hypothetical Funchess question

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Of course you can remove a game. And no doubt our staff DID when evaluating his drop rate and why it may have happened.
 And Andrew has been stinkaroo his whole career at ball placement, if you want to go back for years. He Finally showed some improvement last season.
 Please explain what his Incentives are. I have been wanting to know. Thanks
 

If you remove his worst game, then at least remove TY's worst game since you are comparing...

If that's cool, are you now going to remove his bad college games too? lol, just kidding.

 

luck's placement is a hell of a lot better than what Funch is coming from.

 

IIRC, his contract is 7M signing bonus, 3M base, and an additional 3M if he hits 1000 yards.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Luck bad at ball placement? That is kind of hillarious.  I remember one play to TY in the playoffs he put it right in the spot where TY only could get it with three defenders on him.

[ColtStrong2013]

3 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Hines is a 3rd down or APB. He won't take one of the minimum 5 slots for WR. Funchess would be looked at as a TE before Ebron would be looked at as a WR.

 

I guess I was confused at the original commentary on active rosters. I can't imagine keeping less than 6 with this group, i was more referring to game day active rosters and using Hines/Ebron's versatility and usage in different spots as reason for thinking 4 receivers on gameday isn't crazy. Is there a minimum for the 46 player game day roster? 

 

And I don't think we see eye to eye on your Ebron analysis. How many think of Funchess as a tight end?... Many see Ebron split wide and utilized as a receiving tight end that is limited as a blocker.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

24 minutes ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I guess I was confused at the original commentary on active rosters. I can't imagine keeping less than 6 with this group, i was more referring to game day active rosters and using Hines/Ebron's versatility and usage in different spots as reason for thinking 4 receivers on gameday isn't crazy. Is there a minimum for the 46 player game day roster? 

 

And I don't think we see eye to eye on your Ebron analysis. How many think of Funchess as a tight end?... Many see Ebron split wide and utilized as a receiving tight end that is limited as a blocker.

You are correct on this.  You have to look at your pass catchers as a whole not by position. 

[ColtStrong2013]

28 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You are correct on this.  You have to look at your pass catchers as a whole not by position. 

 

Right. And you also have to look at how Reich utilizes position groups. Would he rather have 4 receivers on the field at a given time or two (or three) tightends and a runningback or two? I'm going to say the latter more than the former, because of that versatility with his tightends and backs, and his desire to run the ball down a teams throat. Campbell certainly changes things from a positional standpoint in that argument, but nevertheless.

 

If that all means having an extra tight end on the active gameday roster over an added receiver, I would think there is more value to this offense there. The pass catchers are deep on this roster now across multiple spots. Mo Alie-Cox might be rolling into this season with a much higher value to the offense at TE3 than anyone is at WR4 and 5. 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I guess I was confused at the original commentary on active rosters. I can't imagine keeping less than 6 with this group, i was more referring to game day active rosters and using Hines/Ebron's versatility and usage in different spots as reason for thinking 4 receivers on gameday isn't crazy. Is there a minimum for the 46 player game day roster? 

 

And I don't think we see eye to eye on your Ebron analysis. How many think of Funchess as a tight end?... Many see Ebron split wide and utilized as a receiving tight end that is limited as a blocker.

 

Funchess was a TE that converted to a WR while at UM. Most consider him a TE-lite.

Ebron is a receiving TE. That doesn't mean he's seen as a WR, especially now that we have a WR who is a TE-lite.

 

No minimum, but.... As far as getting to the 46 game day roster, it's not really that hard reducing 7. Position counts will vary a little due to injury concerns, but not a big issue.  For instance, we had 10 OL on the 53, but typically only dressed 7-8. That's 2-3 spots. We'll likely keep 10 DBs on the 53, but typically won't dress more than 7-8. That's another 2-3 spots. We carried 5 TEs on the 53 at times last year, but dressed 3-4 IIRC. We'll dress at least 3 RBs, sometimes 4. Now that we have Ware, it will be a lot easier to dress only 3 (Mack, Ware, Hines). I don't see us dressing less than 5 WRs unless there are serious issues other places. 

[ColtStrong2013]

11 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Funchess was a TE that converted to a WR while at UM. Most consider him a TE-lite.

 

And yet has he scooted in and blocked in the NFL as a tight end? If not, this is a moot point. Because Ebron splits out wide often... 

 

11 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Ebron is a receiving TE. That doesn't mean he's seen as a WR, especially now that we have a WR who is a TE-lite.

