Has Anyone Considered Peyton May Negotiate?

[mouthofsouth]

If Peyton is diligently rehabbing, and really wants to play next year for the Colts, is it beyond reason that he may sit down and negotiate with Irsay concerning the $28 mil bonus? Seems they could work out something, like paying Peyton some of it and then making the rest (majority of it) contingent on his being able to play up to par in 2012. No one is discussing that possibility. I do not see why this cannot happen, along with drafting Luck or Griffin, and let Peyton play and tutor the new guy. It really is based on how much Peyton wants to stay with the Colts, and how the Colts organization handles it. Thoughts?

[CR91]

i believe i heard somewhere that peyton said he would not reconstuct his contract

[PatMcAfeeFan]

i believe i heard somewhere that peyton said he would not reconstuct his contract

I heard that too, but I've never heard Peyton say anything about it. We will hear some news in the weeks following the Supe.

[WeSpy]

Hey, mouthofsouth! New member here.

You're right, not many folks have brought this up, but this is not beyond reason at all. Peyton has been known to publicly say that he'd take a paycut for the team. In fact, when Irsay said that he was going to make him the highest-paid player in the league, Peyton said that he'd rather some of that went to keep a solid team around him. So, I think that he and Irsay can sit down with Peyton's agent and work something out. Absolutely.

And, by the way, here's the link: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82112f59/article/manning-willing-to-take-less-money-to-do-deal-assist-colts

[19colt]

Peyton has restructured before, of course he would do it again.

Seems like we will find out all about a week after the Superbowl.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It's more along the lines that he can't do anything about the 28 million even if he wanted to.

It will be paid or declined, thus making him a free agent.

[Cynjin]

It's more along the lines that he can't do anything about the 28 million even if he wanted to.

It will be paid or declined, thus making him a free agent.

I have heard different ideas regarding the $28 mil. Why can't he renegotiate the roster bonus?

[FireJimCaldwell]

I have heard different ideas regarding the $28 mil. Why can't he renegotiate the roster bonus?

2 key points in the CBA prevent that from happening in my opinion

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point a.iii “No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after the last regular season game of that season”

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point e “An amendment to a Player Contract that changes the terms under which signing bonus is paid is a renegotiation.”

The Option Bonus is due towards the end of the 2011 league year, that is why a portion of it(28/5) is carried in our 2011 salary cap. Since the current regular season is over, I feel that his contract cannot be renegotiated. Point two speaks for itself.

[everybodysgotone]

It's more along the lines that he can't do anything about the 28 million even if he wanted to.

It will be paid or declined, thus making him a free agent.

That's my understanding as well. And it goes beyond just the 28M because of his salary cap hit tied to the future....as discussed in the other thread.

[buccolts]

I have heard different ideas regarding the $28 mil. Why can't he renegotiate the roster bonus?

My best guess is because a player can only sign one contract per league year.

The league year doesn't end until March 12th.

Therefore, if the Colts keep him, they'll pay the $28M.

I suppose that could be taken into consideration after March 12th with a renegotiated contract.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I suppose that could be taken into consideration after March 12th with a renegotiated contract.

He can renegotiate at that point but nothing can be done to decrease any future cap penalties if he were to retire/get cut or traded. At that point all he could basically do would be to lower his base salaries, which could help in any given year, but the cap penalties if he were removed from the roster for whatever reason would still be in play.

[mmcrazylikeafox]

Manning, in an interview with ESPN's Trey Wingo, said that he and Irsay will discuss whether the Super Bowl-winning quarterback will remain with the Colts "at the appropriate time, and when we do, I think some decisions will be made after that. But until then I'm just continuing to rehab, work hard, and to enjoy this week because it really is a special week for the city and certainly for my family."

Manning said that his recovery from spinal fusion surgery in September -- his third surgery in 19 months -- is going well despite the fact he didn't play last season.

"I really feel good. I continue to make progress every day," he said. "Everything that the doctors have told me has been on point, which is encouraging to me. I just had a great day today with rehab, just got back from the facility, and that's what we continue to do. Just keep trying to get better. So far I have. That's the plan from here on out."

Manning said that he'll continue to have checkups over the next several weeks, and termed his mood as "encouraging."

[everybodysgotone]

He can renegotiate at that point but nothing can be done to decrease any future cap penalties if he were to retire/get cut or traded. At that point all he could basically do would be to lower his base salaries, which could help in any given year, but the cap penalties if he were removed from the roster for whatever reason would still be in play.

