Franchise QB's

[WifiGuy]

I have read numerous times on this website that JB is a decent QB but not a franchise QB so therefor we must draft a QB this yr . So with that said. I have listed the starting QB's in the NFL and ranked them to how I see them.   So the way I see it there are only 5 teams set at QB with 3 that have a good QB.  So that means there are 19 teams that do not have a franchise QB.  

 

So when some of you are all in for a QB with the 13th pick look at the list. Be honest and predict which ones will actually be franchise QB's and not just in the REST category.

 

The only QB in the 2020 class that I see a true potential franchise QB is Burrows and I think it will take a couple of yrs to get there.  Tua would make thepotential.  Everyone else is just a QB

 

 

Franchise QB's

Lamar JacksonBAL

Patrick MahomesKC

Dak PrescottDAL

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

 

Potential franchise QB's but not there yet

Carson WentzPHI

Kyler MurrayARI

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

 

Aging former franchise QB's who will need to be replaced soon 3 are FA's

Drew BreesNO

Tom BradyNE

Aaron RodgersGB

Philip RiversLAC

Ryan Matt ATL

Newton Cam Car

 

The rest.   

Ryan TannehillTEN

Derek CarrOAK

Matthew StaffordDET

Kirk CousinsMIN

Jameis WinstonTB

Daniel JonesNYG

Baker MayfieldCLE

Jacoby BrissettIND

Jared GoffLAR

Josh AllenBUF

Sam DarnoldNYJ

Gardner Minshew IIJAX

Andy DaltonCIN

Mitchell TrubiskyCHI

Kyle AllenCAR

Mason RudolphPIT

Ryan FitzpatrickMIA

 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

I have read numerous times on this website that JB is a decent QB but not a franchise QB so therefor we must draft a QB this yr . So with that said. I have listed the starting QB's in the NFL and ranked them to how I see them.   So the way I see it there are only 5 teams set at QB with 3 that have a good QB.  So that means there are 19 teams that do not have a franchise QB.  

 

So when some of you are all in for a QB with the 13th pick look at the list. Be honest and predict which ones will actually be franchise QB's and not just in the REST category.

 

The only QB in the 2020 class that I see a true potential franchise QB is Burrows and I think it will take a couple of yrs to get there.  Tua would make thepotential.  Everyone else is just a QB

 

 

Franchise QB's

Lamar JacksonBAL

Patrick MahomesKC

Dak PrescottDAL

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

 

Potential franchise QB's but not there yet

Carson WentzPHI

Kyler MurrayARI

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

 

Aging former franchise QB's who will need to be replaced soon 3 are FA's

Drew BreesNO

Tom BradyNE

Aaron RodgersGB

Philip RiversLAC

Ryan Matt ATL

Newton Cam Car

Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton don't have "age" concerns yet. 

 

4 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

 

The rest.   

Ryan TannehillTEN

Derek CarrOAK

Matthew StaffordDET

Kirk CousinsMIN

Jameis WinstonTB

Daniel JonesNYG

Baker MayfieldCLE

Jacoby BrissettIND

Jared GoffLAR

Josh AllenBUF

Sam DarnoldNYJ

Gardner Minshew IIJAX

Andy DaltonCIN

Mitchell TrubiskyCHI

Kyle AllenCAR

Mason RudolphPIT

Ryan FitzpatrickMIA

 

Several of these guys (The Rest) are good QBs who simply went to bad teams. Some are also young (and on bad teams) so assuming they are not "franchise" QBs is a major jump. 

 

Overall, I think you need to qualify or define your parameters. What is a "franchise QB" is the first thing you need to define. Are you looking at QBR, YPG, AVG, comp%, etc... I hope you're not just looking at just W/Ls, as that's about the weakest definition or criteria you could use.

 

 

[WifiGuy]

5 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton don't have "age" concerns yet. 

 

Several of these guys (The Rest) are good QBs who simply went to bad teams. Some are also young (and on bad teams) so assuming they are not "franchise" QBs is a major jump. 

 

Overall, I think you need to qualify or define your parameters. What is a "franchise QB" is the first thing you need to define. Are you looking at QBR, YPG, AVG, comp%, etc... I hope you're not just looking at just W/Ls, as that's about the weakest definition or criteria you could use.

