hypothetical Funchess question

[Jdubu]

I have been trying to sort through the DF deal and seeing what his actual cap hits are for this season. What I have found was that he pretty much has a 7 million dollar roster bonus plus his yearly salary. My question is, lets say that DF really does not do well in the camp and through the preseason but someone like Fountain really shines through. Knowing we are keeping TY, Cain (most likely), Campbell, and they seem extremely set on Rogers. That makes 4. I know they have hinted to maybe only keeping 4 this year but I can't see that, it has to be at least 5 if not 6. Under the scenario that we only keep 4 or even 5 and Rogers is a definite guy for the special teams play primarily, slot back up secondarily, and Fountain is clearly outplaying Funch, what is the cap hit if we cut him prior to making the 53 after preseason is complete? 

 

I know it is far fetched and certainly not happening if that 7 million is his cap hit but I was looking for clarity on that part. Thanks, and this would certainly be a huuuuuge shocker if it did go down like this. 

[w87r]

We would have to pay the $7m. It was guaranteed at signing.

 

We would save $3m of his base salary though.

 

Long story short, he will be here for this season.

 

[Colts1324]

I don't believe any team keeps 4 WR. Teams keep at least 5 WR on their roster at all times. Funchess will be our No. 2 or No. 3 WR this year. The coaches seemed to be giving off encouraging signs as well 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think we might keep 6 WR. At least to start the season. With Campbell being s rookie and Cain coming off injury we still do have a lot of uncertainty. Plus funchess being new he is a little bit of one also.

[pgt_rob]

I think we're keeping 6 WR at the minimum on the active roster. TY, Rogers, Funchess, Campbell, Cain, and Pascal. We could very well call up Fountain as well for just in case but I think this is the line up for right now. Luck will be passing around the ball a lot again this year.

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, Jdubu said:

I have been trying to sort through the DF deal and seeing what his actual cap hits are for this season. What I have found was that he pretty much has a 7 million dollar roster bonus plus his yearly salary. My question is, lets say that DF really does not do well in the camp and through the preseason but someone like Fountain really shines through. Knowing we are keeping TY, Cain (most likely), Campbell, and they seem extremely set on Rogers. That makes 4. I know they have hinted to maybe only keeping 4 this year but I can't see that, it has to be at least 5 if not 6. Under the scenario that we only keep 4 or even 5 and Rogers is a definite guy for the special teams play primarily, slot back up secondarily, and Fountain is clearly outplaying Funch, what is the cap hit if we cut him prior to making the 53 after preseason is complete? 

 

I know it is far fetched and certainly not happening if that 7 million is his cap hit but I was looking for clarity on that part. Thanks, and this would certainly be a huuuuuge shocker if it did go down like this. 

 

 
 LMAO that Ballard or anyone on his staff hinted at 4 wide receivers. nonsense!
 And what a reach for a scenario.   

[indyagent17]

Pascal is the wildcard, its either him or Fountain on the active roster day 1

[jskinnz]

40 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 
 LMAO that Ballard or anyone on his staff hinted at 4 wide receivers. nonsense!
 And what a reach for a scenario.   

 

Yeah - I cannot possibly imagine that anyone from the Colts has said anything about how many WRs they will carry.  Maybe someone on here speculated that but no one who would know has said that.

[CR91]

This is nothing against Funchess, but we don't get much out of one year rental WRs

 

2012-Donnie Avery

2013-Darrius Heyward-Bey

2014-Hakeem Nicks

2015-Andre Johnson

2016-Philip Dorsett (Drafted)

2017-Kamar Aiken

2018-Ryan Grant

[Scott Pennock]

60 catches, 781 yards and 3 tds from Avery in 2012 was about the best production individually.

 

Grant/Inman matched that collectively last year.

 

Funchess is younger and likely looking for the BIG payday so I think he'll put up better numbers than we have come to expect.