 

I never said he was seen as a WR. I said he was a receiving tight end that is limited with his blocking ability and I said his versatility would seem to make it easier to justify dressing one less receiver because of the formation usage with tight ends and runningbacks... ESPECIALLY if one of your receivers is a big-bodied "tight end lite."

[EastStreet]

On 6/21/2019 at 8:51 AM, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

And yet has he scooted in and blocked in the NFL as a tight end? If not, this is a moot point. Because Ebron splits out wide often... 

 

 

I never said he was seen as a WR. I said he was a receiving tight end that is limited with his blocking ability and I said his versatility would seem to make it easier to justify dressing one less receiver because of the formation usage with tight ends and runningbacks... ESPECIALLY if one of your receivers is a big-bodied "tight end lite."

Not many teams have TEs that are great at both receiving and blocking. Kelce, Ertz, Kittle, are the exceptions, not the rule. And having a TE-lite starting as a WR isn't going make dressing 4 WRs any easier. If Funch was an outside speed demon, then maybe, but he's not. It might however make dressing less TEs easier....  That's why a lot folks think Funch will eat away snaps/yards/TDs from Ebron. And having a great flex TE and a TE-lite on the field at the same time is really only ideal in the RZ or short/medium yard passing situations. And keep in mind, most teams dress 5, and some even dress 6. Dressing 4 is pretty unusual.

 

And you can't ignore special teams. Teams typically don't want their top 3 or 4 WRs returning kicks or punts. Now if you're one of the few teams that have a DB returning kicks, then maybe you can get away with dressing 4 but still not ideal for a team that uses WR as much as we do. Last year's WR group was so limited we had to use our second leading WR (in snaps and yards) to return both kicks and punts.

 

Let's do this. Give me a 4 WR dress roster that accounts for outside/speed X, possession X, traditional slot, bully/big slot, and Z. You'll need to account for RZ, short, and long situations/sets... Don't forget PR (1) and KR (2) and also account for backup/injury so that you are not severely limited in the typical sets we run. And FYI, we run 3 WR sets 60ish% of the time, and 2 TE sets 30ish% of the time. 

 

[ColtStrong2013]

7 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

And FYI, we run 3 WR sets 60ish% of the time, and 2 TE sets 30ish% of the time. 

 

What was it before Doyle's injury? 

7 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

That's why a lot folks think Funch will eat away snaps/yards/TDs from Ebron.

I don't see that. I see mismatches and I'm fairly certain Reich will as well. Those guys on opposite ends of the field with Hilton and Campbell's (Hines as well) speed paired with those big bodied receivers is a nightmare for defenses to gameplan against. They can (and will) create serious space for our speed with those guys. 

 

7 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Not many teams have TEs that are great at both receiving and blocking. Kelce, Ertz, Kittle, are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

Doyle is pretty dang good at both... And Mo Alie-Cox will be as well this season, which will make the tight end group extremely valuable and deep. I know a lot of people see Ebron as the odd guy out, but I'm sure the organization doesn't. And I'm positive Luck won't. He built a great relationship pretty quick with him on the field last season. That won't go away by putting more weapons and mismatches on the field... 

[ColtStrong2013]

7 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Let's do this. Give me a 4 WR dress roster that accounts for outside/speed X, possession X, traditional slot, bully/big slot, and Z. You'll need to account for RZ, short, and long situations/sets... Don't forget PR (1) and KR (2) and also account for backup/injury so that you are not severely limited in the typical sets we run. And FYI, we run 3 WR sets 60ish% of the time, and 2 TE sets 30ish% of the time. 

 

 

I think they are relying on Funchess to provide several of those spots this season, and will utilize Ebron in the bully/big slot role a lot more than you are giving credit for. Ebron had to play traditional tight end more than ideal last season. Getting a healthy Jack Doyle gives this offense so much versatility and flexibility. I'm not saying 4 receivers is ideal... it's not. I said it COULD happen and would be due to an injury or two somewhere at the top of the receiver depth chart. 

[ColtStrong2013]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stampedeblue.com/platform/amp/2018/12/27/18157005/film-room-mo-alie-cox-making-the-most-of-his-opportunities

 

Breakdown of Mo Alie-Cox throughout his season of growth. They are singing his praises this offseason in regards to taking the next step to being a true tight end with better blocking and route running technique. Again, I don't see this hurting Ebron. I see it helping the offense put him in spots that he excels at which is in the bully/big slot role or possession receiver out wide that you speak of. That only helps the wide receiver depth of this team. We will see him in those roles much more than we'll see Funchess in any sort of a tight end role. 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

What was it before Doyle's injury? 

