Sporting News ranks Grigson the 10th best GM

[Superman]

Well said.  In terms of Richardson, you have to wonder what Grigson saw on film to make such a bold trade for him.  Same with Werner.  And interestingly, those guys were both inactive for the most important Colts game since 2012, the AFCCG against the Pats.  It doesn't look too good if you have 2 first round picks inactive for your most important game in 3 years.

 

Reese has made a lot of good decisions, in my opinion.  Let's also not forget that he has 2 Super Bowl rings.  Take a look at his 2007 and 2008 drafts

 

If you take the current Texans roster and add a good QB, they'd be near the top of the conference.  Most GMs don't have the luxury of having the first overall pick when the best QB prospect in 15 years is coming out.  Just because they haven't figured out the QB position, doesn't mean Smith is a bad GM.

 

The Colts drafted pretty well in 2003 and 2004; that doesn't mean Bill Polian was still a good GM in 2010.

 

Specific to Jerry Reese, he had three bad drafts in a row, from 2011 to 2013. But we're talking about his 2007 and 2008 drafts?

 

The Texans roster isn't as good as you say it is. Outside of JJ Watt, it's pretty regular. They have two offensive playmakers and a couple of good linemen. On defense, they have a bad secondary and barely average linebackers. And Rick Smith consistently picks 10-20 spots ahead of whoever is drafting for the Colts. He's had 2 #1 overall picks, and has picked in the top 15 three other times, and they still don't have a QB. In 2008, they traded out of #18, the spot Baltimore came up to for Flacco. They took Kareem Jackson in 2010, two picks before Demaryius Thomas, 4 picks before Dez Bryant. Rick Smith is not a better GM than Ryan Grigson, and the Texans roster is not better than the Colts.

[Superman]

Because it wasn't his choice. 

 

Okay, so we take all the good decisions this team has made since 2012 out of Grigson's hands -- either it was a no-brainer, or it wasn't his choice -- and we just saddle him with the bad decisions. Makes sense.

 

If it wasn't Grigson's choice to take Luck at #1 in 2012, then how do we know it was his choice to trade away our first rounder for Trent Richardson a year later?

[21isSuperman]

I won't ask what Spielman has done; he's had some good years. Yet he blew #4 on Kalil. They gave Linval Joseph more guaranteed money than we gave Arthur Jones. They paid Greg Jennings $9m/year. 

Yeah, he's made some questionable contract decisions.  But he's had some really good drafts.  Also, he may have whiffed on Kalil at #4, but don't forget that they were actually picking #3 and got the Browns to trade 4 picks to move up 1 spot to take a player they would have had at #4 anyway.  You can say that's the Browns being stupid, but I think it shows that he's able to manipulate the draft board.  Spielman drafts Pro Bowlers and is one of the best GMs in the league at doing that (slightly better than Grigs in terms of %: http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000481490/active-gms-with-best-record-of-drafting-pro-bowlers). Add in Rhodes, Floyd, Harrison Smith, and Bridgewater, and his percentage will be going up a lot.

 

What has Steve Keim done? 

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/draft.htm

His 2013 draft was awful. Best player is either Mathieu (who really hasn't done much, but was a third rounder), and Ellington (a sixth rounder). Talk about blowing a first rounder, they missed at #7. Grigson missed at #22, and Werner has done more for us than Cooper has done for them. His 2014 draft wasn't much better; John Brown is pretty good, and that's about it. He did a no-brainer trade for Carson Palmer, when the Raiders were probably going to cut him.

 

Using your 'look at his first rounders' criteria, how is Keim any better than Grigson? Using your 'that move was a no-brainer' criteria, he shouldn't get credit for the Palmer trade.

No GM is perfect.  I just like what Keim has built in Arizona and what Spielman has built in Minny and I think you can make a really strong case that their track cases are better than Grigs. 

 

The difference between their acquisition of Palmer and our acquisition of Luck is that any team in the league could have made an offer to the Raiders for Palmer, but the only team that had a shot at drafting Luck was Indy.  I hate dinging GMs for draft picks that can't stay healthy, so I didn't criticize Grigs for Holmes' injuries, but if Mathieu can stay healthy, I think he can be a great player and he made a lot of plays before his injury.

 

Once again, just to reiterate and clarify: I don't think Grigson is a terrible GM, I just don't think he's top 10.  I think he's middle of the pack, somewhere in the 14-17 range.