Correct.

[Cynjin]

2 key points in the CBA prevent that from happening in my opinion

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point a.iii “No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after the last regular season game of that season”

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point e “An amendment to a Player Contract that changes the terms under which signing bonus is paid is a renegotiation.”

The Option Bonus is due towards the end of the 2011 league year, that is why a portion of it(28/5) is carried in our 2011 salary cap. Since the current regular season is over, I feel that his contract cannot be renegotiated. Point two speaks for itself.

Thanks for the explaination.

[Scipio]

I think the best case of Manning remaining with the Colts is for Irsay to cut him, then re-sign him at a very discounted, and incentive based 2 year contract.

For example:

10.4M hit on 2012 cap from being cut with current contract.

Re-sign for X million over the next 2 years, with only 5M on cap this year.

Therefore his total cap hit would be 15.4M this year, a bit cheaper than his current deal, but more importantly, we will not be tied to him for 4 years with a big contract when his playing ability could be questionable.

IMO, this is the best case for him and the Colts going forward - IF he is able to play next season (which his latest interview led me to believe will be the case).

[coltsblue1844]

i believe i heard somewhere that peyton said he would not reconstuct his contract

well we have also heard that he will retire, that he's not making progress...that he and Irsay are in a big fight...that Polian will be retained...that Caldwell will keep his job...that Keith Butler will be our DC....

what we "hear" is simply what ESPN etc make up for the story...

He may not be able to push back the option date (march 8) but we could very well not pick up the option, and then work out a NEW contract that is more "team friendly" with our salary cap

[coltsblue1844]

He can renegotiate at that point but nothing can be done to decrease any future cap penalties if he were to retire/get cut or traded. At that point all he could basically do would be to lower his base salaries, which could help in any given year, but the cap penalties if he were removed from the roster for whatever reason would still be in play.

or we could not pick up the $28million option, thus technically making him a free agent (as he was this past summer) and THEN resign him to a completely different contract. i'm well aware that he will still count some $10million against the cap this year, but the "new" contract can make things easier going forward and contain language to deal with if he retires etc before it is played out

[Superman]

2 key points in the CBA prevent that from happening in my opinion

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point a.iii “No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after the last regular season game of that season”

o From 2011-2020 CBA Article 13, Section 8, point e “An amendment to a Player Contract that changes the terms under which signing bonus is paid is a renegotiation.”

The Option Bonus is due towards the end of the 2011 league year, that is why a portion of it(28/5) is carried in our 2011 salary cap. Since the current regular season is over, I feel that his contract cannot be renegotiated. Point two speaks for itself.

Since the option bonus is applicable to subsequent years, would the first point really apply to the option bonus? Seems a little murky to me.

[David Wagner]

you saw how nasty the Packers/Favre divorce was. I would expect the same here. I would also expect there will be Luck haters and Colts fans who will still be wearing manning jerseys even after he is gone

[FireJimCaldwell]

Since the option bonus is applicable to subsequent years, would the first point really apply to the option bonus? Seems a little murky to me.

It's also was applied in 2011 and after the 2011 regular season, and it alters the terms under which signing bonus is paid.

[Superman]

or we could not pick up the $28million option, thus technically making him a free agent (as he was this past summer) and THEN resign him to a completely different contract. i'm well aware that he will still count some $10million against the cap this year, but the "new" contract can make things easier going forward and contain language to deal with if he retires etc before it is played out

Always an option, but I think it's unlikely. Now he'd be an unrestricted free agent for the first time in his career, and that would put us in a bidding war. There are teams, even in our divisions, with tens of millions of dollars of cap space. The Jaguars have something like $30 million in cap space. The Bucs have $50 million. If you release him, and he's healthy enough to pass a physical, then you're opening him up for other teams to throw tons of money at him to be a mercenary for two or three seasons.

And by contrast, you're saying we should offer him an incentive laden contract after denying him tens of millions that we already signed him for last year. I think a release/resigning would be the best of both worlds, but that's not the way things normally happen in the NFL.

Also, I believe releasing a player with a handshake agreement to sign him to a new contract is tantamount to collusion. May be wrong on that.

[FireJimCaldwell]

or we could not pick up the $28million option, thus technically making him a free agent (as he was this past summer) and THEN resign him to a completely different contract. i'm well aware that he will still count some $10million against the cap this year, but the "new" contract can make things easier going forward and contain language to deal with if he retires etc before it is played out

He was under the franchise tag last summer and not a free agent, but yes that could be done. Any language would have to fall under the CBA and approved by the NFL.

