Maybe We Should Keep Caldwell.

[Balzer40]

None of us here have any idea what the players actually think of Caldwell. Even if they thought he was a complete dipstick, they are not going to come out and say it. So I really wish people would stop with the presumptuous "the players like Caldwell" stuff, We have no idea if that is true or not.

[Coffeedrinker]

Backing up Eli Manning isn't exactly getting a shot. Matt Cassel got a shot. Mark Brunell & Matt Hasselbeck after backing up Brett Favre got shots. Jim Sorgi took another back up up position.

I guess next time I should get your definitions of the words I use before I post them. That is getting a shot on another team.

Manning's #'s only dipped once between 1998 and 2004, and that was the year that we lost Edge, and while Dom came in and scraped together 1k on the ground it wasn't exactly the same offense wasn't the same and teams didn't fear 33 like they did 32.

Really? You only judge a player by his numbers? But even if you do then you'd know your above statement is false. His yards per pass dropped in 2000, then further in 2001 and then futher in 2002 (Caldwell's first year) and improved and was one of the leaders in ypc average during Caldwell's time as QB coach. Caldwell was also the QB coach in Tampa when Brad Johnson had one of his best seasons as a pro. But I'm sure that's all just a coincidence.

Manning's progression is due to his work ethic and his approach each offseason of trying to find something to improve on. From my understanding the QB Coach and back up QB were more of film geeks taking notes for Manning and presenting him the data that he requested. I won't say that Caldwell deserves no credit for Manning's development, but I'll give the majority of the credit to Manning & Moore, and Manning's work ethic and maturing into his prime.

Manning's work ethic is great and a large part of why he has been at a high level for 14 years no doubt, but there is a reason why teams (even the Colts) pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone with the title of QB coach and it's not, as you understand, to watch film and take notes for Manning.

[LightninMax]

None of us here have any idea what the players actually think of Caldwell. Even if they thought he was a complete dipstick, they are not going to come out and say it. So I really wish people would stop with the presumptuous "the players like Caldwell" stuff, We have no idea if that is true or not.

I can be a presumptuous person sometimes. It's a character flaw. You're right about what players say, but I don't think it's an absolute. If there was some ill feelings, then it will get out. Every player doesn't have the discipline they probably should. I especially think you would hear it from players that leave and go to other teams and God knows there are a lot of them that we see all the time. I can't promise I'll stop being presumptuous but I'll try to rein it in.

[Coffeedrinker]

Players like him becasue he's soft, and as far as playing hard,

This is a comment that is complete hokum.

you have to be ralistic that there was some games, the tackling was horrible, but that could just be on the colts way of playing d anyway

That's been a problem with the Colts de since the 1998.

No way one can compare caldwell to Landry other than being both stoic. When Caldwell has the career wins Landry has, then one can talk.

Exactly, Caldwells' first year he went 16-3 with a trip to the SB, Landry went 0-11-1 and didn't win more than 5 games in a year in his first 5 years as the HC. There is no comparison at all.

[i will say, I don't think Caldwell compares to Landry, Landry and watching the Dallas Cowboys as a kid is the reason I became a football fan and I swore I would hate the Cowboys forever when they fired Landry)

[Balzer40]

I can be a presumptuous person sometimes. It's a character flaw. You're right about what players say, but I don't think it's an absolute. If there was some ill feelings, then it will get out. Every player doesn't have the discipline they probably should. I especially think you would hear it from players that leave and go to other teams and God knows there are a lot of them that we see all the time. I can't promise I'll stop being presumptuous but I'll try to rein it in.

I think we seen some of the true feelings last yr. from Manning with the stupid timeout call in the Jets game. Then again this season when Saturday said they were outcoached, then quickly backtracked when the media got a hold of it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I guess next time I should get your definitions of the words I use before I post them. That is getting a shot on another team.

Really? You only judge a player by his numbers? But even if you do then you'd know your above statement is false. His yards per pass dropped in 2000, then further in 2001 and then futher in 2002 (Caldwell's first year) and improved and was one of the leaders in ypc average during Caldwell's time as QB coach. Caldwell was also the QB coach in Tampa when Brad Johnson had one of his best seasons as a pro. But I'm sure that's all just a coincidence.

Manning's work ethic is great and a large part of why he has been at a high level for 14 years no doubt, but there is a reason why teams (even the Colts) pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone with the title of QB coach and it's not, as you understand, to watch film and take notes for Manning.

