MVP through week 13

[Coffeedrinker]

30 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

Great player no doubt. But IMO being the major factor in leading his team to a 6-7 record is not even close to how they hand out MVP awards. Defensive player of the year would be more realistic. I think you have a point if you want to say he is having a better year then Cam Newton , but it's just not how they give that award out. 

I cannot disagree with your statement.  Good point.  

 

But, IMO the most valuable player is the person that can go on any of the 32 teams and make them better.  IMO that is JJ Watt.  Cam Newton would make 25 or 26 teams better but not all 32.

[dw49]

33 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I cannot disagree with your statement.  Good point.  

 

But, IMO the most valuable player is the person that can go on any of the 32 teams and make them better.  IMO that is JJ Watt.  Cam Newton would make 25 or 26 teams better but not all 32.

 

Oh.. I agree that you can make a case for him if you use your own standards. Who's to say the voters who vote for this have it right ?

It's almost like he's from a different planet . He's incredibly strong . mobile , fast and great technique to boot. Plus he has a big motor and desire. I've been watching football for 55 years and I don't think I've seen a DL before with his kind of total package.

[Dustin]

Carson Palmer is the thinking man's choice. 

[Dustin]

To be noted, Carson Palmer currently has an 8.8 YPA. A full yard more than Brady or Newton. 

[Coffeedrinker]

Definitely a strong case can be made for Carson Palmer.

[Coffeedrinker]

5 hours ago, dw49 said:

Oh.. I agree that you can make a case for him if you use your own standards. Who's to say the voters who vote for this have it right ?

It's almost like he's from a different planet . He's incredibly strong . mobile , fast and great technique to boot. Plus he has a big motor and desire. I've been watching football for 55 years and I don't think I've seen a DL before with his kind of total package.

I guess I didn't know there was a set of standards they used for MVP.  To me, it's pretty clear... Most Valuable Player.  It's not best play on a top team or player getting all the hype on a winning team or guy that is exceeding expections and his team is doing well, it's most valuable player.

 

So, it only seems logical that the most valuable player is the guy who could go to any team in the NFL and make them a better team and help them win more games.  And IMO that guy is JJ Watt.  With that criteria a case could also be made fro Gronk and even AP

[dw49]

4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I guess I didn't know there was a set of standards they used for MVP.  To me, it's pretty clear... Most Valuable Player.  It's not best play on a top team or player getting all the hype on a winning team or guy that is exceeding expections and his team is doing well, it's most valuable player.

 

So, it only seems logical that the most valuable player is the guy who could go to any team in the NFL and make them a better team and help them win more games.  And IMO that guy is JJ Watt.  With that criteria a case could also be made fro Gronk and even AP

 

 

I guess you learned something , although I didn't say that they had a "set of standards." 

[Coffeedrinker]

10 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

 

I guess you learned something , although I didn't say that they had a "set of standards." 

:).  I learn at least one new thing every day.

[dw49]

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

:).  I learn at least one new thing every day.

 

 

I've been around for over 24,000 days. If I had done that , I'd be smart.

[Coffeedrinker]

3 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

 

 

I've been around for over 24,000 days. If I had done that , I'd be smart.

I never said I remember what I learned though.

[amfootball]

21 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I guess I didn't know there was a set of standards they used for MVP.  To me, it's pretty clear... Most Valuable Player.  It's not best play on a top team or player getting all the hype on a winning team or guy that is exceeding expections and his team is doing well, it's most valuable player.

 

So, it only seems logical that the most valuable player is the guy who could go to any team in the NFL and make them a better team and help them win more games.  And IMO that guy is JJ Watt.  With that criteria a case could also be made fro Gronk and even AP

Such good points that you raise here. I was trying to find the actual criteria for league MVP and could not find it. It really is subjective and tends to be based on numbers/stats and wins.

[Yehoodi]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 10:16 PM, NFLfan said:

 

I did not have time to do the research but in this game alone Brady has a 1-yd TD pass and a 2-yd TD pass so far. In the Carolina game today, when the Panthers were at the 1-yd line,  they ran the ball. If it had been the Pats, it would have been a Brady TD pass.

