Irsay/grigson Needs To Explore This With Peyton

[BProland85]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1082696-peyton-manning-rumors-increased-interest-should-have-colts-thinking-trade

I agree with this article. It may not work, but we can at least try and see if something can be done to help both sides. In the article the writer is also suggesting we can still trade him to a team Peyton prefers to play for, and still get compensation back for him.

Please no outrageous comments on this thread, its just something I think worth considering so we can better the franchise.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Not happening.

[jtcoltsfan]

^this. a bit expensive for our team

[BleedingBlue]

theres a lot of assumptions in that article. one thing that isn't an assumption is that teams are interested in PM.

[Peyton and Eli fan]

It's not in Peyton's best interest to allow himself to be traded. He'd end up going to a team that had to give up a lot and would be weakened.

[UndecidedFrog]

1) In order to keep PM on the roster, the Colts will have to pay the $28MM option bonus due March 8. If the Colts trade PM shortly thereafter, the salary cap hit will be $38.4MM in 2012, or about 1/3 of the entire team salary cap for a player that will not be playing for the Colts. So in terms of real dollars, that would be $28MM spent. And in terms of cap dollars, that would be $38.4MM gone. I hope what the Colts get in return will be worth more than these things combined.

2) Why would PM want to restructure his contract to make it more trade friendly for the Colts to trade him? Why would he want to hurt his future team, by having the Colts extract value from that team? Why can't he just be a FA and get a good deal with his new team, where PM can choose, rather than have the Colts choose for him?

The author of the article has not thought out things very well.

It makes no sense in any scenario to trade PM.

[Balzer40]

The writer of this article just sounds like a fan and not somebody that really has any idea what he's talking about. When he said Manning still has 5 more seasons of productivity, it lost any and all credibility with me. Its also obvious he really don't understand the cap implications of the situation.

[FireJimCaldwell]

That is the worst part about bleacher report, or that yahoo fan sports site, that allows anyone to write anything. Some will read it as fact or even a possibility and then pass it on as a fact, and then it spreads.

[UndecidedFrog]

The writer of this article just sounds like a fan and not somebody that really has any idea what he's talking about. When he said Manning still has 5 more seasons of productivity, it lost any and all credibility with me. Its also obvious he really don't understand the cap implications of the situation.

Yes, I got the same feeling that the author was a fan that was particularly ticked off that the Colts will lose PM, and get nothing in return. Hence, they dream up a convoluted, and not well-thought-out trade scenario that has no chance to become reality. Again, it is another example of seeing what they want to see rather than what is there.

[Superman]

That is the worst part about bleacher report, or that yahoo fan sports site, that allows anyone to write anything. Some will read it as fact or even a possibility and then pass it on as a fact, and then it spreads.

This clown is a "featured columnist," so don't put this nonsense on the fans. There's about 30 fans on this site who could have done a better job than that.

[FireJimCaldwell]

This clown is a "featured columnist," so don't put this nonsense on the fans. There's about 30 fans on this site who could have done a better job than that.

I don't doubt that one bit. A featured columnist there is a fan that has spent more time on that site, which is one reason I don't pay much attention to that site.

[Smonroe]

I don't doubt that one bit. A featured columnist there is a fan that has spent more time on that site, which is one reason I don't pay much attention to that site.

I have to agree. I pretty much ignore that site, it's like the National Enquirer. Some truth, but enough garbage to make it irrelevant.

[GoColts8818]

That is the worst part about bleacher report, or that yahoo fan sports site, that allows anyone to write anything. Some will read it as fact or even a possibility and then pass it on as a fact, and then it spreads.

no truth to the rumor that the person who gets the most stories passed along gets a job with ESPN though...

[jvan1973]

The writer of this article just sounds like a fan and not somebody that really has any idea what he's talking about. When he said Manning still has 5 more seasons of productivity, it lost any and all credibility with me. Its also obvious he really don't understand the cap implications of the situation.

If Peyton comes back healthy, there is no reason to think he couldnt be productive for 5 more years..

