QB Sneak (Philly Style)

[coltsfeva]

    I was wondering how people felt about the “tush push” QB sneak that the Eagles have been doing.

     There seems to be three trains of thought:

1. It’s akin to the flying wedge and should be outlawed before somebody breaks a neck or back.

 

 2. It’s a great idea and should be kept legal. If you don’t like it, stop it!

 

 

  3. Modify it to make it safer and more fair.

 

Moderators - if someone can turn this into a pole, I’d appreciate it. (For some reason, I can’t create poles).

 

For me, it’s # 3

 

I think it should be modified somehow (only one player can push the qb).

 

[coltsva]

Before the draft I would have voted #1. Now I vote #2. 

 

Seriously though, for me, the problem lies in the forward progress rule. IMO, as soon as forward progress is stopped, blow the whistle.

Right now it's: Forward progress is stopped, player keeps fighting for yards, if he breaks free he keeps going, if he gets pushed back the ball is moved up to where forward progress first stopped. Do this on the QB sneak and half the time the guys pushing in the back will be too late to the pile and irrelevant. 

[csmopar]

31 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

    I was wondering how people felt about the “tush push” QB sneak that the Eagles have been doing.

     There seems to be three trains of thought:

1. It’s akin to the flying wedge and should be outlawed before somebody breaks a neck or back.

 

 2. It’s a great idea and should be kept legal. If you don’t like it, stop it!

 

 

  3. Modify it to make it safer and more fair.

 

Moderators - if someone can turn this into a pole, I’d appreciate it. (For some reason, I can’t create poles).

 

For me, it’s # 3

 

I think it should be modified somehow (only one player can push the qb).

 

Really not sure it’s akin to the flying wedge. Nor do I think it’s all that different than any other QB or goal line up the middle call. I just think the eagles were just better at it than anyone and more consistent 

[NewColtsFan]

Back during an off-season owners meeting, the buzz was it should be banned.   Then, much to the surprise of most everyone, it wasn’t.  
 

The thought back then was to do it for safety reasons.   That someone on defense was going to get seriously hurt.   But I never heard the reasons why that wasn’t outlawed.   I’ll try and do some research and see if I can find out….

 

[DougDew]

When Philly lines up Hurts and the two RBs the way they do, its a QB sneak, and they make no attempt (yet) to run any other sort of play off of that.  They advertise what they are going to do, and challenge the Dline to counter the play with a equal stacking of beef. 

 

I contend, why even have Hurts in there.  Just have another olineman take the snap, and instead of two RBs that just push, why not have two backup OTs push.  And then, since spreading out the D is irrelevant in that play, just replace the Wrs with two more backup olinemen, or d linemen if you run out of olinemen by now, and push with 4 players instead of two.

 

Then to counter the O, the D can put 7 guys in a mob just like a big rugby scrum.

 

Wow, what an exciting play.

 

And if it can go for 4 yards, do it every play and make FDs as you move down the field.  Or maybe, there might be one half of the scrum winning over the other like a back and forth tug of war.

 

What an exciting game football might become to watch. 

 

Since the Qbs these days can't throw the ball very well, I suppose leg strength and squat-lifting is going to be more important for NFL Qbs.  What fun.

 

OTOH, the NFL could just make it illegal to push another player...like it should be enforced....and then that Rugby type of play would be relegated to the game of Rugby.   Or to other sports where forward passing skills are secondary.

 

If the NFL doesn't ban it, then they are pretty much telegraphing what kind of Qb they want to play more in the NFL (but will weasel away from admitting it).  Giving fans like me the finger.  I'll probably take their invite to stop watching football if that play is allowed to become more prevalent in the NFL.  

 

[NewColtsFan]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Back during an off-season owners meeting, the buzz was it should be banned.   Then, much to the surprise of most everyone, it wasn’t.  
 

The thought back then was to do it for safety reasons.   That someone on defense was going to get seriously hurt.   But I never heard the reasons why that wasn’t outlawed.   I’ll try and do some research and see if I can find out….

 

So I did a search….   And it appears there wasn’t nearly enough interest in voting it down from enough teams.   One report said only 9 teams were clearly no votes.  
 

And the competition committee reportedly had zero interest in supporting even taking a vote either way.   So it’s legal for 2023, and the league says they will monitor any injuries that occur from this.   
 

Look for all 32 teams to use Tush Push a LOT!    It may only last one year,  this will probably get revisited again next March. 
 