[ruksak]

Okay, so we take all the good decisions this team has made since 2012 out of Grigson's hands -- either it was a no-brainer, or it wasn't his choice -- and we just saddle him with the bad decisions. Makes sense.

 

I think you're taking things a bit far here. 

 

First off, I really like Grigs and I would agree with the assessment that's he's one of the better GM's in the league. 

 

The dynamic between 2012 round #1 pick #1 and the picks which followed are DRAMATICALLY different. We must consider what preceded this draft, the events surrounding Peyton's career, his severing from the team, the horror of 2011, and most notably.... Irsay's direct involvement in HIS teams choice to end up where we were at the precipice of the 2012 draft. 

 

Simply put; There is no way in holy hell that Irsay put that #1 pick in Grigson's hands....no filth flarnin' filthin' way. 

 

Beyond that first overall pick, I suppose the rest of the draft was in Grigson's hands, and he did a damn admirable job of it. 

 

 

If it wasn't Grigson's choice to take Luck at #1 in 2012, then how do we know it was his choice to trade away our first rounder for Trent Richardson a year later?

 

Commonsense leads us there. It wasn't Grigs decision to take Luck, though I assume he likely would've taken him if given full run on that call. It was Grigs decision to trade for Trent. He effectively owned the decision as far as I know. 

 

Do you want to claim that it makes sense that Irsay wasn't part of the Luck pick? 

[21isSuperman]

The Colts drafted pretty well in 2003 and 2004; that doesn't mean Bill Polian was still a good GM in 2010.

 

Specific to Jerry Reese, he had three bad drafts in a row, from 2011 to 2013. But we're talking about his 2007 and 2008 drafts?

 

The Texans roster isn't as good as you say it is. Outside of JJ Watt, it's pretty regular. They have two offensive playmakers and a couple of good linemen. On defense, they have a bad secondary and barely average linebackers. And Rick Smith consistently picks 10-20 spots ahead of whoever is drafting for the Colts. He's had 2 #1 overall picks, and has picked in the top 15 three other times, and they still don't have a QB. In 2008, they traded out of #18, the spot Baltimore came up to for Flacco. They took Kareem Jackson in 2010, two picks before Demaryius Thomas, 4 picks before Dez Bryant. Rick Smith is not a better GM than Ryan Grigson, and the Texans roster is not better than the Colts.

The Texans are an interesting one.  I think Smith has made quite a few really good decisions in his time.  He essentially built the team from nothing, had them at the top of the division for a period and had one of the league's best defenses for a few years, all despite not being able to find a solid QB

[Superman]

Yeah, he's made some questionable contract decisions.  But he's had some really good drafts.  Also, he may have whiffed on Kalil at #4, but don't forget that they were actually picking #3 and got the Browns to trade 4 picks to move up 1 spot to take a player they would have had at #4 anyway.  You can say that's the Browns being stupid, but I think it shows that he's able to manipulate the draft board.  Spielman drafts Pro Bowlers and is one of the best GMs in the league at doing that (slightly better than Grigs in terms of %: http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000481490/active-gms-with-best-record-of-drafting-pro-bowlers). Add in Rhodes, Floyd, Harrison Smith, and Bridgewater, and his percentage will be going up a lot.

 

That breakdown doesn't give Grigson credit for Vontae Davis. I don't know how that compares to any players they left off for Spielman, but Davis really should count. Mike Adams was an alternate in 2014, as a vet minimum June acquisition. D'Qwell was an alternate, but I'm not counting him because I don't think he had a Pro Bowl year; he just had a lot of tackles. The other two Colts Pro Bowlers last year are players that Grigson has re-signed since taking over.

 

To the Kalil pick, he got a reprieve at #3, and still whiffed at #4. I'm not sure how that helps his cause. But yes, he does work the phones really well leading up to and during the draft. The Percy Harvin trade is a testament to his work, but they used that to move back up for Cordarrelle Patterson, and he isn't good (believe it or not, QBs have thrown more interceptions his way than TDs). That's a first round WR; Donte Moncrief outproduced him last season.

 

Like I said, I think Spielman is good, but my point is that we can magnify any GM's mistakes in any given year, especially in the draft (and especially in the first round of the 2013 draft; the Steelers took Jarvis Jones at #15; the Giants took Justin Pugh at #19; the Ravens took Matt Elam at #32; that first round was brutal). 