Snap counts last year were very similar. In 2018 it didn't change a lot overall due to Doyle's injury. Things looked to have changed more due to WR injury (Grant). IMO, Ebron and TE in general got a lot more targets simply because our WR group was so mediocre. That's not the case this year.  

 

Quote

I don't see that. I see mismatches and I'm fairly certain Reich will as well. Those guys on opposite ends of the field with Hilton and Campbell's (Hines as well) speed paired with those big bodied receivers is a nightmare for defenses to gameplan against. They can (and will) create serious space for our speed with those guys. 

Indy did a great job in terms of utilization with Ebron. They upped his RZ targets big time, and focused on the routes he was good at. He still dropped a lot. They will do the same with Funch. The thing is, Funch is "good", or more successful in the same types of routes that Ebron is. Indy hinted at using Funch in ways he is most successful at by publishing his route success rates along with AL's. IMO, if Cain comes back and Campbell is challenging for reps, Funch is going to be limited to his "successful" routes, which means he'll be playing big/bully slot, and possession X in short to intermediate routes. More or less 5-10 yards deep and a lot more in the middle of the field than outside or long. That's going to eat into Ebron's bread and butter.

 

Quote

Doyle is pretty dang good at both... And Mo Alie-Cox will be as well this season, which will make the tight end group extremely valuable and deep. I know a lot of people see Ebron as the odd guy out, but I'm sure the organization doesn't. And I'm positive Luck won't. He built a great relationship pretty quick with him on the field last season. That won't go away by putting more weapons and mismatches on the field...

 

Doyle is good at both, but he's not on the level that Ebron is in receiving. Cox is looking good as well. He's raw but making great strides and has a lot of upside. I don't see Ebron as the odd guy out at all. After this season, I'd bet on Ebron and Cox being resigned. Doyle is older and has injury issues. Ebron is younger and is an elite flex. Cox is taking big steps forward, younger than both, and will be cheap. Not so sure about Doyle unless he's very reasonable. 

 

 

[EastStreet]

3 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I think they are relying on Funchess to provide several of those spots this season, and will utilize Ebron in the bully/big slot role a lot more than you are giving credit for. Ebron had to play traditional tight end more than ideal last season. Getting a healthy Jack Doyle gives this offense so much versatility and flexibility. I'm not saying 4 receivers is ideal... it's not. I said it COULD happen and would be due to an injury or two somewhere at the top of the receiver depth chart. 

Funch is the big/bully slot, and possession X. Funch is not an outside speed X. We used Pascal and Inman as big slot (they both ran out of slot about 30% of their snaps). They were not very good big/bully slots.

 

A TE's routes are always going to be similar to a bully slot. That's what a TE is. The reason why you want an true WR bully slot is so you can have them on the field at the same time as a TE. Not sure you understand the sets we run, or what Reich wants to run based on down/distance and field position. 

[ColtStrong2013]

6 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Not sure you understand the sets we run, or what Reich wants to run based on down/distance and field position. 

 

I'm not sure you understand that progressive and inovative coaches utilize what they have personnel wise to design their sets. I am certain Franks gameplanning and design for this offense will change this season with more weapons on offense. 

[EastStreet]

5 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

 

I'm not sure you understand that progressive and inovative coaches utilize what they have personnel wise to design their sets. I am certain Franks gameplanning and design for this offense will change this season with more weapons on offense. 

Oh I absolutely expect them to innovate and use the personnel. That's why most think Funchess will eat into Ebron's stats....

[ColtStrong2013]

10 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Oh I absolutely expect them to innovate and use the personnel. That's why most think Funchess will eat into Ebron's stats....

 

And I don't doubt that his production will regress some, specifically his td hauls... He had a pretty spectacular first season in Indy. But I think he could definitely hit 60-700, while Funchess performs well. I don't look for Funchess to hit those kind of numbers without taking away from Hilton. Either way, Andrew's numbers should continue inching up... all while having a pretty balanced rushing attack, which Reich is adamant they must have.

[King Colt]

Houston Texans radio here said the Funchess/Hilton combo will be deadly and throwing in Ebron could mean big trouble for the NFL. Add this; the word association game they played with Luck, the word was "scary". Ya gotta luv it.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 6/18/2019 at 4:52 PM, Jdubu said:

I’m not specifically worried about cap hit. I’m just wondering how the contracts get made if it’s a hit only if they make the 53 roster. Like I said, if it’s a 7 million hit either way, it’s zero chance he goes. My dilemma and wonder comes in the way of what if one of these young guys really break out and it’s down to them or A floundering DF who plays like he did in Carolina? It’s just my thoughts, no big deal. 