[UndecidedFrog]

If Peyton comes back healthy, there is no reason to think he couldnt be productive for 5 more years..

Actually, there are plenty of reasons to think he cannot be productive for 5 more years.

Even if healthy (his nerve regeneration issues have been taken care of), he will be aging every year.

The following studies show that franchise QBs (10+years starting) experience performance declines around the age of 30-31.

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5211-statistical-studies-on-ageperformance-of-nfl-qbs/page__fromsearch__1

The following article shows that most elite QBs retire or should have retired around the age of 35:

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/5234-the-decline-and-retirement-age-of-great-nfl-qbs/page__fromsearch__1

[FanFromtheWasteland]

The writer of this article just sounds like a fan and not somebody that really has any idea what he's talking about. When he said Manning still has 5 more seasons of productivity, it lost any and all credibility with me. Its also obvious he really don't understand the cap implications of the situation.

I'm glad I read this post first. Saved me some time reading the article.

[Jaric]

Not happening.

Yeah, I hate to shoot the whole thread down, but this is the correct answer. Just way too many obstacles that I don't see solutions for.

[Jaric]

Also, when did Peyton become the next George Blanda? Have I missed something?

[jvan1973]

Actually, there are plenty of reasons to think he cannot be productive for 5 more years.

Even if healthy (his nerve regeneration issues have been taken care of), he will be aging every year.

The following studies show that franchise QBs (10+years starting) experience performance declines around the age of 30-31.

http://forums.colts....__fromsearch__1

The following article shows that most elite QBs retire or should have retired around the age of 35:

http://forums.colts....__fromsearch__1

While those stats maybe true.. How many of those guys played in a league where its basically against the rules to tackle them.

[Superman]

While those stats maybe true.. How many of those guys played in a league where its basically against the rules to tackle them.

How many of them threw for 4500 yards and 33 touchdowns at age 35? Manning won two MVPs after the decline age of 30-31, as Frog's studies claim.

Peyton is going to age and not be able to perform at a high level at some point. Might be right now. But aside from the injury and the missed season, there's no evidence that his play is beginning to slide. If the injury robs him of his ability to play at a high level, that will absolutely suck, but that's different from just aging.

[FireJimCaldwell]

How many of them threw for 4500 yards and 33 touchdowns at age 35? Manning won two MVPs after the decline age of 30-31, as Frog's studies claim.

Peyton is going to age and not be able to perform at a high level at some point. Might be right now. But aside from the injury and the missed season, there's no evidence that his play is beginning to slide. If the injury robs him of his ability to play at a high level, that will absolutely suck, but that's different from just aging.

Throw in the fact that he played with this injury issue since mid-2006, If his arm strength returns, I could see him being better than the 2006-2010 Manning, in which he did take home an MVP or two.

[Superman]

Throw in the fact that he played with this injury issue since mid-2006, If his arm strength returns, I could see him being better than the 2006-2010 Manning, in which he did take home an MVP or two.

Big "IF", but I agree. The average age of decline is obviously not applicable to Peyton Manning. Maybe he never gets back, but it's because of a weird injury that really has nothing to do with his age, and everything to do with four neck surgeries and a damaged nerve.

[UndecidedFrog]

While those stats maybe true.. How many of those guys played in a league where its basically against the rules to tackle them.

How many of them threw for 4500 yards and 33 touchdowns at age 35? Manning won two MVPs after the decline age of 30-31, as Frog's studies claim.

Peyton is going to age and not be able to perform at a high level at some point. Might be right now. But aside from the injury and the missed season, there's no evidence that his play is beginning to slide. If the injury robs him of his ability to play at a high level, that will absolutely suck, but that's different from just aging.

Throw in the fact that he played with this injury issue since mid-2006, If his arm strength returns, I could see him being better than the 2006-2010 Manning, in which he did take home an MVP or two.

What the author of the last article I cited claimed was that the evidence of decline became evident in the latter part of the 2010 season. I quote:

In Week 9, versus the Eagles, he made his 200th consecutive regular season start — something entirely Manning-like. What wasn’t was the interception with six seconds remaining as the Colts vied for field goal position to win the game. They lost.