 

No GM is perfect.  I just like what Keim has built in Arizona and what Spielman has built in Minny and I think you can make a really strong case that their track cases are better than Grigs.

 

Spielman is arguable. I don't see how you can make that case for Keim.

 

The difference between their acquisition of Palmer and our acquisition of Luck is that any team in the league could have made an offer to the Raiders for Palmer, but the only team that had a shot at drafting Luck was Indy.  I hate dinging GMs for draft picks that can't stay healthy, so I didn't criticize Grigs for Holmes' injuries, but if Mathieu can stay healthy, I think he can be a great player and he made a lot of plays before his injury.

 

We don't know who made offers to the Raiders for Palmer. We know that Palmer forced his way out of Oakland by refusing to take a paycut, and the trade wasn't finalized until he agreed to a restructured contract -- essentially a paycut. He basically dictated the terms of his trade, and wasn't going to be traded to just any team.

 

I'm giving credit to Keim for Mathieu. That draft was still not good.

 

Once again, just to reiterate and clarify: I don't think Grigson is a terrible GM, I just don't think he's top 10.  I think he's middle of the pack, somewhere in the 14-17 range.

 

But you make that case by stating everything Grigson hasn't absolutely nailed, and taking away credit for the good decisions he's made. Even calling Hilton a no-brainer is strange; Hilton is the first WR under the new CBA to be extended after three seasons. It's an unprecedented contract, and the first re-signing of the team's critical 2012 draft class. How is that a no-brainer?

 

Grigson absolutely isn't perfect. I don't know or care whether he's top ten, as I don't really think it's possible to quantify (although if you use that percentage of draft picks in the Pro Bowl, he's tied for 10th, so...) My issue is with the way he's been torn down, and it's mostly on the basis of Werner and Richardson. Nothing else matters. I can't get with that.

[Gavin]

Rick Spielman?  Steve Keim?

 Cardinals already had plenty of talent in place

 

Campbell

Dan Williams

Patrick Peterson

Daryl Washington

Micheal Floyd

Larry Fitzgerald

 

He gets credit though for Palmer (Though he is nothing great, But he is better then what they had)

Bruce Arians he gets credit for that definitly

Tyrann Mathieu

 

Rick Spielman maybe, They did not have as much talent in place and he was instrumental in getting Favre and also trading for Jared Allen and signing a very good FB in Jerome Felton who ended up a Pro Bowler, He also drafted Adrian Peterson, Phil Loadholt and John Sullivan

[Superman]

The Texans are an interesting one.  I think Smith has made quite a few really good decisions in his time.  He essentially built the team from nothing, had them at the top of the division for a period and had one of the league's best defenses for a few years, all despite not being able to find a solid QB

 

Look at his roster. What exactly has he built them into? A team than has one good year every five seasons?

 

JJ Watt got more MVP votes than Andrew Luck last year (13 to 0). He's awesome, and Smith deserves credit for that draft pick, no question. But he's basically it for them. He is the difference between 3-13 and 9-7. And again, this is a GM that's had plenty of draft equity in his time.

 

Grigson has essentially built the Colts roster from the bottom up, and in 3 seasons, they were in the AFCCG. Luck is also awesome, but what about Vontae Davis, TY Hilton, etc., and their part in that season? He rebuilt an entire roster, and only had one season of good draft position. We didn't have a chance at Sheldon Richardson at #13 in 2013, whereas Smith picked Watt at #11 in 2011 (after a 6-10 season because his roster was bad after five years of his GMing). 

[Superman]

Commonsense leads us there. It wasn't Grigs decision to take Luck, though I assume he likely would've taken him if given full run on that call. It was Grigs decision to trade for Trent. He effectively owned the decision as far as I know. 

 

Do you want to claim that it makes sense that Irsay wasn't part of the Luck pick? 

 

Good post.

 

Taking the portion above, we're saying 'Grigson might have taken Luck himself, but we'll never know because Irsay really made the decision, so no credit to Grigson.' 

 

I know for a fact that Irsay was heavily involved in the Luck pick. But doesn't it make sense that Grigson was just as involved? Who do we think watched the film of both of them and said 'yeah, Luck is definitely better than Griffin'? We can say that the buck stopped at Irsay, but to strip Grigson of all credit is what I think takes it too far.

