Who likes a challenge? Defend Pagano

[deedub75]

Pagano is still here just to weather the rebuild. 

[Myles]

7 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

 

 

there was no one on this planet, not a single fan here, that could have formulated a valid opinion of his coaching abilities based on the 2012 season.

That is not correct.   We could probably look back and see that most Colts fans thought Arians was the better HC.  

[Jason_]

Just now, Myles said:

That is not correct.   We could probably look back and see that most Colts fans thought Arians was the better HC.  

 

I don't care what they thought at that time.  My point is it wouldn't be a valid opinion because there simply was not enough evidence one way or another to say otherwise. 

[Myles]

16 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I highly doubt that.  First, it can be difficult at times, if not impossible to tell when the coach is talking to someone beside him and when he's talking to someone over the headset unless he actually takes the headset off.  I suspect you're seeing the coach go up to the player after he's already told the replay booth that he needs an answer and is only talking to the player while he waits for them to form a decision.  Second, that just doesn't make sense.  Like i said, it makes no difference whatsoever if the player actually got into the endzone unless there's also a definitive replay to go along with it.  The only reason I would ever approach a player to ask for their opinion is to find out if they know for a fact that they did NOT get in.  I really don't care if they think they got in because it's not about what they think but what can be proven. 

Perhaps you are correct and the HC talks with the player after talking with the booth.  

There was certainly a definitive replay to go along with this one.  

[Jason_]

Just now, Myles said:

Perhaps you are correct and the HC talks with the player after talking with the booth.  

There was certainly a definitive replay to go along with this one.  

 

There definitely was and it was inexcusable that there was no challenge.  Just saying that Mack's is not the opinion I'd be looking for. 

[Myles]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

I don't care what they thought at that time.  My point is it wouldn't be a valid opinion because there simply was not enough evidence one way or another to say otherwise. 

 

I can understand that.    It doesn't negate the fact that Irsay kept the wrong coach.    And continues to keep an incompetent coach.   A coach who cannot remember who he is playing.   

[VaAllDay757]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The refs cannot call for a review.

They can on certain situations

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

They can on certain situations

 

The replay officials can only stop play for a review on turnovers or scoring plays...unless that's another rule change that went under the radar. lol   I'd be shocked if Coffee didn't know that already..pretty sure he was referring to this specific situation.

[VaAllDay757]

Just now, J@son said:

 

The replay officials can only stop play for a review on turnovers or scoring plays...unless that's another rule change that went under the radar. lol  

That's part of certain situations.....

[Coffeedrinker]

3 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

They can on certain situations

No, they can't.  All scoring plays and turnovers are reviewed automatically and then, if they need to look at it closer, they will stop play until they look at it.

 

But neither the officials nor the replay official can call for a review of a non scoring/non turnover play.

[life long]

15 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I highly doubt that.  First, it can be difficult at times, if not impossible to tell when the coach is talking to someone beside him and when he's talking to someone over the headset unless he actually takes the headset off.  I suspect you're seeing the coach go up to the player after he's already told the replay booth that he needs an answer and is only talking to the player while he waits for them to form a decision.  Second, that just doesn't make sense.  Like i said, it makes no difference whatsoever if the player actually got into the endzone unless there's also a definitive replay to go along with it.  The only reason I would ever approach a player to ask for their opinion is to find out if they know for a fact that they did NOT get in.  I really don't care if they think they got in because it's not about what they think but what can be proven. 

The only point that matters is that blunder of a non challenge was definitely coached. Everyone knows if it's that close a call not to run to the line and snap it. A well coached team would use the play clock wisely to let the guys upstairs get a good look. Our guys did the exact opposite. Has to go on mostly chuck. He is the guy with a flag and ability to call timeouts. I have to assume either Chud or Tolzien pushed for a quick snap. Regardless of whose idea it was, Pagano is the HC and responsible for how we play situational football. 