I guess we have a difference of opinion on what "getting a shot means", to me it would be a shot at something different, a shot at a better job(aka Starting). Yes he got another opportunity to play with another team, but that didn't last very long. His #1 asset with the Colts was his knowledge of the offense, not his ability to play, or to throw, or to lead the team or anything like that. Which was fine because Peyton was healthy. I do think he would have performed better than Painter, because it seems that he seems sharper than Painter.

You are the one that stated that Manning's play had declined, and the only way it declined was from a statistical point of view. He was a better quarterback in 2010 than he was in 2004, but his #'s in 2004 dwarf 2010. Just like Brady the past 5 years is a better quarterback than his first 5 years. It's called growth. I don't judge it only on #'s I judge it on watching the games, the #'s are only part of the story and Manning was a better QB in 2001, than he was in 1999. The #'s don't support it but watching him play the game you can see it. Again, it's called growth.

Brad Johnson had a far better year under Gruden after the Caldwell/Christensen combo moved on to Indy. The only # that wasn't better than the year before was total yards and that is attributed to missing 3 games. Nice try. Considering the failures of the Christensen/Caldwell offense was one of the main reasons Dungy was fired in Tampa, that point doesn't hold water. If they had a competent offense they would have won a Super Bowl before Gruden game to town. Considering that when Dungy was hired, the offense was considered hands off and Tom Moore was still in place as OC, and JC & CC were assigned roles as QB coach and WR coach, I'll give Moore far more credit to the development of Manning.

Yeah they pay 100's of thousands of dollars, and in most cases you might have a point, but based on reading of the topic and comments from guys like Troy Aikman about how Manning is the one running practice, not Dungy, not Caldwell. Caldwell has contributed to the success of Manning as a QB coach but I would say it is a very small part of the equation and far less that it seems like you are wanting to give him credit for.

[LightninMax]

Hey Balzer buddy, most correct on the TO's that was a bad mistake. There have been others. No one is perfect. Like the Atlanta coach last week, I wouldn't monday morning QB his decision to go for it on 4th down, but to do so with an empty backfield and QB under center seemed to be a mistake by telegraphing the play. I saw that Saturday interview and I'm 99% sure because of the way he was answering the question of what he thought went wrong that he was simply giving an all encompassing list that would include everyone on the team. It was like well it was bad defense, bad offense, poor tackling and blocking and we got outcoached. The look on his face was more of a stock answer like you've pointed out before then a truyly revealing answer.

Anyway, I'm new to the forum and danged excited to find such a great place with knowledgeable folks like yourself. I'm spending too much time here, but now I"ve met new person requirements and gotta go to dinner. Top of the day to ya and let's cross keyboards again!

[FireJimCaldwell]

I guess since Caldwell* had more wins in year 1 than Nick Saban had in 2 years with Miami that makes him a better coach than Saban...

Sorry, but that is just laughable.

[MAC]

Players like him becasue he's soft,

None of us here have any idea what the players actually think of Caldwell. Even if they thought he was a complete dipstick, they are not going to come out and say it. So I really wish people would stop with the presumptuous "the players like Caldwell" stuff, We have no idea if that is true or not.

It's pretty clear that they respect him and play hard for him. If they "like" him I think it's because he treats them with respect as well - like men. There are plenty of teams where unpleasant quotes about the coach leak out for the silliest of reasons. The Colts just went 2-14 and the only person that said a thing to my knowledge was Tryon complaining about being fired. It's a matter of opinion whether that is the sign of a good coach or not, but personally I would play harder for someone like that than for someone who coached with fear as a motivation. IE:

People think Parcells was a great coach, but I heard his nonsense in the news everyday for years when he was with the Giants and Jets. He was belligerent, sarcastic, rude, (amusing, but in an extremely cruel way) and in general acted worse than the frustrated power-hungry ex-marine who taught gym class in my middle school. Of course Parcels also kissed the rears of his favorites, which must have been just delightful for everyone else on the team to see. And a little bit off topic, but you'd have to assume at this point that a lot of his success could be attributed to Belichick anyway. It is incredibly difficult - if not impossible - to sit where we are and make an informed decision about these things - but I don't believe for one second that Caldwell is "soft" in the "the inmates are running the asylum" manner that you are likely referring to. On the other hand the inmates ARE running the asylum in NY, once again for a coach that a lot of people here think is superior to Caldwell in everyway.

[Coffeedrinker]

I guess we have a difference of opinion on what "getting a shot means", to me it would be a shot at something different, a shot at a better job(aka Starting). Yes he got another opportunity to play with another team, but that didn't last very long. His #1 asset with the Colts was his knowledge of the offense, not his ability to play, or to throw, or to lead the team or anything like that. Which was fine because Peyton was healthy. I do think he would have performed better than Painter, because it seems that he seems sharper than Painter.