 

Yes, I was being sarcastic earlier. Sorry. It's just kind of strange to me to say "Grigson gets no credit for the Luck pick." And I feel the same way about Polian and Manning. GMs mess up draft decisions all the time.

[21isSuperman]

But you make that case by stating everything Grigson hasn't absolutely nailed, and taking away credit for the good decisions he's made. Even calling Hilton a no-brainer is strange; Hilton is the first WR under the new CBA to be extended after three seasons. It's an unprecedented contract, and the first re-signing of the team's critical 2012 draft class. How is that a no-brainer?

 

Grigson absolutely isn't perfect. I don't know or care whether he's top ten, as I don't really think it's possible to quantify (although if you use that percentage of draft picks in the Pro Bowl, he's tied for 10th, so...) My issue is with the way he's been torn down, and it's mostly on the basis of Werner and Richardson. Nothing else matters. I can't get with that.

I don't think Grigson is terrible and he does deserve a lot of credit for some of the moves he's made, like the Vontae trade, bringing in Freeman from the CFL, etc.  But I don't think his criticisms stem just from Werner and Richardson.  His 2013 draft and free agent class was really iffy overall, and drafting Dorsett could be considered questionable (though that has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm not trying to create that discussion again).  However, as you said, it isn't possible to quantify something like this.  I like Grigson's aggressive approach, and he deserves a ton of credit for some of his moves, but I don't think he's a top 10 GM.

 

Interestingly, I remember a lot of people saying they wanted Reggie McKenzie to be our GM, and this article (take it for what it's worth) lists him as #32 in the league (though it gives him credit for having solid foundational pieces in Carr and Mack)

[21isSuperman]

Look at his roster. What exactly has he built them into? A team than has one good year every five seasons?

 

JJ Watt got more MVP votes than Andrew Luck last year (13 to 0). He's awesome, and Smith deserves credit for that draft pick, no question. But he's basically it for them. He is the difference between 3-13 and 9-7. And again, this is a GM that's had plenty of draft equity in his time.

 

Grigson has essentially built the Colts roster from the bottom up, and in 3 seasons, they were in the AFCCG. Luck is also awesome, but what about Vontae Davis, TY Hilton, etc., and their part in that season? He rebuilt an entire roster, and only had one season of good draft position. We didn't have a chance at Sheldon Richardson at #13 in 2013, whereas Smith picked Watt at #11 in 2011 (after a 6-10 season because his roster was bad after five years of his GMing). 

Just as a (potentially irrelevant) hypothetical, what do you think the Texans' record would be over the last 3 years if they had Luck and we had Schaub/Fitzpatrick/Savage/Mallet?

[Superman]

I don't think Grigson is terrible and he does deserve a lot of credit for some of the moves he's made, like the Vontae trade, bringing in Freeman from the CFL, etc.  But I don't think his criticisms stem just from Werner and Richardson.  His 2013 draft and free agent class was really iffy overall, and drafting Dorsett could be considered questionable (though that has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm not trying to create that discussion again).  However, as you said, it isn't possible to quantify something like this.  I like Grigson's aggressive approach, and he deserves a ton of credit for some of his moves, but I don't think he's a top 10 GM.

 

Interestingly, I remember a lot of people saying they wanted Reggie McKenzie to be our GM, and this article (take it for what it's worth) lists him as #32 in the league (though it gives him credit for having solid foundational pieces in Carr and Mack)

 

A lot of teams had an iffy draft in 2013, when you look at it. The free agent class wasn't great, but it served its purpose. And while we can go micro, we can also recognize that the team went 11-5 and got better in the postseason. 

 

I don't think drafting Dorsett is questionable, but regardless, from a scouting standpoint, that's a discussion for two years from now. The draft strategy is easy to understand.

 

Top 10 isn't even that lofty, out of 32. I don't want the Colts to be a top 10 team. That's middle of the pack, IMO. Anything out of the top 6-7 is muddled anyways. We can debate that kind of list for years, literally (people are still debating Bill Polian). 

 

McKenzie was the hottest commodity that offseason, and he was always going to the Raiders. Erik DeCosta was probably #2, and he took himself out of the running. Marc Ross was a hot name, but the Giants drafting in 2012 and 2013 didn't really help his resume. Looking at the guys who have been hired and fired since then, and including McKenzie who probably should be gone, I'm fine with the hire of Grigson.

