Why the TEs are not being used ....it's not rocket science:

[JohnnyP]

I've been killing this organization the past two years about how they're building this team.  ...and i've seen a number of people here complaining about TEs not being used in this offense.  There's a very simple reason for this and it's something i've stated after they drafted Dorsett.  ....it's called the "law of diminishing returns".  They've got too many weapons on the field at once.  ...i know that sounds kind of silly being they can't even score 10pts anymore.  ....but the truth is, with TY, AJ, Moncrief, and now the need to give Dorsett some targets, something has to give ......and as of now, the TEs are paying the price.  When they decide to use the TEs more, it will only mean some of the receivers will have to take a back seat.  ...you can't feed everyone at once!

 

another thing to add to this:  Colts averaged 5.7 plays/drive last year......that was 9th fewest ....who averaged shorter drives? Take a look:

 

Oak

Jax

TB

Ten

Buf

STL

Cle

Was

 

The only reason these teams had fewer plays/drive is because they were all bad offensively.  We had one of the top offenses last year and still only averaged 5.7 plays/drive.  ....of course, the good news is that the 5.7 reflects our big play offense.  ...but again, less opportunities to get everyone involved with this kind of offensive philosophy.

 

I'd like to see more sustained drives going forward. ....There are a lot of new faces in this offense and young players having to play bigger roles. ....we need to simplify things and work the shorter routes and focus more on moving the chains and getting this team in to a rhythm offensively.  Then start expanding things over time.  It'll come together eventually.

[The Fish]

Huh, and here I thought they were staying into help block with the lame O line.

[backshoulderfade]

I don't know if it's rocket science or not. The one thing I do know; it's not trigonometry

[CoachSmok3]

 ....it's called the "law of diminishing returns".  They've got too many weapons on the field at once.  

 

 

Huh, and here I thought they were staying into help block with the lame O line.

 

 

I think you are both correct. i love numbers...they can be manipulated, but they will NEVER lie. too many cooks in the kitchen, too many hands in the cookie jar...whichever suits your fancy best... but agreed its a numbers game...

 

to have 4 prominent roles in the WR room... those in the TE/RB camp will have to take a reduced role....

increase the production from the TE/RB room...some in the WR camp will have to take a reduced role....

 

but...when talking solely on the lack of involvement from the TEs...just like The Fish said...they are helping to offset the exotic blitzes we have seen ad noseum in 2 games. 

 

superman and I were mentioning in a different thread tho that while the TEs have been more so focused on the blocking side of things...there has been many times that Allen and Fleener were available as check down options...but with eyes focused downfield, they were missed.

[CoachSmok3]

I don't know if it's rocket science or not. The one thing I do know; it's not trigonometry

 

 

HAHAHA! awesome. to be fair though...most coaches would teach history/ social studies...not math lol

[Smash Mouth]

I've been killing this organization the past two years about how they're building this team.  ...and i've seen a number of people here complaining about TEs not being used in this offense.  There's a very simple reason for this and it's something i've stated after they drafted Dorsett.  ....it's called the "law of diminishing returns".  They've got too many weapons on the field at once.  ...i know that sounds kind of silly being they can't even score 10pts anymore.  ....but the truth is, with TY, AJ, Moncrief, and now the need to give Dorsett some targets, something has to give ......and as of now, the TEs are paying the price.  When they decide to use the TEs more, it will only mean some of the receivers will have to take a back seat.  ...you can't feed everyone at once!

 

another thing to add to this:  Colts averaged 5.7 plays/drive last year......that was 9th fewest ....who averaged shorter drives? Take a look:

 

Oak

Jax

TB

Ten

Buf

STL

Cle

Was

 

The only reason these teams had fewer plays/drive is because they were all bad offensively.  We had one of the top offenses last year and still only averaged 5.7 plays/drive.  ....of course, the good news is that the 5.7 reflects our big play offense.  ...but again, less opportunities to get everyone involved with this kind of offensive philosophy.

 

I'd like to see more sustained drives going forward. ....There are a lot of new faces in this offense and young players having to play bigger roles. ....we need to simplify things and work the shorter routes and focus more on moving the chains and getting this team in to a rhythm offensively.  Then start expanding things over time.  It'll come together eventually.

We had the ball for 10 minutes in the 3rd Q before Gore fumbled. It was the only drive that we showed good patience.