Cool

You are the one that stated that Manning's play had declined, and the only way it declined was from a statistical point of view.

No it didn't ONLY decline from a statistical point of view. In those years he was making bad decisions, forcing the ball into areas with 3 or 4 defenders. Making bad reads at the LOS, completely misreading defenses on many occassions, the list goes on, but he was much better at those items under Arians than the QB coach who took over for him

He was a better quarterback in 2010 than he was in 2004, but his #'s in 2004 dwarf 2010. Just like Brady the past 5 years is a better quarterback than his first 5 years. It's called growth. I don't judge it only on #'s I judge it on watching the games, the #'s are only part of the story and Manning was a better QB in 2001, than he was in 1999. The #'s don't support it but watching him play the game you can see it. Again, it's called growth.

I disagree he was a better QB in 2010 than 2004. There were a lot of old habits that he started going back to in 2010 until Caldwell stepped in and made some suggestions to improve his game.

Brad Johnson had a far better year under Gruden after the Caldwell/Christensen combo moved on to Indy.

Far better??? You want to squabble about the definition of getting a shot but use a few more completions (and quite a few more TDs) as the definition of "far better". That is a nice try. Also it's no secret that Gruden ran more of a passing offense than Dungy.

The only # that wasn't better than the year before was total yards and that is attributed to missing 3 games. Nice try. Considering the failures of the Christensen/Caldwell offense was one of the main reasons Dungy was fired in Tampa, that point doesn't hold water.

If you say so. Still Johnson had been in the league for a while and he had one of his best seasons as a pro under Caldwell and his best season to that point in his career.

If they had a competent offense they would have won a Super Bowl before Gruden game to town. Considering that when Dungy was hired, the offense was considered hands off and Tom Moore was still in place as OC, and JC & CC were assigned roles as QB coach and WR coach, I'll give Moore far more credit to the development of Manning.

That's only because you have no idea about the roles of a QB coach and Offensive Coordinator

Yeah they pay 100's of thousands of dollars, and in most cases you might have a point, but based on reading of the topic and comments from guys like Troy Aikman about how Manning is the one running practice, not Dungy, not Caldwell. Caldwell has contributed to the success of Manning as a QB coach but I would say it is a very small part of the equation and far less that it seems like you are wanting to give him credit for.

You can say whatever you like it does not, like in this case, make it true.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Cool

Yeah far out man.

No it didn't ONLY decline from a statistical point of view. In those years he was making bad decisions, forcing the ball into areas with 3 or 4 defenders. Making bad reads at the LOS, completely misreading defenses on many occassions, the list goes on, but he was much better at those items under Arians than the QB coach who took over for him I disagree he was a better QB in 2010 than 2004. There were a lot of old habits that he started going back to in 2010 until Caldwell stepped in and made some suggestions to improve his game.

Comical. He's was far more advanced in 2010 than he was in 2004, just as he was more advanced in 04 than 2010, of course that was all to the tutelage of QB guru Jimmy Caldwell.. Payroll? I hope so....

2010.........Yeah okay... Manning was trying to make chicken pie out of chicken something, and then the replacements around him started getting up to speed. You don't complete 70% of your passes by reverting to so called old habits...

105 148 70.9% 1046 8 td 11 int in that stretch you are alluding to.

Far better??? You want to squabble about the definition of getting a shot but use a few more completions (and quite a few more TDs) as the definition of "far better". That is a nice try. Also it's no secret that Gruden ran more of a passing offense than Dungy. If you say so. Still Johnson had been in the league for a while and he had one of his best seasons as a pro under Caldwell and his best season to that point in his career.

Yes far better, when you consider he missed 3 games, it would have been even more. Look at the core #'s. Are you just trying to throw stuff against the wall and hope that it sticks, at least check your #'s before throwing them against the wall. Johnson's best year pre-Gruden was 1999 in Washington. Under CC/JC Johnson averaged 37.7 pass plays(attempts+sacks) . Under Gruden the next year, the better year, he averaged 36.3. If he hadn't missed the 3 games, that far better comment would have been an understatement.

That's only because you have no idea about the roles of a QB coach and Offensive Coordinator

You should take this act to a lounge. It's comical.

You can say whatever you like it does not, like in this case, make it true.

But everything you have said is supposed to be taken as the 100% gospel.. Yeah, not happening...especially after the majority of it has been proven wrong. Actually it does make it true when it is accurate.

[BIGugly]

None of us here have any idea what the players actually think of Caldwell. Even if they thought he was a complete dipstick, they are not going to come out and say it. So I really wish people would stop with the presumptuous "the players like Caldwell" stuff, We have no idea if that is true or not.