[everybodysgotone]

you saw how nasty the Packers/Favre divorce was. I would expect the same here. I would also expect there will be Luck haters and Colts fans who will still be wearing manning jerseys even after he is gone

Irsay and Manning will shake hands and be fine regardless of direction. They've both done well by one another and both have done wonders for the City/State. These medical circumstances are beyond anyone's control.

[coltsblue1844]

Always an option, but I think it's unlikely. Now he'd be an unrestricted free agent for the first time in his career, and that would put us in a bidding war. There are teams, even in our divisions, with tens of millions of dollars of cap space. The Jaguars have something like $30 million in cap space. The Bucs have $50 million. If you release him, and he's healthy enough to pass a physical, then you're opening him up for other teams to throw tons of money at him to be a mercenary for two or three seasons.

And by contrast, you're saying we should offer him an incentive laden contract after denying him tens of millions that we already signed him for last year. I think a release/resigning would be the best of both worlds, but that's not the way things normally happen in the NFL.

Also, I believe releasing a player with a handshake agreement to sign him to a new contract is tantamount to collusion. May be wrong on that.

why is it unlikely? and why would it put us in a bidding war? you understand that Peyton has said he wants to play his entire career here, right? and that he has said multiple times that its not about money, that he will take less to allow us to sign other guys, but irsay insisted on making him at least tied with Brady as the highest player...

It wouldnt be a bidding war, because the highest bidder doesnt always win...and in Peyton's case, i really doubt he would just follow the money.

The Jags could offer him that entire $30mil and that doesnt mean he wouldnt still sign here for $5mil...he makes HUNDREDS of millions of dollars, most of which he makes outside of the football field. the "bidding war" theory doesnt hold water with all players

[Superman]

It's also was applied in 2011 and after the 2011 regular season, and it alters the terms under which signing bonus is paid.

It doesn't necessarily have to, does it? Sorry to be "that guy," just trying to make sure I get all the angles.

If the option bonus hasn't been exercised yet, or can be denied, then it essentially applies more to Years 2-5 than it does to Year 1. So if you restructure that bonus, not to change the cap hit or monies paid for 2011, but to change the cap hit/monies owed for 2012-2015, then isn't that bonus of $28 million that comes irrevocably due after March 8 negotiable for the remaining four years of the contract?

Another question, can't the contract be extended thru 2017 or 2018, with tons of ULTBR incentives for the last two years? Grasping at straws? Yup. But isn't it doable, and woudn't that potentially help the cap hits for 2012 and 2013?

[FireJimCaldwell]

why is it unlikely? and why would it put us in a bidding war? you understand that Peyton has said he wants to play his entire career here, right? and that he has said multiple times that its not about money, that he will take less to allow us to sign other guys, but irsay insisted on making him at least tied with Brady as the highest player...

It wouldnt be a bidding war, because the highest bidder doesnt always win...and in Peyton's case, i really doubt he would just follow the money.

The Jags could offer him that entire $30mil and that doesnt mean he wouldnt still sign here for $5mil...he makes HUNDREDS of millions of dollars, most of which he makes outside of the football field. the "bidding war" theory doesnt hold water with all players

He might prefer to go to a team that doesn't have a portion of their fan base wanting the guy on the sideline to be playing the first time he throws an interception because they feel "he ain't what he used to be"....

If Miami comes knocking with 30 million up front and a solid contract, that would be hard to ignore even if you have as much money as he has.

[Superman]

why is it unlikely? and why would it put us in a bidding war? you understand that Peyton has said he wants to play his entire career here, right? and that he has said multiple times that its not about money, that he will take less to allow us to sign other guys, but irsay insisted on making him at least tied with Brady as the highest player...

It wouldnt be a bidding war, because the highest bidder doesnt always win...and in Peyton's case, i really doubt he would just follow the money.

The Jags could offer him that entire $30mil and that doesnt mean he wouldnt still sign here for $5mil...he makes HUNDREDS of millions of dollars, most of which he makes outside of the football field. the "bidding war" theory doesnt hold water with all players

I get what you're saying. But when you offer someone $45 million for two years, and we're offering him half of that after opting out of his contract, there's a serious possibility that he would go with the money.

And make no mistake about it: If we were to release Manning, he'd get serious big money offers from at least five teams with tons of cap space. Assuming he's healthy. And the NFLPA and his agent would be in his ear pressuring him to take that money.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It doesn't necessarily have to, does it? Sorry to be "that guy," just trying to make sure I get all the angles.