 

With the depth in next years draft (per Ballard) I'd likely let him walk and get draft pick compensation AND draft a young stud. This is, of course, in addition to one or two players show improvement/breakout this year in the group of Cain, Pascal, Johnson, Fountain, Ishmael and Parris balls out as well.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

2 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I have been trying to sort through the DF deal and seeing what his actual cap hits are for this season. What I have found was that he pretty much has a 7 million dollar roster bonus plus his yearly salary. My question is, lets say that DF really does not do well in the camp and through the preseason but someone like Fountain really shines through. Knowing we are keeping TY, Cain (most likely), Campbell, and they seem extremely set on Rogers. That makes 4. I know they have hinted to maybe only keeping 4 this year but I can't see that, it has to be at least 5 if not 6. Under the scenario that we only keep 4 or even 5 and Rogers is a definite guy for the special teams play primarily, slot back up secondarily, and Fountain is clearly outplaying Funch, what is the cap hit if we cut him prior to making the 53 after preseason is complete? 

 

I know it is far fetched and certainly not happening if that 7 million is his cap hit but I was looking for clarity on that part. Thanks, and this would certainly be a huuuuuge shocker if it did go down like this. 

Stop worrying about it. There is a 0 chance of him getting cut IMO!

[ColtStrong2013]

3 hours ago, Colts1324 said:

I don't believe any team keeps 4 WR. Teams keep at least 5 WR on their roster at all times. Funchess will be our No. 2 or No. 3 WR this year. The coaches seemed to be giving off encouraging signs as well 

 

There may be times where he looks like our #1... formation wise and production wise. He's going to be difficult to cover, especially when trying to minimize the mismatches Frank Reich is going to exploit with Hilton, Campbell, Doyle, Ebron and Hines. 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

4 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I have been trying to sort through the DF deal and seeing what his actual cap hits are for this season. What I have found was that he pretty much has a 7 million dollar roster bonus plus his yearly salary. My question is, lets say that DF really does not do well in the camp and through the preseason but someone like Fountain really shines through. Knowing we are keeping TY, Cain (most likely), Campbell, and they seem extremely set on Rogers. That makes 4. I know they have hinted to maybe only keeping 4 this year but I can't see that, it has to be at least 5 if not 6. Under the scenario that we only keep 4 or even 5 and Rogers is a definite guy for the special teams play primarily, slot back up secondarily, and Fountain is clearly outplaying Funch, what is the cap hit if we cut him prior to making the 53 after preseason is complete? 

 

I know it is far fetched and certainly not happening if that 7 million is his cap hit but I was looking for clarity on that part. Thanks, and this would certainly be a huuuuuge shocker if it did go down like this. 

 

We'll be keeping 5 or 6 WR's. And why are you concerned about the cap hit if Funchess is cut, especially since we like a gazillion $ under?

[Jdubu]

3 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 
 LMAO that Ballard or anyone on his staff hinted at 4 wide receivers. nonsense!
 And what a reach for a scenario.   

Well, there was an article and I’m pretty sure it was something said by Reich that we may only keep 4 wr’s. Maybe it was the writers opinion, I don’t recall but it was stated with in the past few weeks. I too would think 5-6 but just going off what I recall. Step back from your high and mighty ledge buddy, it’s offseason and it’s a scenario that is for discussion. 

2 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

Yeah - I cannot possibly imagine that anyone from the Colts has said anything about how many WRs they will carry.  Maybe someone on here speculated that but no one who would know has said that.

It’s possible the speculation part but it was from an article read within past few weeks and if iirc, it was with Reich interview. Again, maybe it was post interview and that was what the interviewee took away from it. Idk. 

55 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

We'll be keeping 5 or 6 WR's. And why are you concerned about the cap hit if Funchess is cut, especially since we like a gazillion $ under?

I’m not specifically worried about cap hit. I’m just wondering how the contracts get made if it’s a hit only if they make the 53 roster. Like I said, if it’s a 7 million hit either way, it’s zero chance he goes. My dilemma and wonder comes in the way of what if one of these young guys really break out and it’s down to them or A floundering DF who plays like he did in Carolina? It’s just my thoughts, no big deal. 

