 235 is still large.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I do think he will finish his contract and be back next season to finish his career.

[Superman]

23 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

It looks like Minshew has a helmet that lets the pressure out during a blow to the head and that seems more appropriate to me more should use it. 

 

There are a lot of helmets out there these days. I think the bottom line is if you take a forcible blow to the head, you're probably going to have concussion symptoms, no matter what kind of helmet you're wearing.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To your last sentence, that could be very true. Sounds funny but maybe AR should trim down to around 235 pounds. He would probably even be faster if he did that. 235 is still large.

He probably needs to take full advantage of the NFL's weight training, conditioning, and nutrition programs.  Just speculating, but natural athlete's tend to not do that as much as other college other players.  Its possible that he came into the NFL not quite as ready to play in that regard.

[csmopar]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He probably needs to take full advantage of the NFL's weight training, conditioning, and nutrition programs.  Just speculating, but natural athlete's tend to not do that as much as other college other players.  Its possible that he came into the NFL not quite as ready to play in that regard.

I could see that and I could see that being a reason for the changes that occur for most players in year two

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I could see that and I could see that being a reason for the changes that occur for most players in year two

I can see the difference in Raimann's body as he plays.  Of course, I think his training also was about gaining some weight.  Not necessarily the direction all players should take.

 

I believe many players have managed to reduce their body fat while also gaining muscle mass but maintaining or losing weight.  

[Solid84]

18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

He probably needs to take full advantage of the NFL's weight training, conditioning, and nutrition programs.  Just speculating, but natural athlete's tend to not do that as much as other college other players.  Its possible that he came into the NFL not quite as ready to play in that regard.

I hope the shoulder injury won’t hinder S&C too much. If that drags out he could miss a lot of the offseason. 

[DougDew]

1 minute ago, Solid84 said:

I hope the shoulder injury won’t hinder S&C too much. If that drags out he could miss a lot of the offseason. 

Exactly my thoughts.  To the extent that he could benefit from S&C training, the injury and rehab is going to put him behind in getting started on the full NFL program he may need.

[superrep1967]

7 hours ago, Superman said:

 

There are a lot of helmets out there these days. I think the bottom line is if you take a forcible blow to the head, you're probably going to have concussion symptoms, no matter what kind of helmet you're wearing.

I actually do agree with you. I just thought it might a little more is all

[Patrick Miller]

I think he retires. We’ll be okay.

[Superman]

2 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

I actually do agree with you. I just thought it might a little more is all

 

Yeah I get it. I think the helmets are probably all really good these days. 

[lollygagger8]

21 hours ago, csmopar said:

Given that both NASCAR and Indy Car through independent studies over twenty years ago discovered that the added weight of a helmet can increase the violence of a whiplash and that was a cause of a majority of their concussions, im wondering if this motion also is a factor in the NFL. We often see the whiplash motion of the head and neck during violent tackles. Furthermore if it is, why league couldn’t develop some sort of neck/head support to prevent it that doesn’t interfere with the motion needed to play? 
 

 

 

Bill Simpson (Simpson racing and a leader of safety technology) used to come to Colts games all the time because he was good friends with Tom Moore. We would go out after games and hang with Tom and Bill (Bill sat in the row in front of us) and he was always trying to come up with stuff for helmets and trying to make the game more safe for players. That man had some amazing stories! 

[jchandler7]

Pinter = Kelly's replacement 

[JMichael557]

Zach Frazier WVU is really good. We could get him in the 3rd. 

 

ProFootballFocus scouts currently have Zach Frazier ranked as the No. 2 center in the country and No. 87 player overall, putting him squarely in the third round of the 2024 NFL Draft. CBSSports lists Frazier as the No. 2 interior offensive lineman in the country and No. 103 player overall, putting him in the late third or early fourth round. 

The three experts at ESPN - Mel Kiper Jr., Jordan Reid, and Matt Miller - all think very highly of Frazier as well. While none of the three put draft rounds on him (or any player for that matter), they all put Frazier in their top five centers in the country. Miller had him at No. 4, Kiper had him at No. 3, and Reid had him at No. 1. 

[csmopar]

5 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

Bill Simpson (Simpson racing and a leader of safety technology) used to come to Colts games all the time because he was good friends with Tom Moore. We would go out after games and hang with Tom and Bill (Bill sat in the row in front of us) and he was always trying to come up with stuff for helmets and trying to make the game more safe for players. That man had some amazing stories! 