In Week 10, he threw for 185 yards and no TDs.

In Week 11, again while trying to lead the Colts to a game-winning rally, Peyton was intercepted, his third of the game. Even worse, it came against New England.

In Week 12, he was picked off four times.

In Week 13, another four.

Of course, we can blame part or all of this poor performance to the pain in his neck (literally), which may now be resolved?

I think the author has a point, but I would reserve judgment until I see him throw more.

[FireJimCaldwell]

What the author of the last article I cited claimed was that the evidence of decline became evident in the latter part of the 2010 season. I quote:

Of course, we can blame part or all of this poor performance to the pain in his neck (literally), which may now be resolved?

I think the author has a point, but I would reserve judgment until I see him throw more.

2010 might have been a direct affect of a newer injury, but with that said, he didn't scheduled the procedure right after the season. It's was due to something that came up, if I recall correctly when the team was having their own off-season workouts. I still put a large onus of 2010 on the injuries to others and trying to get everyone on the same page. I remember a throw to White vs. Dallas, Manning throws a timing route, White turns right, the ball goes to the left, and it's picked off and walked back. Once the replacements were getting up to speed, then things returned to normal. That 4 game stretch was bad, and he was pressing, but I don't view that as a direct relation to age/injury. The way he started off last year he wasn't missing a beat, with one of his better starts to a season.

My brother crunched some #'s before and after that Washington game.

Attempts go up, more yards, less TD's, more int's, lower rating, etc.

The offense changed after that Washington game, it became more dink & dunk, than going down field with shorter throws.

Either way it is interesting to look at.

[UndecidedFrog]

2010 might have been a direct affect of a newer injury, but with that said, he didn't scheduled the procedure right after the season. It's was due to something that came up, if I recall correctly when the team was having their own off-season workouts. I still put a large onus of 2010 on the injuries to others and trying to get everyone on the same page. I remember a throw to White vs. Dallas, Manning throws a timing route, White turns right, the ball goes to the left, and it's picked off and walked back. Once the replacements were getting up to speed, then things returned to normal. That 4 game stretch was bad, and he was pressing, but I don't view that as a direct relation to age/injury. The way he started off last year he wasn't missing a beat, with one of his better starts to a season.

A few games does not a trend make. IF PM is able to play again, I would very much like to follow him and see how he performs. If it is with another team, I may even forego judgment for a season, to give him enough time to adjust.

[FireJimCaldwell]

A few games does not a trend make. IF PM is able to play again, I would very much like to follow him and see how he performs. If it is with another team, I may even forego judgment for a season, to give him enough time to adjust.

Well, considering in that 11 int stretch he was still completing over 70 percent of his passes and with his history. I'll put it on the replacements not being up to speed and him pressing more so than a new injury.

If the downward spiral with INT's had come with sub 50% completion %'s and if on film he looked horrible/off then It might warrant it, but I didn't see it with my eyes, and the #'s don't support it out side of an anomaly of interceptions in that 3 game stretch.

The rest of his career will be interesting to say the least.

[Superman]

What the author of the last article I cited claimed was that the evidence of decline became evident in the latter part of the 2010 season. I quote:

No sir. That dog don't hunt.

In Week 9, versus the Eagles, he made his 200th consecutive regular season start — something entirely Manning-like. What wasn’t was the interception with six seconds remaining as the Colts vied for field goal position to win the game. They lost.

We had the ball in our own territory, down two points. Our offense had just gone 78 yards for a touchdown. We got the ball back at the 26 yard line with forty seconds on the clock. Throwing deep to Blair White who was being covered by Asante Samuel on 3rd and long with less than 15 seconds left and no timeouts is a tough throw to complete. The pass got picked off. That's not evidence of decline. That's having your back against the wall and taking a desperation shot to get in field goal range.

In Week 10, he threw for 185 yards and no TDs.

Against a tough defense, with a terrible run game, missing three of his four best offensive weapons. And we won by six.

In Week 11, again while trying to lead the Colts to a game-winning rally, Peyton was intercepted, his third of the game. Even worse, it came against New England.