 

And I'll say again, I think he made moves with a purpose his first three years, even though they weren't all the best moves. There was a bit of a ceiling to what he could really do, and we would have had to get really lucky to have more success as a team. It's important to keep perspective. But we're past that now. The struggles with the OL are understandable, but he's had enough time to get this thing pointed in the right direction. Both he and Pagano are on the clock, IMO. I think they were just fine for the rebuild phase, and I think they did a good job. They have to prove now that they are the right pair for the contending phase. If things aren't going well this season, my tune on one or both of them of them will change.

[Superman]

Just as a (potentially irrelevant) hypothetical, what do you think the Texans' record would be over the last 3 years if they had Luck and we had Schaub/Fitzpatrick/Savage/Mallet?

 

Depends on the coach, but they'd probably have the 30+ wins we have, and we'd probably be 5 wins/year. Send JJ Watt to the Colts, and maybe that balances out a bit more.

[21isSuperman]

A lot of teams had an iffy draft in 2013, when you look at it. The free agent class wasn't great, but it served its purpose. And while we can go micro, we can also recognize that the team went 11-5 and got better in the postseason. 

 

I don't think drafting Dorsett is questionable, but regardless, from a scouting standpoint, that's a discussion for two years from now. The draft strategy is easy to understand.

 

Top 10 isn't even that lofty, out of 32. I don't want the Colts to be a top 10 team. That's middle of the pack, IMO. Anything out of the top 6-7 is muddled anyways. We can debate that kind of list for years, literally (people are still debating Bill Polian). 

 

McKenzie was the hottest commodity that offseason, and he was always going to the Raiders. Erik DeCosta was probably #2, and he took himself out of the running. Marc Ross was a hot name, but the Giants drafting in 2012 and 2013 didn't really help his resume. Looking at the guys who have been hired and fired since then, and including McKenzie who probably should be gone, I'm fine with the hire of Grigson.

 

And I'll say again, I think he made moves with a purpose his first three years, even though they weren't all the best moves. There was a bit of a ceiling to what he could really do, and we would have had to get really lucky to have more success as a team. It's important to keep perspective. But we're past that now. The struggles with the OL are understandable, but he's had enough time to get this thing pointed in the right direction. Both he and Pagano are on the clock, IMO. I think they were just fine for the rebuild phase, and I think they did a good job. They have to prove now that they are the right pair for the contending phase. If things aren't going well this season, my tune on one or both of them of them will change.

Well stated.  Always a pleasure talking football with (and learning from) you, bud!

[Colts_Fan12]

I stopped reading when I saw who wrote it. If Grigson is 10th then there are a lot of poor GM's in the league.

Now flood me with the usual list of why he is good.

I agree with you people try and tell me how good he is I just don't see it

[ColtsfaninTexas]

I think it's a good idea that we don't have Pagano locked up yet. 

[RockThatBlue]

Where would everybody here rate him out of all 32 GMs? I think 10 is probably about right (though i dont agree with all the ratings on that list but think 10 is probably about right for grigson) he's not an elite GM but he's pretty good IMO. He misses sometimes but he's also hit on a lot of moves too.

[BOTT]

My reading forte? You ask for a list and now you want to insult me? Typical you.

I wasn't actually asking for a list. I was mocking the list I knew someone like,you would make. Duh

[BOTT]

Where would everybody here rate him out of all 32 GMs? I think 10 is probably about right (though i dont agree with all the ratings on that list but think 10 is probably about right for grigson) he's not an elite GM but he's pretty good IMO. He misses sometimes but he's also hit on a lot of moves too.

Truth is there are probably a handful of excellent so GM's and then the rest. I'm guessing the "best" GM's were lucky enough to land a QB.

[NFLfan]

I won't ask what Spielman has done; he's had some good years. Yet he blew #4 on Kalil. They gave Linval Joseph more guaranteed money than we gave Arthur Jones. They paid Greg Jennings $9m/year.

Who performed better last year, Arthur Jones or Linval Joseph? Who gave his team more for its money?

You mention Kalil (and Patterson in another post) but leave out all the other Rd 1 draft picks Spielman has hit on (Harrison Smith, Anthony Barr, Sharif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes). And Bridgewater too, but I know many outside of Vikings fans are not high on him.

The Percy Harvin trade is a testament to his work, but they used that to move back up for Cordarrelle Patterson, and he isn't good (believe it or not, QBs have thrown more interceptions his way than TDs). That's a first round WR; Donte Moncrief outproduced him last season.