 

I think his experience & Frank Reich's plans on how to utilize him pretty much make him a lock for the 53. I'd be very surprised to see them cut Funchess because Fountain or Cain look halfway decent in preseason games against 2nd & 3rd stringers.

[Four2itus]

Ignore feature is your friend...

[WoolMagnet]

Funchess is getting no love what so ever from the sports media.

I'm not expecting a surprise like Ebron, but I also find it hard to believe Reich can't find ways to utilize him (and his size) , and get some production from him situationally at the very least.

  I look at it as , at the very least, we over-oaid a little (wont hurt us) for a stop-gap , and we're only in it for a year.  If he produces, I dont see him getting huge numbers with all the other weapons on offense.  This could help us re-sign him if Ballard so chooses.  I dont think Ballard sees him necessarily as a long-term  solution.  Time will tell.  I hope he proves the nay-sayers wrong.

We also have some interesting young guys, besides Cain and Fountain , who could impress if given snaps.  We may have more potential talent here than we realize. Camp and pre-season will be very fun this year.... at many positions...: most in fact. 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, WoolMagnet said:

Funchess is getting no love what so ever from the sports media.

I'm not expecting a surprise like Ebron, but I also find it hard to believe Reich can't find ways to utilize him (and his size) , and get some production from him situationally at the very least.

  I look at it as , at the very least, we over-oaid a little (wont hurt us) for a stop-gap , and we're only in it for a year.  If he produces, I dont see him getting huge numbers with all the other weapons on offense.  This could help us re-sign him if Ballard so chooses.  I dont think Ballard sees him necessarily as a long-term  solution.  Time will tell.  I hope he proves the nay-sayers wrong.

We also have some interesting young guys, besides Cain and Fountain , who could impress if given snaps.  We may have more potential talent here than we realize. Camp and pre-season will be very fun this year.... at many positions...: most in fact. 

 

Reich should absolutely find great ways to utilize him. That said, it's going to be up to him embrace a new start, and rise to the challenge. In college, he showed great flashes but was also very inconsistent. The Panthers drafted him to become WR1, but he struggled, and ultimately was surpassed by a rookie in his 4th year. 

 

I'm not saying he had a good QB, was in a good system, or Carolina used him correctly. What I am saying is that he was inconsistent, limited, and never quite lived up to his billing. 

 

The Colts published some stats on him that showed he was very good in some routes. But it also showed he was very bad in others, and in short, not a complete WR. His drop issues go back to college, and aren't just a "one game issue" others would like you to believe. In his defense, he never had a QB like Luck, going back to his college days. 

 

At the end of the day, it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I'd love to see him kill it. Getting more than 500 or 600 yards though will be tough this year if Cain comes back healthy, Campbell is the real deal, Ebron is still one of Luck's favs, and TY is healthy. If he's a vacuum and catches everything Luck tosses at him, Luck will remember. If he's inconsistent, Luck will remember that too. At minimum, he's going to be a mismatch nightmare in short yardage and RZ situations going across the middle. Having TY, Funch, Ebron, and Campbell on the same time is legit scary.  

[WoolMagnet]

22 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

 

 

I'm not saying he had a good QB, was in a good system, or Was used correctly. What I am saying is that he was inconsistent, limited, and never quite lived up to his billing. 

 

 

Deja Vu

sounds like the scoop on Ebron when we picked him up.

if he works out half as well as Ebron, Ballard is a genius.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, WoolMagnet said:

Deja Vu

sounds like the scoop on Ebron when we picked him up.

if he works out half as well as Ebron, Ballard is a genius.

IMO, not really. Stafford throws a decent ball. He's 66% witch is just a tick behind Luck. Stafford had multiple WRs with 1000+ with a healthy Tate. Ebron had a drop problem there, and he dropped plenty with Indy last year.

 

The difference is, the Colts increased Ebron's RZ targets big time, and it paid off with TDs. Ebron wasn't a well rounded TE, or asked to be, in Indy. He was asked mostly to be a flex and not block a whole lot. And, he  wouldn't have gotten near the targets he did last year had we had a decent WR group beyond TY. 

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

On 6/18/2019 at 2:30 PM, pgt_rob said:

I think we're keeping 6 WR at the minimum on the active roster. TY, Rogers, Funchess, Campbell, Cain, and Pascal. We could very well call up Fountain as well for just in case but I think this is the line up for right now. Luck will be passing around the ball a lot again this year.

Agree, and would add that we will only keep 3 TE with DF possibly playing a similar role as Ebron last year.