 

 

Rogers is is 36 3-4 yrs left

Ryan will be 35 this yr  3-4 yrs left

Newton yea he's not aging you are correct, but he is most likely going to be replaced. 

 

As for a franchise QB I look at a QB I would sign and hope he spends the rest of his career in Indy.  Someone that I wouldn't be thinking we should upgrade. He's the guy that makes you believe you are in every game no matter the score. A guy that covers up your other shortcomings on offense and makes everyone else better.   

 

I'm not going to use stats as criteria, but if you think that wins and losses aren't the main definition then we will most certainly disagree.   Bill Belichek says stats are for losers it's wins and losses that count, and I agree with him. 

 

Of the franchise QB's on my list I would easily give up more than 2 firsts for any of them, As for the "rest"category, there maybe 1-2 that I would only give up a 2nd for, and still not be completely sold.

 

 

 

 

[EastStreet]

59 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

Rogers is is 36 3-4 yrs left

Ryan will be 35 this yr  3-4 yrs left

Newton yea he's not aging you are correct, but he is most likely going to be replaced.

Point is, they have time, and the teams aren't looking to replace them due to age. Newton might go somewhere else, but not because of age. 

 

Not sure how these three are relevant at all to any QB quandary the Colts have. All three have been to SBs, and two have had very long careers as "the guy"

59 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

As for a franchise QB I look at a QB I would sign and hope he spends the rest of his career in Indy.  Someone that I wouldn't be thinking we should upgrade. He's the guy that makes you believe you are in every game no matter the score. A guy that covers up your other shortcomings on offense and makes everyone else better.   

 

I'm not going to use stats as criteria, but if you think that wins and losses aren't the main definition then we will most certainly disagree.   Bill Belichek says stats are for losers it's wins and losses that count, and I agree with him.

Bill Belichek is a big reason why they have so many Ws... Put Brady on the Browns or Bengals for the past XX years, and chances are they are still bad in terms of W/Ls..... You'd likely have Brady in "The Rest" list.

 

You say on one hand that you want a "guy that makes you believe you are in every game no matter the score" which means he's highly capable of stats, and not a game manager. On the other hand, you say it's just about wins and not about stats.

 

In short, the supporting cast can have as much or more to do with W/Ls as a QB. There are plenty of quality guys that got ruined by the teams they went to. Burrow could easily go the way of Andy Dalton. Dalton's first 5 years were pretty good, but he finally succumbed to a very bad overall franchise. And guys like Tannehill and Carr, both had great years in 2019 after being on horrible teams in the past.

59 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

Of the franchise QB's on my list I would easily give up more than 2 firsts for any of them, As for the "rest"category, there maybe 1-2 that I would only give up a 2nd for, and still not be completely sold.

Overall, I think you're ignoring reality about QBs in general. Only 1, maybe 2, of your top 5 guys were thought to be "franchise" guys when drafted. That's not a very good hit rate. Actually, there are more "reaches" than projected franchise guys.

 

Lamar JacksonBAL

-Wasn't picked till 32nd. Baltimore didn't even use their 1st pick on him. Many called this pick a reach.

 

Patrick MahomesKC

-Many ESPN and NFL.com talking heads thought 10 was a huge reach. He was seen by most as a "system QB". Was projected by most to be late 1st round to mid 2nd.

 

Dak PrescottDAL

-4th round, 135th overall. Nobody thought he was a franchise guy

 

Russell WilsonSEA

-3rd round 65th pick overall..... 

 

Deshaun WatsonHOU

-Was projected by most as the #1 QB, but was picked 15th behind Trubisky and Mahomes.

[WifiGuy]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Point is, they have time, and the teams aren't looking to replace them due to age. Newton might go somewhere else, but not because of age. 

 

Not sure how these three are relevant at all to any QB quandary the Colts have. All three have been to SBs, and two have had very long careers as "the guy"

Bill Belichek is a big reason why they have so many Ws... Put Brady on the Browns or Bengals for the past XX years, and chances are they are still bad in terms of W/Ls..... You'd likely have Brady in "The Rest" list.

 

You say on one hand that you want a "guy that makes you believe you are in every game no matter the score" which means he's highly capable of stats, and not a game manager. On the other hand, you say it's just about wins and not about stats.

