Colts in PFF's Top 32 position ranks heading into 2021 (if you don't like PFF, don't click lol)

[EastStreet]

 

 

Interesting tidbits

• Fisher not in the top 32 of 32 best OTs entering 2021
• Glow was 25th in OG (L and R included). Not bad at all for a "weak link". I've said for a few years now, he's the best weak link in the NFL.
• Kelly only 9 (does not shock me at all). Good, but not matching the pay
• The Colts did not have a top 32 wide receiver (not surprising, but that will likely change after the season with luck from the health gods).
• Doesn't appear that PFF have published ranks for CBs or SAFs. I'll add when they become available.
• Mo graded top 5, but ranked only 22 due to lack of snaps or use.... Hope to see him get a bigger role
• Smith's last 5 games,,, very nice.
• Nice to see Hines get a mention, and nice to have 2 RBs in the top 32. 
• Last year, our RB unit was graded 6 best gong into the year with Mack assumed to be the #1. I expect our unit grade to be at least that or better when it comes out.

 

Ranks are within position

 

1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years.

 

5. DEFOREST BUCKNER, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Buckner was exactly what the Colts were hoping to get when they traded for him prior to the 2020 season, if not more. His 89.6 overall grade this past season was a career-high, ranking fifth among qualifiers on the interior. Buckner ranks third at the position in both sacks (38.0) and quarterback hits (66) since entering the league in 2016. He’ll likely have to shoulder much of the load in 2021 due to a young and unproven edge rotation in Indianapolis.   

 

6. DARIUS LEONARD, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

In three NFL seasons, Darius Leonard doesn’t have a bad PFF grade in any facet of play in any single season, which is a remarkable level of consistency at a position that is routinely exploited by modern offenses. Leonard also has the most forced fumbles of any linebacker since he came into the league (10 including the playoffs).

 

9. RYAN KELLY, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Kelly’s grading profile has never quite matched up with his leaguewide reputation that earned him a record-breaking center contract at the beginning of last season. That doesn’t mean he isn't one of the better centers in the league; he's just not quite in the elite tier. Kelly is the 11th-most valuable center in the league over the past three seasons, per PFF WAR. 

 

13. BRADEN SMITH, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Smith is perhaps one of the more underappreciated players here. He’s manned the Colts' starting right tackle spot since his 2018 rookie campaign, recently establishing himself as one of the top players at the position. He ranks fifth among all right tackles in PFF grade since 2019 and is second to only Ryan Ramczyk over that period in run-blocking grade.

Smith has only gotten better in pass protection, too. He closed out the 2020 season with a red-hot stretch of play in that facet, allowing zero pressures in five of his last six regular season contests. He comes in at No. 12 among tackles in the PFF era when looking at overall grade across one's first three NFL seasons.

 

16. JONATHAN TAYLOR, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
It took him a little while to get rolling, but once he did, we saw how talented Taylor was during his rookie season. The Colts back led all rookies in rushing yards, notching 15 carries of 15 or more yards and 35 carries that went for at least 10 yards.

 

22. MO ALIE-COX, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Alie-Cox did enough last season as part of the Colts tight end rotation to want to see him in a larger role in 2021. His 80.9 PFF grade was a top-five mark at the position on just over 500 snaps on the year. Alie-Cox contributed as both a receiver (2.07 yards per route run) and blocker (79th percentile in positively graded run blocks). He just needs to show similar play in a bigger role again in 2021 to move up the list.    

 

23. CARSON WENTZ, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Wentz led the NFL last season in turnover-worthy plays (24) and didn’t even play after week 14. Can Frank Reich work his magic and get Wentz back to his 2017 form and build his confidence back up? Wentz was on an MVP-caliber tear in 2017 when he earned an overall PFF grade of 84.9 — just behind Drew Brees and 20 grading points higher than his 2020 grade. He was playing lights-out in key situations, with a 91.9 grade on third and fourth downs and a passer rating of 125.0 with 16 touchdowns in those situations. Coaching plays a big role in key situations, so the Colts have some reason to think Wentz will play better under Frank Reich. A tough schedule and erratic big plays in key situations will make for an interesting year.

 

24. JACK DOYLE, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Doyle led the Colts’ three-headed attack at tight end in snaps (596) last season, edging out Alie-Cox and Trey Burton. He falls into the bucket of steady yet unexciting players at the position. Doyle has graded between 69.2 and 75.1 in each of the past seven seasons for Indianapolis. He, along with Alie-Cox, give first-year quarterback Carson Wentz another nice one-two punch at tight end, even if it isn’t quite on par with Ertz and Goedert.  

 

25. MARK GLOWINSKI, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Aided by the players around him, Glowinski has been able to up his game and become a solid member of one of the best offensive lines in the game. Glowinski was capable as both a run-blocker and in pass protection this past season, coughing up just two sacks across 659 pass-blocking snaps with Philip Rivers as his quarterback.