[JohnnyP]

We had the ball for 10 minutes in the 3rd Q before Gore fumbled. It was the only drive that we showed good patience.

Yes...it was refreshing to see that drive.  I'd love for us to more of that.  I meant to bring mention of that particular drive in my original post, but forgot to do so.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Even when the offense is struggling, if we simplify things down and just focus on moving the chains, we'll be able to hit our big plays when we want them.

[ProblChld32]

I've been killing this organization the past two years about how they're building this team.  ...and i've seen a number of people here complaining about TEs not being used in this offense.  There's a very simple reason for this and it's something i've stated after they drafted Dorsett.  ....it's called the "law of diminishing returns".  They've got too many weapons on the field at once.  ...i know that sounds kind of silly being they can't even score 10pts anymore.  ....but the truth is, with TY, AJ, Moncrief, and now the need to give Dorsett some targets, something has to give ......and as of now, the TEs are paying the price.  When they decide to use the TEs more, it will only mean some of the receivers will have to take a back seat.  ...you can't feed everyone at once!

 

another thing to add to this:  Colts averaged 5.7 plays/drive last year......that was 9th fewest ....who averaged shorter drives? Take a look:

 

Oak

Jax

TB

Ten

Buf

STL

Cle

Was

 

The only reason these teams had fewer plays/drive is because they were all bad offensively.  We had one of the top offenses last year and still only averaged 5.7 plays/drive.  ....of course, the good news is that the 5.7 reflects our big play offense.  ...but again, less opportunities to get everyone involved with this kind of offensive philosophy.

 

I'd like to see more sustained drives going forward. ....There are a lot of new faces in this offense and young players having to play bigger roles. ....we need to simplify things and work the shorter routes and focus more on moving the chains and getting this team in to a rhythm offensively.  Then start expanding things over time.  It'll come together eventually.

 

You cant target a TE or WR when the OLINE cant even hold their water for 3 seconds.

[Surge89]

I've been killing this organization the past two years about how they're building this team.  ...and i've seen a number of people here complaining about TEs not being used in this offense.  There's a very simple reason for this and it's something i've stated after they drafted Dorsett.  ....it's called the "law of diminishing returns".  They've got too many weapons on the field at once.  ...i know that sounds kind of silly being they can't even score 10pts anymore.  ....but the truth is, with TY, AJ, Moncrief, and now the need to give Dorsett some targets, something has to give ......and as of now, the TEs are paying the price.  When they decide to use the TEs more, it will only mean some of the receivers will have to take a back seat.  ...you can't feed everyone at once!

 

another thing to add to this:  Colts averaged 5.7 plays/drive last year......that was 9th fewest ....who averaged shorter drives? Take a look:

 

Oak

Jax

TB

Ten

Buf

STL

Cle

Was

 

The only reason these teams had fewer plays/drive is because they were all bad offensively.  We had one of the top offenses last year and still only averaged 5.7 plays/drive.  ....of course, the good news is that the 5.7 reflects our big play offense.  ...but again, less opportunities to get everyone involved with this kind of offensive philosophy.

 

I'd like to see more sustained drives going forward. ....There are a lot of new faces in this offense and young players having to play bigger roles. ....we need to simplify things and work the shorter routes and focus more on moving the chains and getting this team in to a rhythm offensively.  Then start expanding things over time.  It'll come together eventually.

 

 

Here my thing though.  Did our GM and OC bring in Andre because they believed we needed a Number 1 Receiver?  Because to me it sure looks that way...  We are more then set with TY/Moncrief/Fleener/Allen and Dorsett subs in for TY every now and then.  Why are we depending on Andre.  We had a play (I don't remember when) where we had a max protect look with 3 TE's motioning from FB to inside, and the lone receiver was... ANDRE?????  I mean what the heck?  We just paid TY his money he needs to prove he is a number one receiver and if they don't want to risk further injury we have Moncrief who not only has more size than Hilton but also speed... I mean what... the...?

 

So I guess in relation to your post my big thing is there shouldn't be any diminishing returns as Andre should have been looked at as an experienced complimentary receiver not our Number 1.

[Surge89]

You cant target a TE or WR when the OLINE cant even hold their water for 3 seconds.

 

...jeeze...  They held their own just fine.  In fact there were multiple plays in which the TE stayed to block and flexed out and Luck flat out didn't even look their way...