 

Unrelated, I have seen many out blame on Ballard for the current QB situation. IMO unjustly, was not part of the reason grigs was fired due to him telling pags who to play and cut? Pagano sees thing differently than most, he saw Tolzien as a better option than Morris. He told Ballard as much, so Ballard decides to get a guy who could beat ST in chucks eyes. Clearly Chuck did not like Morris as much. It seems many here think Pagano has no control over cuts, but grigson was fired for basically that. If he is fired by seasons end, it opens the discussion of if grigs was the main problem imo...

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

That's part of certain situations.....

 

I edited after posting to be more clear. 

[1959Colts]

https://backdoorslider.com/2017/09/10/sorry-chuck-but-its-time-to-go/

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, life long said:

The only point that matters is that blunder of a non challenge was definitely coached. Everyone knows if it's that close a call not to run to the line and snap it. A well coached team would use the play clock wisely to let the guys upstairs get a good look. Our guys did the exact opposite. Has to go on mostly chuck. He is the guy with a flag and ability to call timeouts. I have to assume either Chud or Tolzien pushed for a quick snap. Regardless of whose idea it was, Pagano is the HC and responsible for how we play situational football. 

 

 

 

I agree with all of the above.

 

Quote

Unrelated, I have seen many out blame on Ballard for the current QB situation. IMO unjustly, was not part of the reason grigs was fired due to him telling pags who to play and cut? Pagano sees thing differently than most, he saw Tolzien as a better option than Morris. He told Ballard as much, so Ballard decides to get a guy who could beat ST in chucks eyes. Clearly Chuck did not like Morris as much. It seems many here think Pagano has no control over cuts, but grigson was fired for basically that. If he is fired by seasons end, it opens the discussion of if grigs was the main problem imo...

 

 

Part of the reason  Grigs was fired was for telling Pags who to play (per sources) but not who to cut.  Generally the GM has final say on roster moves (who to sign, who to cut etc) but the HC has final say on the depth chart.  The reports about Grigson was that he was forcing depth chart moves on Pagano as well as forcing Pep on him...among other things.

[Coffeedrinker]

12 minutes ago, Myles said:

That is not correct.   We could probably look back and see that most Colts fans thought Arians was the better HC.  

So what.  Many, perhaps even most Colts fans wanted the Colts to draft RGIII, most fans wanted to get rid of Reggie Wayne after 2 years, most Colts fans thought TY Hilton was not a #1 WR, most Colts fans thought the coaches were desperate when on opening day, they started a rookie 6th round pick from Howard at safety.  Most fans wanted the Colts to sign Zuttah at center, most fans thought the Colts wasted a 5th round pick on an undersized DE from a small school. At one point most fans thought Roy Hall was going to be a 1000 yard receiver for the Colts.

 

Point is, while there are some very intelligent and football savy people on this forum, when they become part of "most fans" they are usually wrong.

[RockThatBlue]

He is an average coach who will win games we shouldn't, and lay stinkers that we shouldn't like yesterday.

 

That said, I don't think its really possible to say he should stay the coach. He's just not good enough.

[Superman]

41 minutes ago, Myles said:

You are making an assumption just as I am.    Even you admit that firing him after the 2015 season would have been the right thing to do.

Do you deny that Arians seemed like the better coach of the 2?    At least 2/3 fans thought so.   Turns out that they were right and Irsay was wrong.    Maybe I just want to believe that Irsay kept him because of his illness and not because he can't judge a coach as good as the fans.   

 

Thanks for trying to defend Pagano though.   No one else could step up and do it.   

 

Defending 2012-2014 Pagano is different than defending 2017 Pagano. There was no reason to think about firing Pagano in 2012, or through 2014, really. 

