Good Article On What Colts Should Do

[BProland85]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1052955-2012-nfl-draft-the-indianapolis-colts-should-release-peyton-manning

I agree with the majority of this article as I feel that it is better to start rebuilding now while we have the opportunity to draft the best QB prospect in over a decade. Plus releasing Manning, Saturday, Wayne, Brackett, and Clark will open up lots of opportunities to sign young stud free agents like Carl Nicks and not be strapped by Manning or Freeney's contract anymore once we trade/restructure Freeney.

[UndecidedFrog]

The article brings up a very good point about how the failure to renew your aging players on a team can doom a franchise when the "edifice collapses".

I agree with that point. I trust Jim Irsay and Grigson (with some input from the coaching staff) to determine which pieces need to be renewed and replaced.

[CantBeStopped]

Just so you know releasing brackett will cost more against thr cap than keeping him

[seeblu]

The scroll running across the bottom on ESPN said that Peyton would be willing to restructure his contract that would require very little if any money up front.

[JimJaime]

Hmm Clark,Gronk, and Hernandez on the same team lol 3 TE set lol

[seeblu]

The scroll running across the bottom on ESPN said that Peyton would be willing to restructure his contract that would require very little if any money up front.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7543001/peyton-manning-flexible-deal-demands-sources-say

[Chris Carpenter]

We restructure Freeney keep brackett for cap purposes and get rid of the other players that are costing us way to much. As far as Peyton goes, i am a Colts fan, whatever is best for the team. If he can restructure and does, to fit how much time he actually plays that is great. If not, we should let him go. Luck is the future of the franchise, as well as hopefully better draft days for Grigson. Polian was hit and miss, he made some good calls at first but went downhill later. If we can make some good moves we could be in contention in 3-4 years not 6-7. GO COLTS!!

[oldunclemark]

http://bleacherrepor...-peyton-manning

I agree with the majority of this article as I feel that it is better to start rebuilding now while we have the opportunity to draft the best QB prospect in over a decade. Plus releasing Manning, Saturday, Wayne, Brackett, and Clark will open up lots of opportunities to sign young stud free agents like Carl Nicks and not be strapped by Manning or Freeney's contract anymore once we trade/restructure Freeney.

I understand what they're saying but it all assumes that you can predict the future.

Some teams (like Dallas or Washington) take decades to recover from rebuilding..

I think when you have a verteran team Like the LA Lakers or San Antonio Spurs..you need to milk every last year out of those great vets..

Its no crime to rebuild too late..but to dismantle and rebuild after one bad year could toss away a couple of playoff runs.,.

...and you can win with 10-6....9-7 won the Super Bowl this year

[UndecidedFrog]

I understand what they're saying but it all assumes that you can predict the future.

Some teams (like Dallas or Washington) take decades to recover from rebuilding..

I think when you have a verteran team Like the LA Lakers or San Antonio Spurs..you need to milk every last year out of those great vets..

Its no crime to rebuild too late..but to dismantle and rebuild after one bad year could toss away a couple of playoff runs.,.

...and you can win with 10-6....9-7 won the Super Bowl this year

I see your perspective. However, I am in favor of demolishing the side of the house to fix the foundation, instead of waiting for the side of the house to collapse, then attempt to fix it. Short-term SB winning probabilities must be weighed against the Long-term SB winning probabilities. One thing we know for sure, given our experience this past season, is that PM cannot play forever. Another thing, which is not quite known, is how rare we will find ourselves in a position to have the #1 overall pick. The last time we had it was in 1998, when we drafted an unknown quantity at QB to replace Captain Comeback.

Also what is not known with any degree of certainty, is how often a highly-rated QB, one that is thought of as the best QB prospect since Manning/Elway, comes available in the draft.

It seems that providence has coalesced to provide the Colts with this incredibly lucky (pun intended) situation.

[wercolts]

The scroll running across the bottom on ESPN said that Peyton would be willing to restructure his contract that would require very little if any money up front.

More reliable sources from Shefter. Until he can say his source is Tom Condon or Peyton Manning his credibility will continue to be questionable.

[UndecidedFrog]

More reliable sources from Shefter. Until he can say his source is Tom Condon or Peyton Manning his credibility will continue to be questionable.

Congratulations. You can now join me in the Debbie Downer club for refusing to believe (positive) speculation.

[04DarkShadowGT]

Just so you know releasing brackett will cost more against thr cap than keeping him

I would suspect that is for other teams, not including Indy.

[DILLIGAFER]

Congratulations. You can now join me in the Debbie Downer club for refusing to believe (positive) speculation.

is that you dn??