[WoolMagnet]

6 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

IMO, not really. Stafford throws a decent ball. He's 66% witch is just a tick behind Luck. Stafford had multiple WRs with 1000+ with a healthy Tate. Ebron had a drop problem there, and he dropped plenty with Indy last year.

 

The difference is, the Colts increased Ebron's RZ targets big time, and it paid off with TDs. Ebron wasn't a well rounded TE, or asked to be, in Indy. He was asked mostly to be a flex and not block a whole lot. And, he  wouldn't have gotten near the targets he did last year had we had a decent WR group beyond TY. 

Like i said, sounds like the  Ebron situation.

Never said they were clones from the planet make believe.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Anyone wants to laugh and listen to a entertaining podcast go check out The Brew. The two guys went back and forth on Funchess. The one guy wants him cut now so the young guys can play. The other guy was trying to explain Funchess is young. 

[IndyScribe]

He's not going to get cut unless he completely forgets how to play WR. It's not like his cap hit hurts the Colts a lot anyways. They still have a lot of cap space. He's the most proven WR on the roster after TY, and I think he can do some good things this season. 

[King Colt]

"I feel the need for speed."

[Peterk2011]

On 6/20/2019 at 10:52 PM, throwing BBZ said:

Please explain what his Incentives are. I have been wanting to know. Thanks.

 

I don't know the details, but incentives usually fall into 2 categories: LTBE (likely to be earned), and NLTBE (not likely to be earned). LTBE incentives must be booked in advance - so they count against the cap right away -, and then, in case not earned, the team can gain/book them back in next's years budget. NLTBE incentives on the other hand, don't need to be booked in advance. They book it, if and when earned, either in the current year (if it happens early enough) or the next year. 

 

If we can believe spotrac, Funches's incentives fall into the NLTBE category, because they do not appear in the cap hit column. So, there must be some steep numbers - like 1000+ yards, 10 TD's-, pro-bowl, all-pro etc - that Funches has never done yet, otherwise they would've fallen into the LTBE category.

[AwesomeAustin]

On 6/19/2019 at 1:24 PM, Irish YJ said:

First, you can't remove a game lol..... And you can't ignore his hands history going back to college.

 

Second, you have to look at targets. TY had 120 targets, while Funch had 79. That's less than 2/3rds of TY's. I'd also note that TY was a victim of too many forced balls when he was in double coverage. That won't happen nearly as much this year. Funch was I believe 3rd or 4th in targets for Carolina, and was rarely doubled.

 

I do agree Funchess can be good in our system, but that's if they limit him to the routes he's good at (like the ones the Colts published). I also think that Luck is good enough, and smart enough, to throw balls away from his body (he's better catching at eye level or higher, or outside of core). Regardless, I'd bet a lot of money he doesn't hit his incentive (unless we have some serious injuries at WR).

 

I agree with you.  I hate when people say take away the bad games and he is actually good.  Or if you don’t count those 3-4 games he balled out he is just an average player. Every game counts. 

 

Ive had ex employees try this same logic.  If you don’t count those days I’ve missed bc of xyz my attendance is good.  Or I know I did terrible those days but the rest of the time I did well.  Actually, your attendance sucks and it doesn’t matter what your excuse is, you missed 8 days and your fired or your production numbers don’t support your salary so you are a bad investment.  

[rock8591]

6 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

 

I agree with you.  I hate when people say take away the bad games and he is actually good.  Or if you don’t count those 3-4 games he balled out he is just an average player. Every game counts. 

 

Ive had ex employees try this same logic.  If you don’t count those days I’ve missed bc of xyz my attendance is good.  Or I know I did terrible those days but the rest of the time I did well.  Actually, your attendance sucks and it doesn’t matter what your excuse is, you missed 8 days and your fired or your production numbers don’t support your salary so you are a bad investment.  

 

I should feel proud then.

 

Last 2 years at my job, I've called out for a total of 6 hours (less than 1 day).

[AwesomeAustin]

2 hours ago, rock8591 said:

 

I should feel proud then.

 

Last 2 years at my job, I've called out for a total of 6 hours (less than 1 day).

 

Great job.  I haven’t missed work in 3yrs.  Still have a ways to go before I match my grandpa.  He had perfect attendance his last 23yrs. He reminds me about every other time I see him that the easiest thing to do is go to work every day.  Old man is something else. 

[Myles]

On 6/29/2019 at 1:15 PM, IndyScribe said:

He's not going to get cut unless he completely forgets how to play WR. It's not like his cap hit hurts the Colts a lot anyways. They still have a lot of cap space. He's the most proven WR on the roster after TY, and I think he can do some good things this season. 

I expect him to be a good weapon for us this season.