[BlackTiger]

I dont get why people have such a problem with this.  Its just the offense pushing a pile and it can happen on all kinds of plays

 

If they banned it would they make it so offensive players cant push a pile anymore?  I think that would be dumb.  It would meant the defense wins any play where a pile forms or the O would get a penalty for pushing back

[NewColtsFan]

20 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

I dont get why people have such a problem with this.  Its just the offense pushing a pile and it can happen on all kinds of plays

 

If they banned it would they make it so offensive players cant push a pile anymore?  I think that would be dumb.  It would meant the defense wins any play where a pile forms or the O would get a penalty for pushing back

Some NFL execs are very concerned that a player is going to get seriously hurt, like a broken neck or paralysis in one of these.  
 

These scrums are not like some normal 4th and 1 QB sneak that has been run since the NFL was invented. 

[stitches]

As long as it is legal, I say use it and abuse it until the league outlaws it or your opponents start stopping you. Exploit until they adjust.

 

I don't have strong feelings about whether it should or shouldn't be legal. 

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, BlackTiger said:

I dont get why people have such a problem with this.  Its just the offense pushing a pile and it can happen on all kinds of plays

 

If they banned it would they make it so offensive players cant push a pile anymore?  I think that would be dumb.  It would meant the defense wins any play where a pile forms or the O would get a penalty for pushing back

Because the play has a mass of 5 bodies all pushing together with the ball carrier in the middle.  The only way for the defense to stop it is to dive at the legs of the front bodies, or counter with the Rugby looking mass of 5 bodies opposite.

 

The NFL makes rules about how many players need to be on the LOS.  The principal is that American football is generally a horizontal alignment across the field, not a vertical alignment or a ball of meat mass moving through the defense.

 

IMO, if you can run a play where an olineman can carry the ball from snap and be pushed by two others, it takes the QB and RBs out of the game.  The fact that Philly thinks about it narrowly and still leaves the Qb and RBs in to run it, is just the first step of an evolution of this play.  When another team figures out to take out the skill players and install 5 to 6 olinemen to form a ball of bodies that is even stouter than Philly's version, people will see how that play doesn't fit the spirit of the American game. 

[richard pallo]

Personally I don’t care for the play.  No skill required.  Just brute strength.  It’s a boring play imo.  Hopefully they get rid of it after this season.

[BlackTiger]

21 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

These scrums are not like some normal 4th and 1 QB sneak that has been run since the NFL was invented. 

It may not be exactly like that specifically but its not that uncommon for a RB to run into a crowd on some random play and for both sides to push the pile

 

I just dont see what they can do about this rule wise without coming out and saying offense can no longer push a pile but defense can?  

[BlackTiger]

17 hours ago, DougDew said:

Because the play has a mass of 5 bodies all pushing together with the ball carrier in the middle.  The only way for the defense to stop it is to dive at the legs of the front bodies, or counter with the Rugby looking mass of 5 bodies opposite.

I think its tricky to make a rule against this.  They would have to say offense can no longer push a pile but defense still can?

 

What if a rb hits a pile midfield?  his team mates can no longer push him but the defense can?  thats always been part of the game

[DougDew]

I thought there has always been a rule against helping the runner.  Pushing is helping.  The enforcement of that rule seems to have morphed into allowing pushing, but not more blatant help.  You know, a player can't grab the ball carrier by the arm and throw him across the line.  Pushing used to also be illegal, years or decades ago, IIRC.

 

Still, most of those pushing situations is where there is already a scrum, and a player enters the pile late.  I think usually, the player is arguing that he is engaging one of the defenders and not pushing the backside of the runner. 

 

The play in question is a push as designed.  Its evolved from the play where the RB lined up in his normal position and pushed the QB, or a TE in motion crashed in behind the QB.  Now, they just skip the deception and line up in a way that everybody knows its a push play.  Like I said, its going to evolve into something else, IMO, because the play now is an evolution of the less obvious push play that was never enforced as illegal. 

[jvan1973]

40 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

I think its tricky to make a rule against this.  They would have to say offense can no longer push a pile but defense still can?

 

What if a rb hits a pile midfield?  his team mates can no longer push him but the defense can?  thats always been part of the game

The defense can push him back 30 yards but the ball still goes back to where forward progress was stopped

[Mitch Connors]

1 hour ago, BlackTiger said:

I think its tricky to make a rule against this.  They would have to say offense can no longer push a pile but defense still can?

 

What if a rb hits a pile midfield?  his team mates can no longer push him but the defense can?  thats always been part of the game

 

I see where you're coming from as the game is today but this rule was in place until the NFL and NCAA changed it a handful of years ago. It used to be no offensive player was allowed to push or pull a teammate forward anywhere or anytime (this is the rule that USC broke with the Bush Push). When you have the ball in your hands you're on your own and nobody on your team can push or pull you forward or its a penalty. 