Yep the world lost a good one when he died the other year

[jimmy g]

On 11/15/2023 at 11:00 PM, Superman said:

 

Yeah I get it. I think the helmets are probably all really good these days. 

Quite the advancement since I played H.S. In 69-71. Then the helmet was a piece of plastic with a rubber strip snapped in the front, back, and top. Passed down from year to year.   As the Center, I pushed a fat kid onto the Guard next to me, and the Guard’s helmet broke in half. 

[AKB]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:47 AM, csmopar said:

Given that both NASCAR and Indy Car through independent studies over twenty years ago discovered that the added weight of a helmet can increase the violence of a whiplash and that was a cause of a majority of their concussions, im wondering if this motion also is a factor in the NFL. We often see the whiplash motion of the head and neck during violent tackles. Furthermore if it is, why league couldn’t develop some sort of neck/head support to prevent it that doesn’t interfere with the motion needed to play? 
 

 

but are they saying there's more for driving? 

 

because of course the added weight of driving with a helmet would be more unnatural than driving without one, however in the case of football peoples heads are being bashed around on each other, and the ground. 

 

so not quite sure the comparison works out here

[csmopar]

11 hours ago, AKB said:

but are they saying there's more for driving? 

 

because of course the added weight of driving with a helmet would be more unnatural than driving without one, however in the case of football peoples heads are being bashed around on each other, and the ground. 

 

so not quite sure the comparison works out here

Don’t know. I’m just saying it’s worth looking at is all

[AKB]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

Don’t know. I’m just saying it’s worth looking at is all

yeah, disagree. 

 

football players bash their heads against other 300-pound men, drivers deal with back-and-forth G forces from turning. 

 

it is not the same at all. 

 

unlerss you're gonna say the helmets and pads should be removed, and then we add flags onto people and make it flag football, but the helmets in NASCAR causing increased concussions does not translate to a physical head on head sport. 

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, AKB said:

yeah, disagree. 

 

football players bash their heads against other 300-pound men, drivers deal with back-and-forth G forces from turning. 

 

it is not the same at all. 

 

unlerss you're gonna say the helmets and pads should be removed, and then we add flags onto people and make it flag football, but the helmets in NASCAR causing increased concussions does not translate to a physical head on head sport. 

You are completely missing my point. Absolutely the helmets and pads have to stay. I’m not saying remove them at all. I’m saying that the league should take a look at the whiplash like motion of players heads when tackled. That has been shown to cause concussions in other sports not limited to NASCAR. Not every concussion is caused by the turf or a hit to the head. Ogletree is an example of that, no evidence of his head hitting the turf or another player was shown. Same with Ryan Kelly. 

 

The reason I cited NASCAR is their study showed that upon impact in a crash, a majority of their concussions at the time came from said whip lash motion. Now obviously there is a HUGE difference in a 3000 pound race car hitting a concrete wall at 200 mph and a 300 pound DT hitting an RB at 22 mph. But if you go and watch the tackles in slow motion m, you can often see a players head whiplashing in similar motion to that of the slow motion replays of the NASCAR study. Now again, the velocity and G forces are no where near the same,  but what I am wondering is if that motion even at the speed of football tackles, is a contributing factor to concussions.  I wouldn’t be surprised to find that concussions on the OL and DL are more often caused by this. 
 

 

Again, all I’m saying is I wonder if the league has looked at this and what they found if anything. I’m not advocating for any changes, more asking a question about a theory and proposing that the league should give it a look. Then, IF it is an issue, develop a way to help reduce it via equipment upgrades

[AKB]

5 hours ago, csmopar said:

You are completely missing my point. Absolutely the helmets and pads have to stay. I’m not saying remove them at all. I’m saying that the league should take a look at the whiplash like motion of players heads when tackled. That has been shown to cause concussions in other sports not limited to NASCAR. Not every concussion is caused by the turf or a hit to the head. Ogletree is an example of that, no evidence of his head hitting the turf or another player was shown. Same with Ryan Kelly. 

 

The reason I cited NASCAR is their study showed that upon impact in a crash, a majority of their concussions at the time came from said whip lash motion. Now obviously there is a HUGE difference in a 3000 pound race car hitting a concrete wall at 200 mph and a 300 pound DT hitting an RB at 22 mph. But if you go and watch the tackles in slow motion m, you can often see a players head whiplashing in similar motion to that of the slow motion replays of the NASCAR study. Now again, the velocity and G forces are no where near the same,  but what I am wondering is if that motion even at the speed of football tackles, is a contributing factor to concussions.  I wouldn’t be surprised to find that concussions on the OL and DL are more often caused by this. 
 