 

27. NYHEIM HINES, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
One of the most fun players to watch in the NFL, Hines may never be a bell cow, but that doesn’t mean he can’t do a little bit of everything for the Colts. Hines broke 20 tackles on 95 carries this season, but he also caught 83.3% of the passes thrown his way.
 

[AwesomeAustin]

Great write up as usual!!  I think we see improvement from players like Wentz Hines and Taylor this year. I will be happy if Wentz can get up in that 11-14 range his first year here. Taylor can probably make a bigger jump.  Those two will determine how dynamic our offense is.  Interested to see where the secondary ranks and if one of our receivers can break into the top 32. 

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Great write up as usual!!  I think we see improvement from players like Wentz Hines and Taylor this year. I will be happy if Wentz can get up in that 11-14 range his first year here. Taylor can probably make a bigger jump.  Those two will determine how dynamic our offense is.  Interested to see where the secondary ranks and if one of our receivers can break into the top 32. 

I think a decent case could be made for Wentz ending up top 10ish given what most believe Reich will do. I'd bet a decent amount his completion % goes way up and efficiency #s are night and day compared to last year.

 

IMO, Mo and Carson will make nice jumps, and we could end up with two WRs in the top 32 by end of year. Taylor I think will creep up a little to around 10-12ish.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I love your title, I clicked because I was just making sure they had Nelson #1, to me that is a no brainer  .

[AwesomeAustin]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I think a decent case could be made for Wentz ending up top 10ish given what most believe Reich will do. I'd bet a decent amount his completion % goes way up and efficiency #s are night and day compared to last year.

 

IMO, Mo and Carson will make nice jumps, and we could end up with two WRs in the top 32 by end of year. Taylor I think will creep up a little to around 10-12ish.

I think it’s very possible for Wentz to end up in the top 10 but I was conservative bc a 10-12 jump in rankings is still impressive.  We can win the division if he plays like a top 12 QB. 
 

Mo hs a chance to be a top 15 TE but I’m taking a wait and see approach.  Plenty of talent.  Maybe he takes over the Doyle role but is a bit more dynamic.  

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I think it’s very possible for Wentz to end up in the top 10 but I was conservative bc a 10-12 jump in rankings is still impressive.  We can win the division if he plays like a top 12 QB. 
 

Mo hs a chance to be a top 15 TE but I’m taking a wait and see approach.  Plenty of talent.  Maybe he takes over the Doyle role but is a bit more dynamic.  

Keep in mind Wentz was 16th in 2019, one spot better than Rivers. That was a step back from 13th in 2018, and of course 2017 when he ranked 5th. 

 

I just think Reich is going to simplify things early for him. And so long as our OL holds, I think he'll do more than fine. And even if Tevi struggles early, you can use a RB or TE, or roll him to the right. I'm a bit afraid of week 2 though lol. At least it's at home!

[twfish]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

 

Interesting tidbits

• Fisher not in the top 32 of 32 best OTs entering 2021
• Glow was 25th in OG (L and R included). Not bad at all for a "weak link". I've said for a few years now, he's the best weak link in the NFL.
• Kelly only 9 (does not shock me at all). Good, but not matching the pay
• The Colts did not have a top 32 wide receiver (not surprising, but that will likely change after the season with luck from the health gods).
• Doesn't appear that PFF have published ranks for CBs or SAFs. I'll add when they become available.
• Mo graded top 5, but ranked only 22 due to lack of snaps or use.... Hope to see him get a bigger role
• Smith's last 5 games,,, very nice.
• Nice to see Hines get a mention, and nice to have 2 RBs in the top 32. 
• Last year, our RB unit was graded 6 best gong into the year with Mack assumed to be the #1. I expect our unit grade to be at least that or better when it comes out.

 

Ranks are within position

 

1. QUENTON NELSON, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
The best of the best, Nelson was seen as a generational prospect at guard when he entered the NFL, and he hasn’t disappointed. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric (PFF WAR), the fourth-year guard has been the league's most valuable player at the position in every season of his career and has surrendered just three sacks in three years.

 

5. DEFOREST BUCKNER, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Buckner was exactly what the Colts were hoping to get when they traded for him prior to the 2020 season, if not more. His 89.6 overall grade this past season was a career-high, ranking fifth among qualifiers on the interior. Buckner ranks third at the position in both sacks (38.0) and quarterback hits (66) since entering the league in 2016. He’ll likely have to shoulder much of the load in 2021 due to a young and unproven edge rotation in Indianapolis.   

 

6. DARIUS LEONARD, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

In three NFL seasons, Darius Leonard doesn’t have a bad PFF grade in any facet of play in any single season, which is a remarkable level of consistency at a position that is routinely exploited by modern offenses. Leonard also has the most forced fumbles of any linebacker since he came into the league (10 including the playoffs).

