Indianapolis Colts Are Huge Winners From Carson Wentz Trade

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Agree. With a defense that is tied for 1st in TOs and TO differential...and a possible MVP at RB, the Colts are 9-7, which is a fringe playoff team. That's the kind of performance it takes to carry lower QB play. But it seems like a waste to not be able to maximize those team performances. And you really can't even count on having those types of performances year to year.  

 

 

Agree. We haven't seen him fail in the playoffs, so we can't say he won't perform well. But part of the problem too is that we haven't seen him succeed either. He has never even played in the playoffs, aside from a handful of snaps. If you don't have a Mahomes or Wilson type QB (who plays well in the playoffs immediately), then it is ideal to have a young QB get that playoff experience early in his career, so he can grow from it. 

 

But Wentz is getting that experience at age 29. Better late than never I suppose.

 

 

His numbers seem to be very similar to 2019. But the lack of accuracy the past few games is really hard to ignore. On the flip side, it probably served those INT numbers pretty well all year, especially early on when those deep throws were drawing DPIs.

 

The stats started to regress around midseason (after the NYJ game). Interestingly, JB also had a 2nd half slide...though far more egregious because he's a far lesser QB than Wentz. But in both instances, Reich really started to limit the passing attempts. Will next season really be better...or are we seeing signs of what is to come?

We are 17th in pass defense regarding giving up yards. Nobody will win a SB doing that. We need to be top 10.  Turnovers have saved our defense and makes us look better than we are. I hope we continue to create turnovers because we can't stop the pass in crucial situations - see yesterday and the Ravens game, etc.. When it is even 3rd and 10, I can't watch and that says a lot unfortunately.

[luv_pony_express]

2 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is a fair and reasonable post. Wentz has to prove he can be 'that guy'. I have him on the good level but very good or great he isn't so I agree with most of what you posted. Luck was very good, Peyton was great.

Either way, our wagon is hitched to him for the foreseeable future.  So let’s just hope that he can improve, recognize and reduce his mistakes, etc.

 

And I also have to add that a passing game isn’t all about the QB.  We also must have receivers getting open, who catch balls they should catch, good pass pro up front, good blocking from backs, etc.

 

It’s not all on him.  But what is on him, IS on him.

[BlackTiger]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 Besides, if we make the playoffs this year and three more, because it’s the norm, then I’ll consider the trade a big success.

You think we are spoiled because we want more than playoff appearances, that is the college/Stanford fan in you coming through

 

Every NFL fan base wants more than that, all of them.  No nfl fan base is happy with just playoff appearances, including the ones you listed yesterday.  They all melt down too when they realize they dont have what it takes to make a run 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, luv_pony_express said:

Either way, our wagon is hitched to him for the foreseeable future.  So let’s just hope that he can improve, recognize and reduce his mistakes, etc.

 

And I also have to add that a passing game isn’t all about the QB.  We also must have receivers getting open, who catch balls they should catch, good pass pro up front, good blocking from backs, etc.

 

It’s not all on him.  But what is on him, IS on him.

26 TD's, 6 INT's and 3400 yards passing = good season. Not great like we want but I will take that since we have JT.

[shasta519]

6 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Wentz has thrown for 3373 Yards, 26 TD's, and only 6 INT's. Hurts has thrown for 3174 Yards and 16 TD's and 9 INT's. Both can run well too so even by the eye test anyone can see Wentz is better. Both teams are 9-7 so they are even in win shares. Name me one thing Hurts is better at? 

 

Hurts is far better at running the football. He averages 5.6 yds/carry (vs. 3.7 for Wentz), has nearly 600 more rushing yards and 9 more TDs on the ground. Hurts running the ball takes away from his passing attempts and passing TDs.

 

I guess it's subjective to what people look for in a QB, but production-wise, it's pretty close overall: 

 

Hurts - 3,900+ yards total, 26 TDs, 9 INTs, 9 Fs 

Wentz - 3,600 yards, 27 TDs, 6 INTs, 7 Fs

 

I don't think anyone would argue that Hurts is a better passer right now though. But Hurts is also playing his first full season and is younger than Wentz was when he was a rookie. I think there is definitely upside there.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Wentz is better than Hurts and many say Wentz isn't the guy because of the loss yesterday but Wentz can win a SB. People saying Wentz isn't the guy, they can't name me 15 QB's that are better. Great QB's like Peyton don't grow on trees nor do the Luck's  

 

I won't say the colts can't get to a super bowl with Wentz but there are a Slew of young hot shot QB's that will stand in the way in the playoffs that are better passers. I don't think there's one potential playoff opponent that you can say they have the inferior QB to Wentz... in fact the truth it's the opposite if we face KC, Buffalo,. Chargers, Bengals, Jackson etc...