The fact that it was against New England doesn't lend any weight to the argument.

Beyond that, the offense was still incredibly short-handed, and we had just spent the last eight minutes cutting a 17 point deficit down to three. The beautiful touchdown passes between defenders to the back of the end zone, finding Blair White, don't count? Just the one last pass with 30 seconds on the clock matters, right? Manning was 73% with 396 yards and 4 touchdowns that day.

I will admit, that pass seemed to die on the way to Garcon, and something just never seemed right about it. I don't know. It came out clean, but started to wobble and then fell about five yards short of where it needed to. I said at the time, and have since, that that pass seemed strange.

But let's not be prisoners of one moment. Manning made three bad passes out of 52, and the offense was in a hole right away. One throw in a season of 679 doesn't equal "decline." Plus, it was third down, and if Garcon had adjusted slightly, he could have at least prevented the interception, and we could have kicked the tying field goal.

In Week 12, he was picked off four times.

I suppose it's not worth mentioning that three of the four weren't his fault (including the uncalled pass interference on Reggie Wayne that wound up in an interception returned for a touchdown). Not worth mentioning the fact that this game was the watershed event in which our offensive line woes were fully exposed on national TV, including Jeff Linkenbach being bulldozed into Manning several times. Thirteen carries, 24 yards. One of Manning's worst games, during the absolute worst stretch of his career (interception-wise), but no evidence of decline in this game. Plenty of evidence that the team was terrible at the time, partly due to the injuries on the offensive line and at the skill positions on offense.

Even though the Chargers scored 36 points, this was one of the best defensive performances of the year (seriously).

In Week 13, another four.

Yup. Still no evidence of decline, as Manning was 75% with 365 yards, and two of the interceptions were due to miscommunications with his receivers, not unsightly throws. And there was still zero run game (17 carries, 40 yards), but we wound up with 28 points on offense, and scored two offensive touchdowns in the 4th quarter?

And then, of course, Manning finished in the last four games (all wins) with 67% completions, 9 touchdowns, and 2 interceptions.

I know 2010 seems like the perfect year to point to and claim that Manning was showing signs of decline, but really, it's not. The supervenient factors (injuries, poor run game, poor defense, poor coaching, trying to erase three score deficits, etc.) had much more to do with those interceptions than any issues with his arm. Because outside of those three games (NWE, SD, DAL), Manning threw just 6 interceptions to 25 touchdowns, and he had to carry a pathetically injury-ravaged team to a(nother) division title and ten win season. Then he played one of his best games of the year against the Jets, and we coughed up a two point lead due to silly mistakes by the kickoff team and the coaching staff. The only difference between his MVP season of 2009 and 2010 was one interception. That stretch of bad games proved just how important he was to his team's success, because without three or four bad throws out of 150, we could have gone 13-3 and had a first round bye. He basically had to be perfect every week, and he pretty much was. 450 completions, 4700 yards, 33 touchdowns and a 66% completion rate. That's better than most quarterbacks in their prime.

Gotta do better than "he threw 11 touchdowns in 3 games, so that means he started his decline." I watched those games. He was off a little, but it was hardly because of a decline. He's not in his prime anymore, but his age wasn't the issue.

[Tony Sullivan]

We all know the 2007-2010 team was junk compared to 2002-2005. It's hard to compare what Edge/Marvin/Reggie/Stokley did for Peyton to Reggie/Dallas/Gonzalez/Addai. Manning won 2 MVPs in that latter era because the voters recognized just how heavily he was carrying the team.

[UndecidedFrog]

I know 2010 seems like the perfect year to point to and claim that Manning was showing signs of decline, but really, it's not. The supervenient factors (injuries, poor run game, poor defense, poor coaching, trying to erase three score deficits, etc.) had much more to do with those interceptions than any issues with his arm. Because outside of those three games (NWE, SD, DAL), Manning threw just 6 interceptions to 25 touchdowns, and he had to carry a pathetically injury-ravaged team to a(nother) division title and ten win season. Then he played one of his best games of the year against the Jets, and we coughed up a two point lead due to silly mistakes by the kickoff team and the coaching staff. The only difference between his MVP season of 2009 and 2010 was one interception. That stretch of bad games proved just how important he was to his team's success, because without three or four bad throws out of 150, we could have gone 13-3 and had a first round bye. He basically had to be perfect every week, and he pretty much was. 450 completions, 4700 yards, 33 touchdowns and a 66% completion rate. That's better than most quarterbacks in their prime.