[DILLIGAFER]

http://bleacherrepor...-peyton-manning

I agree with the majority of this article as I feel that it is better to start rebuilding now while we have the opportunity to draft the best QB prospect in over a decade. Plus releasing Manning, Saturday, Wayne, Brackett, and Clark will open up lots of opportunities to sign young stud free agents like Carl Nicks and not be strapped by Manning or Freeney's contract anymore once we trade/restructure Freeney.

got one thing to add, if you think Bleacher has good ideas, it may be a good idea to keep that idea to yourself.. just sayin. he has a notorious reputation for being wrong and a Colts hater. :stats:

[Coffeedrinker]

I see your perspective. However, I am in favor of demolishing the side of the house to fix the foundation, instead of waiting for the side of the house to collapse, then attempt to fix it.

Your analogy is incorrect. Manning/Freeney/Wayne/Brackett (to a lesser extent)/Clark are not the side of the house, they ARE the foundation. So, to continue with your analogy, you want to destroy the foundation that has supported the structure for multiple years in hopes of building another foundation that is as good or better.

Short-term SB winning probabilities must be weighed against the Long-term SB winning probabilities.

This 2012 draft has very little effect on the long term SB winning probabilities. Although getting rid of several key players will have an immediate impact on the short term. There have been 46 Superbowl winning teams who did not have Andrew Luck on their team. There have been 45 that did not have Peyton Manning. QB is not the only position that matters for SB victories.

One thing we know for sure, given our experience this past season, is that PM cannot play forever.

Actually I knew that before last year.

Another thing, which is not quite known, is how rare we will find ourselves in a position to have the #1 overall pick.

I think that is pretty well known as well.

The last time we had it was in 1998, when we drafted an unknown quantity at QB to replace Captain Comeback.

Really? Who was that? :rolleyes:

Also what is not known with any degree of certainty, is how often a highly-rated QB, one that is thought of as the best QB prospect since Manning/Elway, comes available in the draft.

The comparisons to Elway and Manning are because of his ability to read D. And I, personally think Luck is the best QB to come out in a long time but every year there is the next great QB and they don't always work out.

It seems that providence has coalesced to provide the Colts with this incredibly lucky (pun intended) situation.

I'm all for drafting Luck. I just don't think you get rid of the greatest QB to ever play the game for a rookie (no matter how highly touted), especially of the plan is to get rid of a lot of the talent that the greatest QB to ever play the game had with him.

The nice thing about the NFL is there are a bunch of kids who want to play and a bunch of colleges that try to get them ready. And one player is not going to make or break the long term SB probabilities.

[UndecidedFrog]

I'm all for drafting Luck. I just don't think you get rid of the greatest QB to ever play the game for a rookie (no matter how highly touted), especially of the plan is to get rid of a lot of the talent that the greatest QB to ever play the game had with him.

You get rid of the greatest QB to ever play the game when he can no longer play to the level that is expected by his team's management.

It has nothing to do with drafting his eventual replacement.

Drafting Luck or not drafting Luck will have no effect on PM's nerve regenerating any faster or slower. PM's nerve will be what it will be regardless.

[Fx Stryker]

However, I am in favor of demolishing the side of the house to fix the foundation, instead of waiting for the side of the house to collapse, then attempt to fix it

How do you fix a foundation if it removed completely?

[UndecidedFrog]

How do you fix a foundation if it removed completely?

If it is removed completely, build a new one.

[Coffeedrinker]

You get rid of the greatest QB to ever play the game when he can no longer play to the level that is expected by his team's management.

It has nothing to do with drafting his eventual replacement.

Drafting Luck or not drafting Luck will have no effect on PM's nerve regenerating any faster or slower. PM's nerve will be what it will be regardless.

That's right, right now you are making assumptions and deciding (or basing your opinion on) what should be done based on inadequate, incomplete and often times, misleading information.

[Fx Stryker]

If it is removed completely, build a new one.

That isn't fixing. That would be building a new one. Poor choice of words.

[Coltsagent]

That entire article is about money, this is NOT about money

[UndecidedFrog]

That's right, right now you are making assumptions and deciding (or basing your opinion on) what should be done based on inadequate, incomplete and often times, misleading information.

You are mistaken. I am not making any assumptions as to the condition of Peyton's nerve.

However, I do know certain facts.

They are:

1) PM will be 36 years old this upcoming season. If PM retires shortly after the Colts pay him the option bonus, the cap hit will be $ 38.4MM or 32% of the team total cap.

2) PM is still rehabbing aggressively in hopes that his nerve regenerates.

3) If we enter the 2012 season with the Painter/Orlovsky/Collins plan again, and PM is not good to go, we will end up pretty much the same way as last season.

4) It is not often that the Colts have the #1 overall pick in the draft

5) It is not often that the #1 draft prospect is a QB so highly rated, that he has been crowned the best QB prospect since PM.