Newton did have 3 TD passes but none from inside the 2-yd line.

 

NFLfan, sorry for not getting back to you earlier but have had a busy week. 

 

Short answer -

 

From the 3 yard line in, the Panthers call Newton's number (9 of 14) as much as the Pats call Brady's number (10 of 15)  for QB runs or passes.  As both rushing and passing TDs, imo, should be counted towards MVP honors, Cam has as many opportunities as Brady to achieve personal stats close to the goal line.

 

Also, one must consider what the D gives them and the position in the game to determine what play to call.  For instance, in Sunday's game and the second TD, the pats had the ball first and goal, with only like 28 seconds left in the half and one timeout.  In order to be able to use all 4 downs (with the 4th being a FG attempt), one really needs to pass on the first two downs with an incomplete pass stopping the clock and then run a run play on third down and call your timeout to then make your FG attempt on 4th down.  One needs to keep that timeout in your pocket to use if one is sacked, and it is wasted if you run on first down or second down.

 

Long answer (you can read if you wish) -

 

To add to the above one can look at TD logs on profootball reference.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2015.htm

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2015.htm

 

From these logs one can see that from the 3 yard line in, Pats have 7 passing TDs and 8 rushing TDs (3 by Brady), so of 15 TDs scored 10 of 15 go in Brady's camp.  For the Panthers we have 4 passing TDs and 10 rushing TDs (5 by Cam) so we have 9 of 14 going in Cam's camp.  So basically the same, the coaching staff called each QB's number the same amount of time near the goal line.

 

I never got too wrapped up in passing TDs versus rushing TDs as more often than not there really is not a big difference among seasons.  Surely sometimes there are a lot fewer rushing TDs to passing TDs, like Peyton in 2004 and Rodgers in 2011, but no so in Brady 2007 and Peyton 2013. 

 

Surely one could say that a QB could of handed off the ball for a rushing TD in a given possession, but then there are times when the team gets a rushing TD out of a passing formation like the pats last TD on Sunday.

 

Also, too it is tough to look at stats to get a grasp on things.  A team could be at the 7 yard line and throw it three times in the end zone and get a passing TD on the 3rd passing attempt and another team could be at the 7 yard

line and complete a short pass for 5 yards or run for 5 yards, then pass from the 2 yard line.   And the stats will say for the former: 7 yards passing TD, and the latter: 2 yards passing TD, and some expert will look at those stats and say the latter should of ran the ball.   When in reality one team is passing three times to get a TD and the other is running a more balanced offense.

 

It would be nice if one could get a stat to show the pass attempts in the end zone and from where to get a better grasp, and one reason why I asked you originally as I thought you may have had one, I know some paid sites provide some unique stats.

 

In the end I do not find the pats calling Brady's number out of proportion to other teams, and frankly at equal and maybe even less to his peers.  

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Cam has most of the votes but I still voted Tom. For reasons I have already Posted. I do think if Cam and the Panthers go 16-0 than he does deserve it eventhough a lot of that 16-0 will have to do with his Defense but anyone that can be a starting a QB and lead a team to 16-0 is amazing.

[Yehoodi]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Cam has most of the votes but I still voted Tom. For reasons I have already Posted. I do think if Cam and the Panthers go 16-0 than he does deserve it eventhough a lot of that 16-0 will have to do with his Defense but anyone that can be a starting a QB and lead a team to 16-0 is amazing.

 

I hear yah.  I tend to agree with you. 

 

Too bad Palmer is not getting much love in the discussion as some have mentioned earlier in this thread.  If they all end up 14-2 he should get a little love.  As it stands now Palmer is not talked about much.

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

I hear yah.  I tend to agree with you. 

 

Too bad Palmer is not getting much love in the discussion as some have mentioned earlier in this thread.  If they all end up 14-2 he should get a little love.  As it stands now Palmer is not talked about much.

I would go Tom, Cam, then Palmer. Palmer surprisingly has stayed healthy which has really been big for the Cards.