 

Pretty easy to enforce if they want to but I get the feeling they don't want to change the rules again and enforce them. 

[BlackTiger]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

The defense can push him back 30 yards but the ball still goes back to where forward progress was stopped

sometimes they push back and forth too, usually not that far but its not uncommon.  I dont see them making a rule saying you cant push on a ball carrier all because of this

[BlackTiger]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

The enforcement of that rule seems to have morphed into allowing pushing, but not more blatant help.

 

i looked it up after reading these comments.  in 2005 they changed the rule about assisting a ball carrier to now allow pushing.  I guess it wouldnt be that hard to change it back but to me that seems like a big rule to change over this

 

As to why Philly uses Hurts, i think its because he is just good at at.  They could probably find someone bigger but he is the one with all the practice reps taking snaps and running for the goal line.  I think its about having practice and consistency as opposed to finding the biggest runner

[Chrisaaron1023]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:21 PM, DougDew said:

When Philly lines up Hurts and the two RBs the way they do, its a QB sneak, and they make no attempt (yet) to run any other sort of play off of that.  They advertise what they are going to do, and challenge the Dline to counter the play with a equal stacking of beef. 

 

I contend, why even have Hurts in there.  Just have another olineman take the snap, and instead of two RBs that just push, why not have two backup OTs push.  And then, since spreading out the D is irrelevant in that play, just replace the Wrs with two more backup olinemen, or d linemen if you run out of olinemen by now, and push with 4 players instead of two.

 

Then to counter the O, the D can put 7 guys in a mob just like a big rugby scrum.

 

Wow, what an exciting play.

 

And if it can go for 4 yards, do it every play and make FDs as you move down the field.  Or maybe, there might be one half of the scrum winning over the other like a back and forth tug of war.

 

What an exciting game football might become to watch. 

 

Since the Qbs these days can't throw the ball very well, I suppose leg strength and squat-lifting is going to be more important for NFL Qbs.  What fun.

 

OTOH, the NFL could just make it illegal to push another player...like it should be enforced....and then that Rugby type of play would be relegated to the game of Rugby.   Or to other sports where forward passing skills are secondary.

 

If the NFL doesn't ban it, then they are pretty much telegraphing what kind of Qb they want to play more in the NFL (but will weasel away from admitting it).  Giving fans like me the finger.  I'll probably take their invite to stop watching football if that play is allowed to become more prevalent in the NFL.  

 

um yeah... this lol 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, BlackTiger said:

 

i looked it up after reading these comments.  in 2005 they changed the rule about assisting a ball carrier to now allow pushing.  I guess it wouldnt be that hard to change it back but to me that seems like a big rule to change over this

 

As to why Philly uses Hurts, i think its because he is just good at at.  They could probably find someone bigger but he is the one with all the practice reps taking snaps and running for the goal line.  I think its about having practice and consistency as opposed to finding the biggest runner

He's good at it, why, because he has elite squat-lifting ability.  Not much different than an olineman that gets a lot of practice taking snaps.   

 

I think the play is suspiciously too much about Hurts, and not about two RBs legally being able to push a runner as a called and designed/intended play.   Again, in 2005, the rule changed because pushing happened idiosyncratically in-the-moment as sort of a player reaction.  Hard to enforce in those situations, as they say..* Happens. 

 

My issue is the intent presnap design aspect of it that changes the game a bit too much for my liking..

 

 

[John Hammonds]

This reminds me of a thing that happened in laser tag many years ago.  The goal of the game was to work your way through the maze and through your opponents to the enemy base, and shoot their base target directly above you.  Anyone who gets hit, their laser gun ceased functioning, and they had to go back to their base to recharge.

 

Some folks came up with an ingenious plan.  They gathered in a bunch, and moved through the maze.  The outer people got hit, and their guns wouldn't fire.  But the innermost person could never be hit.  They were protected by all of their "dead" teammates.  And they just went to the enemy base, and that person shot upwards to win.

 

All of it was completely within the rules.  But it busted the game.

 

Will this Philly QB Sneak play bust the game?  Maybe.  But the competition committee needs to give teams a chance to find the kryptonite to this new Superman play.  And if the kryptonite works, without getting anyone badly hurt, then problem solved.  It's a competition thing.  If not, then it's a rules thing, and will need to be addressed.

[sb41champs]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:33 AM, csmopar said:

Really not sure it’s akin to the flying wedge. Nor do I think it’s all that different than any other QB or goal line up the middle call. I just think the eagles were just better at it than anyone and more consistent 

I concur