6) The owner of the team has stated that the team is rebuilding, and has replaced the GM, the HC and most of the coaching/training staff.

7) The owner of the team has stated that there are salary cap problems 3 times within one interview.

So regardless of PM's nerve condition, and based on the facts I know above, I can make an educated recommendation that the rebuilding plan should be a tear-down, and not just a face-lift, as others have suggested.

You can come to a different conclusion. But you really cannot argue the facts.

[Fx Stryker]

You get rid of the greatest QB to ever play the game when he can no longer play to the level that is expected by his team's management.

It has nothing to do with drafting his eventual replacement.

Drafting Luck or not drafting Luck will have no effect on PM's nerve regenerating any faster or slower. PM's nerve will be what it will be regardless.

That's right, right now you are making assumptions and deciding (or basing your opinion on) what should be done based on inadequate, incomplete and often times, misleading information.

Probably the truest statement. You haven't seen Manning throw the ball. We have only heard La Canfora say his nerve is not healed. Until we see ourselves we can't say his nerves aren't healed because we don't know factually.

[UndecidedFrog]

That isn't fixing. That would be building a new one. Poor choice of words.

Then it's your poor choice of words. You provided the scenario of "if it is removed completely". Those were your words, not mine.

[Coffeedrinker]

You are mistaken. I am not making any assumptions as to the condition of Peyton's nerve.

However, I do know certain facts.

They are:

1) PM will be 36 years old this upcoming season. If PM retires shortly after the Colts pay him the option bonus, the cap hit will be $ 38.4MM or 32% of the team total cap.

2) PM is still rehabbing aggressively in hopes that his nerve regenerates.

3) If we enter the 2012 season with the Painter/Orlovsky/Collins plan again, and PM is not good to go, we will end up pretty much the same way as last season.

4) It is not often that the Colts have the #1 overall pick in the draft

5) It is not often that the #1 draft prospect is a QB so highly rated, that he has been crowned the best QB prospect since PM.

6) The owner of the team has stated that the team is rebuilding, and has replaced the GM, the HC and most of the coaching/training staff.

7) The owner of the team has stated that there are salary cap problems 3 times within one interview.

So regardless of PM's nerve condition, and based on the facts I know above, I can make an educated recommendation that the rebuilding plan should be a tear-down, and not just a face-lift, as others have suggested.

You can come to a different conclusion. But you really cannot argue the facts.

Those are some of the facts that is true (except #2, explained below)

Also some other facts that you are overlooking.

Fact #1 36 is not terribly old for a QB who, throughout his career, has been hit fewer times that most QBs.

Fact #2 He's not rehabbing in hopes of his nerve regenerating, he's rehabbing to be himself when he's on the football field. Big difference.

Fact #3 The owner has stated numerous times that Manning will be a Colt if; A) He wants to be and B) His health permits it. If Manning works with them on the cap.

Fact #4 Manning has stated he's willing to do a cap friendly deal.

Fact #5 The same owner has stated the Colts are not going going to have O, Painter and Collins behind Manning again. Actually he's been quite vocal about the need for an effective signal caller behind Manning.

Fact #6 You are basing your opinion on what the Colts should do without all the facts. The two biggest facts being the health of Peyton and your belief that Luck will be a Superbowl caliber QB.

[UndecidedFrog]

Those are some of the facts that is true (except #2, explained below)

Also some other facts that you are overlooking.

Fact #1 36 is not terribly old for a QB who, throughout his career, has been hit fewer times that most QBs.

Fact #2 He's not rehabbing in hopes of his nerve regenerating, he's rehabbing to be himself when he's on the football field. Big difference.

Fact #3 The owner has stated numerous times that Manning will be a Colt if; A) He wants to be and B) His health permits it. If Manning works with them on the cap.

Fact #4 Manning has stated he's willing to do a cap friendly deal.

Fact #5 The same owner has stated the Colts are not going going to have O, Painter and Collins behind Manning again. Actually he's been quite vocal about the need for an effective signal caller behind Manning.

Fact #6 You are basing your opinion on what the Colts should do without all the facts. The two biggest facts being the health of Peyton and your belief that Luck will be a Superbowl caliber QB.

Not quite true.

1) 36 is getting on the older side of QBs. The oldest QB to win a SB was Elway at 38. PM's current contract runs until he is 40. I would be interested to learn the average age at which NFL QBs retire. I would guess around 34-35. And I am willing to bet that it isn't 40 or above.

2) He is rehabbing aggressively so that he can return to the pre-injury form that is expected of him. He will always be himself at all times, and there is no need to rehab to become himself.