Really? Some of us here are friends of the players.

[BIGugly]

Players like him becasue he's soft...

Interesting, because when Dungy first came here, one of the first comments made about him was he was a "player's coach"...meaning he, too, was soft. Look at the numbers of players on IR during his and Caldwell's reigns...

[Warhorse]

So is it the QB....or the coach? When we got our buts handed to us in the playoffs...2004? against the Jets.....41-0 I believe, was that bad coaching or bad Manning? It seems that the credit or blame gets distributed by the assumptive quite creatively, and when it is most convenient.

[MAC]

So is it the QB....or the coach? When we got our buts handed to us in the playoffs...2004? against the Jets.....41-0 I believe, was that bad coaching or bad Manning? It seems that the credit or blame gets distributed by the assumptive quite creatively, and when it is most convenient.

That was the 2002 season. The 2004 season featured one of the Patriot debacles. I'm not sure which one was more painful, Peyton was a much better player in 2004. He played about as well as Mark Sanchez in the Jets loss. We didn't know that he was a perennial MVP / shoe-in hall of famer at the time.

[BIGugly]

I will say, I don't think Caldwell compares to Landry, Landry and watching the Dallas Cowboys as a kid is the reason I became a football fan and I swore I would hate the Cowboys forever when they fired Landry

I was never a boyz fan, but the way they handled Landry was disgraceful. Felt really bad for him. Was that when Jerry Jones bought the team?

[SaveJC]

hiring coordinators it a huge part of a coaches success....and jimbo hired both coyer and the special teams guy.

Can you be sure that those weren't the dictators decisions

[BOTT]

Can you be sure that those weren't the dictators decisions

i believe they were both ex coworkers/friends of caldwells, so i'm am assuming...

[JColts72]

Caldwell hired Coyer and Special team coach as he knew them for years

[mrati2d]

An interesting fact to think about is, every coach thats followed Tony Dungy went to the superbowl the following year, then went downhill. I think about Caldwell and try to decide who would consider him for a coaching position and I cant see anyone that would consider him. Im not going to bash on the guy, but he has never made me feel that he found a way to get the best out of the players. With the character on our team, everyone says the right things about him, but I also remember Peyton publicly trying to save Jim Mora's job when he was replaced with Dungy.

[JWF]

Just speculating but it seems with the lack of any news on the coaching front that Caldwell is most likely staying. I really hope im wrong too.

[SaveJC]

Caldwell hired Coyer and Special team coach as he knew them for years

You might be right but i cant find when they were co-workers

[Coffeedrinker]

I was never a boyz fan, but the way they handled Landry was disgraceful. Felt really bad for him. Was that when Jerry Jones bought the team?

Yup, he brought in his guy Jimmy Johnson.

[Case]

There is a guy on twitter who has over 90 signatures from season ticket holders protesting the return of Caldwell. It says if Caldwell returns they will not renew their tickets. I remember this guy walking around before the game.

@luckyhorseirsay is his name I believe

[JColts72]

MAYBE WE SHOULD NOT KEEP CALDWELL! Twiiter guy should get 9,000 signatures to not renew.

[Case]

MAYBE WE SHOULD NOT KEEP CALDWELL! Twiiter guy should get 9,000 signatures to not renew.

Pretty hard to get a lot. He only wanted season ticket holders.

[JColts72]

I'll probbaly save money and not renew NFL ticket

[Case]

I'll probbaly save money and not renew NFL ticket

I'll renew regardless but I hope Caldwell isn't back

[MAC]

There is a guy on twitter who has over 90 signatures from season ticket holders protesting the return of Caldwell. It says if Caldwell returns they will not renew their tickets. I remember this guy walking around before the game.

@luckyhorseirsay is his name I believe

People are basing their season ticket decisions on THAT. Don't know about you, but I don't go to games to watch the coach. Next season will feature either the return of the greatest QB of all time, or the introduction of one of the best QB prospects in years. Either way it will be a blast.

If they are stupid enough to give up their tickets, I'm sure the next 90 people on the waiting list will be thrilled to hear it.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The season ticket revolt doesn't matter unless the # of complaints absorbs the waiting list.

[Case]

The season ticket revolt doesn't matter unless the # of complaints absorbs the waiting list.

Just read Indystar and there is a website with over 4500 sigs

[BIGugly]

People are basing their season ticket decisions on THAT. Don't know about you, but I don't go to games to watch the coach.

Well, you should. You don't know what you're missing. You mean there is something else going on more exciting than the coaches?

Wow, I'll have to check that out next game. I sure hope there is a more fun coach to watch, though.