 

9. RYAN KELLY, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Kelly’s grading profile has never quite matched up with his leaguewide reputation that earned him a record-breaking center contract at the beginning of last season. That doesn’t mean he isn't one of the better centers in the league; he's just not quite in the elite tier. Kelly is the 11th-most valuable center in the league over the past three seasons, per PFF WAR. 

 

13. BRADEN SMITH, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Smith is perhaps one of the more underappreciated players here. He’s manned the Colts' starting right tackle spot since his 2018 rookie campaign, recently establishing himself as one of the top players at the position. He ranks fifth among all right tackles in PFF grade since 2019 and is second to only Ryan Ramczyk over that period in run-blocking grade.

Smith has only gotten better in pass protection, too. He closed out the 2020 season with a red-hot stretch of play in that facet, allowing zero pressures in five of his last six regular season contests. He comes in at No. 12 among tackles in the PFF era when looking at overall grade across one's first three NFL seasons.

 

16. JONATHAN TAYLOR, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
It took him a little while to get rolling, but once he did, we saw how talented Taylor was during his rookie season. The Colts back led all rookies in rushing yards, notching 15 carries of 15 or more yards and 35 carries that went for at least 10 yards.

 

22. MO ALIE-COX, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Alie-Cox did enough last season as part of the Colts tight end rotation to want to see him in a larger role in 2021. His 80.9 PFF grade was a top-five mark at the position on just over 500 snaps on the year. Alie-Cox contributed as both a receiver (2.07 yards per route run) and blocker (79th percentile in positively graded run blocks). He just needs to show similar play in a bigger role again in 2021 to move up the list.    

 

23. CARSON WENTZ, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Wentz led the NFL last season in turnover-worthy plays (24) and didn’t even play after week 14. Can Frank Reich work his magic and get Wentz back to his 2017 form and build his confidence back up? Wentz was on an MVP-caliber tear in 2017 when he earned an overall PFF grade of 84.9 — just behind Drew Brees and 20 grading points higher than his 2020 grade. He was playing lights-out in key situations, with a 91.9 grade on third and fourth downs and a passer rating of 125.0 with 16 touchdowns in those situations. Coaching plays a big role in key situations, so the Colts have some reason to think Wentz will play better under Frank Reich. A tough schedule and erratic big plays in key situations will make for an interesting year.

 

24. JACK DOYLE, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Doyle led the Colts’ three-headed attack at tight end in snaps (596) last season, edging out Alie-Cox and Trey Burton. He falls into the bucket of steady yet unexciting players at the position. Doyle has graded between 69.2 and 75.1 in each of the past seven seasons for Indianapolis. He, along with Alie-Cox, give first-year quarterback Carson Wentz another nice one-two punch at tight end, even if it isn’t quite on par with Ertz and Goedert.  

 

25. MARK GLOWINSKI, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
Aided by the players around him, Glowinski has been able to up his game and become a solid member of one of the best offensive lines in the game. Glowinski was capable as both a run-blocker and in pass protection this past season, coughing up just two sacks across 659 pass-blocking snaps with Philip Rivers as his quarterback.

 

27. NYHEIM HINES, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
One of the most fun players to watch in the NFL, Hines may never be a bell cow, but that doesn’t mean he can’t do a little bit of everything for the Colts. Hines broke 20 tackles on 95 carries this season, but he also caught 83.3% of the passes thrown his way.
 

Appreciate you taking the time to getting this all put together even if I don't agree with PFF lol

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, twfish said:

Appreciate you taking the time to getting this all put together even if I don't agree with PFF lol

my pleasure

[runthepost]

Was Fisher not ranked due to injury? 

[EastStreet]

9 hours ago, runthepost said:

Was Fisher not ranked due to injury? 

It's a prediction entering the 2021 season, so guessing they just think he won't grade well enough. Keep in mind the stack includes both L and R tackles, so they're kinda saying he won't be one of the ~16 best LTs. And frankly I can understand their opinion. His grades last year were good, but 2019 was pretty meh. 2018 wasn't anything special either. He's much better in pass pro than run blocking IIRC, and perhaps they think we'll be run heavy, or that he'll just take time to get back to his previous level.

[427HR]

That was a good read.. I have a sneaky feeling that Bobby okereke could be on that list next year!!

[AwesomeAustin]

18 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Keep in mind Wentz was 16th in 2019, one spot better than Rivers. That was a step back from 13th in 2018, and of course 2017 when he ranked 5th. 

 

I just think Reich is going to simplify things early for him. And so long as our OL holds, I think he'll do more than fine. And even if Tevi struggles early, you can use a RB or TE, or roll him to the right. I'm a bit afraid of week 2 though lol. At least it's at home!