3) Yes, the owner of the team has stated that PM will be a colt if

a) he wants to be. However, we don't know what the owner means by this. Must agreeing to a significantly reduced contract demonstrate this desire for Mr. Irsay to agree that he wants to be?

b) his is "healthy" enough to be.... However, we don't know what Irsay means by this. From his Friday tweet, we know he does not interpret "healthy" to mean the neurosurgeons issuing the medical clearance to play football. Does Irsay intend healthy to mean that PM is back to his pre-injury performance form? I don't know.

c) There is no credible evidence to suggest that PM is working with Irsay on the cap issues.

4) This is not a fact. Manning has not stated that he is willing to do a cap friendly deal. Instead, it has been reported that he is, with no sources, no quotes, etc. unreliable **male cow patties**

5) I do not know if this is fact. I have not read anything about Mr. Irsay saying that Orlovsky, or Painter will be back or not. Can you provide a link?

6) I am basing my opinion on what the Colts should do given what I know as facts from my previous post.

I do not base my opinions on things which I don't know.

I don't know if Peyton is able to perform at his pre-injury level now or at any time in the future. I doubt you do either.

I don't know if Luck will be a superbowl caliber QB.

[Superman]

Not quite true.

1) 36 is getting on the older side of QBs. The oldest QB to win a SB was Elway at 38. PM's current contract runs until he is 40. I would be interested to learn the average age at which NFL QBs retire. I would guess around 34-35. And I am willing to bet that it isn't 40 or above.

The average quarterback isn't a four-time MVP who is within a few seasons of breaking some pretty significant all-time records. None of this is to suggest that the Colts should keep him just because of past accomplishments. I'm just saying that when Trent Dilfer is trying to get back from an achilles injury so that he can continue being a #2 quarterback, that's a little bit different from Peyton Manning trying to regain his arm strength so that he can continue being one of the best of all time. Even Kurt Warner played through a bunch of injuries until he was 39, and that's after bouncing around to a bunch of different teams to regain his elite status. Elway was 39 when he won his second Super Bowl.

I'd also add that there are a lot of quarterbacks who never reach a decent level of play, and get washed out. Of quarterbacks who spend five or more consecutive years as a starter, your 34-35 is probably on the low end.

Even if the average quarterback retires at 35, Peyton Manning is most decidedly NOT average. At 35, he was throwing for 4,500 yards and 33 touchdowns. And that's before you mention the fact that, before September, he had NEVER missed a game. You can't put him on the same scale as other players.

[UndecidedFrog]

The average quarterback isn't a four-time MVP who is within a few seasons of breaking some pretty significant all-time records. None of this is to suggest that the Colts should keep him just because of past accomplishments. I'm just saying that when Trent Dilfer is trying to get back from an achilles injury so that he can continue being a #2 quarterback, that's a little bit different from Peyton Manning trying to regain his arm strength so that he can continue being one of the best of all time. Even Kurt Warner played through a bunch of injuries until he was 39, and that's after bouncing around to a bunch of different teams to regain his elite status. Elway was 39 when he won his second Super Bowl.

I don't think being an MVP correlates at all with extending your QB career. Or do you have some evidence to back up this correlation?

I'd also add that there are a lot of quarterbacks who never reach a decent level of play, and get washed out. Of quarterbacks who spend five or more consecutive years as a starter, your 34-35 is probably on the low end.

Even if the average quarterback retires at 35, Peyton Manning is most decidedly NOT average. At 35, he was throwing for 4,500 yards and 33 touchdowns. And that's before you mention the fact that, before September, he had NEVER missed a game. You can't put him on the same scale as other players.

So you are making a claim that a QB career expectancy is positively correlated with how well they are rated? This is a testable hypothesis, and someone can do a retrospective analysis to see if this is true.

I think that a highly rated QB has pretty much the same probability to sustain a career-ending injury as a not-so-highly-rated QB. The inconstant factors that come into play are OL quality for protection, the propensity of the QB in question to rush, the relative mobility of the QB in question, the quality of the team an otherwise highly-rated QB would be drafted into, etc.

Until I see some good evidence, it is just unevidenced claims. As such, I put PM on the same scale as all other QBs, because he is, afterall, a NFL QB. The more you attempt to isolate him into smaller cohort groups, the less confidence the statistic becomes because of sample size.

[Coltsagent]

I don't think being an MVP correlates at all with extending your QB career. Or do you have some evidence to back up this correlation?

So you are making a claim that a QB career expectancy is positively correlated with how well they are rated? This is a testable hypothesis, and someone can do a retrospective analysis to see if this is true.

I think that a highly rated QB has pretty much the same probability to sustain a career-ending injury as a not-so-highly-rated QB. The inconstant factors that come into play are OL quality for protection, the propensity of the QB in question to rush, the relative mobility of the QB in question, the quality of the team an otherwise highly-rated QB would be drafted into, etc.