Gotta do better than "he threw 11 touchdowns in 3 games, so that means he started his decline." I watched those games. He was off a little, but it was hardly because of a decline. He's not in his prime anymore, but his age wasn't the issue.

Your apologist counter arguments don't sway me. The author of the article in question provided some key facts, regarding key interceptions in some cases, and lack of passing TDs in other cases. What I don't buy yet, is that a handful of games does not yet make a trend. If I continue to see poor performance beyond a handful of games, perhaps throughout a season or so, then I will begin to think this is a trend.

[subvet]

http://bleacherrepor...-thinking-trade

I agree with this article. It may not work, but we can at least try and see if something can be done to help both sides. In the article the writer is also suggesting we can still trade him to a team Peyton prefers to play for, and still get compensation back for him.

Please no outrageous comments on this thread, its just something I think worth considering so we can better the franchise.

My only issue with the topic is that if so many other teams are willing to work with him, why don't the Colts? I know we will soon have another young turk for a QB but why not move into the "new era" with established leadership and not rush into it blindly trusting that the "experts" were right?

[UndecidedFrog]

My only issue with the topic is that if so many other teams are willing to work with him, why don't the Colts? I know we will soon have another young turk for a QB but why not move into the "new era" with established leadership and not rush into it blindly trusting that the "experts" were right?

The Colts have a history of negotiated deals with PM, including the current one that Irsay says needs to be redone, because it is unlikely that the Colts will agree to pay the $28MM option bonus due March 8.

PM (and his agent Condon) will work with the Colts to the point that the Colts will be forced to release him before March 8, at which time he and his agent will work with other teams who may be interested in his services (if and when he can play).

From my perspective, the only way PM will agree to a re-worked new deal with the Colts is if his stated desire to retire with the Colts (and not play anywhere else in the interim) is more than a PR statement. Otherwise, it behooves PM to wait for the release and entertain all offers.

[bavanlan]

From my perspective, the only way PM will agree to a re-worked new deal with the Colts is if his stated desire to retire with the Colts (and not play anywhere else in the interim) is more than a PR statement. Otherwise, it behooves PM to wait for the release and entertain all offers.

Exactly.

Options are never a bad thing.

[Superman]

Your apologist counter arguments don't sway me. The author of the article in question provided some key facts, regarding key interceptions in some cases, and lack of passing TDs in other cases. What I don't buy yet, is that a handful of games does not yet make a trend. If I continue to see poor performance beyond a handful of games, perhaps throughout a season or so, then I will begin to think this is a trend.

If key interceptions and lack of passing touchdowns = decline, then he started declining in his rookie year.

Call me an apologist all you want; you and the author of this so-called "evidence" are prisoners of the moment, taking into consideration a few bad passes over a five week stretch. It's nonsense.

[UndecidedFrog]

If key interceptions and lack of passing touchdowns = decline, then he started declining in his rookie year.

Call me an apologist all you want; you and the author of this so-called "evidence" are prisoners of the moment, taking into consideration a few bad passes over a five week stretch. It's nonsense.

Rookies improve and then reach their peak performance, from which they then decline.

The question is whether PM, before his injury, was on the left side of the peak or the right side of the peak.

The author of the article in question was making a case that PM is on the right side of the peak at age 34 (at the time).

I am not a prisoner of the moment. I already said that I do not consider what the author has claimed a trend yet. I already stated that it would take much more than a handful of games to determine if this is a true trend. This is evident from my previous post:

What I don't buy yet, is that a handful of games does not yet make a trend. If I continue to see poor performance beyond a handful of games, perhaps throughout a season or so, then I will begin to think this is a trend.