Definitely a tough start in the schedule for Wentz and the Colts. The media will be watching the situation closely and any struggles will probably be blown out of proportion. Hopefully the team can block out the noise. I expect a bland conservative offense at first as everyone  learns to play together. I expect by the time Fisher comes back the offense will start to gel and he will get the credit lol. If there are no major injuries, by season end we should be a team no one wants to face in the playoffs. 

[shasta519]

22 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I think a decent case could be made for Wentz ending up top 10ish given what most believe Reich will do. I'd bet a decent amount his completion % goes way up and efficiency #s are night and day compared to last year.

 

IMO, Mo and Carson will make nice jumps, and we could end up with two WRs in the top 32 by end of year. Taylor I think will creep up a little to around 10-12ish.

I don’t know about a decent case for Wentz. I know he is back with Reich, but even that 2017 season would have only put his stats in the top 5-6 compared to other QBs last season...and therefore probably somewhere around the top 6-7 of the current QB landscape (it’s that good now)
 

As for where he is right now...while I don’t fully agree with PFF’s list, logistically Wentz would have to jump over half of the top 22 QBs in front of him to get to top 10ish (top 12 or better)...even more to get to legit top 10.

 

What 11+ QBs is Wentz going to jump to get there? 

 

Unless we assume he will return to his 2017 level (a big assumption), we can probably can’t even start reasonably counting until QB9. So he has to jump 11/14 of these QBs:

 

9. Matt Ryan - Maybe (would have to really fall off with a new OC and good weapons)

 

10. Baker Mayfield - Not likely (even better situation and was really good last season)

11. Matthew Stafford - Not likely (great situation now with playmakers)

12. Ryan Tannehill - Not likely (unless we just ignore his top 5 stats in TEN)

13. Derek Carr - Maybe (but he has played really well and OAK has some good weapons) 

 

14. Kirk Cousins - Maybe (he’s been really good the past couple of years and has great weapons)

 

15. Justin Herbert - Not likely (should be a second-year stud after a record

rookie season)

 

16. Ben Roethlisberger - Very Likely 

 

17. Kyler Murray - Maybe (not if he improves his passing a bit more from last year...and he’s surrounded by good weapons as well)

18. Joe Burrow - Not likely (similar to Herbert and has fantastic weapons)

 

19. Ryan Fitzpatrick - Likely (though perhaps his late career arch continues and he definitely has the weapons)

 

20. Daniel Jones - Probably (though he could have a year 3 leap and has great weapons)

 

21. Trevor Lawrence - Maybe (but we saw how good Luck was right away and Lawrence has tons of weapons)

 

22. Jimmy Garrapolo - Very likely (doubt he’s even ranked next year)

 

Very Likely - 2

Likely - 2

Maybe - 5

Not Likely - 5

 

By no means scientific, but it just seems like a very tall order to get past 11/14 of those QBs based on where Wentz is now. More than half of the NFL has good QBs, many of which had good seasons and have good weapons too.

 

So I think a decent case can be made for top 15-20. My ultimate question is how much that moves the needle next season.

 

 

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I just have to laugh at this. Sorry. 

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Definitely a tough start in the schedule for Wentz and the Colts. The media will be watching the situation closely and any struggles will probably be blown out of proportion. Hopefully the team can block out the noise. I expect a bland conservative offense at first as everyone  learns to play together. I expect by the time Fisher comes back the offense will start to gel and he will get the credit lol. If there are no major injuries, by season end we should be a team no one wants to face in the playoffs. 

I hate to wish the summer away, but I'm ready for week 1. Totally hyped. 

 

I expect Indy to win week one at home vs Seattle. Early line is Colts by 2.5. Week 2 is another story. Ram's D... And potentially Aaron Donald vs Tevi. Oh mercy. I think playing some tough teams early is good bad. Bad because we likely won't have a LT, have a new QB, etc.. but good because we won't be able to play as conservative as some believe we'll play (like me). And if we can win those first two games, are confidence will be extremely high, and Wentz will feel a bit battle tested. I think it's possible we get away game 1 with a win playing conservative, but we'll likely have to be a bit more opened up in game 2. 

 

I was thinking the same thing a few weeks ago (Fisher will get a lot of credit) a few weeks ago. Really hoping he gets back as early as possible. 4 out of the first five games are huge.

[SteelCityColt]

38 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

I just have to laugh at this. Sorry. 

 

@EastStreet I don't think you could have asked for a more prime example of a blind "PFF Sucks" response, you tried your best with the OP Title. 

23 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I love your title, I clicked because I was just making sure they had Nelson #1, to me that is a no brainer  .

 

Now this... this is how you reply 

[EastStreet]

57 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

I don’t know about a decent case for Wentz. I know he is back with Reich, but even that 2017 season would have only put his stats in the top 5-6 compared to other QBs last season...and therefore probably somewhere around the top 6-7 of the current QB landscape (it’s that good now)
 

As for where he is right now...while I don’t fully agree with PFF’s list, logistically Wentz would have to jump over half of the top 22 QBs in front of him to get to top 10ish (top 12 or better)...even more to get to legit top 10.