Of course the team without the superior QB can win big games and WE CAN TOO  but it's a bit more difficult if your QB has the potential to be a liability rather than a big asset.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

You think we are spoiled because we want more than playoff appearances, that is the college fan in you coming through

 

Every NFL fan base wants more than that, all of them.  No nfl fan base is happy with just playoff appearances, including the ones you listed yesterday.  They all melt down too when they realize they dont have what it takes to make a run 

Only 1 team can win a SB so I never expect that, making the playoffs is still a good season regardless. If winning a SB is what people are banking on every year then 99% of the time they will walk away disappointed. I want to win the SB like everyone else but if we make the playoffs and win a game or so that shows me we can beat anyone and is great for the future.

[BlackTiger]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Only 1 team can win a SB so I never expect that, making the playoffs is still a good season regardless. If winning a SB is what people are banking on every year then 99% of the time they will walk away disappointed. I want to win the SB like everyone else but if make the playoffs and win a game or so that shows me we can beat anyone and is great for the future.

my problem is i dont think we can with wentz, i know you see it differently 

 

A stanford fan will always take just making the postseason though...

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

You guys realize two things can be true at same time. Wentz and coaching staff have things to improve on next year . Ballard has a offense to fix with players. That doesn’t mean these things aren’t fixed next season. You don’t throw Wentz out when there are clearly things that need fixed.  You guys are acting like things can’t be fixed. 
 

We wouldn’t even be having this convo if Wentz and the oline didn’t get hurt in camp. We would of clinched a week or two ago.

 

The fact you all want to throw him away the first season is kind of hillarious. You should of realized year two is where it’s at.

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

Hurts is far better at running the football. He averages 5.6 yds/carry (vs. 3.7 for Wentz), has nearly 600 more rushing yards and 9 more TDs on the ground. Hurts running the ball takes away from his passing attempts and passing TDs.

 

I guess it's subjective to what people look for in a QB, but production-wise, it's pretty close overall: 

 

Hurts - 3,900+ yards total, 26 TDs, 9 INTs, 9 Fs 

Wentz - 3,600 yards, 27 TDs, 6 INTs, 7 Fs

 

I don't think anyone would argue that Hurts is a better passer right now though. But Hurts is also playing his first full season and is younger than Wentz was when he was a rookie. I think there is definitely upside there.

How is Hurts a better passer? Wentz has a 62.6% completion %, Hurts is at 61.2%. your whole post lost me with Hurts is a better passer. Wentz is better in every major category and they have the same record.

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

We are 17th in pass defense regarding giving up yards. Nobody will win a SB doing that. We need to be top 10.  Turnovers have saved our defense and makes us look better than we are. I hope we continue to create turnovers because we can't stop the pass in crucial situations - see yesterday and the Ravens game, etc.. When it is even 3rd and 10, I can't watch and that says a lot unfortunately.

 

I agree that the passing defense needs to better...and that their overall performance is propped up by TOs. But I don't know about it preventing them from winning a SB.

 

Here are the recent SB teams and how they ranked in passing yards allowed (winner in bold):

 

2016 - ATL (28), NE (12)

2017 - PHI (17), NE (30)

2018 - LAR (14), NE (22)

2019 - SF (1), KC (8)

2020 - KC (14), TB (21)

 

KC in 2019 is the only team in the top 10 to win the SB in the past 5 years. QB play and passing offense is so pivotal to getting to the SB.

[shasta519]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

How is Hurts a better passer? Wentz has a 62.6% completion %, Hurts is at 61.2%. your whole post lost me with Hurts is a better passer. Wentaz is better in every major category and they have the same record.

 

The whole post was about Hurts running the football haha. I said I don't think anybody could argue that Hurts is the better passer right now. But that he has upside in the passing game, even if he obviously doesn't have Wentz's arm.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I agree that the passing defense needs to better...and that their overall performance is propped up by TOs. But I don't know about it preventing them from winning a SB.