[Jdubu]

2 hours ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Stop worrying about it. There is a 0 chance of him getting cut IMO!

Lol well what else we going to discuss for 2 months if we don’t discuss some what if’s and some actual reports from someone? I’m not losing sleep over any of it. 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, CR91 said:

This is nothing against Funchess, but we don't get much out of one year rental WRs

 

2012-Donnie Avery

2013-Darrius Heyward-Bey

2014-Hakeem Nicks

2015-Andre Johnson

2016-Philip Dorsett (Drafted)

2017-Kamar Aiken

2018-Ryan Grant

 

Well...    we didn’t sign him to be a one year rental.    According to Ballard, we tried to sign him for two or three years.

But Funchess preferred to gamble on himself with a one year.

[CR91]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well...    we didn’t sign him to be a one year rental.    According to Ballard, we tried to sign him for two or three years.

But Funchess preferred to gamble on himself with a one year.

 

True, but the point still has merit. Again this was not a spite against Funchess

[NewColtsFan]

37 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

True, but the point still has merit. Again this was not a spite against Funchess

Except for the fact that most of the players who flamed out were Grigson’s, not Ballard’s. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just my opinion but I think Funchess is clearly a better WR then the ones that failed.

[wig]

He absolutely won't be cut. He'll:

 

Have a good to great year and get paid well in Indy, or move on and we get a 3rd rd comp pick. 

 

Have a decent to poor year and sign a reasonable 3 year deal in Indy or somewhere else. 

[Jdubu]

9 minutes ago, wig said:

He absolutely won't be cut. He'll:

 

Have a good to great year and get paid well in Indy, or move on and we get a 3rd rd comp pick. 

 

Have a decent to poor year and sign a reasonable 3 year deal in Indy or somewhere else. 

Lol. That’s probably all true. Let’s hope for our sake, he balls out, his drops aren’t an issue and he plays to his size. 

[CR91]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Except for the fact that most of the players who flamed out were Grigson’s, not Ballard’s. 

 

Aiken and Grant were Ballards

[shasta519]

5 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Aiken and Grant were Ballards

 

After Avery...it's been one/year...regardless of GM. Though I am not a huge Funchess fan...he's not as bad as Grant...let alone Aiken...who might have been (at the time) the worst Colts WR I have seen. He was abysmal

[Jdubu]

15 minutes ago, shastamasta said:

 

After Avery...it's been one/year...regardless of GM. Though I am not a huge Funchess fan...he's not as bad as Grant...let alone Aiken...who might have been (at the time) the worst Colts WR I have seen. He was abysmal

Johnson was the worst wr pick up, doesn’t matter which GM did it. We haven’t seen DF play a snap for us yet, he could be a bomb or a bust. Nobody knows what we are getting yet. 

[NewColtsFan]

25 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Aiken and Grant were Ballards

Yes....   I know.

 

That’s why I wrote “most of the players were Grigson’s.”

 

Im just saying the problem we had was more Grigson than Ballard.   I’m not worried about Aiken or Grant.   We’ve now added Funchess, Paris, Cain and Fountain.  I trust Ballard.   I believe in Ballard.

 

I view the list as more coincidence than anything else....

 

[CR91]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes....   I know.

 

That’s why I wrote “most of the players were Grigson’s.”

 

Im just saying the problem we had was more Grigson than Ballard.   I’m not worried about Aiken or Grant.   We’ve now added Funchess, Paris, Cain and Fountain.  I trust Ballard.   I believe in Ballard.

 

I view the list as more coincidence than anything else....

 

 

It was just an observation. Not saying Funchess will bust

[shasta519]

23 minutes ago, Jdubu said:

Johnson was the worst wr pick up, doesn’t matter which GM did it. We haven’t seen DF play a snap for us yet, he could be a bomb or a bust. Nobody knows what we are getting yet. 

 

Johnson was toast at that point...but no way he was a worse WR than Aiken. Aiken had a low catch rate that would make DHB blush and caught 0 TDs. AJ at least provided some value.