 

In short, the supporting cast can have as much or more to do with W/Ls as a QB. There are plenty of quality guys that got ruined by the teams they went to. Burrow could easily go the way of Andy Dalton. Dalton's first 5 years were pretty good, but he finally succumbed to a very bad overall franchise. And guys like Tannehill and Carr, both had great years in 2019 after being on horrible teams in the past.

Overall, I think you're ignoring reality about QBs in general. Only 1, maybe 2, of your top 5 guys were thought to be "franchise" guys when drafted. That's not a very good hit rate. Actually, there are more "reaches" than projected franchise guys.

 

Lamar JacksonBAL

-Wasn't picked till 32nd. Baltimore didn't even use their 1st pick on him. Many called this pick a reach.

 

Patrick MahomesKC

-Many ESPN and NFL.com talking heads thought 10 was a huge reach. He was seen by most as a "system QB". Was projected by most to be late 1st round to mid 2nd.

 

Dak PrescottDAL

-4th round, 135th overall. Nobody thought he was a franchise guy

 

Russell WilsonSEA

-3rd round 65th pick overall..... 

 

Deshaun WatsonHOU

-Was projected by most as the #1 QB, but was picked 15th behind Trubisky and Mahomes.

Rank them

[Archer]

I really like your point.  A lucky few get a truly franchise QB, and the rest hopefully have a QB they can win with.  

[chad72]

Kirk Cousins, Baker Mayfield, Jameis Winston, Matthew Stafford, and even recently Josh Allen and Ryan Tannehill have shown the potential that they can bring their team back in the regular season when their team is down. Granted, it is harder to do that vs stellar pass Ds like the Patriots and even the Chiefs, whose pass D was better than their run D but I never got that feeling with Jacoby, who I felt had to be a front runner for the most part to help us win. Plus, when he doesn't throw his guys open with anticipation, even if they are not a #1 or #2 WR type of player, it wouldn't matter when he will have a #1 or #2 WR at his disposal because he will still be reliant on throwing it after he sees them open. In a nutshell, the offense will continue to underachieve its potential on YAC (with a #1 or #2 option) or chain movement (with lower tier options). 

 

With Baker, Josh Allen and Tannehill, the sample space is smaller, so time will tell us better. But I have seen enough of Cousins and Stafford to know that they have the capability. Granted, they do not do it consistently as a Russell Wilson or even a Deshaun Watson, but they are knocking on that door out there. Dak Prescott is right there with Kirk Cousins and Matthew Stafford, all of them middle of the pack. Both Dak and Tannehill, with the boot legs that they run, and the run oriented offenses that they are part of, they are good fits for those offenses. You cannot put Brady in a boot leg offense, just like you cannot put Dak in a primarily pocket passing offense all the time, so offensive fit is a huge part of it.

[Dingus McGirt]

7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Point is, they have time, and the teams aren't looking to replace them due to age. Newton might go somewhere else, but not because of age. 

 

Not sure how these three are relevant at all to any QB quandary the Colts have. All three have been to SBs, and two have had very long careers as "the guy"

Bill Belichek is a big reason why they have so many Ws... Put Brady on the Browns or Bengals for the past XX years, and chances are they are still bad in terms of W/Ls..... You'd likely have Brady in "The Rest" list.

 

You say on one hand that you want a "guy that makes you believe you are in every game no matter the score" which means he's highly capable of stats, and not a game manager. On the other hand, you say it's just about wins and not about stats.

 

In short, the supporting cast can have as much or more to do with W/Ls as a QB. There are plenty of quality guys that got ruined by the teams they went to. Burrow could easily go the way of Andy Dalton. Dalton's first 5 years were pretty good, but he finally succumbed to a very bad overall franchise. And guys like Tannehill and Carr, both had great years in 2019 after being on horrible teams in the past.

Overall, I think you're ignoring reality about QBs in general. Only 1, maybe 2, of your top 5 guys were thought to be "franchise" guys when drafted. That's not a very good hit rate. Actually, there are more "reaches" than projected franchise guys.

 

Lamar JacksonBAL

-Wasn't picked till 32nd. Baltimore didn't even use their 1st pick on him. Many called this pick a reach.