Until I see some good evidence, it is just unevidenced claims. As such, I put PM on the same scale as all other QBs, because he is, afterall, a NFL QB. The more you attempt to isolate him into smaller cohort groups, the less confidence the statistic becomes because of sample size.

What??????????

[jvan1973]

I would suspect that is for other teams, not including Indy.

What would make you suspect that??

[Coffeedrinker]

Not quite true.

1) 36 is getting on the older side of QBs. The oldest QB to win a SB was Elway at 38. PM's current contract runs until he is 40. I would be interested to learn the average age at which NFL QBs retire. I would guess around 34-35. And I am willing to bet that it isn't 40 or above.

Not quite true. 36 is not that old. As you just stated, Elway won two in a row at 37 and 38.

2) He is rehabbing aggressively so that he can return to the pre-injury form that is expected of him. He will always be himself at all times, and there is no need to rehab to become himself.

Nice attempt at humor, too bad it failed.

3) Yes, the owner of the team has stated that PM will be a colt if

a) he wants to be. However, we don't know what the owner means by this. Must agreeing to a significantly reduced contract demonstrate this desire for Mr. Irsay to agree that he wants to be?

b) his is "healthy" enough to be.... However, we don't know what Irsay means by this. From his Friday tweet, we know he does not interpret "healthy" to mean the neurosurgeons issuing the medical clearance to play football. Does Irsay intend healthy to mean that PM is back to his pre-injury performance form? I don't know.

c) There is no credible evidence to suggest that PM is working with Irsay on the cap issues.

That is not what I stated. What's the matter? When the facts don't line up nice and neat for you, you have to change things around to fit. Ahh, that's not good for a self proclaimed logical person.

4) This is not a fact. Manning has not stated that he is willing to do a cap friendly deal. Instead, it has been reported that he is, with no sources, no quotes, etc. unreliable **male cow patties**

That could be, I'm going by what other people have stated on this forum.

5) I do not know if this is fact. I have not read anything about Mr. Irsay saying that Orlovsky, or Painter will be back or not. Can you provide a link?

Oh, now it's Orlovsky or Painter. Before it was O, Collins and Painter plan. But yes, here is a paraphrase from Irsay in this article, "[e]ither way, the Colts owner said, the team needs a solid quarterback to stand behind a Manning."

6) I am basing my opinion on what the Colts should do given what I know as facts from my previous post.

I do not base my opinions on things which I don't know.

I don't know if Peyton is able to perform at his pre-injury level now or at any time in the future. I doubt you do either.

I don't know if Luck will be a superbowl caliber QB.

You can say that all you want but all your posts regarding this matter prove otherwise. You talk about rebuilding, tearing down the wall, replacing the foundation. All that is based on Manning's health and Manning's health is the question. So, if you were really as logical as you try to claim the only response at this time is to wait until March 8th and see what Manning's status is at that time. The team should have Plan A for a healthy Manning, Plan B for a possibly healthy Manning, Plan C for a healthy Manning to trade to another team, Plan D for a Manning who is going to retire. Anything that is not looking at all those possibilities is an opinion not based on all the facts... it cannot be because all the facts are not yet known.

[MR. Blueblood]

I'm not going to say who should stay or go for whatever reasons, I'm going to trust that Irsay, Grigson, and Pagano are going to do what is best for this team in the next 1-15+ years. You can't just look a few feet in front of you because you'll run head on into a semi truck barreling down the road at you. That being said, leave it up to those who are actually getting paid and ultimately held accountable to make "knowledgeable" decisions about the personnel.

[UndecidedFrog]

Not quite true. 36 is not that old. As you just stated, Elway won two in a row at 37 and 38.

One example, or even a handful of examples do not make the case. What is the average age at which NFL QBs retire?

Nice attempt at humor, too bad it failed.

Not at all, it just failed with you.

That is not what I stated. What's the matter? When the facts don't line up nice and neat for you, you have to change things around to fit. Ahh, that's not good for a self proclaimed logical person.

That is what you said. I just expanded on each of them to show you that you may not have the correct interpretation, as one examples shows. Some people were all agog with the news release from PM's docs and the Colts' neurosurgeon issuing PM a medical clearance to play football. They interpreted this to mean that PM was "healthy" per Mr, Irsay's condition for PM to return as a Colt. Sure enough, not soon afterwards, Mr. Irsay tweeted to refute that news release. Clearly he does not see the medical clearance issuance by these docs as meeting his criteria for being "healthy."