[Superman]

Rookies improve and then reach their peak performance, from which they then decline.

The question is whether PM, before his injury, was on the left side of the peak or the right side of the peak.

The author of the article in question was making a case that PM is on the right side of the peak at age 34 (at the time).

I am not a prisoner of the moment. I already said that I do not consider what the author has claimed a trend yet. I already stated that it would take much more than a handful of games to determine if this is a true trend. This is evident from my previous post:

He was 34. Not in his prime anymore. If the question is whether he's on the left side or the right side, we could answer definitively before 2010 that he was on the right side.

The question, to my mind, is whether he's still able to perform at a high level, not whether he is past his prime. And, to the contrary of the author's argument, he performed at a high level in 2010, even taking that bad stretch into consideration. The idea that he was "declining" because of that bad stretch is just completely and entirely out of touch.

[jedi.creech]

Not happening.

Hey didn't want to start a new topic figured this is discussed somewhere I can't find, but Irsay is saying if Peyton wants to redo a new contract he is still welcome to the Colts it's up to him... In the sense that Manning has the option to leave, and not be traded, what can Manning's agent do IF Manning worked out a new contract where he still can't be traded if he makes a new contract with Colts.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Hey didn't want to start a new topic figured this is discussed somewhere I can't find, but Irsay is saying if Peyton wants to redo a new contract he is still welcome to the Colts it's up to him... In the sense that Manning has the option to leave, and not be traded, what can Manning's agent do IF Manning worked out a new contract where he still can't be traded if he makes a new contract with Colts.

That would be based on the premise of a contract being reconstructed prior to the due date(something I disagree with as a valid option), but playing the hypothetical out, Manning could demand a no-trade clause or Manning has to approve the team, be put into a reconstructed or new deal. Contracts can be as simple or as complicated as the two sides want it to be, but it would still have to fit under the umbrella of the CBA and approved by the NFL.

[jedi.creech]

That would be based on the premise of a contract being reconstructed prior to the due date(something I disagree with as a valid option), but playing the hypothetical out, Manning could demand a no-trade clause or Manning has to approve the team, be put into a reconstructed or new deal. Contracts can be as simple or as complicated as the two sides want it to be, but it would still have to fit under the umbrella of the CBA and approved by the NFL.

Thank you... I feel the "ball in Mannings" court is just Irsay trying to work out a contract that he can trade Manning off next year, wasn't sure if Manning could protect himself... I really hope that if Manning looks at contract, and say no thanks we can see a copy of that contract... As much PR as Irsay has been trying over the last month saying it's up to Manning, I really want to see what Irsay is willing to work with... I would be happy with an incentive based for first year, no trade clause, if his performace is up to 2010 standards remaining 3 years locked in. I think that would be proof Irsay is really doing everything he can, yet protecting his team.

[oldunclemark]

We all know the 2007-2010 team was junk compared to 2002-2005. It's hard to compare what Edge/Marvin/Reggie/Stokley did for Peyton to Reggie/Dallas/Gonzalez/Addai. Manning won 2 MVPs in that latter era because the voters recognized just how heavily he was carrying the team.

Junk might be a little strong but I know what you're saying.

I thought Manning's 2010 season was one of his best because he carried that offense....

Manning had a lot of help in 2002-2005...it wasn't all him

We started Blair White and Jacob Tamme in must-win games at the end of 2010 and we won them.

That's why I think that Peyton (if healthy) could make a contender out of the 2012 team.

[Gavin]

ok I got a couple questions,

1) Manning is owed 28 million if resigned, why not restructure the deal 7 million over four years

2) if he is not reigned can we use that 28 million towards other needs, thats what Im confused about

3) referring to number 1, I would only resign him under that circumstance, its bad business to pay a guy Manning or not 28 million for just a couple years at most

The Colts have been protected on the field with manning long enough its time we build this team into a tough physical hard hitting team something that its not been, the defense is undersized, defense in fact doesw in championships, I dont want to watch Luck feel like he has to put up 30-40 points on the board every week just to give the colts a chance, we need defense