 

Patrick MahomesKC

-Many ESPN and NFL.com talking heads thought 10 was a huge reach. He was seen by most as a "system QB". Was projected by most to be late 1st round to mid 2nd.

 

Dak PrescottDAL

-4th round, 135th overall. Nobody thought he was a franchise guy

 

Russell WilsonSEA

-3rd round 65th pick overall..... 

 

Deshaun WatsonHOU

-Was projected by most as the #1 QB, but was picked 15th behind Trubisky and Mahomes.

Prescott is NOT a franchise QB...jmo.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Prescott is NOT a franchise QB...jmo.

I have my doubts too, but he had a very good year. I think he's surrounded by a lot of supporting talent (pass catchers), has great OL protection, and teams simply can't focus on him with EE running. 

7 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

Rank them

If I were to rank them, or group them, I'd set criteria. The primary point is, there's a ton of variables that factor into a QB's success. A guy can have the first five below (internal), and lack one or more from the list of external elements, and they're still not going to succeed. And that's over-simplifying it. All of the elements are a sliding scale more or less.

 

Internal elements

Physical ability

Vision

Processing speed

Football IQ

Decision making / maturity

 

External elements

Franchise quality

Coaching quality

OL quality

Pass catcher quality

Running game (balance)

Defense (If the D stinks, the QB has to play hero ball, if the D is good, they can Jimmy G it).

 

[jchandler7]

Dak Prescott in your top 5 Franchise QB ranking???

I get the point of your thread but have to disagree on that one. 

[throwing BBZ]

16 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

I have read numerous times on this website that JB is a decent QB but not a franchise QB so therefor we must draft a QB this yr . So with that said. I have listed the starting QB's in the NFL and ranked them to how I see them.   So the way I see it there are only 5 teams set at QB with 3 that have a good QB.  So that means there are 19 teams that do not have a franchise QB.  

 

So when some of you are all in for a QB with the 13th pick look at the list. Be honest and predict which ones will actually be franchise QB's and not just in the REST category.

 

The only QB in the 2020 class that I see a true potential franchise QB is Burrows and I think it will take a couple of yrs to get there.  Tua would make thepotential.  Everyone else is just a QB

 

 

Franchise QB's

Lamar JacksonBAL

Patrick MahomesKC

Dak PrescottDAL

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

 

Potential franchise QB's but not there yet

Carson WentzPHI

Kyler MurrayARI

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

 

Aging former franchise QB's who will need to be replaced soon 3 are FA's

Drew BreesNO

Tom BradyNE

Aaron RodgersGB

Philip RiversLAC

Ryan Matt ATL

Newton Cam Car

 

The rest.   

Ryan TannehillTEN

Derek CarrOAK

Matthew StaffordDET

Kirk CousinsMIN

Jameis WinstonTB

Daniel JonesNYG

Baker MayfieldCLE

Jacoby BrissettIND

Jared GoffLAR

Josh AllenBUF

Sam DarnoldNYJ

Gardner Minshew IIJAX

Andy DaltonCIN

Mitchell TrubiskyCHI

Kyle AllenCAR

Mason RudolphPIT

Ryan FitzpatrickMIA

 

 

 And i see 8-9 guys on your "the rest" that could get teams to the SB some day.

[Valpo2004]

I would argue that Wentz and Jimmy G make the list of franchise QB's by the judgement of their own franchises.  Look at their contracts.  So is Matt Stafford.

 

11 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

Newton yea he's not aging you are correct, but he is most likely going to be replaced. 

 

 

 

Newton does have age concerns due to the type of QB he his.  Or perhaps a better word would be "wear and tear concerns".  If you are a QB that runs and takes hits a lot as a big part of your success, the age at which you can be an effective starter is going to be closer to a RB than the pocket passing QB's.  

 

To be fair though I think Cam and other QB's like him could likely move on to long term backup jobs in the 2nd half of their careers.  

[stitches]

I disagree with your categorization of half a dozen of those. To me it's weird you are putting Dak as a surefire franchise QB, while leaving Wentz out. To me it's not even close that Wentz is a much better QB than Dak. 