If the option bonus hasn't been exercised yet, or can be denied, then it essentially applies more to Years 2-5 than it does to Year 1. So if you restructure that bonus, not to change the cap hit or monies paid for 2011, but to change the cap hit/monies owed for 2012-2015, then isn't that bonus of $28 million that comes irrevocably due after March 8 negotiable for the remaining four years of the contract?

Another question, can't the contract be extended thru 2017 or 2018, with tons of ULTBR incentives for the last two years? Grasping at straws? Yup. But isn't it doable, and woudn't that potentially help the cap hits for 2012 and 2013?

In my opinion he can't restructure his option bonus, based on the language I provided. That would be up to the NFLPA & NFL to battle that out if they have a difference of opinion, but reading it for what it s, I don't think it can be restructured until the 2012 league year.

That is the thing though we are carrying a 5.6 cap hit in 2011 of that option bonus, that has yet to be paid. That can't be altered. It's due in 2011, not 2012.

If the option is picked up and he wishes to restructure, the only thing that could be done to help the 2012 cap would be to lower his base salary of 7.4. That could come with some form of concession, but I don't see him giving money away for nothing. The salary cap ramifications of the original signing bonus and option bonus would be set in stone and nothing could be done to alter those.,

[Superman]

In my opinion he can't restructure his option bonus, based on the language I provided. That would be up to the NFLPA & NFL to battle that out if they have a difference of opinion, but reading it for what it s, I don't think it can be restructured until the 2012 league year.

That is the thing though we are carrying a 5.6 cap hit in 2011 of that option bonus, that has yet to be paid. That can't be altered. It's due in 2011, not 2012.

Right, the $5.6 can't be altered. I'm talking about the remaining $22.4 for the next four years. I'll take your word for it, but I wonder about that.

If the option is picked up and he wishes to restructure, the only thing that could be done to help the 2012 cap would be to lower his base salary of 7.4. That could come with some form of concession, but I don't see him giving money away for nothing. The salary cap ramifications of the original signing bonus and option bonus would be set in stone and nothing could be done to alter those.,

Giving away money is one thing. Restructuring his contract so he can finish his career in Indy and not have to change teams is another.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Right, the $5.6 can't be altered. I'm talking about the remaining $22.4 for the next four years. I'll take your word for it, but I wonder about that.

It's one transaction. I'm trying to think of an example to compare it to. It would be like going to the grocery store at Thanksgiving and only wanting to buy the 20% of the turkey and wanting to bargain on the remaining 80%. You either buy the turkey as is, or you look for an alternative meal. This isn't the best example because they do sell 1/2's and 1'4s, and legs and smaller portions of turkey.

[Superman]

It's one transaction. I'm trying to think of an example to compare it to. It would be like going to the grocery store at Thanksgiving and only wanting to buy the 20% of the turkey and wanting to bargain on the remaining 80%. You either buy the turkey as is, or you look for an alternative meal. This isn't the best example because they do sell 1/2's and 1'4s, and legs and smaller portions of turkey.

I don't think it's like that at all, nor do I see how it's accurate to describe it as one transaction. If you're going to call it one transaction, then we have to go back to July of 2011 when the contract was signed.

What I'm saying is that it seems like the section of the CBA that you're applying to the option bonus holds tight for the $5.6 that's due for the 2011 league year. But the rest of it is due beyond the 2011 league year, and if we pick that option up, the remaining $22.4 million then gets applied for Years 2-5 of the contract. That being the case, it doesn't make sense to say that renegotiating that option bonus applies only to the 2011 league year. That seems like unclear and probably uncharted territory.

This is probably all moot. In the other thread, it basically clicked for me that the cap hit and the real money hit is significantly influenced by that option bonus, and without significant concessions by Manning on his contract, it makes a lot of money sense to release him. It's still Manning, and it's still the most important player in the NFL, but I don't see this ending with Manning staying a Colts. It saddens me, but it's the most likely resolution, I guess.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't think it's like that at all, nor do I see how it's accurate to describe it as one transaction. If you're going to call it one transaction, then we have to go back to July of 2011 when the contract was signed.