[Yehoodi]

11 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I would go Tom, Cam, then Palmer. Palmer surprisingly has stayed healthy which has really been big for the Cards.

 

yah, had he stayed healthy last year perhaps they take the division.  The Cardinals were doing great last year till he got injured.  Be nice to see them do well this year to make up for what might of been lost last year.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

yah, had he stayed healthy last year perhaps they take the division.  The Cardinals were doing great last year till he got injured.  Be nice to see them do well this year to make up for what might of been lost last year.

I think the Cards will be in the SB this season, it will either be against your Pats or the Broncos IMO. Of course I say Broncos because I picked them before the season started to win it all. Don't want to flipflop on my the biggest prediction one can make. Back to the MVP discussion, I would love to see Cards at Panthers for the NFC Title. Palmer vs Cam would be awesome + both of their Defenses are Great too.

[Yehoodi]

31 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think the Cards will be in the SB this season, it will either be against your Pats or the Broncos IMO. Of course I say Broncos because I picked them before the season started to win it all. Don't want to flipflop on my the biggest prediction one can make. Back to the MVP discussion, I would love to see Cards at Panthers for the NFC Title. Palmer vs Cam would be awesome + both of their Defenses are Great too.

 

It would be a great NFCCG game.  Be nice to see either one of those franchises make the SB and win it.  Carolina has never won a NFL Championship and the Cardinals have not won since the 40s when they were in Chicago, two cities ago.  For the most part Stl/Phx/AZ Cardinals have been average to below average team during the SB era. 

 

And nice to see either one of the QBs get some love as for the most part they are  under the radar when folks mention great QBs in the NFL.  

[chad72]

The NFC SB rep is going to have its bandwagon full, IMO, this year. 

[southwest1]

On December 14, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Gavin said:

I'm going to throw another name out there that I think is earning some consideration if his team can find a way to win out the next 3 games and that's Blake Bortles. Not a lot of people talking about him...some but he has 30 td's to only 13 picks and 1 game out in the playoffs despite being 5-8. Now the Jags will have to win out but he is having a great year

Ultimately I'd have to give it to Brady

 

On December 14, 2015 at 7:58 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

After yesterday I give it to Bortles (sarcasm), never seen anyone thread the needle like him. His sweet ability to throw it into triple coverage and still have guys catch it then run for 50 Yards is uncanny  

A nice dark horse selection there Gavin & CBE. Blake has no chance this year. But he's worth keeping an eye on in subsequent seasons. No question. 

[dgambill]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 11:06 AM, 21isSuperman said:

I agree.  The Seahawks and Patriots went into last year's Super Bowl with receivers like Doug Baldwin and Brandon LaFell.  With that said, you could make the case that having a better WR would have helped the Seahawks win on that throw from the 2.

 

I agree with you, though, that the bigger investment should be put towards a QB and OL.  That's not to say we can neglect the WR spot, but it isn't a requirement to heavily invest in it with high draft picks and premier free agents, in my opinion.

Yes...Seattle's best WR in that game isn't even in the NFL anymore unless someone picked him up. I understand their thinking in bringing in Graham to be that redzone threat that they coveted but the problem is it comes by sacrificing a blocking TE...which they use a ton in their running game. In my opinion they would have been better off signing Brandon Marshall and keeping their pro bowl center. Not only is he a beast at WR and in the redzone but they could have used their #1 pick on a corner or OL help. They also would have saved a ton of money to fix the Chancellor situation and not started the season in a hole. Hindsight is 20/20 but Jimmy just didn't fit their system...and they didn't change it to utilize him so I don't know what they are thinking. I thought their offense would look totally different this year but they came out running the same thing and basically wasted Jimmy.

[Carlos Danger]

Its Newton, then Brady. 

 

I think it's close... The Panthers have to finish the regular season without losing for Cam to win it. 

 

Like most of us, I dislike Brady and the Patriots. Their sports media personalities are just awful. However, what Brady has been able to do with that line and all of their injuries has been pretty remarkable. I can't really argue with people who think he's the MVP so far. 