 

I don't think Arians seemed like a better coach in 2012, because he was steering the ship on the course Pagano had spent 8 months setting. I don't think your 2/3 fans claim is scientific at all. And I don't think Irsay was wrong to keep Pagano over Arians; I don't think Arians is as good as people think he is, and I wouldn't have wanted him as the head coach. Still don't; I don't like his offense. They blew a 4th quarter lead yesterday in their Detroit opener, just like the Colts did last year. They won 7 games last year in a weaker division than the Colts, with a better roster. The legend of Bruce Arians is outsized on this board, because people think he should have been kept instead of Pagano. 

 

I'm not making an assumption, my statement is based on facts. You hire your coach in January, he gets sick after three games. All the reasons you hired him still exist.

 

And if you had said Irsay kept Pagano instead of Arians after 2012, I would still disagree, but I wouldn't have called it out. Acting like Irsay has refused to fire Pagano in the years to follow just because he had cancer in 2012 is what I decided to react to. 

 

[Myles]

17 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

So what.  Many, perhaps even most Colts fans wanted the Colts to draft RGIII,

 

I think you are remembering it wrong.     Luck was clearly wanted by most fans.

 

But we are getting off subject.    Is there any defense for Pagano's coaching yesterday?

[Myles]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Defending 2012-2014 Pagano is different than defending 2017 Pagano. There was no reason to think about firing Pagano in 2012, or through 2014, really. 

 

I don't think Arians seemed like a better coach in 2012, because he was steering the ship on the course Pagano had spent 8 months setting. I don't think your 2/3 fans claim is scientific at all. And I don't think Irsay was wrong to keep Pagano over Arians; I don't think Arians is as good as people think he is, and I wouldn't have wanted him as the head coach. Still don't; I don't like his offense. They blew a 4th quarter lead yesterday in their Detroit opener, just like the Colts did last year. They won 7 games last year in a weaker division than the Colts, with a better roster. The legend of Bruce Arians is outsized on this board, because people think he should have been kept instead of Pagano. 

 

 

 

 

You should have said 2015-2017 Pagano.   Why did you skip a couple poorly coached seasons?

I recall Arians teams being better prepared than Pagano's teams.   Maybe Arians is overrated, but even so, he is head and shoulders better than Pagano.  

[RockThatBlue]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

I can't.

 

Jim Irsay said he expected Pagano to have his best year as a coach. He's not off to a good start.

 

Preparation: They knew it was a long shot for Luck to be ready Week 1, and they had all preseason to get Tolzien ready. They didn't. They failed to even properly evaluate him, because they treated him like an entrenched starter rather than an inexperienced and limited backup. That misplaced confidence in him likely led to him winning the job all the way back to OTAs, which has proved to be a mistake top to bottom. If the lack of urgency that I perceived in preseason was influencing decisions throughout the offseason, then they really shot themselves in the foot. Then they got destroyed by a not-so-good team (we think; the Rams might wind up being better than expected, but yesterday was probably not a good judge of that). For the fourth year in a row, they lose the opener, the game for which you have the most time to prepare. 

 

Game management: Pagano has had issues with this in the past, from poorly timed timeouts to bad challenges. Situational decision making is even more critical when you're playing with one hand tied behind your back -- starting QB out, starting OL a jumbled mess, banged up secondary -- and Pagano blew the one big opportunity to show that he had a good grasp on this. You should be eager to challenge plays that affect the score, especially in the first half, on the road, with a backup QB. Instead, they went hurry-up and probably didn't even see a good replay to make a decision. 

 

The Colts might turn it around this week and have a great year. But as of right now, it would be disingenuous of me to even try to defend Pagano. And even if I did try, I wouldn't know where to start.

 

Chance of Pagano returning in 2018, as of right now: 5%

Great post. Summed it up well.

 

I could not believe he didn't challenge it. Hell, he RUSHED to do another play. One of the most incompetent moments I've seen by a Colts coach. Baffling decision making is becoming a stamp of the Pagano era. This is his 6th year, and he is still making the same dumb mistakes.