What I'm saying is that it seems like the section of the CBA that you're applying to the option bonus holds tight for the $5.6 that's due for the 2011 league year. But the rest of it is due beyond the 2011 league year, and if we pick that option up, the remaining $22.4 million then gets applied for Years 2-5 of the contract. That being the case, it doesn't make sense to say that renegotiating that option bonus applies only to the 2011 league year. That seems like unclear and probably uncharted territory.

This is probably all moot. In the other thread, it basically clicked for me that the cap hit and the real money hit is significantly influenced by that option bonus, and without significant concessions by Manning on his contract, it makes a lot of money sense to release him. It's still Manning, and it's still the most important player in the NFL, but I don't see this ending with Manning staying a Colts. It saddens me, but it's the most likely resolution, I guess.

It's one payment paid during the 2011 league year if it is paid at all. It's split over 2011-2015 if it's paid, but it's initiated in 2011. The contract was signed in 2011.

Sorta like a business has a physical year and a calendar year that don't match up, the same can be said the NFL & their league year.

If we do go back to July 2011. The contract was signed with the stipulation that it comes with a 20 million signing bonus paid immediately and a 28 million dollar option bonus due March 8th 2012 with the league year ending 3/11/12 and the new year beginning 3/12/12.

It's due in the 2011 league year. It is applied, just like the signing bonus, across the 5 years of the contract. That is a tool that utilized with these types of bonuses. Manning received a roster bonus of 3 million in 2011. It was paid in 2011, and it was absorbed in 2011, it wasn't spread across the life of the contract. It's just how bonuses are treated.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I wish it could be renegotiated, or ignored, but I don't see how.

[Dan]

you saw how nasty the Packers/Favre divorce was. I would expect the same here. I would also expect there will be Luck haters and Colts fans who will still be wearing manning jerseys even after he is gone

I'd be very disappointed if there weren't! Even if he leaves, he's still a legend. There should always be Manning 18 jerseys at the ground.

[doogansquest]

He was under the franchise tag last summer and not a free agent, but yes that could be done. Any language would have to fall under the CBA and approved by the NFL.

That's what I'm interested in finding out. These are two savvy guys (plus a savvy agent) who will do what they can if they want to keep this part of the team in place for a couple more years.

Next week will be on fire despite the season being over!

[mightisright]

I think the best case of Manning remaining with the Colts is for Irsay to cut him, then re-sign him at a very discounted, and incentive based 2 year contract.

For example:

10.4M hit on 2012 cap from being cut with current contract.

Re-sign for X million over the next 2 years, with only 5M on cap this year.

Therefore his total cap hit would be 15.4M this year, a bit cheaper than his current deal, but more importantly, we will not be tied to him for 4 years with a big contract when his playing ability could be questionable.

IMO, this is the best case for him and the Colts going forward - IF he is able to play next season (which his latest interview led me to believe will be the case).

Why not this? It seems like Manning would be willing. Irsay would be willing. And we would be ecstatic! Works for me.....

[mouthofsouth]

I'd be very disappointed if there weren't! Even if he leaves, he's still a legend. There should always be Manning 18 jerseys at the ground.

You are so right. Some Saints fans still wear Archie's # 8.

[Tony]

I am most willing to bet there is more high paid lawyers going over this contract then we can imagine. It is a big deal to the NFL to the Players Association and both Jim Irsay and Peyton and then of cource Tom Condon. wow what a web has been woven. I hope I have not offended anybody here I do appreciate all the time and investigation some have went to figure the cap hits and such, But I have to think of something to keep my simple mind from going off the deep edge.

[Tony Sullivan]

Condon structured this contract beautifully. They set it up so that Peyton was either gonna be our guy or he wasn't. They didn't allow us any room to trade him or franchise him. Peyton's a veteran and he's not going to be given the run-around. They had leverage and they used it justifiably so.

[presto123]

Condon structured this contract beautifully. They set it up so that Peyton was either gonna be our guy or he wasn't. They didn't allow us any room to trade him or franchise him. Peyton's a veteran and he's not going to be given the run-around. They had leverage and they used it justifiably so.

That's why we'll have to release him. Condon didn't leave the Colts many options in the account that his health is still in question come following league year.

[buccolts]

I am most willing to bet there is more high paid lawyers going over this contract then we can imagine. It is a big deal to the NFL to the Players Association and both Jim Irsay and Peyton and then of cource Tom Condon. wow what a web has been woven. I hope I have not offended anybody here I do appreciate all the time and investigation some have went to figure the cap hits and such, But I have to think of something to keep my simple mind from going off the deep edge.

Yeah, it's probably a good thing attorney fees don't count against the cap.