 

What 11+ QBs is Wentz going to jump to get there? 

 

Unless we assume he will return to his 2017 level (a big assumption), we can probably can’t even start reasonably counting until QB9. So he has to jump 11/14 of these QBs:

 

9. Matt Ryan - Maybe (would have to really fall off with a new OC and good weapons)

 

10. Baker Mayfield - Not likely (even better situation and was really good last season)

11. Matthew Stafford - Not likely (great situation now with playmakers)

12. Ryan Tannehill - Not likely (unless we just ignore his top 5 stats in TEN)

13. Derek Carr - Maybe (but he has played really well and OAK has some good weapons) 

 

14. Kirk Cousins - Maybe (he’s been really good the past couple of years and has great weapons)

 

15. Justin Herbert - Not likely (should be a second-year stud after a record

rookie season)

 

16. Ben Roethlisberger - Very Likely 

 

17. Kyler Murray - Maybe (not if he improves his passing a bit more from last year...and he’s surrounded by good weapons as well)

18. Joe Burrow - Not likely (similar to Herbert and has fantastic weapons)

 

19. Ryan Fitzpatrick - Likely (though perhaps his late career arch continues and he definitely has the weapons)

 

20. Daniel Jones - Probably (though he could have a year 3 leap and has great weapons)

 

21. Trevor Lawrence - Maybe (but we saw how good Luck was right away and Lawrence has tons of weapons)

 

22. Jimmy Garrapolo - Very likely (doubt he’s even ranked next year)

 

Very Likely - 2

Likely - 2

Maybe - 5

Not Likely - 5

 

By no means scientific, but it just seems like a very tall order to get past 11/14 of those QBs based on where Wentz is now. More than half of the NFL has good QBs, many of which had good seasons and have good weapons too.

 

So I think a decent case can be made for top 15-20. My ultimate question is how much that moves the needle next season.

 

You and I have very different views on the QBs out there and the situations in general per team. 

I see 3-5 guys I'm very confident in, and the rest in various situations were they could range from top 10 to not even top 16. 

 

Wentz is a guy that can make a huge jump. He has a great OL, great running unit, and pretty good pass catching weapons. I think our D will be decent, but our pass D was way over rated last year. In short, our year starts hard, the middle is medium, and the end is easy. I can literally see Wentz being anywhere from as high as 6th to as low as 20th. I could say the same about many of the QBs, but I think Wentz is probably in the best situation to make the biggest jump. Heck, even a guy like Rodgers could end up in a place like Denver or LVR with below average OLs instead of his top 5 OL.... 

 

And just to be clear, I'm not just talking about yards. I'm talking efficiency, QBR, passer rating, etc as well.

26 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

I just have to laugh at this. Sorry. 

insert eye roll.....

 

how about some facts or stats about things you disagree with.... 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

@EastStreet I don't think you could have asked for a more prime example of a blind "PFF Sucks" response, you tried your best with the OP Title. 

 

Now this... this is how you reply 

Yup, his post gave me a big exhale and eye roll moment. 

Oh well, I tried. Now back to my cocktail and the Indy 500. 

 

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup, his post gave me a big exhale and eye roll moment. 

Oh well, I tried. Now back to my cocktail and the Indy 500. 

 

 

Well indeed,  by all means she's entitled to not think much of PFF but at least outline a constructive reason why. It was quite a good convo with @2006Coltsbestever in the other topic about the good/bad of PFF.

[2006Coltsbestever]

18 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Well indeed,  by all means she's entitled to not think much of PFF but at least outline a constructive reason why. It was quite a good convo with @2006Coltsbestever in the other topic about the good/bad of PFF.

I try to keep all convo civil eventhough I may not agree with another poster. I throw my little jabs in there at times like "stink", "goofy", etc.. but I love a good debate. @EastStreetis a very knowledgeable poster, I respect his views so it is easy to keep it civil with him. He doesn't troll and provides a lot of facts. You and @Supermando as well when you believe you are right about something. It is all good.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Well indeed,  by all means she's entitled to not think much of PFF but at least outline a constructive reason why. It was quite a good convo with @2006Coltsbestever in the other topic about the good/bad of PFF.

Yup, I don't mind criticism of rankings at all. I criticize them plenty. 

 

It's just tiresome when the same folks criticize over and over again, and likely have little understanding of the rankings system/process and/or the performance of others that are ranked.

 

And I was hoping some of those folks could at least read the thread title lol.. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Analytics are all good and they can serve as a tool. But it isn’t the end all be all of how good a player is. 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Analytics are all good and they can serve as a tool. But it isn’t the end all be all of how good a player is. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Analytics are all good and they can serve as a tool. But it isn’t the end all be all of how good a player is. 