[JohnnyP]

Another thing to add is this:  The top 5 teams last year, based on plays/drive were:

 

NO

Pit

NE

Car

GB

 

All very good offensive teams, with the exception of Carolina.  It's not like Pit, NE, and GB didn't make long plays either.  How many times did we see Jordy taking a long pass for a TD ...or Antonio Brown getting a big play as well.  ...it's what you do to lead up to those big plays that's important.  They'll take their small chunks and then hit you hard with the big play. 

 

I don't think we do the short stuff  very well currently.  .....that needs to change.  ....gotta keep Luck upright and sustain drives by getting smaller chunks of yards on offense.  There are just too many advantages to doing this to ignore. ....hope Pep and crew reevaluate the current philosophy.  ...it's just too hit or miss.  ...and we don't have a defense that can stay on the field that long.   They need some help as well from the offense.  They're not earth beaters, they can't be on the field for too many plays.

 

[CoachSmok3]

 as Andre should have been looked at as an experienced complimentary receiver not our Number 1.

 

so, I love AJ and was more excited when we signed him than as excited as I was when we traded for Trent (idc about hindsight and Im not afraid to admit that like 99% of EVERYONE else AT THAT TIME- I was * stoked lol) but, 

 

just like your quote above...he should absolutely be looked at as an experienced compliment to the young core we have in place. With an understanding the future is TY and Moncrief on the outsides and Dorsett in the slot (why we drafted him 1st im assuming...giving us a stable of 3 young weapons at WR)...what did i expect Andre's role to be? on the field still 40-60% of the offensive snaps, but in more "Fleener/Allen" type role. 

 

not not with a hand in the dirt...but as that close safety net in the middle of the field and on shallow crosses, whom can also occasionally find a seam and stretch the field vertically...and in the red zone/ goal line using his body to position against smaller DBs and come down with 6.

 

I believe that using AJ as a true WR1 we are stalling development on our younger core, and we are burning out AJ to a point where he can not excel at his own strengths. He has less time to work with the WRs IN GAME and give them coaching points to help counter how they are being played. Having him stretch the field every play is going to leave him gassed, so when he does have to flex some muscles, his tank is on E. playing him as a WR1 also puts less play time and focus on the young WRs who not only can produce, but will only get better with more game experience.

[Stephen]

Ty should have took the week off and recovered his leg. Dorsett and luck need more reps and Andre johnson needs to step up. Moncrief is the go to guy at the moment.

[Surge89]

so, I love AJ and was more excited when we signed him than as excited as I was when we traded for Trent (idc about hindsight and Im not afraid to admit that like 99% of EVERYONE else AT THAT TIME- I was * stoked lol) but, 

 

just like your quote above...he should absolutely be looked at as an experienced compliment to the young core we have in place. With an understanding the future is TY and Moncrief on the outsides and Dorsett in the slot (why we drafted him 1st im assuming...giving us a stable of 3 young weapons at WR)...what did i expect Andre's role to be? on the field still 40-60% of the offensive snaps, but in more "Fleener/Allen" type role. 

 

not not with a hand in the dirt...but as that close safety net in the middle of the field and on shallow crosses, whom can also occasionally find a seam and stretch the field vertically...and in the red zone/ goal line using his body to position against smaller DBs and come down with 6.

 

I believe that using AJ as a true WR1 we are stalling development on our younger core, and we are burning out AJ to a point where he can not excel at his own strengths. He has less time to work with the WRs IN GAME and give them coaching points to help counter how they are being played. Having him stretch the field every play is going to leave him gassed, so when he does have to flex some muscles, his tank is on E. playing him as a WR1 also puts less play time and focus on the young WRs who not only can produce, but will only get better with more game experience.

 

As to quote myself earlier... EGGxactly :-)

[Flash7]

During a recent press conference, Luck was asked why the TE's haven't been involved in the passing game. Luck answered that it was on him and he was the reason why they were not targeted. He mentioned that he simply didn't look their way and that he needs to do a better job of targeting them. 

 

I hope that with all of the criticism that Luck has received over these past two weeks, he has re-evaluated his game and simplified things. All he needs to do is get the ball out to the play makers. Just short, simple, crisp passes and let the play makers create something.

[Smash Mouth]

Yes...it was refreshing to see that drive.  I'd love for us to more of that.  I meant to bring mention of that particular drive in my original post, but forgot to do so.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Even when the offense is struggling, if we simplify things down and just focus on moving the chains, we'll be able to hit our big plays when we want them.