To be fair, you should have compared Patterson's rookie season to Moncrief's rookie year. Patterson had 9 total TDs (4 receiving, 3 rushing, 2 KO returns). He had better numbers than Moncrief with a combination of Ponder & Cassell throwing to him while Moncrief had the benefit of having the great Andrew Luck as his QB. True, Patterson performed miserably last year but no one knows how Moncrief will play this year. Most Vikings fans took it for granted that Patterson would have a breakout year in 2014 following his impressive rookie season, and he did not. Colts fans probably assume Moncrief will perform well his second year but that is not guaranteed.

Anyway, there are only a few GMs that I would take over Spielman (Newsome, Ted Thompson, Schneider, maybe Colbert). This article ranks him 19th while Keim was in the top 5. Keim has not done enough to merit such a lofty ranking. I would take Grigson over Keim.

[BOTT]

Adongo for Star Lotulelei

[Superman]

Who performed better last year, Arthur Jones or Linval Joseph? Who gave his team more for its money?

You mention Kalil (and Patterson in another post) but leave out all the other Rd 1 draft picks Spielman has hit on (Harrison Smith, Anthony Barr, Sharif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes). And Bridgewater too, but I know many outside of Vikings fans are not high on him.

To be fair, you should have compared Patterson's rookie season to Moncrief's rookie year. Patterson had 9 total TDs (4 receiving, 3 rushing, 2 KO returns). He had better numbers than Moncrief with a combination of Ponder & Cassell throwing to him while Moncrief had the benefit of having the great Andrew Luck as his QB. True, Patterson performed miserably last year but no one knows how Moncrief will play this year. Most Vikings fans took it for granted that Patterson would have a breakout year in 2014 following his impressive rookie season, and he did not. Colts fans probably assume Moncrief will perform well his second year but that is not guaranteed.

Anyway, there are only a few GMs that I would take over Spielman (Newsome, Ted Thompson, Schneider, maybe Colbert). This article ranks him 19th while Keim was in the top 5. Keim has not done enough to merit such a lofty ranking. I would take Grigson over Keim.

 

Joseph had a better year in 2014, primarily because Jones got hurt early. But the actual point is that they paid a premium for a so-so free agent (and I said that when they signed him), just like we did. I'm not saying that Jones is better than Joseph, although I think he is. We'll see about that.

 

I mentioned Kalil because he's a blown #4 pick. It's a blemish on Spielman's record. Doesn't make Spielman a bad GM, and again, that's my point. Every GM has some blemishes, and if we're going to bang on Grigson for the Werner pick at #22 (which Colts fans love to do), we kind of have to talk about Spielman -- who 21 is saying is better than Grigson -- picking Kalil at #4.

 

On Patterson, just because he regressed in Year 2 doesn't mean Moncrief (or anyone else) will. That's not a legitimate consideration. The fact that Moncrief had a better rookie season than Patterson's Year 2 speaks poorly of Patterson, no one else. Especially considering he actually had better QBing in Year 2. 

 

But again, the point wasn't 'Moncrief > Patterson.' The point was that, even when good GMs do good things, like flipping Harvin for all those picks, they still can make mistakes. 

 

You seem to feel compelled to defend your GM, and I just want you to know, that's not necessary. I was trying to point out that there's a bit of a double standard around here when it comes to Ryan Grigson. We micro-analyze everything he does, to the exclusion of the big picture. And we strip him of credit where it's deserved (IMO), and then magnify the blemishes, as if other GMs don't have black marks on their record also. Even the very respectable Rick Spielman, who I said I think is good. I'm not trying to cut him down, at all.

 

I obviously agree with you on Keim. 

[Dustin]

Gosder Cherilus was the highest paid RT in NFL history. 

[Dustin]

Josh Chapman - Bad

Bjoern Werner - Bad

Montori Hughes - Bad

Jonathon Newsome - Ok

 

These are the 3 rostered defenders the Colts have drafted since 2012. 

[Superman]

Gosder Cherilus was the highest paid RT in NFL history. 

 

By $650K/year. Over Phil Loadholt, who's probably been just as underwhelming for the Vikings as Cherilus was for us.

[Dustin]

When Ryan Grigson was hired he said his goal was to "build the best o-line in football". 