You can say that all you want but all your posts regarding this matter prove otherwise. You talk about rebuilding, tearing down the wall, replacing the foundation. All that is based on Manning's health and Manning's health is the question. So, if you were really as logical as you try to claim the only response at this time is to wait until March 8th and see what Manning's status is at that time.

I agree that we should wait until March 8, although I have a feeling that things will come to a head sooner than that. However, I don't think it is about PM's health, as much as it will be about PM's health as Irsay defines it. What will be revealing is if Irsay pays PM the option bonus or cuts him, regardless of how one interprets the health issue.

The team should have Plan A for a healthy Manning, Plan B for a possibly healthy Manning, Plan C for a healthy Manning to trade to another team, Plan D for a Manning who is going to retire. Anything that is not looking at all those possibilities is an opinion not based on all the facts... it cannot be because all the facts are not yet known.

I see it another way. The team should have:

Plan A: By March 8, if PM is considered healthy enough, pay the option bonus.

Plan B: By March 8, if PM is not considered healthy enough, release PM, don't pay the option bonus.

Plan B1: If Plan B happens, consider signing PM to a much reduced, and contingent contract that is cap friendly

The likelihood of plan B1 is slim. The likelihood of a trade is slimer.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

You are mistaken. I am not making any assumptions as to the condition of Peyton's nerve.

However, I do know certain facts.

They are:

1) PM will be 36 years old this upcoming season. If PM retires shortly after the Colts pay him the option bonus, the cap hit will be $ 38.4MM or 32% of the team total cap.

2) PM is still rehabbing aggressively in hopes that his nerve regenerates.

3) If we enter the 2012 season with the Painter/Orlovsky/Collins plan again, and PM is not good to go, we will end up pretty much the same way as last season.

4) It is not often that the Colts have the #1 overall pick in the draft

5) It is not often that the #1 draft prospect is a QB so highly rated, that he has been crowned the best QB prospect since PM.

6) The owner of the team has stated that the team is rebuilding, and has replaced the GM, the HC and most of the coaching/training staff.

7) The owner of the team has stated that there are salary cap problems 3 times within one interview.

So regardless of PM's nerve condition, and based on the facts I know above, I can make an educated recommendation that the rebuilding plan should be a tear-down, and not just a face-lift, as others have suggested.

You can come to a different conclusion. But you really cannot argue the facts.

C'mon frog! You are saying to others where is your proof. Well where are you getting your information? You make alot of statements and call them facts but do not reveal your sources lol. Most of what you say is nothing more than your opinion and there is nothing wrong with that but you are hardly an authority on PM or the Colts. I agree with rebuilding but like Pagano and Grigson said I think we should keep a few key players (veterans) to help with guiding our new team. If PM is willing to renegotiate his contract, and he has done whats best for the team in the past, then we should keep him along with Freeney, Mathis, Angerer, Garcon...and others.

[GrizzColt]

Not quite true. 36 is not that old. As you just stated, Elway won two in a row at 37 and 38.

Nice attempt at humor, too bad it failed.

That is not what I stated. What's the matter? When the facts don't line up nice and neat for you, you have to change things around to fit. Ahh, that's not good for a self proclaimed logical person.

That could be, I'm going by what other people have stated on this forum.

Oh, now it's Orlovsky or Painter. Before it was O, Collins and Painter plan. But yes, here is a paraphrase from Irsay in this article, "[e]ither way, the Colts owner said, the team needs a solid quarterback to stand behind a Manning."

You can say that all you want but all your posts regarding this matter prove otherwise. You talk about rebuilding, tearing down the wall, replacing the foundation. All that is based on Manning's health and Manning's health is the question. So, if you were really as logical as you try to claim the only response at this time is to wait until March 8th and see what Manning's status is at that time. The team should have Plan A for a healthy Manning, Plan B for a possibly healthy Manning, Plan C for a healthy Manning to trade to another team, Plan D for a Manning who is going to retire. Anything that is not looking at all those possibilities is an opinion not based on all the facts... it cannot be because all the facts are not yet known.

John Elway had one of the few men that have rushed for over 2,000 yards in a season in Terrel Davis. He wasn't just the best running back at the time, he was one of the best of all time and he was the star of those Bronco teams, not Elway. Peyton doesn't have anything even close to that. The only way is if we forego Andrew Luck and draft Richardson. so, I don't think your Elway analogy fits here. Actually, a better example is if Peyton had Barry Sanders in his prime.

[UndecidedFrog]

C'mon frog! You are saying to others where is your proof. Well where are you getting your information? You make alot of statements and call them facts but do not reveal your sources lol. Most of what you say is nothing more than your opinion and there is nothing wrong with that but you are hardly an authority on PM or the Colts. I agree with rebuilding but like Pagano and Grigson said I think we should keep a few key players (veterans) to help with guiding our new team. If PM is willing to renegotiate his contract, and he has done whats best for the team in the past, then we should keep him along with Freeney, Mathis, Angerer, Garcon...and others.