 

Here are the recent SB teams and how they ranked in passing yards allowed (winner in bold):

 

2016 - ATL (28), NE (12)

2017 - PHI (17), NE (30)

2018 - LAR (14), NE (22)

2019 - SF (1), KC (8)

2020 - KC (14), TB (21)

 

KC in 2019 is the only team in the top 10 to win the SB in the past 5 years. QB play and passing offense is so pivotal to getting to the SB.

Every team you mentioned were better than us statistically that won it all except the Pats in 2018. Last season the Bucs gave up a lot yards but in the playoffs you couldn't pass on them - see the SB because of their pass rush.

[DEColtsLover36]

32 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Wentz has thrown for 3373 Yards, 26 TD's, and only 6 INT's. Hurts has thrown for 3174 Yards and 16 TD's and 9 INT's. Both can run well too so even by the eye test anyone can see Wentz is better. Both teams are 9-7 so they are even in win shares. Name me one thing Hurts is better at? 

Thanks for the stats, like I said I really don’t follow individual stats too well so was just wondering how you came to your conclusion. I personally don’t see Wentz as automatically better than Hurts through eye test, I think they are pretty close in comparison especially with the stats given by you and @shasta519 but we can definitely agree to disagree.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, shasta519 said:

 

The whole post was about Hurts running the football haha. I said I don't think anybody could argue that Hurts is the better passer right now. But that he has upside in the passing game, even if he obviously doesn't have Wentz's arm.

Nice save but I like you, in no way is Hurts better than Wentz lol and you know it.He has better rushing stats, ok. Hurts is above average though. 

1 minute ago, DEColtsLover36 said:

Thanks for the stats, like I said I really don’t follow individual stats too well so was just wondering how you came to your conclusion. I personally don’t see Wentz as automatically better than Hurts through eye test, I think they are pretty close in comparison especially with the stats given by you and @shasta519 but we can definitely agree to disagree.

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

And he's also about 20M cheaper per year for 4 years. Oh, And I'd rather have Fields with Reich for those 4 years than Wentz... 

 

Well….   Reich and Ballard made the same calculation as you.   And they strongly disagree.  

[ColtV]

17 minutes ago, stitches said:

BTW we will continue being in bad position to draft a QB in the foreseeable future too. No 1st this year, likely good roster with picks in the late teens or early 20s in the future. If we want to draft a rookie QB high we will need to be aggressive in the draft to do it. I just don't see this happening with Wentz on the roster. IMO the most likely scenario is we ride it out with him for the next 3 years until his contract is up. 

AND....if the Colts were to draft a qb high(either 2nd round this year or 1st round 2023)...well we know Wentz didn't react well when that happened in Philly. If they were to draft a qb either in 2022 or 2023 it would have to be supplemented with adding offensive weapons(mainly another receiver and tight end). 

[2006Coltsbestever]

@stitcheswhat the hell has Fields proven? You are a great poster in here but in enlighten me like I am 7 yr old?

[shasta519]

31 minutes ago, Les Poulains said:

That's a great point. How can anyone be so sure of Wentz' competence to be a franchise QB, given those things? It's mind-boggling. He has absolutely everything to prove still. He's proven precisely nothing yet, mostly riding the coat-tails of an elite running back and playmaking defense thus far. At the very least, let's see him play well in a playoff game, if we even get there, before making the proclamation of being some kind of "winners" when we traded high picks for him.

 

Agree...I don't see how people can make such declarations. I have had my reservations about the trade and the Wentz experiment, but I still need to wait to see how this year ends before seriously judging the trade, Wentz and his future here. And it might even take two years. I am not crazy about the last part, but that is the path it seems. I do hope they add some weapons this offseason.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

If we had Fields, Mac Jones, Hurts, Lawrence for that matter we would not be 9-7, no way. Jones is good because he has BB.

[NewColtsFan]

21 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

You think we are spoiled because we want more than playoff appearances, that is the college/Stanford fan in you coming through

 

Every NFL fan base wants more than that, all of them.  No nfl fan base is happy with just playoff appearances, including the ones you listed yesterday.  They all melt down too when they realize they dont have what it takes to make a run 

It’s not the college/Stanford fan in me.   It’s the guy who covered sports for 30 years who fully understands that only one team wins it all every year.  So in the NFL that means there are 31 teams with unhappy fan bases.   Of course fans want more, I get that. 