 

If I had to put categories I'd say:

 

Franchise QBs(those include current or in the recent past). My reasoning to this categorization is that I want our next QB to fit in this category at some point. 

 

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Drew BreesNO

Tom BradyNE

Aaron RodgersGB

Philip RiversLAC

Ryan Matt ATL

Newton Cam Car

Ben RoethlisbergerPIT 

Matthew StaffordDET

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

Dak PrescottDAL

 

I can argue for the last several of those to be in the next category:

 

Borderline/dependent on talent/scheme around them/need a bit more info... this is the category I would be alright if we are in, but only on rookie/small contract, not on franchise type QB contract:

Kirk CousinsMIN

Jared GoffLAR

Derek CarrOAK

Ryan TannehillTEN

 

Too young/early to tell... lets see in a couple of years.

Kyler MurrayARI

Baker MayfieldCLE

Josh AllenBUF

Sam DarnoldNYJ

Lamar JacksonBAL

Gardner Minshew IIJAX

Kyle AllenCAR

Mason RudolphPIT

Daniel JonesNYG

Dwayne HaskinsWAS

Drew Lock, DEN

 

Not franchise QB

Jameis WinstonTB

Jacoby BrissettIND

Andy DaltonCIN

Mitchell TrubiskyCHI

Ryan FitzpatrickMIA

Nick FolesJAX

Marcus Mariota,TEN

 

So I would say about half the league has either a franchise QB or one that is aging and might not be as good as it used to be. About 1/8 has borderline/talent(scheme) dependent QBs. About 1/4th of the league has young QBs who we still don't know either way if they are or not a franchise QB. The most controversial in mine I would guess is Lamar. I still want to see a bit more from him. I want to see how he counters what defensive coordinators will devise against that Baltimore scheme in the off-season. He's the closest to entering the "franchose QB" rank from my "too young to tell" category. Some of the "too young to tell" category are much closer to the "not franchise QB" category than others of course. 

 

If I had to pick one from the "Not franchise QB" category to give a shot to in case he turns it around with new system/coaching staff at a new place(Tannehil like shot) it would be Jameis Winston. 

 

[chad72]

23 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

I would argue that Wentz and Jimmy G make the list of franchise QB's by the judgement of their own franchises.  Look at their contracts.  So is Matt Stafford.

 

 

Valid point!!! If both Dak and Trubisky just get franchised, it does tell me their franchise is not sold on them yet. 

 

Wentz, like @stitches said, is definitely a better QB than Dak. He almost made chicken salad out of chicken poop, IMO, with the Eagles this year. Dak had a more talented and healthy supporting cast and better defense than Wentz, yet could not generate consistency in level of play to win a weak NFC East. That is a big reason why Jerry is not rushing to dole out a big contract to Dak.

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Valid point!!! If both Dak and Trubisky just get franchised, it does tell me their franchise is not sold on them yet. 

 

Wentz, like @stitches said, is definitely a better QB than Dak. He almost made chicken salad out of chicken poop, IMO, with the Eagles this year. Dak had a more talented and healthy supporting cast and better defense than Wentz, yet could not generate consistency in level of play to win a weak NFC East. That is a big reason why Jerry is not rushing to dole out a big contract to Dak.

That offensive talent on Dallas is pretty damn good. I have no idea how they didn't even sniff the playoffs. This must have been some horrible coaching by Garrett ... and it's not just offensively ... they have tons of good to great players everywhere on the roster - defensive line, linebackers, corners, receivers, OLine, RB... what don't they have? Safety I guess... and DT maybe... 

[chad72]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

That offensive talent on Dallas is pretty damn good. I have no idea how they didn't even sniff the playoffs. This must have been some horrible coaching by Garrett ... that team has so much talent. 

 

Yep, Garrett is a little like the Tony Dungy mold, "do what we do and don't need to change it up" type of mold. The only difference is he didn't have the luxury of a HOF QB like Peyton. 

[Valpo2004]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

I disagree with your categorization of half a dozen of those. To me it's weird you are putting Dak as a surefire franchise QB, while leaving Wentz out. To me it's not even close that Wentz is a much better QB than Dak. 

 

If I had to put categories I'd say:

 

Franchise QBs(those include current or in the recent past). My reasoning to this categorization is that I want our next QB to fit in this category at some point. 