[Jules]

On 12/15/2015 at 11:04 PM, dw49 said:

 

 

It has to be Watt because he's led the Texans to a 6-7 record ? 

 

 

I almost spit out my soda.  

 

Sadly yes I still think it is Tom Brady. And before the *he can't win without Gronk* crew chimes in the Patriots have suffered A LOT of injuries this year. O line and they can't keep a RB in one piece either. I think the Pats are sunk without Brady since defensively they are not that great either. And lets face it, Brady's hair is looking really good this season. And his skin looks smooth as hell. He looks 28 at times.

 

Cam is a good choice too and might get it though if the Panthers go 16-0. It's hard to ignore an unbeaten team. However, ever since we played and should have beaten Carolina on MNF I can't get the feeling the Panthers are a tad overrated even and a product of a very soft schedule. Something just bugs me........

 

Palmer don't get nearly enough attention either. The Cards are my bandwagon team this year in the NFC.

 

Lastly, my personal vote is for Brock Osweiler since according to another thread I am having a love feast or love affair with the young man. He is so dreamy and sorta resembles the guy in the Twilight movies.

 

[dw49]

On December 16, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

 

 

On December 16, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Coffeedrinker said:

:).  I learn at least one new thing every day.

 

On December 16, 2015 at 0:03 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

I never said I remember what I learned though.

 

just trying to get rid of this crazy mess above

every time I try to quote a post , that mess above shows when I hit reply . 

[dw49]

25 minutes ago, Jules said:

 

I almost spit out my soda.  

 

Sadly yes I still think it is Tom Brady. And before the *he can't win without Gronk* crew chimes in the Patriots have suffered A LOT of injuries this year. O line and they can't keep a RB in one piece either. I think the Pats are sunk without Brady since defensively they are not that great either. And lets face it, Brady's hair is looking really good this season. And his skin looks smooth as hell. He looks 28 at times.

 

Cam is a good choice too and might get it though if the Panthers go 16-0. It's hard to ignore an unbeaten team. However, ever since we played and should have beaten Carolina on MNF I can't get the feeling the Panthers are a tad overrated even and a product of a very soft schedule. Something just bugs me........

 

Palmer don't get nearly enough attention either. The Cards are my bandwagon team this year in the NFC.

 

Lastly, my personal vote is for Brock Osweiler since according to another thread I am having a love feast or love affair with the young man. He is so dreamy and sorta resembles the guy in the Twilight movies.

 

 

I have Cam 1 and Brady 2 at this point but as you say , you can reverse that

 

. Now as far as the Osweiler pick , this would make a good case for not letting girls vote on MVP's.

[Jules]

5 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

I have Cam 1 and Brady 2 at this point but as you say , you can reverse that

 

. Now as far as the Osweiler pick , this would make a good case for not letting girls vote on MVP's.

 

I am joking about the Osweiler pick but hey......he's not too bad when you really look through the pictures of him. 

 

Cam may get it by default though if the Panthers go 16-0. Brady though is well......he's Brady. He will likely get some votes regardless of what happens. He is Tommy Freaking Terrific and voters love him.

[dw49]

Just now, Jules said:

 

I am joking about the Osweiler pick but hey......he's not too bad when you really look through the pictures of him. 

 

Cam may get it by default though if the Panthers go 16-0. Brady though is well......he's Brady. He will likely get some votes regardless of what happens.

 

 

I knew you were joking . Besides that ... Brady is better looking than Osweiler anyway.

[Jules]

3 minutes ago, dw49 said:

 

 

I knew you were joking . Besides that ... Brady is better looking than Osweiler anyway.

 

Now you just channeled amfootball........and the rest of this forum will be cursing us in their heads.

 

But, yeah Brady is sleek package. 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

48 minutes ago, Jules said:

 

I almost spit out my soda.  

 

Sadly yes I still think it is Tom Brady. And before the *he can't win without Gronk* crew chimes in the Patriots have suffered A LOT of injuries this year. O line and they can't keep a RB in one piece either. I think the Pats are sunk without Brady since defensively they are not that great either. And lets face it, Brady's hair is looking really good this season. And his skin looks smooth as hell. He looks 28 at times.