 

But if you’re going to be unhappy because you don’t win a Super Bowl, the odds are overwhelming you’ll be miserable because the odds are so small against every given team, every year. 
 

You’re free to do what you want, but personally, I don’t want to be a miserable fan. When my favorite team loses,  I’m disappointed, especially if we under perform. But we didn’t lose to a bad team yesterday.  Yes, Wentz didn’t play well, I get that.  But on balance,  he’s played well enough to get us into the playoffs for his first year.   As a fan, given the badly damaged goods he was a year ago, I’ll take that.
 

I think Wentz can and will be better in the future.   Sure, I could be wrong.   So could fans who think he’s as good as he’s ever going to be and will never be better.   I try to be both an optimist and a realist at the same time.   Makes being a fan a little easier.  
 

Not only do I think Wentz will be better, I think the Colts will be better next year.  As a fan, I won’t be satisfied with a Wild Card spot.   I think we can and will win the AFC South.  That’s my goal for this team in 2022.   If we do that,  I’ll take my chances in the post-season.  

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, ColtV said:

The only person who thought Darnold to the Colts would have been an excellent move was Colin Cowherd...which pretty much cemented the fact that it was a bad idea for everyone else. 

 

Cowherd is a WC guy...he just can't help himself when it comes to PAC 12 QBs.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If we had Fields, Mac Jones, Hurts, Lawrence for that matter we would not be 9-7, no way. Jones is good because he has BB.

Jones probably would be good with Reich. He would do a lot of the same stuff rivers did last season.  But I don’t think our defense is as good as NE. 

[ColtV]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

If people are freaking out over Wentzs play, what would they be doing with Fields'? 58.9% completion, 7 TD's and 10 INT's.  

He would have been in a much better situation here, but his numbers certainly wouldn't have matched Wentz production in year one. I think Fields has been put in a bad situation because 1) Chicago is a qb graveyard 2) Chicago has a coach who almost certainly had zero interest in drafting a qb in the first round in a year where he is desperate to win. But as stated earlier, the Colts couldn't have waited until draft night to hope that one of the qb's fell out of the top 10 to then put together a deal to trade up with Eason the only qb under contract. 

[BlackTiger]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 So in the NFL that means there are 31 teams with unhappy fan bases.   Of course fans want more, I get that. 

you call us a "bad fan base" year after year for being like every other nfl fan base

 

You toe the line of the forums rules while taking shots at us but dont like it when we do it back to you.  Time to chill out on that, i commented because you did quite a lot of that yesterday 

 

I might get push back on this but a playoff appearance isnt that special when 14 out of 32 teams make it. I do think the stanford fan in you sets low goals and takes it out on us for being NFL fans (you will deny this though)

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Jones probably would be good with Reich. He would do a lot of the same stuff rivers did last season.  But I don’t think our defense is as good as NE. 

Yeah I still don't think we would be 9-7 but fair point.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah I still don't think we would be 9-7 but fair point.

The only thing I will say about Jones and why I didn’t want him is where is his ceiling. Can he be more then a game manager. He is a rookie so BB has handled him well. But I need to see how his career goes and can he be that guy when things are on the line.

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

It’s not the college/Stanford fan in me.   It’s the guy who covered sports for 30 years who fully understands that only one team wins it all every year.  So in the NFL that means there are 31 teams with unhappy fan bases.   Of course fans want more, I get that. 

 

But if you’re going to be unhappy because you don’t win a Super Bowl, the odds are overwhelming you’ll be miserable because the odds are so small against every given team, every year. 
 

You’re free to do what you want, but personally, I don’t want to be a miserable fan. When my favorite team loses,  I’m disappointed, especially if we under perform. But we didn’t lose to a bad team yesterday.  Yes, Wentz didn’t play well, I get that.  But on balance,  he’s played well enough to get us into the playoffs for his first year.   As a fan, given the badly damaged goods he was a year ago, I’ll take that.
 

I think Wentz can and will be better in the future.   Sure, I could be wrong.   So could fans who think he’s as good as he’s ever going to be and will never be better.   I try to be both an optimist and a realist at the same time.   Makes being a fan a little easier.  
 