 

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Drew BreesNO

Tom BradyNE

Aaron RodgersGB

Philip RiversLAC

Ryan Matt ATL

Newton Cam Car

Ben RoethlisbergerPIT 

Matthew StaffordDET

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

Dak PrescottDAL

 

I can argue for the last several of those to be in the next category:

 

Borderline/dependent on talent/scheme around them/need a bit more info... this is the category I would be alright if we are in, but only on rookie/small contract, not on franchise type QB contract:

Kirk CousinsMIN

Jared GoffLAR

Derek CarrOAK

Ryan TannehillTEN

 

Too young/early to tell... lets see in a couple of years.

Kyler MurrayARI

Baker MayfieldCLE

Josh AllenBUF

Sam DarnoldNYJ

Lamar JacksonBAL

Gardner Minshew IIJAX

Kyle AllenCAR

Mason RudolphPIT

Daniel JonesNYG

Dwayne HaskinsWAS

Drew Lock, DEN

 

Not franchise QB

Jameis WinstonTB

Jacoby BrissettIND

Andy DaltonCIN

Mitchell TrubiskyCHI

Ryan FitzpatrickMIA

Nick FolesJAX

Marcus Mariota,TEN

 

So I would say about half the league has either a franchise QB or one that is aging and might not be as good as it used to be. About 1/8 has borderline/talent(scheme) dependent QBs. About 1/4th of the league has young QBs who we still don't know either way if they are or not a franchise QB. The most controversial in mine I would guess is Lamar. I still want to see a bit more from him. I want to see how he counters what defensive coordinators will devise against that Baltimore scheme in the off-season. He's the closest to entering the "franchose QB" rank from my "too young to tell" category. Some of the "too young to tell" category are much closer to the "not franchise QB" category than others of course. 

 

If I had to pick one from the "Not franchise QB" category to give a shot to in case he turns it around with new system/coaching staff at a new place(Tannehil like shot) it would be Jameis Winston. 

 

 

I will say to both of you really if Tannehill keeps playing like he played this year I would say he's a franchise QB.  Has to do it for more than one year obviously.  But he bested Drew Bree's passer rating this year and Drew Brees posted his career best season passer rating this year.  

[stitches]

3 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

I will say to both of you really if Tannehill keeps playing like he played this year I would say he's a franchise QB.  Has to do it for more than one year obviously.  But he bested Drew Bree's passer rating this year and Drew Brees posted his career best season passer rating this year.  

I agree. I thought Tannehill was done before this year, but I always thought he had talent, just seemed to have bad luck with injuries and with his organization. This situation looks much better for him and he might move up into the franchise QBs category with another strong season. 

[runthepost]

22 minutes ago, stitches said:

I agree. I thought Tannehill was done before this year, but I always thought he had talent, just seemed to have bad luck with injuries and with his organization. This situation looks much better for him and he might move up into the franchise QBs category with another strong season. 

Doesn’t this Ryan Tannehill scenario have similarities to Brees when he left SD for New Orleans?

[stitches]

8 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Doesn’t this Ryan Tannehill scenario have similarities to Brees when he left SD for New Orleans?

To some degree yes, but Brees was probably better regarded before he moved to the Saints(had a pro-bowl, a comeback player of the year award). But yeah... there are some parallels. Still I don't think it's safe to assume that type of path leads to all pro careers. What Brees did is more the exception than the rule, so... that's why I'm saying I'd like to see one more season before I totally buy into it. 

[chad72]

9 minutes ago, runthepost said:

Doesn’t this Ryan Tannehill scenario have similarities to Brees when he left SD for New Orleans?

 

It kind of does but the nature of the Titans offense revolves around the run unlike the Saints offense when Brees joined them. Sean Payton's play calling superiority combined with Brees' ability made that offense tick.

[WifiGuy]

Fair enough .  good discussion.

 

Of all the QB's listed which would you give up this yrs 1st and next yrs first for?    Lets see how much confidence you have in my "the rest" category being under rated

[Valpo2004]

2 hours ago, stitches said:

To some degree yes, but Brees was probably better regarded before he moved to the Saints(had a pro-bowl, a comeback player of the year award). But yeah... there are some parallels. Still I don't think it's safe to assume that type of path leads to all pro careers. What Brees did is more the exception than the rule, so... that's why I'm saying I'd like to see one more season before I totally buy into it. 