OK, you want sources for what I claim as facts?

Here they are:

1) 36 yrs old this season: http://www.colts.com/team/roster.html

2012 cap hit if PM gets paid the option bonus and retires before June 1 = $38.4MM :http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-1.html&page=2

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Peyton-Predicament-Part-2.html&page=2

2) Peyton on video says he is trying to get better. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1047366-peyton-manning-turns-the-tables-on-trey-wingo-during-espn-interview

3) Win - Loss record of Colts in 2011 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2011.htm

4) History of Colt's first round picks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indianapolis_Colts_first-round_draft_picks

5) Andrew Luck Draft rating Scouts Inc. http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft

6) Colts fire Polians http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7414912/indianapolis-colts-fire-bill-polian-chris-polian-peyton-manning-stunned-decision

Colts fire Caldwell http://www.colts101.com/2012/01/17/irsay-grigson-discuss-removal-of-jim-caldwell-as-head-coach/

Colts hire Grigson http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/11/irsay-introduces-g-m-grigson-says-decision-on-caldwell-is-coming/

Colts hire Pagano http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7506987/jim-irsay-says-chuck-pagano-bring-toughness-indianapolis-colts

Irsay admits Colts rebuilding http://nflfootball2011.com/irsay-admits-colts-rebuilding-in-some-areas/

7) Irsay Interview where he mentions salary cap problems 3 x. http://www.colts.com/media-center/videos/Irsay-offers-the-latest-on-Peyton-Manning/05fe17b2-e791-4813-89a5-a5f2592b5c95

Marshall, which of these 7 do you challenge?

I did not claim to be an authority on either the Colts or PM, so I have no idea why you think that I was or wasn't.

I have no credible evidence to believe that PM would be willing to renegotiate his contract.

I do know for a fact that Irsay has mentioned the salary cap problems the team faces 3 times in the interview (see source 7)

[Warhorse]

John Elway had one of the few men that have rushed for over 2,000 yards in a season in Terrel Davis. He wasn't just the best running back at the time, he was one of the best of all time and he was the star of those Bronco teams, not Elway. Peyton doesn't have anything even close to that. The only way is if we forego Andrew Luck and draft Richardson. so, I don't think your Elway analogy fits here. Actually, a better example is if Peyton had Barry Sanders in his prime.

That has been my choice since mid season. TR is a beast.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

OK, you want sources for what I claim as facts?

Here they are:

1) 36 yrs old this season: http://www.colts.com/team/roster.html

2012 cap hit if PM gets paid the option bonus and retires before June 1 = $38.4MM :http://www.nationalf...t-1.html&page=2

http://www.nationalf...t-2.html&page=2

2) Peyton on video says he is trying to get better. http://bleacherrepor...-espn-interview

3) Win - Loss record of Colts in 2011 http://www.pro-footb...ms/clt/2011.htm

4) History of Colt's first round picks http://en.wikipedia....und_draft_picks

5) Andrew Luck Draft rating Scouts Inc. http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft

6) Colts fire Polians http://espn.go.com/n...tunned-decision

Colts fire Caldwell http://www.colts101....-as-head-coach/

Colts hire Grigson http://profootballta...well-is-coming/

Colts hire Pagano http://espn.go.com/n...ianapolis-colts

Irsay admits Colts rebuilding http://nflfootball20...-in-some-areas/

7) Irsay Interview where he mentions salary cap problems 3 x. http://www.colts.com...a5-a5f2592b5c95

Marshall, which of these 7 do you challenge?

I did not claim to be an authority on either the Colts or PM, so I have no idea why you think that I was or wasn't.

I have no credible evidence to believe that PM would be willing to renegotiate his contract.

I do know for a fact that Irsay has mentioned the salary cap problems the team faces 3 times in the interview (see source 7)

1) (IF) PM retires..., is not a fact at all but merely conjecture. 2) ...in hopes his nerve regenerates implies that it is not regenerating at all. 3) Collins retired again not long after his concussion but other than that I agree with this statement. (4)-(7) I agree with. There is still no evidence to support letting PM go for Luck when Mr. Irsay has had several interviews in which he said he would keep a healthy PM and draft a new QB. Also PM has an interview where he says he can play on the same team as Luck and can get along with any player. Also well known to Colts fans is that PM has taken a lower salary to keep several players on the Colts and on more than one occasion. Also not 100% sure but I believe that Luck also was interviewed and said he could be on the same team with PM. Your facts don't always support your theory 100%. Sometimes you twist them to your viewpoint.