 

It depends on how you define "worst pickup." Is it performanc relative to expectations? Then sure...AJ would be it. But Aiken was the worst player...and probably a negative value.

[NewColtsFan]

I thought the worst of them all was Darrius Hayward (Heywood?) Bey.  

 

Bad hands and bad rout running.  Bad, bad combination for a wide receiver. 

[shasta519]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Yes....   I know.

 

That’s why I wrote “most of the players were Grigson’s.”

 

Im just saying the problem we had was more Grigson than Ballard.   I’m not worried about Aiken or Grant.   We’ve now added Funchess, Paris, Cain and Fountain.  I trust Ballard.   I believe in Ballard.

 

I view the list as more coincidence than anything else....

 

 

Even though I am excited about the young WRs and even though I didn't like Grigs...I am going to have to defend him here a bit.

 

With Grigs there is 5 seasons of data points...Ballard only has two (because we haven't yet see how this one plays out from the WR standpoint)...so there are going to be more of these on-year WR "misses." I don't expect Ballard will continue to sign these stopgap WR types...but like Grigs...he was definitely not immune to paying money to crappy WRs.

 

So I don't think it's totally fair to discredit Grigs for having a "problem" with one-year WR busts...and then toss out the two that Ballard has had in his first seasons. It's been an issue for a long time.

 

Also...if we judge Ballard on the whole picture...we should Grigs as well. Grigs re-signed Reggie...when many thought they should move on. He signed Avery...the last good one-year WR deal (until this year hopefully). He drafted Hilton. He drafted Moncrief...who people were just as high on as they are Campbell or Cain. He brought in Chester Rogers. He made some pretty great moves...and some pretty bad ones as well.

 

And while we can be confident about Ballard...when it comes to WR...it's still  wait and see. 

 

 

[lollygagger8]

15 hours ago, CR91 said:

This is nothing against Funchess, but we don't get much out of one year rental WRs

 

2012-Donnie Avery

2013-Darrius Heyward-Bey

2014-Hakeem Nicks

2015-Andre Johnson

2016-Philip Dorsett (Drafted)

2017-Kamar Aiken

2018-Ryan Grant

 

Yeesh!!! Thanks for the reminder......

 

[dodsworth]

The WR stable will be much better this year vs last season, regardless of

the Funchess aquisitition. Cain/Fountain are poised for a sophomore jump

after a year in an NFL, Marcus Johnson was doing some nice things early

on before his injury and we may have the steal of the draft in Parris Campbell.

 

Throw in a bunch of UDFA's that fit "Ballard's mold" of height, speed and catch

radius and we should have a pretty formidable receiving squad.

[akcolt]

14 hours ago, Jdubu said:

Well, there was an article and I’m pretty sure it was something said by Reich that we may only keep 4 wr’s. Maybe it was the writers opinion, I don’t recall but it was stated with in the past few weeks. I too would think 5-6 but just going off what I recall. Step back from your high and mighty ledge buddy, it’s offseason and it’s a scenario that is for discussion

I would love to get a link to this mystery article. I follow the Colts and football pretty closely  and I sure don’t remember any article ever talking about going with just 4 WR’s on a 53 man roster.  

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, akcolt said:

I would love to get a link to this mystery article. I follow the Colts and football pretty closely  and I sure don’t remember any article ever talking about going with just 4 WR’s on a 53 man roster.  

There was an article where he talked about competition for that 5th spot. He didn't say we were only keeping so many, but the way it was framed made me think their target was 5. Pretty sure it was Reich. I'll look for the article in a bit.

 

Personally I think we keep 5, but I can see 6 too with all the adds/rooks/recoveries/projects, etc.  TY, Cain, Campbell, Funch, and Rogers IMO are the base 5. I'd bet they will keep one at minimum on the PS. IMO, Fountain, Pascal, or Dulin could end up on the PS, perhaps two. And if Cain's recovery is slow, he could end up on the PUP and we keep another. 