 

I'm not sure of the Tannehill injury situation but my impression was the phins moved on from him more due to skill and not injury.  Brees was lowballed because they where not sure about his arm after that shoulder injury.

 

Also it's different because the chargers had Rivers waiting in the wings.  

[Valpo2004]

43 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

Fair enough .  good discussion.

 

Of all the QB's listed which would you give up this yrs 1st and next yrs first for?    Lets see how much confidence you have in my "the rest" category being under rated

 

Of all the NFL QB's or all of the QB's in the draft?

 

I think if we gave up 2 first round picks for Mahomes the entire NFL world would say that the Chiefs got fleeced.  . . And chief's fans would probably burn down arrowhead in a completely understandable rage.

[WifiGuy]

25 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Of all the NFL QB's or all of the QB's in the draft?

 

I think if we gave up 2 first round picks for Mahomes the entire NFL world would say that the Chiefs got fleeced.  . . And chief's fans would probably burn down arrowhead in a completely understandable rage.

Was referring to the existing NFL players but I was going to include the QB's in the draft also.   

 

So lets say anyone.   The top 3-4 are obvious to me at least  Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, Wilson.  Rogers, but he will be 36 this yr but still playing at a very high level.

 

Doubt anyone would argue with any of them.  

 

But of any others,    including this yrs draft.   Who would you give up this yrs and next yrs 1st for?  And don't forget the current players come with their salary.

 

 

 

[stitches]

1 hour ago, WifiGuy said:

Fair enough .  good discussion.

 

Of all the QB's listed which would you give up this yrs 1st and next yrs first for?    Lets see how much confidence you have in my "the rest" category being under rated

I wouldn't give up anything for the QBs in my "not franchise QB" category. 

 

In my "too young/early to tell" category, by definition, it's probably to early for me to be firm with any of them, but if I absolutely had to choose and put money on some of them I would choose:

Baker Mayfield (my biggest concern with him is attitude, rather than talent, so this would be contingent on him passing whatever meeting/test Brian Decker does with players)

Kyler MurrayARI

Lamar JacksonBAL

 

Darnold is close too, but I guess at this point I wouldn't give 2 1sts.

 

In my "borderline" category I wouldn't give up 2 1sts for anyone. 

 

In my "franchise or aging franchise QB" category I would give 2 1sts for

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Aaron RodgersGB

Ryan Matt ATL

 

 

I wouldn't give 2 1sts for the other aging ones(too close to retiring or falling off or already fallen off). Which leaves these 3:

 

Matthew StaffordDET

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

Dak PrescottDAL

 

This is where I said I can argue for them to be included in the borderline category. I would give up something for those, but not 2 1sts I think. 

 

About this coming draft - I would give up 2 firsts for Burrow and for Tua(if I had some guarantees about his health). 

 

So final list:

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Aaron RodgersGB

Ryan Matt ATL

------

Baker Mayfield 

Kyler MurrayARI

Lamar JacksonBAL

------

Joe Burrow

Tua Tagovailoa

 

I completely disagree with your way of evaluating "potential franchise QBs" of the young ones and the draftees, though. For example, I might not be willing to give up 2 firsts for Love and Herbert but I absolutely think they have the potential to be franchise QBs if developed well. Hell, I think Love has the highest potential of all of them. Same goes for players like Josh Allen, Daniel Jones, Darnold, etc. from the "too young to tell" category. They might have some risks that I think are not worth investing 2 1sts in, but they also have the talent to become franchise QB if developed and steered well by their coaches. 

[OffensivelyPC]

23 hours ago, WifiGuy said:

Potential franchise QB's but not there yet

Carson WentzPHI

Carson Wentz is absolutely a franchise QB.   What he was able to do with no receivers and protection this year was nothing short of an act of God.   If the Eagles were stupid enough to get rid of him I'd pound the table to sign him.  Heck, I'd trade for him and pay a couple of high round picks for him.  We'd be getting the better end of that deal...