What separates me from most people, I didn't say ALL people but most is I factor everything in. I am not the type of person that just believes stats only determines how a player should rank. I am not the type of person that just believes only championships won determines how great a player is. Mainly that is regarding QB's when it comes to championships. I factor it all in, Stats, eye test, clutchness of a player - and that is just something you witness, Championships won, MVP's won, longevity of a player - all of it has to be factored in. There is not 1 determining factor where ranking a player is full proof. 

 

If someone just based everything on Stats to determine how great a player is then Drew Brees would be the greatest QB of all-time. If someone just based everything on winning or winning SB Championships, Terry Bradshaw would be the 3rd greatest QB of all-time. You have to factor it all in, plain and simple. We all know Drew Brees isn't the greatest QB ever and Terry Bradshaw is arguably not even top 10 ever.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I am just one of those people I guess that doesn’t care what analytics say if the team is winning and fun to watch. That is all that matters to me.

[SteelCityColt]

23 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

What separates me from most people, I didn't say ALL people but most is I factor everything in. I am not the type of person that just believes stats only determines how a player should rank. I am not the type of person that just believes only championships won determines how great a player is. Mainly that is regarding QB's when it comes to championships. I factor it all in, Stats, eye test, clutchness of a player - and that is just something you witness, Championships won, MVP's won, longevity of a player - all of it has to be factored in. There is not 1 determining factor where ranking a player is full proof. 

 

If someone just based everything on Stats to determine how great a player is then Drew Brees would be the greatest QB of all-time. If someone just based everything on winning or winning SB Championships, Terry Bradshaw would be the 3rd greatest QB of all-time. You have to factor it all in, plain and simple. We all know Drew Brees isn't the greatest QB ever and Terry Bradshaw is arguably not even top 10 ever.

 

Stats/data will not be ever the be all and end all, especially given they've quite often misunderstood and misused. But they can help inform some of the conversations you allude to. That plays in life too. My professional career is data/analysis, of which I spend most of it trying to get people to understand how you apply that to the real world. 

 

But that's what we're really getting at aren't we. A forum, when you get good genuine back and forth is like talking sports with your mates. You'll 'argue' and you'll never see everything the same way. but that's the fun. This guy thinks MVPs is the most important thing, this it's SBs won etc etc. We all have our internal bias for ranking players and that's absolutely normal. I have players I like, despite them being far from the best because you just want to root for them. Take Frank Gore, even before he was a Colt. loved him as a player so I'll always be biased about how good he was. But unlikely to ever grace conversations around the best RB of his generation(s!). 

 

It's more when posters have a this is my opinion and it's right who then refuse to substantiate it, and feel any form of challenge to it must be answered with hell and brimstone. That or ignore anything that doesn't fit with their world view. That lack of critical thinking is fast becoming an issue in the real word, let alone talking about sports!

 

To use a real world example, trying to make a major change to a healthcare service, and like all these things there is politics. One of the best ever things I've had said to me in my career when speaking to the principle person opposing what I was trying to do, is "I don't agree with what you're trying to do, but I do agree with how you trying to do it". 

[SteelCityColt]

3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

I am just one of those people I guess that doesn’t care what analytics say if the team is winning and fun to watch. That is all that matters to me.

 

But cared enough to post a rude reply in a topic where the OP made it clear in the title it was going to be about analytics. 

 

I think that says more about you than it does about the validity of PFF rankings. @EastStreet puts a lot of time and effort in posting things, even if you don't agree with them, at least appreciate he's trying to do things for our community. Same as when you post live updates from OTAs. How would you feel if someone replied in that topic "Sorry, but I just have to laugh at this". 

[2006Coltsbestever]

18 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Stats/data will not be ever the be all and end all, especially given they've quite often misunderstood and misused. But they can help inform some of the conversations you allude to. That plays in life too. My professional career is data/analysis, of which I spend most of it trying to get people to understand how you apply that to the real world. 

 

But that's what we're really getting at aren't we. A forum, when you get good genuine back and forth is like talking sports with your mates. You'll 'argue' and you'll never see everything the same way. but that's the fun. This guy thinks MVPs is the most important thing, this it's SBs won etc etc. We all have our internal bias for ranking players and that's absolutely normal. I have players I like, despite them being far from the best because you just want to root for them. Take Frank Gore, even before he was a Colt. loved him as a player so I'll always be biased about how good he was. But unlikely to ever grace conversations around the best RB of his generation(s!). 

 

It's more when posters have a this is my opinion and it's right who refuse to substantiate it, and feel any form of challenge to it must be answered with hell and brimstone. That or ignore anything that doesn't fit with their world view. That lack of critical thinking is fast becoming an issue in the real word, let alone talking about sports!