[Jason_]

Just now, Myles said:

You should have said 2015-2017 Pagano.   Why did you skip a couple poorly coached seasons?

I recall Arians teams being better prepared than Pagano's teams.   Maybe Arians is overrated, but even so, he is head and shoulders better than Pagano.  

 

because the 2015 Colts were not a poorly coached team.  Without Luck, Pagano still took the team to an 8-8 record with a 6-3 record without Luck and that was with an inferior roster imo than we currently have save for the obvious..MH was far better than ST.

[Myles]

5 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

because the 2015 Colts were not a poorly coached team.  Without Luck, Pagano still took the team to an 8-8 record with a 6-3 record without Luck and that was with an inferior roster imo than we currently have save for the obvious..MH was far better than ST.

I agree that the team overachieved that year and until recently I was one of the few Pagano supporters on here.   He lost me though.   Even in 2015 there were articles about how Pagano was the worst NFL coach at challenges.    He obviously hasn't improved.   

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

Great post. Summed it up well.

 

I could not believe he didn't challenge it. Hell, he RUSHED to do another play. One of the most incompetent moments I've seen by a Colts coach. Baffling decision making is becoming a stamp of the Pagano era. This is his 6th year, and he is still making the same dumb mistakes.

 

I doubt Pagano rushed it, I think Chud or Tolzien rushed it. I assume they had situations where they wanted to try to catch the Rams off guard by going fast, and sudden goal line was one of them. Pagano should have stopped it, clearly, using a timeout if he had to, then challenging the play. That's Andy Reid style game management (he's been notoriously bad with challenges and timeouts for a long time), but even that would have been better than what they did. Even if you lose the challenge and burn two timeouts, you're better off than what they did. First half, you can take that chance.

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I agree that the team overachieved that year and until recently I was one of the few Pagano supporters on here.   He lost me though.   Even in 2015 there were articles about how Pagano was the worst NFL coach at challenges.    He obviously hasn't improved.   

 

I've also been one of his biggest supporters...well...defenders.  Mostly done with that now, but I'm not going to be a revisionist either and say that he's been terrible his entire time here.  I bet those articles you're remembering from 2015 were mostly from BleacherReport.

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

You should have said 2015-2017 Pagano.   Why did you skip a couple poorly coached seasons?

I recall Arians teams being better prepared than Pagano's teams.   Maybe Arians is overrated, but even so, he is head and shoulders better than Pagano.  

 

The Colts staff actually impressed me in 2015, going 6-3 without Luck. And still, I would have moved on, and I'm on the record at the time. I did not think they showed the ability to lead a perennial title contender, and if it were up to me, I would have cleaned house. 

 

Also, don't mistake me not being critical of 2016 Pagano with me defending 2016 Pagano. And if you wish, you can find plenty of instances of me being critical of the 2016 staff, so let's not nitpick my choice of years. 

 

Really, though, it's the way the staff has handled the 2017 season to this point that I find indefensible, as I said in my first post. Not sure how that critique of the staff turned into me being a Pagano defender. I just think you're being unreasonable.

 

You can rate Arians however you want; I did not and still do not want him, and I was and am glad he did a great job in 2012 and left in 2013. Just like there are better coaches than Pagano, there are better coaches than Arians; I want one of them.

[Dingus McGirt]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The Colts staff actually impressed me in 2015, going 6-3 without Luck. And still, I would have moved on, and I'm on the record at the time. I did not think they showed the ability to lead a perennial title contender, and if it were up to me, I would have cleaned house. 

 

Also, don't mistake me not being critical of 2016 Pagano with me defending 2016 Pagano. And if you wish, you can find plenty of instances of me being critical of the 2016 staff, so let's not nitpick my choice of years. 

 

Really, though, it's the way the staff has handled the 2017 season to this point that I find indefensible, as I said in my first post. Not sure how that critique of the staff turned into me being a Pagano defender. I just think you're being unreasonable.