[WifiGuy]

17 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Carson Wentz is absolutely a franchise QB.   What he was able to do with no receivers and protection this year was nothing short of an act of God.   If the Eagles were stupid enough to get rid of him I'd pound the table to sign him.  Heck, I'd trade for him and pay a couple of high round picks for him.  We'd be getting the better end of that deal...

I listed him as not there yet, mostly because he's missed a lot of games in his short carrier. But I do agree he will eventually (hopefully) get there and I would use 2 1st to get him because of potential.

[WifiGuy]

20 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Carson Wentz is absolutely a franchise QB.   What he was able to do with no receivers and protection this year was nothing short of an act of God.   If the Eagles were stupid enough to get rid of him I'd pound the table to sign him.  Heck, I'd trade for him and pay a couple of high round picks for him.  We'd be getting the better end of that deal...

 

[WifiGuy]

29 minutes ago, stitches said:

I wouldn't give up anything for the QBs in my "not franchise QB" category. 

 

In my "too young/early to tell" category, by definition, it's probably to early for me to be firm with any of them, but if I absolutely had to choose and put money on some of them I would choose:

Baker Mayfield (my biggest concern with him is attitude, rather than talent, so this would be contingent on him passing whatever meeting/test Brian Decker does with players)

Kyler MurrayARI

Lamar JacksonBAL

 

Darnold is close too, but I guess at this point I wouldn't give 2 1sts.

 

In my "borderline" category I wouldn't give up 2 1sts for anyone. 

 

In my "franchise or aging franchise QB" category I would give 2 1sts for

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Aaron RodgersGB

Ryan Matt ATL

 

 

I wouldn't give 2 1sts for the other aging ones(too close to retiring or falling off or already fallen off). Which leaves these 3:

 

Matthew StaffordDET

Jimmy GaroppoloSF

Dak PrescottDAL

 

This is where I said I can argue for them to be included in the borderline category. I would give up something for those, but not 2 1sts I think. 

 

About this coming draft - I would give up 2 firsts for Burrow and for Tua(if I had some guarantees about his health). 

 

So final list:

Patrick MahomesKC

Carson WentzPHI

Russell WilsonSEA

Deshaun WatsonHOU

Aaron RodgersGB

Ryan Matt ATL

------

Baker Mayfield 

Kyler MurrayARI

Lamar JacksonBAL

------

Joe Burrow

Tua Tagovailoa

 

I completely disagree with your way of evaluating "potential franchise QBs" of the young ones and the draftees, though. For example, I might not be willing to give up 2 firsts for Love and Herbert but I absolutely think they have the potential to be franchise QBs if developed well. Hell, I think Love has the highest potential of all of them. Same goes for players like Josh Allen, Daniel Jones, Darnold, etc. from the "too young to tell" category. They might have some risks that I think are not worth investing 2 1sts in, but they also have the talent to become franchise QB if developed and steered well by their coaches. 

BAker is a head scrather to me.  He has talent, but his headis not there.  Maybe working with Reich would change that but no way I give up 2 1st for him.

 

Tua absolutely intrigues me  

[stitches]

7 minutes ago, WifiGuy said:

BAker is a head scrather to me.  He has talent, but his headis not there.  Maybe working with Reich would change that but no way I give up 2 1st for him.

 

Tua absolutely intrigues me  

Yeah, Baker is weird. No idea what to think about him. He had a great rookie year and I really liked him as a prospect too and then this year happened with all the weirdness around him. I think his coaching situation was not good to say the least. He quite possibly had the worst coach/playcaller in the entire league and pretty bad OLine. I think Frank can do a lot with him. But still... I agree his head is what's worrisome. I understand people not wanting to deal with him and give up valuable assets for him, but yeah... with a huge caveat about him being mentally stable I think it might be worth it. 

[WifiGuy]

4 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, Baker is weird. No idea what to think about him. He had a great rookie year and I really liked him as a prospect too and then this year happened with all the weirdness around him. I think his coaching situation was not good to say the least. He quite possibly had the worst coach/playcaller in the entire league and pretty bad OLine. I think Frank can do a lot with him. But still... I agree his head is what's worrisome. I understand people not wanting to deal with him and give up valuable assets for him, but yeah... with a huge caveat about him being mentally stable I think it might be worth it. 

He's sell tickets/jerseys though .  Kids love him