Not only do I think Wentz will be better, I think the Colts will be better next year.  As a fan, I won’t be satisfied with a Wild Card spot.   I think we can and will win the AFC South.  That’s my goal for this team in 2022.   If we do that,  I’ll take my chances in the post-season.  

Our fan base is completely spoiled, they won't admit it though. I even take wins for granted like yesterday I thought we would win. I was wrong. We have made the playoffs 75% of the time over the last 20 years and won a SB. That is amazing but some in here love to complain over dumb crap. We have had QB's like Peyton, Luck, and Rivers and some still aren't happy. I guess we need Mahomes for people to be happy 

[shasta519]

27 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Nice save but I like you, in no way is Hurts better than Wentz lol and you know it.He has better rushing stats, ok. Hurts is above average though. 

 

Save? I just summarized the exact post I wrote haha. I never said anything about Hurts being a better passer...just a better rusher.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[stitches]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Well….   Reich and Ballard made the same calculation as you.   And they strongly disagree.  

well not really. They didn't know they could have Fields for that price... they didn't know they could have him at all. They knew they could have Wentz and he was quite possibly the best option that was readily available. I understand that choice and it was my 2nd favorite option too at the time. 

[BlackTiger]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Our fan base is completely spoiled

How are we spoiled? they have one playoff win since 2014

 

one super bowl in my life, there is nothing wrong with wanting more.  This is what every nfl fan base does 

[stitches]

19 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

@stitcheswhat the hell has Fields proven? You are a great poster in here but in enlighten me like I am 7 yr old?

Not very much, but he's just starting his career. And he's playing at about the same level as a rookie as Wentz is playing as a 5-6 years vet. You don't take a rookie QB high for his rookie year, you take him for the next 10-15 hopefully. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, BlackTiger said:

How are we spoiled? they have one playoff win since 2014

 

one super bowl in my life, there is nothing wrong with wanting more.  This is what every nfl fan base does 

We are spoiled, you left out the rest of my quote. Yeah we have only won 1 SB ask the Vikings, Chargers, and Bills how that feels or Dan Marino and Barry Sanders? I want more too but we need to calm down after 1 loss.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

Not very much, but he's just starting his career. And he's playing at about the same level as a rookie as Wentz is playing as a 5-6 years vet. You don't take a rookie QB high for his rookie year, you take him for the next 10-15 hopefully. 

Show me how is he playing better than Wentz ("same level")? Wentz has 26 TD's/6 INT's, and 3400 yards passing. We are 9-7 which is good.

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Show me how is he playing better than Wentz? Wentz has 26 TD's/6 INT's, and 3400 yards passing. We are 9-7 which is good.

We are back to raw stats out of context and team record. The same stats made the same people defend Jacoby Brissett until we started losing. Frank is extremely good drawing great production from mediocre and subpar QBs. I didn't say Fields was playing better than Wentz. He's probably playing slightly worse, but very comparable IMO. I don't think we'd be much different team with Fields this year... and we'd have better future IMO. 

[BlackTiger]

I dont see how NCF was confused by my post

 

It was pretty clear and to the point.  you have been taking shots at us for years

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

We are back to raw stats out of context and team record. The same stats made the same people defend Jacoby Brissett until we started losing. I didn't say he was playing better than Wentz. He's probably playing slightly worse, but very comparable IMO.

JB doesn't have near those stats in 2019 and you know it, weak argument. Also Wentz can throw the deep ball when needed. Come on man, you are better than this.

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Show me how is he playing better than Wentz ("same level")? Wentz has 26 TD's/6 INT's, and 3400 yards passing. We are 9-7 which is good.

Yeah, Fields is playing nowhere near where Wentz is playing this year.   58.9% completions, 7 TD's, 10 INTS.   He does rush for 35 yards a game, but has 12 fumbles. 

[stitches]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

JB doesn't have near those stats and you know it, weak argument. Also Wentz can throw the deep ball when needed. Come on man, you are better than this.

Jacoby had about the same stats as Wentz when we were 5-2 and people were defending him the same way. I think Wentz is better than Brissett for the record. But people are using the same arguments to justify Wentz' poor play - TEAM win record, TD/INT ratio, etc.