 

As far as Funch is concerned, if they use him primarily at the routes he's good at (that they published), he'll be pretty limited at X. If Cain comes back fast, even more limited. I think his sweet spot is going to be as big-slot, and RZ/short-yardage X.

[EastStreet]

Here's the article. Again, doesn't say anything definitely, but I'd say it's safe to assume we're keeping at minimum 5 based on Reich's comment below (bolded in red).

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/06/indianapolis-colts-wide-receiver-competition-devin-funchess-parris-campbell/

Quote

 

As the Indianapolis Colts wrap up organized team activities Thursday and look to the final phase of spring workouts—mandatory minicamp—there will continue to be several eyes watching over the wide receiver competition.

 

Granted, the Colts know the competition doesn’t truly get heated up until the pads come on during training camp. But head coach Frank Reich can’t help but notice how much deeper the unit is this spring compared to the group he coached in his first season just one year ago.

 

“Last year at this time it wasn’t as deep,” Reich told reporters Tuesday. “I think those battles were starting to in some ways declare themselves a little bit even now even though you know deep down you’ve got to wait until training camp. But this year definitely there is more depth there, more guys that we have a lot of confidence in.”

 

We know T.Y. Hilton has his top spot locked up as WR1. All of the roles behind him, though, are up for grabs, and there are a lot of hungry mouths looking to chomp out an impact role in the room.

 

Indy brought in Devin Funchess on a one-year deal to compete for a starting role on the outside. He made some waves early in OTAs while the Colts are awaiting the return of Deon Cain, who is expected to be ready for training camp back from is torn ACL.

 

Rookie Parris Campbell will undoubtedly receive a lot of attention, but he’s worked mostly on the second-team offense with a few designed plays allowing him to work with the first team.

 

Fourth-year wideout Chester Rogers is having a strong spring, potentially the best out of the group through OTAs. He’s a player Reich has noticed from the position this spring.

“I think Chester’s spring has been really good,” Reich said. “I mean, really good.”

 

It isn’t clear how many wide receivers the Colts will keep on the roster. They started the season with five in 2018. It appears that could be kept the same this fall, but Reich detailed what he will be looking for in those final spots on the roster.

 

“So literally it’s we’ll let it all play out and guys are going to get a lot of reps,” Reich said. “It’s a question of who can stay healthy, who can be consistent and who can contribute on special teams for that fourth and fifth spot.”

 

The Colts have several position battles to watch during training camp and the preseason games, but the wide receiver room might have the most capable bodies competing for just a few spots.

 

Having that kind of depth isn’t something Reich will be too upset about.

 

 

[throwing BBZ]

17 hours ago, Jdubu said:

Well, there was an article and I’m pretty sure it was something said by Reich that we may only keep 4 wr’s. Maybe it was the writers opinion, I don’t recall but it was stated with in the past few weeks. I too would think 5-6 but just going off what I recall. Step back from your high and mighty ledge buddy, it’s offseason and it’s a scenario that is for discussion. 

It’s possible the speculation part but it was from an article read within past few weeks and if iirc, it was with Reich interview. Again, maybe it was post interview and that was what the interviewee took away from it. Idk. 

I’m not specifically worried about cap hit. I’m just wondering how the contracts get made if it’s a hit only if they make the 53 roster. Like I said, if it’s a 7 million hit either way, it’s zero chance he goes. My dilemma and wonder comes in the way of what if one of these young guys really break out and it’s down to them or A floundering DF who plays like he did in Carolina? It’s just my thoughts, no big deal. 

 

 Ok, he floundered his way into convincing Chris Ballard to write him a check for $7M to sign his contract, another $3M in base salary, and another $3M in incentives. 
 If he earns all his bonus he will make the same $$$ as T Y for the 2019 season.
 Drop the one terrible "drops" game he had last season, and he had a better drop rate than Guess Who, T Y.
  You have been here long enough to know to refer to Spotrac or overthe cap for contract info. 
I was not a fan of the Funchess signing at all, but i educated myself on his history, watched some tape, and listened to CB and Frank. Funchess "SHOULD" be very good in our system. Yeah Funchess!