[BIGugly]

The season ticket revolt doesn't matter unless the # of complaints absorbs the waiting list.

Yep

Just read Indystar and there is a website with over 4500 sigs

That's about half, so far. Is the site legit?

[MAC]

Well, you should. You don't know what you're missing. You mean there is something else going on more exciting than the coaches?

Wow, I'll have to check that out next game. I sure hope there is a more fun coach to watch, though.

Well Gruden all but wears a clown outfit, and you always wonder with Ryan whether he might belly-bump an official clear across the field, but other than that, I don't know. Maybe the Colts can hire an "assistant coach in charge of graphically interpretting the head coaches emotions".

[BIGugly]

Well Gruden all but wears a clown outfit, and you always wonder with Ryan whether he might belly-bump an official clear across the field, but other than that, I don't know. Maybe the Colts can hire an "assistant coach in charge of graphically interpretting the head coaches emotions".

NO No no. It has to be the head coach.

[MAC]

NO No no. It has to be the head coach.

Are you sure? I was thinking Jim Tressel in a bozo outfit (and that sweater of course).

It would likely be of considerably more value than whatever it was he did this past season.

[TouchdownReggieWayne]

As a fan, I would be behind the decision to retain Caldwell if he will commit to not giving the opponent a timeout with 29 seconds to play when they would be likely kicking a 50 yard field goal to try and win rather than a chip shot after having time to work a play after the timeout. Sanchez is not a quality enough quarterback to run an efficient hurry-up. As a fan of an opponent of the Jets, I will take "Sanchez trying to hurry-up" every day of the week and twice on Sunday over "give them a timeout to let the coaches attack our very anemic defense."

As a fan, I would be behind the decision to retain Caldwell if he will coach the Colts to win Super Bowls rather than playing to rest on the laurels of the first quarter. I would be behind him if he didn't decide to have Matt Stover attempt a 51 yard field goal when Reggie Wayne was eating up Porter on the slant most of the night (except for the pick-6 that ended the game)

I don't think that any of those decisions are in Caldwell's character. I think he is such a detached coach that he will always give Mark Sanchez a free timeout and will lose that game 9 out of 10 times. I think he is such an aloof coach that he will always make the call to let a backup kicker with a 40% career average from 50+ kick rather than trusting Manning to gain 11 to keep a drive going. I think he is such a conservative coach that he will make calls to end out a half in the Super Bowl (unsuccessfully, might I add. The Saints scored 3 after getting the ball back) rather than making calls trying to stomp on their throats.

If Caldwell will just stand there with a headset on and do nothing but rearrange the gatorade bucket on the sidelines, cool. If he's involved in any decisions whatsoever, I say he has to go.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Maybe the Colts can hire an "assistant coach in charge of graphically interpretting the head coaches emotions".

That chart has already been documented:

[BIGugly]

As a fan, I would be behind the decision to retain Caldwell if he will commit to not giving the opponent a timeout with 29 seconds to play when they would be likely kicking a 50 yard field goal to try and win rather than a chip shot after having time to work a play after the timeout. Sanchez is not a quality enough quarterback to run an efficient hurry-up. As a fan of an opponent of the Jets, I will take "Sanchez trying to hurry-up" every day of the week and twice on Sunday over "give them a timeout to let the coaches attack our very anemic defense."

As a fan, I would be behind the decision to retain Caldwell if he will coach the Colts to win Super Bowls rather than playing to rest on the laurels of the first quarter. I would be behind him if he didn't decide to have Matt Stover attempt a 51 yard field goal when Reggie Wayne was eating up Porter on the slant most of the night (except for the pick-6 that ended the game)

I don't think that any of those decisions are in Caldwell's character. I think he is such a detached coach that he will always give Mark Sanchez a free timeout and will lose that game 9 out of 10 times. I think he is such an aloof coach that he will always make the call to let a backup kicker with a 40% career average from 50+ kick rather than trusting Manning to gain 11 to keep a drive going. I think he is such a conservative coach that he will make calls to end out a half in the Super Bowl (unsuccessfully, might I add. The Saints scored 3 after getting the ball back) rather than making calls trying to stomp on their throats.

If Caldwell will just stand there with a headset on and do nothing but rearrange the gatorade bucket on the sidelines, cool. If he's involved in any decisions whatsoever, I say he has to go.

Well done.

[MAC]

That chart has already been documented:

Yes, I've seen this before. It would rise to the level of clever if there were a range of other realistic emotions underneath - exited, thrilled, whatever. Making fun of his ability to keep an even keel - which is actually a virtue - would be funny. Instead it's just cruel.