 

To use a real world example, trying to make a major change to a healthcare service, and like all these things there is politics. One of the best ever things I've had said to me in my career when speaking to the principle person opposing what I was trying to do, is "I don't agree with what you're trying to do, but I do agree with how you trying to do it". 

Stats are real important but I just wanted to say IMO so are other criteria. Like you, I just have a problem with someone saying it is my way or you are wrong. I have a friend that says championships won are the only thing that matters and it drives me insane. When I bring up Bradshaw he does get quiet a little  . 

 

Regarding Frank Gore, he will make the Hall of Fame, he has too with the amount of yards he has gained, JMO. Curtis Martin made it so Gore will get in.

[SteelCityColt]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stats are real important but I just wanted to say IMO so are other criteria. Like you, I just have a problem with someone saying it is my way or you are wrong. I have a friend that says championships won are the only thing matters and it drives me insane. When I bring up Bradshaw he does get quiet a little  . 

 

Regarding Frank Gore, he will make the Hall of Fame, he has too with the amount of yards he has gained, JMO. Curtis Martin made it so Gore will get in.

Yeah I think Frank will get in, if for his crazy longevity at position which isn't kind to the body. Add in his major injury pre-NFL and it's even more amazing. But honestly, I'm not sure there's more than 1 or 2 seasons I could say he was in the top 5 RBs. That doesn't stop me having him as one of my all time personal faves though.

 

[stitches]

1 hour ago, Wentzszn said:

Analytics are all good and they can serve as a tool. But it isn’t the end all be all of how good a player is. 

Would you be shocked if I told you huge part of what PFF does is actually WATCH every single snap of every single player and grading their performance on every single snap? What people don't seem to understand is that those PFF grades are not some numbers that a computer spits out at them, but is calculated based on actual people watching the players and giving them grades on every play. In other words it's just... standardized and systemized version of the "eye test".

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

But cared enough to post a rude reply in a topic where the OP made it clear in the title it was going to be about analytics. 

 

I think that says more about you than it does about the validity of PFF rankings. @EastStreet puts a lot of time and effort in posting things, even if you don't agree with them, at least appreciate he's trying to do things for our community. Same as when you post live updates from OTAs. How would you feel if someone replied in that topic "Sorry, but I just have to laugh at this". 

 

I think there were always be a % of folks that don't read OPs, or titles, and just hot take. And that's OK lol. Takes all kinds for a board.

 

BTW, I've always dug into stuff. XLS or DOCs off to the side or on another screen to compile stuff for my own knowledge base.  It's a healthy habit. I know some people appreciate it when I share, but also fully aware there will always be the crowd mixed with different types that could care less. I just post it for the folks to enjoy. I actually expect the a few to ignore efforts... It's all good.

 

But thank you sincerely for the acknowledgement. 

 

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Stats are real important but I just wanted to say IMO so are other criteria. Like you, I just have a problem with someone saying it is my way or you are wrong. I have a friend that says championships won are the only thing that matters and it drives me insane. When I bring up Bradshaw he does get quiet a little  . 

 

Regarding Frank Gore, he will make the Hall of Fame, he has too with the amount of yards he has gained, JMO. Curtis Martin made it so Gore will get in.

Stats are just one of several things. Outside of stats, I love sound logic or hypothesis. Folks that bag on the stats rarely provide the alternative. Relative to championships, it's only one data point. I still think Manning was a good as the GOAT (Brady), and would have done just as good had he had the Pat's teams and coaches. Same logic I could extend to the conversation we had on MIller. I just tire of hot takes and adamant statements that don't have sound foundations.

 

2 minutes ago, stitches said:

Would you be shocked if I told you huge part of what PFF does is actually WATCH every single snap of every single player and grading their performance on every single snap? What people don't seem to understand is that those PFF grades are not some numbers that a computer spits out at them, but is calculated based on actual people watching the players and giving them grades on every play. In other words it's just... standardized and systemized version of the "eye test".

I really wish some folks would read on how PFF grades things by position. Most that criticize don't know what they are complaining about. It's very fair to call out things like @Nickster did (on not knowing what the play call is/was), but it's also not not fair to acknowledge the things they do right and all the effort they put in.

 

Side note - I really like where Nextgen is heading though with analytics and sensors. That, combined with eye-on grading, is fantastic. Not end all be all, but great indicators.

[SteelCityColt]

29 minutes ago, stitches said:

Would you be shocked if I told you huge part of what PFF does is actually WATCH every single snap of every single player and grading their performance on every single snap? What people don't seem to understand is that those PFF grades are not some numbers that a computer spits out at them, but is calculated based on actual people watching the players and giving them grades on every play. In other words it's just... standardized and systemized version of the "eye test".

 

I was mulling over reading this can you even call what PFF do analytics? It's a another word that gets badly misused (so is AI!). I mean PFF is systematically grading film, not so much systematically analysing data points as such. 