[LockeDown]

The sheer fact that Reich was an NFL QB for so long gives me confidence that he can spot a good receiver. I don’t know if he had anything to do with Grant or Any from last year, but we know he wanted Funchess so I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[EastStreet]

29 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Ok, he floundered his way into convincing Chris Ballard to write him a check for $7M to sign his contract, another $3M in base salary, and another $3M in incentives. 
 If he earns all his bonus he will make the same $$$ as T Y for the 2019 season.
 Drop the one terrible "drops" game he had last season, and he had a better drop rate than Guess Who, T Y.
  You have been here long enough to know to refer to Spotrac or overthe cap for contract info. 
I was not a fan of the Funchess signing at all, but i educated myself on his history, watched some tape, and listened to CB and Frank. Funchess "SHOULD" be very good in our system. Yeah Funchess!

First, you can't remove a game lol..... And you can't ignore his hands history going back to college.

 

Second, you have to look at targets. TY had 120 targets, while Funch had 79. That's less than 2/3rds of TY's. I'd also note that TY was a victim of too many forced balls when he was in double coverage. That won't happen nearly as much this year. Funch was I believe 3rd or 4th in targets for Carolina, and was rarely doubled.

 

I do agree Funchess can be good in our system, but that's if they limit him to the routes he's good at (like the ones the Colts published). I also think that Luck is good enough, and smart enough, to throw balls away from his body (he's better catching at eye level or higher, or outside of core). Regardless, I'd bet a lot of money he doesn't hit his incentive (unless we have some serious injuries at WR).

[ColtStrong2013]

23 hours ago, Irish YJ said:

Here's the article. Again, doesn't say anything definitely, but I'd say it's safe to assume we're keeping at minimum 5 based on Reich's comment below (bolded in red).

 

It depends on how many out of the current group they feel they can safely keep on the practice squad. I think 4 is kind of crazy, but when you look at keeping a plethora of tight ends and maybe an extra runningback on active roster, you start factoring Ebron and Hines in as receivers more than tight end and runningback, as we will likely see those two split out more than in a traditional role. That's the beauty of versatility. 

[EastStreet]

4 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

It depends on how many out of the current group they feel they can safely keep on the practice squad. I think 4 is kind of crazy, but when you look at keeping a plethora of tight ends and maybe an extra runningback on active roster, you start factoring Ebron and Hines in as receivers more than tight end and runningback, as we will likely see those two split out more than in a traditional role. That's the beauty of versatility. 

Hines is a 3rd down or APB. He won't take one of the minimum 5 slots for WR. Funchess would be looked at as a TE before Ebron would be looked at as a WR.

 

Last year's PC had 1 TE, 2 WRs, 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 DEs, 1 CB, 1 OG, and 1 LB

[throwing BBZ]

On 6/19/2019 at 1:24 PM, Irish YJ said:

First, you can't remove a game lol..... And you can't ignore his hands history going back to college.

 

Second, you have to look at targets. TY had 120 targets, while Funch had 79. That's less than 2/3rds of TY's. I'd also note that TY was a victim of too many forced balls when he was in double coverage. That won't happen nearly as much this year. Funch was I believe 3rd or 4th in targets for Carolina, and was rarely doubled.

 

I do agree Funchess can be good in our system, but that's if they limit him to the routes he's good at (like the ones the Colts published). I also think that Luck is good enough, and smart enough, to throw balls away from his body (he's better catching at eye level or higher, or outside of core). Regardless, I'd bet a lot of money he doesn't hit his incentive (unless we have some serious injuries at WR).

 

 Of course you can remove a game. And no doubt our staff DID when evaluating his drop rate and why it may have happened.
 And Andrew has been stinkaroo his whole career at ball placement, if you want to go back for years. He Finally showed some improvement last season.
 Please explain what his Incentives are. I have been wanting to know. Thanks