 

You can rate Arians however you want; I did not and still do not want him, and I was and am glad he did a great job in 2012 and left in 2013. Just like there are better coaches than Pagano, there are better coaches than Arians; I want one of them.

Who are they, Supe?  Not being critical - just want some of your 'super' insight.

 

[Myles]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The Colts staff actually impressed me in 2015, going 6-3 without Luck. And still, I would have moved on, and I'm on the record at the time. I did not think they showed the ability to lead a perennial title contender, and if it were up to me, I would have cleaned house. 

 

Also, don't mistake me not being critical of 2016 Pagano with me defending 2016 Pagano. And if you wish, you can find plenty of instances of me being critical of the 2016 staff, so let's not nitpick my choice of years. 

 

Really, though, it's the way the staff has handled the 2017 season to this point that I find indefensible, as I said in my first post. Not sure how that critique of the staff turned into me being a Pagano defender. I just think you're being unreasonable.

 

You can rate Arians however you want; I did not and still do not want him, and I was and am glad he did a great job in 2012 and left in 2013. Just like there are better coaches than Pagano, there are better coaches than Arians; I want one of them.

Fair enough.    I would trade Pagano for Arians in a heartbeat though.   Moreso, we just need Pagano to leave.   1-5 in season openers is enough to show me that he cannot adequately prepare a team.  

[Coffeedrinker]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I think you are remembering it wrong.     Luck was clearly wanted by most fans.

 

But we are getting off subject.    Is there any defense for Pagano's coaching yesterday?

That's still not the subject, you were talking about 2012/2013 when the Colts decided to keep pags as the head coach and let Arians pursue other opportunities.

 

[life long]

57 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I agree with all of the above.

 

 

 

Part of the reason  Grigs was fired was for telling Pags who to play (per sources) but not who to cut.  Generally the GM has final say on roster moves (who to sign, who to cut etc) but the HC has final say on the depth chart.  The reports about Grigson was that he was forcing depth chart moves on Pagano as well as forcing Pep on him...among other things.

I believe if a HC says to the GM the guy can't play, the gm wont keep the guy. I am happy grigs is gone, but I just have seen pags get too many passes. Some have hinted that Ballard did not give Pagano good enough players. I argue maybe both GMs have given Pagano exactly who he wanted, and he just is not good at player development and pure x's and o's. Was it not Pep who coached Luck into league leading TD's and AFCCG? If so, maybe grigson went against chucks wishes for the better of the team? 

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, life long said:

I believe if a HC says to the GM the guy can't play, the gm wont keep the guy. I am happy grigs is gone, but I just have seen pags get too many passes. Some have hinted that Ballard did not give Pagano good enough players. I argue maybe both GMs have given Pagano exactly who he wanted, and he just is not good at player development and pure x's and o's. Was it not Pep who coached Luck into league leading TD's and AFCCG? If so, maybe grigson went against chucks wishes for the better of the team? 

 

I don't buy that at all.  Erik Walden, Darius Butler, Mike Adams, Vontae Davis, among several others have all had their best seasons playing for Pagano.  Jerrell Freeman has an NFL career now after playing for Pagano. 

 

Chuck has made some bad decisions and no, he hasn't been able to coach up/develop every single player that plays for him (no coach ever has though) but evidence does not support the notion that he does not possess the ability to develop players. 

[life long]

3 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I don't buy that at all.  Erik Walden, Darius Butler, Mike Adams, Vontae Davis, among several others have all had their best seasons playing for Pagano.  Jerrell Freeman has an NFL career now after playing for Pagano. 

 

Chuck has made some bad decisions and no, he hasn't been able to coach up/develop every single player that plays for him (no coach ever has though) but evidence does not support the notion that he does not possess the ability to develop players. 

Every single one of those players started their careers with different coaches, even Freeman in the CFL. If anything those were veteran grigson signings, IMO. 

 

Letting Freeman walk still annoys me...