 

Again, all I’m saying is I wonder if the league has looked at this and what they found if anything. I’m not advocating for any changes, more asking a question about a theory and proposing that the league should give it a look. Then, IF it is an issue, develop a way to help reduce it via equipment upgrades

i understand all of that, but not sure what the finishing point is. whiplash is just a term used to explain the snapping back and-forth motion of the head. when the head is snapped back and forth in any quick motion, the brain moves at a delay and then smacks into the skull inside the head. 

 

this is what is happening when players hit their head on the ground, or get hit so hard by another player that their head moves in discontinuity with the body. whiplash is just forceful back-and-forth movement of the head, and so if at the end of that movement, they also smack it into something, its still whiplash. 

 

get what I'm saying? so in the end, you are saying has the league looked at players smacking their heads on things, I'm sure they have. given all the rule changes, but what's the end solution? to not have people's head snap back and forth is to remove contact, and it just won't happen

[csmopar]

10 minutes ago, AKB said:

i understand all of that, but not sure what the finishing point is. whiplash is just a term used to explain the snapping back and-forth motion of the head. when the head is snapped back and forth in any quick motion, the brain moves at a delay and then smacks into the skull inside the head. 

 

this is what is happening when players hit their head on the ground, or get hit so hard by another player that their head moves in discontinuity with the body. whiplash is just forceful back-and-forth movement of the head, and so if at the end of that movement, they also smack it into something, its still whiplash. 

 

get what I'm saying? so in the end, you are saying has the league looked at players smacking their heads on things, I'm sure they have. given all the rule changes, but what's the end solution? to not have people's head snap back and forth is to remove contact, and it just won't happen

Not always ending in contact with something. Say a player gets stood up and hit hard, his head whip lashes and can still cause a concussion without his helmet or head actually making contact.

 

as for an end solution, I don’t know. Honestly. I’m just speculating. NASCAR went with a head and neck support but I don’t think that would work for football or any other sports. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating getting rid of contact. I’m just wondering if something could be built into the helmet or pads to help reduce the whip lash like motion is all

[AKB]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

Not always ending in contact with something. Say a player gets stood up and hit hard, his head whip lashes and can still cause a concussion without his helmet or head actually making contact.

 

as for an end solution, I don’t know. Honestly. I’m just speculating. NASCAR went with a head and neck support but I don’t think that would work for football or any other sports. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating getting rid of contact. I’m just wondering if something could be built into the helmet or pads to help reduce the whip lash like motion is all

i hear you, im just basically saying there's no way to stop it, even flag football has this issue because people are moving at high speeds

 

the only solution would be to have them walk, and use flags. 

[csmopar]

11 hours ago, AKB said:

i hear you, im just basically saying there's no way to stop it, even flag football has this issue because people are moving at high speeds

 

the only solution would be to have them walk, and use flags. 

I don’t think there is either. Just thinking it’s worth looking at IF they haven’t, which they probably have

[BeanDiasucci]

On 11/15/2023 at 10:08 AM, DougDew said:

Force = Mass x Acceleration.   The whiplash cause the acceleration.  Force is enhanced when there is a massive body traveling at the same speed that an otherwise smaller body is traveling.

 

Its also why its very possible that a 255 pound QB might be more susceptible to injury when he hits the ground than a 215 pound QB.

There's a study of NFL player injuries that supports the idea of larger players at a given position being somewhat more likely to be injured than smaller players at that postion. The study is discussed in this article:   https://www.hogshaven.com/2019/6/22/18658887/understanding-injuries-in-the-nfl-part-3#:~:text=The TL%3BDR,stadium-level factors.

 

Its findings include:

• Injury history is strongly correlated with future injury risk.
• Multiple injuries to the same part of the body carry a 10-15% increased risk of missing time due to injury in the following season unless they are upper extremity bone/joint injuries.
• Even players with an extensive injury history have a roughly 40% chance of playing 16 games.
• Smaller players are slightly less likely to get injured than larger players, although this effect is not nearly as important as their usage, position group, and injury history in determining injury risk. 
• Overall, player-level factors are far more important in determining injury risk than team/coach-level factors and stadium-level factors.