 

Cam is a good choice too and might get it though if the Panthers go 16-0. It's hard to ignore an unbeaten team. However, ever since we played and should have beaten Carolina on MNF I can't get the feeling the Panthers are a tad overrated even and a product of a very soft schedule. Something just bugs me........

 

Palmer don't get nearly enough attention either. The Cards are my bandwagon team this year in the NFC.

 

Lastly, my personal vote is for Brock Osweiler since according to another thread I am having a love feast or love affair with the young man. He is so dreamy and sorta resembles the guy in the Twilight movies.

 

I think Tom is the MVP as well and you know how I feel about him and the Pats in general! But I think he is the better player for 1 over Cam, secondly he has the much better Stats as well. Also it's not like his team has lost that much more than Cam's either, he is 11-2. Now if Cam goes 16-0 then that is a different story. Have to go Cam then.

[dw49]

6 minutes ago, Jules said:

 

Now you just channeled amfootball........and the rest of this forum will be cursing us in their heads.

 

But, yeah Brady is sleek package. 

 

 

 

Hopefully am doesn't click on this exchange we just had.

[Synthetic]

 

The MVP normally comes down to popularity vote combined with the number of wins. It's why Peyton Manning has 5 MVP's, despite only having one Super Bowl ring. 

 

In 2009, I thought for sure Brett Favre should have got the MVP that year, after the career year he had at age 40. At one time I argued that Brees should have got the MVP that year but I was wrong, it was Favre's. He had his career best season in 13 years at age 40, and I still don't know how he lost the MVP to golden boy. 

 

Then in 2011, Brees was screwed out of the MVP he should have won, due to Rodgers. All that record breaking and no MVP, but they sure gave it to Manning when he padded the stats to satisfy his pompously inflated ego all through 2013.

 

The MVP comes down to popular vote every year. If Manning's numbers were better (and he wasn't benched for a much more efficient, younger quarterback), the argument would probably come down to him and Brady, with Cam Newton being sacrificed for the golden boys, the same way Brett Favre's MVP was sacrificed in 2009.

 

Keep in mind, Aaron Rodgers has 2 MVP's, and he choked both of them away in the playoffs. You don't have to particularly perform well in the playoffs to get the MVP. I even think the MVP might be a curse, cause it's so rare the quarterback wins the Super Bowl the year he gets the MVP. It's the ultimate kiss of death. 

 

Newton should win it IMO. He's totally earned it, and become a dominant force in the league. I hate Carolina and always will since I'm a Saints fan, but I have the up most respect for Newton, and would love to see him with the MVP. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jules]

10 minutes ago, Bogie said:

 

 

Newton should win it IMO. He's totally earned it, and become a dominant force in the league. I hate Carolina and always will since I'm a Saints fan, but I have the up most respect for Newton, and would love to see him with the MVP. 

 

 

I think you want to jinx the Panthers too lol. Give them MVP and 16-0 which would almost guarantee some epic blowout loss in January to the Seahawks or something.

[Synthetic]

2 minutes ago, Jules said:

 

I think you want to jinx the Panthers too lol. Give them MVP and 16-0 which would almost guarantee some epic blowout loss in January to the Seahawks or something.

 

 

I'm real when it comes to admiring Newton. I love that he makes insecure people lose their marbles over how he dances and takes cool pictures. For that, he gets a huge 1 UP extra life. 

 

But yes, I want the Panthers jinxed and OUT. It could be as funny as when Green Bay went 15-1 and lost in the playoffs to the Giants 

[Jules]

2 minutes ago, Bogie said:

 

 

I'm real when it comes to admiring Newton. I love that he makes insecure people lose their marbles over how he dances and takes cool pictures. For that, he gets a huge 1 UP extra life. 

 

But yes, I want the Panthers jinxed and OUT. It could be as funny as when Green Bay went 15-1 and lost in the playoffs to the Giants 

 

I know you like Cam and respect him.  But, it's tough to go against Tom Terrific!!!!