[UndecidedFrog]

1) (IF) PM retires..., is not a fact at all but merely conjecture.

If PM retires under these conditions, the salary cap hit will be XXX. That is fact. If you kick your dog, your dog will not be happy. That is also a fact.

I have never claimed that PM was retiring. I only stated the fact that IF he retires, then these are the consequences. If you doubt the veracity of this IF/THEN statement, I suggest you look at PM's contract in detail, and verify for yourself, that IF PM retires under the circumstances I described, will it hit the cap as I described? If it will, then my statement is a fact.

2) ...in hopes his nerve regenerates implies that it is not regenerating at all.

I have no information if his nerve is regenerating or not, I can only go by what PM said in his interview, that he was trying to get better. In addition the article that quoted his doctors that provided the medical clearance to play football, specifically called out that nerve regeneration is a tricky thing. So, having the hopes that his nerve regenerates is not lying, and it does not imply that the nerve will or will not regenerate.

3) Collins retired again not long after his concussion but other than that I agree with this statement. (4)-(7) I agree with.

So, out of the 7 factual statements I have previously made, you only contest the first 2? I suggest you read my answers to your objections and think on them a while to see if they satisfy you that these are still indeed facts.

There is still no evidence to support letting PM go for Luck when Mr. Irsay has had several interviews in which he said he would keep a healthy PM and draft a new QB. Also PM has an interview where he says he can play on the same team as Luck and can get along with any player. Also well known to Colts fans is that PM has taken a lower salary to keep several players on the Colts and on more than one occasion. Also not 100% sure but I believe that Luck also was interviewed and said he could be on the same team with PM. Your facts don't always support your theory 100%. Sometimes you twist them to your viewpoint.

Neither you nor I know what Mr. Irsay means by the term "healthy". I think we can agree that Mr. Irsay does not think healthy means anything like the medical clearance to play football given to PM by the neurosurgeon, as evidenced by Irsay's tweet that basically refuted that. Given this evidence, it is clear that Mr. Irsay has a different idea about what he means by the term "healthy". We can only wait and see what happens before March 8.

Based on the above 7 facts (of which I understand you contest the first 2), I base my opinion that a high likelihood that PM will not be back with the Colts. You can come up with a different opinion. But I think I am allowed my opinion. What we are not allowed are our own facts. I still stand by my original position that the 7 items above are indeed fact.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

If PM retires under these conditions, the salary cap hit will be XXX. That is fact. If you kick your dog, your dog will not be happy. That is also a fact.

I have never claimed that PM was retiring. I only stated the fact that IF he retires, then these are the consequences. If you doubt the veracity of this IF/THEN statement, I suggest you look at PM's contract in detail, and verify for yourself, that IF PM retires under the circumstances I described, will it hit the cap as I described? If it will, then my statement is a fact.

I have no information if his nerve is regenerating or not, I can only go by what PM said in his interview, that he was trying to get better. In addition the article that quoted his doctors that provided the medical clearance to play football, specifically called out that nerve regeneration is a tricky thing. So, having the hopes that his nerve regenerates is not lying, and it does not imply that the nerve will or will not regenerate.

So, out of the 7 factual statements I have previously made, you only contest the first 2? I suggest you read my answers to your objections and think on them a while to see if they satisfy you that these are still indeed facts.

Neither you nor I know what Mr. Irsay means by the term "healthy". I think we can agree that Mr. Irsay does not think healthy means anything like the medical clearance to play football given to PM by the neurosurgeon, as evidenced by Irsay's tweet that basically refuted that. Given this evidence, it is clear that Mr. Irsay has a different idea about what he means by the term "healthy". We can only wait and see what happens before March 8.

Based on the above 7 facts (of which I understand you contest the first 2), I base my opinion that a high likelihood that PM will not be back with the Colts. You can come up with a different opinion. But I think I am allowed my opinion. What we are not allowed are our own facts. I still stand by my original position that the 7 items above are indeed fact.

The definition of fact is: to have really happened; reality. The fact is PM said he is not retiring. The fact is PM has not retired. The fact is the salary cap will not nor has taken a hit because of PM retiring. Those are facts. The Colts would have salary cap problems regardless of PM being healthy or not and I can only assume Mr. Irsay knew that when he agreed to the contract. Also PM was not allowed to throw the ball after surgery until his nerves regenerated enough to do so. Now as witnessed by several people ie. Vinateri, Gonzalez, White... PM is now throwing the ball with increased velocity but not to his own standard. That could only mean his nerves are regenerating and in no way suggests they have stopped or couldn't possibly heal 100%. If nerve regeneration leveled off and was not increasing PM would have no alternative but to then retire. His mere intentions to play suggest adequate improvement.