 

The Colts will start the 2015 season with Todd Herremans, Khaled Homes, and Lance Louis on the interior o-line. 

[Dustin]

By $650K/year. Over Phil Loadholt, who's probably been just as underwhelming for the Vikings as Cherilus was for us.

 

LOL Loadholt is/was one of the best tackles in the NFL and had one great year and one mediocre year that wasn't as close to bad as Cherilus' 2013. 

[NFLfan]

By $650K/year. Over Phil Loadholt, who's probably been just as underwhelming for the Vikings as Cherilus was for us.

This is laughable. You obviously have not watched the Vikings.

Underwhelming?

Quote:

Right tackle Phil Loadholt (+25.0) earned All-Pro honors in our eyes. He didn’t get the press he garnered last year as the team struggled but he remains the prototypical right tackle.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/4/

[wig]

 There were reports that the Colts didn't view Goldman or Malcolm Brown as first round picks.  If that's true, it again makes you wonder what they were watching on film.

 

 

This is just embarrassing.  

[Superman]

LOL Loadholt is/was one of the best tackles in the NFL and had one great year and one mediocre year that wasn't as close to bad as Cherilus' 2013. 

 

This is laughable. You obviously have not watched the Vikings.

Underwhelming?

Quote:

Right tackle Phil Loadholt (+25.0) earned All-Pro honors in our eyes. He didn’t get the press he garnered last year as the team struggled but he remains the prototypical right tackle.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/4/

 

Loadholt had a good 2013, a bad and injury filled 2014 (just like Cherilus), and now is making $5m on IR in 2015. For $6.25m/year, since 2013, the same year Cherilus was signed.

 

Cherilus wasn't a good signing, and I'm not defending it. But let's stop acting like Grigson broke the bank on him.

[Superman]

This is just embarrassing.  

 

Eddie Goldman wasn't drafted in the first round. Malcom Brown was supposed to be a top 20 pick, and dropped to #32. Lots of teams thought the same thing. For what little it's worth, I wasn't thrilled with either of them. Good prospects, but I didn't think either was worthy of #29.

[NewColtsFan]

Josh Chapman - Bad

Bjoern Werner - Bad

Montori Hughes - Bad

Jonathon Newsome - Ok

 

These are the 3 rostered defenders the Colts have drafted since 2012. 

 

You're trying too hard to make a point.    Hard enough that you're distorting things to do so.

 

Newsome tied for first for all NFL rookies in sacks.    And that's playing part time.   And that's..... "OK"...?    A 5th round pick?  OK?     And some thought we over-drafted Newsome.    Clearly not.   Grigson was spot on.

 

Chapman hasn't worked out so far,  but he was the right pick at the right spot in the draft.    His first year was a wash-out due to his knee, so he's only had two years so far.    He's got to deliver this year.

 

Hughes hasn't worked out either,  but he only cost us a 4th round pick and he's only played two seasons.    He's like Chapman, he has to deliver this year.

 

And Werner has been a huge disappointment.    The whole '13 draft class has been quite disappointing frankly.   But Werner is being flipped to the strong side and that may be a much better spot for him.   He reportedly had a decent game against Philly.    But he may be the replacement for Walden in a year.    So, while a disappointment so far,  he may be salvageable.

 

I think we'll all have a better read on these guys in 6 months.

[crazycolt1]

I wasn't actually asking for a list. I was mocking the list I knew someone like,you would make. Duh

So you feel the need to mock a list of the good things Grigson has done? Like I said, typical you. Duh.

[bababooey]

Why I think he is a top-10 GM:

1. He walked into a very difficult situation in 2012. The cap situation was a disaster and he handled it with ease.

2. He made tough personnel decisions right away, turning over the roster and electing to let many players walk, while keeping guys like Wayne and Mathis.

3. Yes, he had the fortune of drafting Luck, but he also made bold decisions to draft Fleener and Allen, back-to-back TEs. He moved up to draft T.Y. Hilton and looked to Canada to find a starting LB.

4. He has never had a losing season here and if you compare the roster today to the roster in 2012, you will see vast improvement.

5. Unlike other GMs, (Reese, K. Colbert, Schnieder) Grigson has not had back-to-back losing seasons and has not had the luxury of building a team with high draft picks in successive years. Seattle was a mess in 2010 and 2011. Pittsburgh had a couple of average years in 2012, 2013 (8-8) and the Giants had a rough time in 2012 and 2013. It's easy to rank GMs with high draft picks over a guy that continuously picks late in the 20's. The one time he did have a high draft picks, he hit a home run.