 

[bap1331]

 

I think you want to jinx the Panthers too lol. Give them MVP and 16-0 which would almost guarantee some epic blowout loss in January to the Seahawks or something.

 

 

I'm real when it comes to admiring Newton. I love that he makes insecure people lose their marbles over how he dances and takes cool pictures. For that, he gets a huge 1 UP extra life. 

 

But yes, I want the Panthers jinxed and OUT. It could be as funny as when Green Bay went 15-1 and lost in the playoffs to the Giants 

I just don't see the panthers as that team yet. I agree. The NFC has an angry seahawks team looking for vengeance from 2014 and the Cardinals will look for that revenge from the panthers beating them last year with their 3rd stringer. Lol.

14-0 but have they faced a powerhouse team yet? I feel like the patriots would eat them up if they reached the super bowl healthy.

[bap1331]

 

I think you want to jinx the Panthers too lol. Give them MVP and 16-0 which would almost guarantee some epic blowout loss in January to the Seahawks or something.

 

 

I'm real when it comes to admiring Newton. I love that he makes insecure people lose their marbles over how he dances and takes cool pictures. For that, he gets a huge 1 UP extra life. 

 

But yes, I want the Panthers jinxed and OUT. It could be as funny as when Green Bay went 15-1 and lost in the playoffs to the Giants 

But I have to disagree with you on admiring his celebrations. The greatest celebrate briefly and jog off the field, not every single time they make a first down.

These athletes are role models and what are they doing everytime they shout, dance and taunt the other team? Encourage them to be the next Dez Bryant or t.o.? Just get off the dang field.

That's why I love the colts. Pure class players and fans. No shouting, dancing, taunting. Just do your job and leave the field.

[Jules]

1 hour ago, bap1331 said:

But I have to disagree with you on admiring his celebrations. The greatest celebrate briefly and jog off the field, not every single time they make a first down.

These athletes are role models and what are they doing everytime they shout, dance and taunt the other team? Encourage them to be the next Dez Bryant or t.o.? Just get off the dang field.

That's why I love the colts. Pure class players and fans. No shouting, dancing, taunting. Just do your job and leave the field.

 

You really didn't just type that seriously I hope......

 

And yeah the Colts never do anything wrong.  From top to bottom our team doesn't shout, dance, celebrate, do anything wrong off the field or get in trouble. Even when the Saint was here (Dungy) we still had guys dance, shout, celebrate, get in trouble and admit to even drinking alcoholic beverages. And our fans are all pure class too? Yeah we are all freaking angels. I am waiting for my wings to arrive in the mail.

 

I need to go to sleep, now this is all giving me a headache.

[amfootball]

9 hours ago, dw49 said:

 

 

I knew you were joking . Besides that ... Brady is better looking than Osweiler anyway.

I knew you loved Tom.   I will save this post and savor it forever. 

 

And since we are talking looks, can I add that Newton is very handsome. I just love his smile and physique. The way he plays too makes him more attractive as he stands talk the pocket and delivers rockets. I like his dancing too. And Jules is right Brock does look like a Twilight character with his wavy hair and dark eyes. He is pretty dreamy. 

[dw49]

2 hours ago, amfootball said:

I knew you loved Tom.   I will save this post and savor it forever. 

 

And since we are talking looks, can I add that Newton is very handsome. I just love his smile and physique. The way he plays too makes him more attractive as he stands talk the pocket and delivers rockets. I like his dancing too. And Jules is right Brock does look like a Twilight character with his wavy hair and dark eyes. He is pretty dreamy. 

 

Yeah .. love Tom. Yeah.. Oweieller is dreamy. What am I doing in this thread ? Please excuse me before someone might get the wrong idea .

[Jules]

14 hours ago, amfootball said:

I knew you loved Tom.   I will save this post and savor it forever. 

 

And since we are talking looks, can I add that Newton is very handsome. I just love his smile and physique. The way he plays too makes him more attractive as he stands talk the pocket and delivers rockets. I like his dancing too. And Jules is right Brock does look like a Twilight character with his wavy hair and dark eyes. He is pretty dreamy.