 

Let's put it another way. posters are quite happy to have trust and faith in the FO scouting team... who watch film and grade prospects in a systematic way weighted by certain aspects they deem more important to positive outcomes. 

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I was mulling over reading this can you even call what PFF do analytics? It's a another word that gets badly misused (so is AI!). I mean PFF is systematically grading film, not so much systematically analysing data points as such. 

 

Let's put it another way. posters are quite happy to have trust and faith in the FO scouting team... who watch film and grade prospects in a systematic way weighted by certain aspects they deem more important to positive outcomes. 

definition of analytics

 

A. the systematic computational analysis of data or statistics.

 

B. information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.

 

PFF fits B.

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

definition of analytics

 

A. the systematic computational analysis of data or statistics.

 

B. information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.

 

PFF fits B.

 

But are they look at data/statistics? They're generating it by subjective grading rather than empirical measurement. Absolutely semantics BTW.

[stitches]

14 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I was mulling over reading this can you even call what PFF do analytics? It's a another word that gets badly misused (so is AI!). I mean PFF is systematically grading film, not so much systematically analysing data points as such. 

 

Let's put it another way. posters are quite happy to have trust and faith in the FO scouting team... who watch film and grade prospects in a systematic way weighted by certain aspects they deem more important to positive outcomes. 

I guess it depends on what you consider analytics. To me it's just some sort of information collected/calculated in a way that can be useful for decisionmakers. In a way their grading is analytics, but it's very much a product of direct observation and analysis of what's happening on the plays. It's a very rudimentary type of analytics, even though it's incredibly time and resources consuming. 

 

They do some advanced analytics too where they do projections(for player performance and for team performance), they have translation models(for example - what translates best from college to the NFL), etc. They have very useful stats that not many others have, but again, most of those are product of direct observation of what's happening and just keeping track, they just put a number on it - for example, I can say Jonathan Taylor is explosive RB based on me watching him, but they can put a number on it - they can tell you how many explosive plays he had last year and how it compared to other RBs, etc. 

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

But are they look at data/statistics? They're generating it by subjective grading rather than empirical measurement. Absolutely semantics BTW.

I would classify their grading as data, which is then pumped into a machine, which is then analyzed.

 

There is no subjective/objective scale when it comes to "data". 

 

Now one could debate the level of subjectiveness or objectiveness, but it's data that's analyzed.

 

It's rare to have something that doesn't have some level of subjectiveness when it comes to analytics. Just a human deciding what data points to include in analysis is a level of subjectiveness. Until we unleash AI on the world, there will always be a level... And then there is still a question of the human subjectiveness that went into to building the AI lol. 

[stitches]

15 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

definition of analytics

 

A. the systematic computational analysis of data or statistics.

 

B. information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.

 

PFF fits B.

They actually fit both in different ways and for different purposes. 

[stitches]

12 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

But are they look at data/statistics? They're generating it by subjective grading rather than empirical measurement. Absolutely semantics BTW.

A lot of it is subjective, but that's not a problem for me as long as it's applied consistently accross their system. For example... what is a contested catch? Does the CB have to be 1 feet away or half a foot away? Or does he need to be draped all over the receiver? A lot of stats require a human to make a determination about how to count the stat. Another example - even the simplest of things - the receiver catches the ball... his feet are at the 40 yard line but his hands are at the 41 yard line. Where do you put that catch for the purposes of air yards and similar stats? It's subjective, whatever the criteria is if it's consistently applied... it doesn't really matter - over long enough sample things will even out.

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, stitches said:

They actually fit both in different ways and for different purposes. 

I agree, but they're process fits B better. Most will see A as more pure data, while B will be seen more as vanilla information. 

 

In short, everything has a human touch, and any human touch has a level of subjective impact. Formulas created have a human touch. The info chosen has a human touch.

 

You can only try to gather the most data or data points you can, and then analyze those data sets without bias. I've had coders and metrics teams reporting to me for a lot of years, and have had to design PM, workflow, and end-to-end software (I'm not a coder, but I've orchestrated the overall process). All of it has some level of human judgement in it, and folks will always try to poke holes in it. You just have to focus on the data, logic, and eliminate as much "human" as possible lol. 

7 minutes ago, stitches said:

A lot of it is subjective, but that's not a problem for me as long as it's applied consistently accross their system. For example... what is a contested catch? Does the CB have to be 1 feet away or half a foot away? Or does he need to be draped all over the receiver? A lot of stats require a human to make a determination about how to count the stat. Another example - even the simplest of things - the receiver catches the ball... his feet are at the 40 yard line but his hands are at the 41 yard line. Where do you put that catch for the purposes of air yards and similar stats? It's subjective, whatever the criteria is if it's consistently applied... it doesn't really matter - over long enough sample things will even out.

boom

[SteelCityColt]

Thank you @EastStreet & @stitches, some good answers there. Consistency is absolutely key.