The drop off in value between 1st pick, to 2nd pick, to sixth pick in your average draft is astronomical. I can understand if we picked Vernon Gohlston at 5 but people comparing using a late 20s pick Werner and acting like all first round picks are the same is a joke.

[Dustin]

Loadholt had a good 2013, a bad and injury filled 2014 (just like Cherilus), and now is making $5m on IR in 2015. For $6.25m/year, since 2013, the same year Cherilus was signed.

Cherilus wasn't a good signing, and I'm not defending it. But let's stop acting like Grigson broke the bank on him.

Ugh why would we stop that when that's exactly what he did?

[Valpo2004]

I'd maybe put him as average.  He's a gambler and some of his gambles pay off and some don't.

 

I just don't think he is top 10.  Too many of his moves have failed catastrophically.  

 

And catastrophic is the proper term especially when it comes to Trent.  The guy is going to in the future be regarded as one of the worst draft busts in NFL history and he dropped a 1st rounder to trade for him.

 

While this mistake shouldn't be the only thing we look at between Werner and Trent those are some pretty high priced mistakes.  

[wig]

Eddie Goldman wasn't drafted in the first round. Malcom Brown was supposed to be a top 20 pick, and dropped to #32. Lots of teams thought the same thing. For what little it's worth, I wasn't thrilled with either of them. Good prospects, but I didn't think either was worthy of #29.

 

Exactly.  Brown specifically, when I watched his tape I couldn't for the life of me figure out why everyone was so high on him.  Apparently this was the same thought as 31 other GMs that could have taken him before NE.

 

But, according to 21, they're all dumb.

[Superman]

Ugh why would we stop that when that's exactly what he did?

$6.9m/yr isn't breaking the bank. You only say that because it's league high, but it's a non premium position. If we make Matt Overton the highest paid long snapper, that doesn't mean we broke the bank.

Stop making me defend the Cherilus deal.

[Dustin]

$6.9m/yr isn't breaking the bank. You only say that because it's league high, but it's a non premium position. If we make Matt Overton the highest paid long snapper, that doesn't mean we broke the bank.

 

I think you know this isn't a good comparison.

 

Whether or not you want to use some arbitrary number to define "breaking the bank", Cherilus still had a significant cap hit and was one of the 2-3 highest paid players on the team and was paid much more than his past play or even future projections (considering he was coming off of micro-fracture surgery) warranted. 

[NFLfan]

Joseph had a better year in 2014, primarily because Jones got hurt early. But the actual point is that they paid a premium for a so-so free agent (and I said that when they signed him), just like we did. I'm not saying that Jones is better than Joseph, although I think he is. We'll see about that....

You seem to feel compelled to defend your GM, and I just want you to know, that's not necessary. I was trying to point out that there's a bit of a double standard around here when it comes to Ryan Grigson. We micro-analyze everything he does, to the exclusion of the big picture. And we strip him of credit where it's deserved (IMO), and then magnify the blemishes, as if other GMs don't have black marks on their record also. Even the very respectable Rick Spielman, who I said I think is good. I'm not trying to cut him down, at all.

Joseph was hurt too. He was shot in the leg last summer. That kept him out for much of training camp but he still played in 16 regular season games. He looks great this year. We will see who plays better in 2015.

I feel compelled to defend my team's GM no more than you feel compelled to defend yours, especially when you are using Spielman's moves to defend Grigson. But I do get what you're trying to convey, though the examples you use are a bit misleading.

Loadholt had a good 2013, a bad and injury filled 2014 (just like Cherilus), and now is making $5m on IR in 2015. For $6.25m/year, since 2013, the same year Cherilus was signed.

The Colts signing Cherilus is not nearly the same as the Vikes re-signing Loadholt. Loadholt was a better player. But more importantly, we paid him more to retain a player that we valued. I support my GM paying more for our own player to maintain continuity. That is why I also like Ted Thompson. He places greater value on keeping his own players over paying for other teams' free agents.

Also, I disagree with how you described Loadholt as having had a "bad" 2014. He was having a very good year and played in about 10-11 games before he went on IR. Yes, he is on IR this year but thankfully the Vikes drafted 3 offensive tackles. Hopefully Clemmings or someone else can step up.