I always find myself yelling at the TV for Luck to look underneath, find someone short and get a 1st down.

 

so, I love AJ and was more excited when we signed him than as excited as I was when we traded for Trent (idc about hindsight and Im not afraid to admit that like 99% of EVERYONE else AT THAT TIME- I was * stoked lol) but, 

 

just like your quote above...he should absolutely be looked at as an experienced compliment to the young core we have in place. With an understanding the future is TY and Moncrief on the outsides and Dorsett in the slot (why we drafted him 1st im assuming...giving us a stable of 3 young weapons at WR)...what did i expect Andre's role to be? on the field still 40-60% of the offensive snaps, but in more "Fleener/Allen" type role. 

 

not not with a hand in the dirt...but as that close safety net in the middle of the field and on shallow crosses, whom can also occasionally find a seam and stretch the field vertically...and in the red zone/ goal line using his body to position against smaller DBs and come down with 6.

 

I believe that using AJ as a true WR1 we are stalling development on our younger core, and we are burning out AJ to a point where he can not excel at his own strengths. He has less time to work with the WRs IN GAME and give them coaching points to help counter how they are being played. Having him stretch the field every play is going to leave him gassed, so when he does have to flex some muscles, his tank is on E. playing him as a WR1 also puts less play time and focus on the young WRs who not only can produce, but will only get better with more game experience.

I thought that the Colts should have viewed Moncrief as their #2 based upon his performance last year.  I though Grigson was greedy and too focused on the short term when he signed AJ. 

[CoachSmok3]

I thought that the Colts should have viewed Moncrief as their #2 based upon his performance last year.  I though Grigson was greedy and too focused on the short term when he signed AJ. 

 

while I would have liked (in agreement) more of a declaration of Moncrief's value and future as a premier WR2 for the Colts...if I could play devil's advocate for a moment...

 

TY- stud

Moncrief- flashed late last year, otherwise (and really still) he is unproven to carry a load

Dorsett- undersized, fast rookie

Carter- size and ability...very raw, absolutely unproven at the NFL level

Brown- did anyone truly expect him to be more than a camp body?

Whalen- a great "Jeff Foster" player...but not a WR2 or WR3

Lankford- cut before preseason

 

Id argue that signing AJ was not "greedy" but was a def must. say that we took an OL or whoever in the draft other than Dorsett...

 

now we are looking at:

 

TY

Moncrief

Brown

Carter

Whalen

Lankford

 

and we can look at it from another angle...ota, training camp, and preseason hype...

 

could moncrief, carter, brown, whalen ball if needed? sure, why not...

 

remember the talk from 2012 ots, training camp, and preseason?----- WR Lavon Brazill was making waaaaaay more plays than TY...and most "experts/annalists/writers/bloggers" also put Brazill's name before Hilton...

 

AJ signing was absolutely what was needed. Now the way hes been being used...thats a whole different debate lol

[ProblChld32]

...jeeze...  They held their own just fine.  In fact there were multiple plays in which the TE stayed to block and flexed out and Luck flat out didn't even look their way...

 

When you're getting harassed every other play its hard to feel comfortable enough to go through your progressions. 

[Superman]

I disagree with the premise. TEs have been open, and Luck has missed them. They've also been kept in to block more than we'd like. But it's not about 'too many weapons.' We've had heavy personnel sets with 1 receiver on the field, and the TEs still get no looks. Dwayne Allen was wide open down the middle of the field on Monday night, and Luck didn't see it. 

 

Like all the other offensive issues, this one is multi-pronged.

[Smash Mouth]

I disagree with the premise. TEs have been open, and Luck has missed them. They've also been kept in to block more than we'd like. But it's not about 'too many weapons.' We've had heavy personnel sets with 1 receiver on the field, and the TEs still get no looks. Dwayne Allen was wide open down the middle of the field on Monday night, and Luck didn't see it. 

 

Like all the other offensive issues, this one is multi-pronged.

Pep said that he's been to conservative keeping 7-8 guys into block on 3rd down and the defense rushes 3 or 4 guys.  But the real issue is that too often the team is in 3rd and long and the defense is dictating the play.

 

You're right that Luck is missing open TEs but he's' rushing his reads or he's locking onto receivers.  He's doing all the things he's not supposed to do. But this is what pressure does.

[CoachSmok3]

Like all the other offensive issues, this one is multi-pronged.