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, life long said:

Every single one of those players started their careers with different coaches, even Freeman in the CFL. If anything those were veteran grigson signings, IMO. 

 

and?  they were still players who came here to the Colts and improved their play while here.  that's the very (simplified) definition of player development, is it not?  Doesn't matter where or how you find them.

[UKColt13]

I've never been a fervent supporter or outer of Pagano. But after that game and the sheer incompetence it showed?

 

#PaganoOut

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Who are they, Supe?  Not being critical - just want some of your 'super' insight.

 

 

I think it's going to be Dave Toub, based on his connection with Ballard. I'm not over the moon about that; we have a coach who struggles with game management, I don't want to hire a coach who does nothing with game management now. But he has a really good reputation around the league.

 

Josh McDaniels. Probably the hottest prospect in the league right now. Mike McCoy, former Chargers head coach, who has run multiple offenses with multiple respected offensive minds, including Peyton Manning. Tom Clements, Green Bay assistant. Teryl Austin, Lions DC. Kris Richard, Seahawks DC (connection to the two Seattle front office guys Ballard hired). Others will emerge as the season goes on. 

[VaAllDay757]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No, they can't.  All scoring plays and turnovers are reviewed automatically and then, if they need to look at it closer, they will stop play until they look at it.

 

But neither the officials nor the replay official can call for a review of a non scoring/non turnover play.

Not all turnovers especially fumbles it all depends if it's a clear indication or not

[Jason_]

5 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

Not all turnovers especially fumbles it all depends if it's a clear indication or not

 

All turnovers are automatically reviewed by league officials. If they're 100% confirmed then play continues and the on field ref doesn't go under the hood. If there is any doubt, they call down to the official on the field and it goes officially under review. 

[VaAllDay757]

4 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

All turnovers are automatically reviewed by league officials. If they're 100% confirmed then play continues and the on field ref doesn't go under the hood. If there is any doubt, they call down to the official on the field and it goes officially under review. 

Yeah but not everything is 100% tho....there are times when the refs don't catch and the coach gets the word saying you need to challenge it that's what happens it's happen alot of times before

[BR-549]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

Fair enough.    I would trade Pagano for Arians in a heartbeat though.   Moreso, we just need Pagano to leave.   1-5 in season openers is enough to show me that he cannot adequately prepare a team.  

I have been somewhat neutral about coach Pagano but I am quickly leaning toward the lets move on side of things.

 

Not only 1-5, but all the games (don't have a stat but you know what I am saying) that we seem to be sluggish until the third quarter.  Almost like the entire team just woke up from a nap right before kickoff.... that is coaching, or a lack of I should say.  Although I will add that if you can't get fired up and ready to go before a game then why are you playing, but to argue that.... when a game plan starts failing early in the game, it can take wind out of your sail.

 

idk.... wth... we suck

[B~Town]

1 hour ago, J@son said:

 

I don't buy that at all.  Erik Walden, Darius Butler, Mike Adams, Vontae Davis, among several others have all had their best seasons playing for Pagano.  Jerrell Freeman has an NFL career now after playing for Pagano. 

 

Chuck has made some bad decisions and no, he hasn't been able to coach up/develop every single player that plays for him (no coach ever has though) but evidence does not support the notion that he does not possess the ability to develop players. 

I agree it is a very short list of players that left Indy and had more success . 

[Jason_]

12 minutes ago, VaAllDay757 said:

Yeah but not everything is 100% tho....there are times when the refs don't catch and the coach gets the word saying you need to challenge it that's what happens it's happen alot of times before

 

It used to. But coaches cannot challenge on a scoring play or turnover anymore. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_replay_in_American_and_Canadian_football

 

 

I know its wiki but I'm sure a more thorough search would return the same results from official sites. 

 

So, all scoring plays and turnovers are automatically reviewed, but they're not all challenged. But that's all determined by officials. If a coach throws the challenge flag on that type of play they'll get a penalty.