 

 

Pep said that he's been to conservative keeping 7-8 guys into block on 3rd down and the defense rushes 3 or 4 guys.  But the real issue is that too often the team is in 3rd and long and the defense is dictating the play.

 

You're right that Luck is missing open TEs but he's' rushing his reads or he's locking onto receivers.  He's doing all the things he's not supposed to do. But this is what pressure does.

 

i believe both of you are touching on the same idea...

 

the lack of progressing through reads, and field/play awareness in general has left many plays on the field in regards to "dink and dunk" to the TEs... the plays have been there but havent connected...

 

and...not only have they not connected...but they HAVE been fewer and farther between than we may be used to at this point...

 

BECAUSE, we have been keeping 7-8 people in for max protects far more than (again) we may be used to.

 

AND, this is absolutely, "what pressure does".

 

Offense wins games, defense wins championships...why? because if a defense can dictate what the offense does...you catch me drift

 

...and you stated it above

[Superman]

Pep said that he's been to conservative keeping 7-8 guys into block on 3rd down and the defense rushes 3 or 4 guys.  But the real issue is that too often the team is in 3rd and long and the defense is dictating the play.

 

You're right that Luck is missing open TEs but he's' rushing his reads or he's locking onto receivers.  He's doing all the things he's not supposed to do. But this is what pressure does.

 

Hot routes, rub routes, screens, and play action can all help. That's all sorely lacking.

 

And of course, running the ball.

[ThaCaliColt]

I don't know if it's rocket science or not. The one thing I do know; it's not trigonometry

NICE! That is classic.

[Kyle]

You cant target a TE or WR when the OLINE cant even hold their water for 3 seconds.

here's the thing about that.  it seems to me, when the D was getting to Luck in 3 seconds, they were sending 5 or 6 guys on a blitz.  Luck kept trying to throw the long ball against the blitz to whatever WR was going deep (in week 2 he seemed to throw to whoever Revis was guarding, smh).

 

We need to take a page out of NE's playbook and throw the damn checkdown pass when the D blitzes.    

[Superman]

You cant target a TE or WR when the OLINE cant even hold their water for 3 seconds.

 

Yes you can. I don't think you appreciate how long three seconds is during an NFL play.

 

Since 2011, no starting QB has taken three seconds on average to throw the ball. Even players who are known for scrambling to extend plays, like Wilson and Romo, usually take about 2.8 seconds on average. Three seconds is an eternity on a play by play basis, and there is no offensive line that is going to consistently provide that much time for the QB to get rid of the ball, nor is that a typical requirement for an NFL passing game.  

[dgambill]

Yes you can. I don't think you appreciate how long three seconds is during an NFL play.

 

Since 2011, no starting QB has taken three seconds on average to throw the ball. Even players who are known for scrambling to extend plays, like Wilson and Romo, usually take about 2.8 seconds on average. Three seconds is an eternity on a play by play basis, and there is no offensive line that is going to consistently provide that much time for the QB to get rid of the ball, nor is that a typical requirement for an NFL passing game.  

Exactly. Denver wasn't giving Peyton that much time and when he switched back to shotgun I bet he was only holding it for about 1 second before delivering a pass. Imo Superman is right...the problem is multi-pronged....an OL element of course, a play calling element from Pep in that we aren't running plays routes that give Andrew a quick check down or quick outlets and we aren't getting Gore involved enough either running or catching out of the back field, and finally Luck isn't getting rid of the ball quick enough. There are players open...and sometimes he just needs to throw it away or even just check it down to a back for a couple yards but he is just keying in on a couple of progressions (notably TY) and not much else. Holding the ball and delivering throws late and down the field is a recipe for disaster. Andrew has a lot of Big Ben in him....especially the early years. He is very talented but he has yet to get to the point where he is reading defenses and blitzs and getting the ball out quickly and getting the team in plays to take advantage of them. I mean watch Tom Brady...Peyton change the play up and gash them...I know its year 4 and he has a ways to go but that is where his game needs to improve.....and of course I think some better play calling and play designs would help with that as well. Lots going wrong...so plenty of blame to go around. We have time to clean it up but lets not act like we have it all together until we beat the creme of the crop....Ten/Jax/Cle etc...that doesn't mean we have things fixed...we need to show progress against the best.

[crestmount]

Did Fleener actually play last week?

[Gavin]

Did Fleener actually play last week?

46 snaps